External HDD on USB 2 errors....

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Max Burke, Aug 5, 2004.

  1. Max Burke

    Max Burke Guest

    Just installed an 120Gb external HDD through a USB 2 card in a PCI slot.

    I can do backups to the drive either by dragging, copying, and with XP's
    NTBackup program. Running Chkdsk shows no file system errors or formatting
    errors.
    Disk management shows the 3 partitions set up on the drive are healthy.

    IOW It's all running OK with no conflicts with the MBO USB 1.1 ports except
    for the following error messages in the system folder of the event viewer
    when shutting down XP.

    Error messages.
    ============
    Event Type: Warning
    Event Source: Ftdisk
    Event Category: Disk
    Event ID: 57
    Date: 5/08/2004
    Time: 8:21:29 p.m.
    User: N/A
    Computer: CRAY1000
    Description:
    The system failed to flush data to the transaction log. Corruption may
    occur.

    For more information, see Help and Support Center at
    http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.

    [And:]

    Event Type: Warning
    Event Source: Disk
    Event Category: None
    Event ID: 51
    Date: 5/08/2004
    Time: 8:21:29 p.m.
    User: N/A
    Computer: CRAY1000
    Description:
    An error was detected on device \Device\Harddisk2\D during a paging
    operation.

    For more information, see Help and Support Center at
    http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.

    [and occasionally]

    Event Type: Warning
    Event Source: Ntfs
    Event Category: None
    Event ID: 50
    Date: 4/08/2004
    Time: 11:56:15 p.m.
    User: N/A
    Computer: CRAY1000
    Description:
    {Delayed Write Failed} Windows was unable to save all the data for the file
    .. The data has been lost. This error may be caused by a failure of your
    computer hardware or network connection. Please try to save this file
    elsewhere.

    For more information, see Help and Support Center at
    http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
    ===============

    From the links in these error messages it could possibly be a timing
    problem. (XP cant write a file to the drive in time, or is writing it too
    fast)

    I currently have system restore monitoring the drive/partitions, could this
    be the file(s) that XP is trying to write to the drive on shutdown?

    Is it a good Idea to have system restore monitoring an external drive?

    Hardware details.
    The HD is a Seagate Barracuda 7200rpm 120Gb drive with an 8Mb cache
    installed in an ICT USB 2 external drive case..
    The USB 2 card is an NEC 4 port USB 2/PCI card.

    XP starts up and shuts down OK, with no delays...
    I'm running XPH with SP1, and current with all updates.

    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Aug 5, 2004
    #1
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  2. Max Burke

    Bok Guest

    Max Burke wrote:
    > Just installed an 120Gb external HDD through a USB 2 card in a PCI slot.
    >
    > I can do backups to the drive either by dragging, copying, and with XP's
    > NTBackup program. Running Chkdsk shows no file system errors or formatting
    > errors.
    > Disk management shows the 3 partitions set up on the drive are healthy.
    >
    > IOW It's all running OK with no conflicts with the MBO USB 1.1 ports except
    > for the following error messages in the system folder of the event viewer
    > when shutting down XP.


    Hi Max,

    The event 57, 51 and 50 errors are the type of errors encountered when
    an NTFS volume goes offline without being cleanly unmounted. The
    potential for data loss is no worse than powering off (or resetting)
    with outstanding cached writes.

    I have a 40GB Hitachi drive in an external USB 2 case. I have tended to
    stop the device from the 'Safely Remove Hardware' dialog before shutting
    down windows (XP / 2k).

    I just tested a shutdown from XP *without* manually stopping the device
    and on restart there were no ftdisk or NTFS errors in the event log.

    I then restarted, copied some files to the external disk and pulled out
    the USB cable without first stopping the device. This time I got both
    the event 57 and 50 errors logged.

    I'm not sure why shutdown is different in your case, but stopping the
    device manually might provide a workaround.

    cheers
     
    Bok, Aug 5, 2004
    #2
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  3. Max Burke

    Max Burke Guest

    > Bok scribbled:

    >> Max Burke wrote:
    >> Just installed an 120Gb external HDD through a USB 2 card in a PCI
    >> slot.
    >> I can do backups to the drive either by dragging, copying, and with
    >> XP's NTBackup program. Running Chkdsk shows no file system errors
    >> or formatting errors.
    >> Disk management shows the 3 partitions set up on the drive are
    >> healthy.
    >> IOW It's all running OK with no conflicts with the MBO USB 1.1 ports
    >> except for the following error messages in the system folder of the
    >> event viewer when shutting down XP.


    > Hi Max,
    > The event 57, 51 and 50 errors are the type of errors encountered when
    > an NTFS volume goes offline without being cleanly unmounted. The
    > potential for data loss is no worse than powering off (or resetting)
    > with outstanding cached writes.
    > I have a 40GB Hitachi drive in an external USB 2 case. I have tended
    > to stop the device from the 'Safely Remove Hardware' dialog before
    > shutting down windows (XP / 2k).
    > I just tested a shutdown from XP *without* manually stopping the
    > device and on restart there were no ftdisk or NTFS errors in the
    > event log.


    > I then restarted, copied some files to the external disk and pulled
    > out the USB cable without first stopping the device. This time I got
    > both the event 57 and 50 errors logged.
    > I'm not sure why shutdown is different in your case, but stopping the
    > device manually might provide a workaround.


    I tried that once, but might try some more experimenting....
    Is there any way that stopping the drive can be automated?

    XP had automatically turned on indexing for the external drives, so I have
    turned that off.
    Having system restore on or off on the drive makes no difference, I get the
    error messages with or without it.


    Thanks for the suggestions....

    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Aug 5, 2004
    #3
  4. Max Burke

    GraB Guest

    I read somewhere that with drives with 8meg caches on fast computers,
    they shut down too fast so that cache data doesn't get written back
    before shutdown. There is a patch for this to hinder shutdown
    slightly.

    On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 22:23:04 +1200, "Max Burke" <>
    wrote:

    >Just installed an 120Gb external HDD through a USB 2 card in a PCI slot.
    >
    >I can do backups to the drive either by dragging, copying, and with XP's
    >NTBackup program. Running Chkdsk shows no file system errors or formatting
    >errors.
    >Disk management shows the 3 partitions set up on the drive are healthy.
    >
    >IOW It's all running OK with no conflicts with the MBO USB 1.1 ports except
    >for the following error messages in the system folder of the event viewer
    >when shutting down XP.
    >
    >Error messages.
    >============
    >Event Type: Warning
    >Event Source: Ftdisk
    >Event Category: Disk
    >Event ID: 57
    >Date: 5/08/2004
    >Time: 8:21:29 p.m.
    >User: N/A
    >Computer: CRAY1000
    >Description:
    >The system failed to flush data to the transaction log. Corruption may
    >occur.
    >
    >For more information, see Help and Support Center at
    >http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
    >
    >[And:]
    >
    >Event Type: Warning
    >Event Source: Disk
    >Event Category: None
    >Event ID: 51
    >Date: 5/08/2004
    >Time: 8:21:29 p.m.
    >User: N/A
    >Computer: CRAY1000
    >Description:
    >An error was detected on device \Device\Harddisk2\D during a paging
    >operation.
    >
    >For more information, see Help and Support Center at
    >http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
    >
    >[and occasionally]
    >
    >Event Type: Warning
    >Event Source: Ntfs
    >Event Category: None
    >Event ID: 50
    >Date: 4/08/2004
    >Time: 11:56:15 p.m.
    >User: N/A
    >Computer: CRAY1000
    >Description:
    >{Delayed Write Failed} Windows was unable to save all the data for the file
    >. The data has been lost. This error may be caused by a failure of your
    >computer hardware or network connection. Please try to save this file
    >elsewhere.
    >
    >For more information, see Help and Support Center at
    >http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
    >===============
    >
    >From the links in these error messages it could possibly be a timing
    >problem. (XP cant write a file to the drive in time, or is writing it too
    >fast)
    >
    >I currently have system restore monitoring the drive/partitions, could this
    >be the file(s) that XP is trying to write to the drive on shutdown?
    >
    >Is it a good Idea to have system restore monitoring an external drive?
    >
    >Hardware details.
    >The HD is a Seagate Barracuda 7200rpm 120Gb drive with an 8Mb cache
    >installed in an ICT USB 2 external drive case..
    >The USB 2 card is an NEC 4 port USB 2/PCI card.
    >
    >XP starts up and shuts down OK, with no delays...
    >I'm running XPH with SP1, and current with all updates.
     
    GraB, Aug 5, 2004
    #4
  5. Max Burke

    TEX Guest

    Have seen some odd problems like that with external USB cases which
    don't support large drives properly.

    TEX

    Max Burke wrote:
    > Just installed an 120Gb external HDD through a USB 2 card in a PCI slot.
    >
    > I can do backups to the drive either by dragging, copying, and with XP's
    > NTBackup program. Running Chkdsk shows no file system errors or formatting
    > errors.
    > Disk management shows the 3 partitions set up on the drive are healthy.
    >
    > IOW It's all running OK with no conflicts with the MBO USB 1.1 ports except
    > for the following error messages in the system folder of the event viewer
    > when shutting down XP.
    >
    > Error messages.
    > ============
    > Event Type: Warning
    > Event Source: Ftdisk
    > Event Category: Disk
    > Event ID: 57
    > Date: 5/08/2004
    > Time: 8:21:29 p.m.
    > User: N/A
    > Computer: CRAY1000
    > Description:
    > The system failed to flush data to the transaction log. Corruption may
    > occur.
    >
    > For more information, see Help and Support Center at
    > http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
    >
    > [And:]
    >
    > Event Type: Warning
    > Event Source: Disk
    > Event Category: None
    > Event ID: 51
    > Date: 5/08/2004
    > Time: 8:21:29 p.m.
    > User: N/A
    > Computer: CRAY1000
    > Description:
    > An error was detected on device \Device\Harddisk2\D during a paging
    > operation.
    >
    > For more information, see Help and Support Center at
    > http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
    >
    > [and occasionally]
    >
    > Event Type: Warning
    > Event Source: Ntfs
    > Event Category: None
    > Event ID: 50
    > Date: 4/08/2004
    > Time: 11:56:15 p.m.
    > User: N/A
    > Computer: CRAY1000
    > Description:
    > {Delayed Write Failed} Windows was unable to save all the data for the file
    > . The data has been lost. This error may be caused by a failure of your
    > computer hardware or network connection. Please try to save this file
    > elsewhere.
    >
    > For more information, see Help and Support Center at
    > http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
    > ===============
    >
    > From the links in these error messages it could possibly be a timing
    > problem. (XP cant write a file to the drive in time, or is writing it too
    > fast)
    >
    > I currently have system restore monitoring the drive/partitions, could this
    > be the file(s) that XP is trying to write to the drive on shutdown?
    >
    > Is it a good Idea to have system restore monitoring an external drive?
    >
    > Hardware details.
    > The HD is a Seagate Barracuda 7200rpm 120Gb drive with an 8Mb cache
    > installed in an ICT USB 2 external drive case..
    > The USB 2 card is an NEC 4 port USB 2/PCI card.
    >
    > XP starts up and shuts down OK, with no delays...
    > I'm running XPH with SP1, and current with all updates.
    >
     
    TEX, Aug 5, 2004
    #5
  6. Max Burke

    bok Guest

    GraB wrote:
    > I read somewhere that with drives with 8meg caches on fast computers,
    > they shut down too fast so that cache data doesn't get written back
    > before shutdown. There is a patch for this to hinder shutdown
    > slightly.


    That's a different problem. The event 57 and 51 errors refer to
    potential lost writes from system cache (main memory) rather than disk
    controller cache.

    Event 57 refers to a delayed write from cache to the NTFS journal.

    Event 51 refers to the potential lost write of data or meta data from
    system cache by the so called 'lazy writer' thread, which asynchronously
    flushes modified blocks from system cache.
     
    bok, Aug 5, 2004
    #6
  7. Max Burke

    bok Guest

    Max Burke wrote:
    >>I then restarted, copied some files to the external disk and pulled
    >>out the USB cable without first stopping the device. This time I got
    >>both the event 57 and 50 errors logged.
    >>I'm not sure why shutdown is different in your case, but stopping the
    >>device manually might provide a workaround.

    >
    >
    > I tried that once, but might try some more experimenting....
    > Is there any way that stopping the drive can be automated?


    I would expect it to be automatically stopped as part of the windows
    shutdown process. It seems this is working in my case, otherwise I would
    encounter similar issues to those you reported.
     
    bok, Aug 5, 2004
    #7
  8. Max Burke

    Dave Taylor Guest

    bok <> wrote in news:4112a95f$:

    > Max Burke wrote:
    >>>I then restarted, copied some files to the external disk and pulled
    >>>out the USB cable without first stopping the device. This time I got
    >>>both the event 57 and 50 errors logged.
    >>>I'm not sure why shutdown is different in your case, but stopping the
    >>>device manually might provide a workaround.

    >>
    >>
    >> I tried that once, but might try some more experimenting....
    >> Is there any way that stopping the drive can be automated?

    >
    > I would expect it to be automatically stopped as part of the windows
    > shutdown process. It seems this is working in my case, otherwise I would
    > encounter similar issues to those you reported.


    Disable write behind caching for the drive, see if the errors go away.
    Ciao, Dave
     
    Dave Taylor, Aug 6, 2004
    #8
  9. Max Burke

    Max Burke Guest

    > Dave Taylor scribbled:
    > Disable write behind caching for the drive, see if the errors go away.


    Already done; Makes no difference. It's one of the first things I looked
    at.... :-(




    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Aug 6, 2004
    #9
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