EOS 5D + extender 1.4 + 100-400 IS L: Will AF work?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Lucas, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Lucas

    Lucas Guest

    Hi all!

    At some rare occasions I could use some extra "reach" on my 5D with
    100-400mm IS L. I probably got a little pampered with the extra "reach" on
    my EOS Rebel (1.6 factor).
    So I was thinking of buying an EF 1.4x II extender.

    By now I found (if I read everything correctly):
    5D-manual: central AF-point will work with lenses with maximum aperture of
    5.6 and larger
    100-400-manual: AF with extender will not work (at all), IS will, MF is
    always possible
    Website Canon USA: the extender can be used on the 100-400

    Since I got a little confused about the AF-thing, I called Canon Support
    Europe (I live in Holland). The nice lady on the telephone was unable to
    help me: "nothing in my books about an EOS 5D: camera is too recent; the
    lens with extender will AF on EOS-1-series bodies though". Sorry, I don't
    own any 1-series.

    BTW: I will not invest in expensive prime telephoto-lenses: for the rare
    occasion they will be used, for me it is not wise to invest in those.

    Any help?

    Thanks!

    Lucas
     
    Lucas, Jan 3, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Lucas

    Aad Guest

    "Lucas" <> schreef in bericht
    news:43baa48d$0$805$...
    > Hi all!
    >
    > At some rare occasions I could use some extra "reach" on my 5D with
    > 100-400mm IS L. I probably got a little pampered with the extra "reach" on
    > my EOS Rebel (1.6 factor).
    > So I was thinking of buying an EF 1.4x II extender.
    >
    > By now I found (if I read everything correctly):
    > 5D-manual: central AF-point will work with lenses with maximum aperture of
    > 5.6 and larger
    > 100-400-manual: AF with extender will not work (at all), IS will, MF is
    > always possible
    > Website Canon USA: the extender can be used on the 100-400
    >
    > Since I got a little confused about the AF-thing, I called Canon Support
    > Europe (I live in Holland). The nice lady on the telephone was unable to
    > help me: "nothing in my books about an EOS 5D: camera is too recent; the
    > lens with extender will AF on EOS-1-series bodies though". Sorry, I don't
    > own any 1-series.
    >
    > BTW: I will not invest in expensive prime telephoto-lenses: for the rare
    > occasion they will be used, for me it is not wise to invest in those.
    >
    > Any help?
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    > Lucas
    >
    >

    Why don't you drop by at that nice oldfashioned shop around the corner and
    just try it?
    Or will you 'zit voor een dubbeltje op de eerste rang'? (thats Dutch)
    Aad
     
    Aad, Jan 3, 2006
    #2
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  3. Lucas

    This old Bob Guest

    I thought only the 1D and 1DS could AF with a max aperture of f/8.0.
     
    This old Bob, Jan 3, 2006
    #3
  4. Lucas

    This old Bob Guest

    Sounds like you answered your own question: Max aperture is f/5.6 on the 5D
    so the 100-400 with not AF with the Canon extender (unless you tape over the
    pins, etc.).


    "Lucas" <> wrote in message
    news:43baa48d$0$805$...
    > Hi all!
    >
    > At some rare occasions I could use some extra "reach" on my 5D with
    > 100-400mm IS L. I probably got a little pampered with the extra "reach" on
    > my EOS Rebel (1.6 factor).
    > So I was thinking of buying an EF 1.4x II extender.
    >
    > By now I found (if I read everything correctly):
    > 5D-manual: central AF-point will work with lenses with maximum aperture of
    > 5.6 and larger
    > 100-400-manual: AF with extender will not work (at all), IS will, MF is
    > always possible
    > Website Canon USA: the extender can be used on the 100-400
    >
    > Since I got a little confused about the AF-thing, I called Canon Support
    > Europe (I live in Holland). The nice lady on the telephone was unable to
    > help me: "nothing in my books about an EOS 5D: camera is too recent; the
    > lens with extender will AF on EOS-1-series bodies though". Sorry, I don't
    > own any 1-series.
    >
    > BTW: I will not invest in expensive prime telephoto-lenses: for the rare
    > occasion they will be used, for me it is not wise to invest in those.
    >
    > Any help?
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    > Lucas
    >
    >
     
    This old Bob, Jan 3, 2006
    #4
  5. Lucas

    Lucas Guest

    "Aad" <> schreef in bericht
    news:...
    >
    > "Lucas" <> schreef in bericht
    > news:43baa48d$0$805$...
    > > Hi all!
    > >
    > > At some rare occasions I could use some extra "reach" on my 5D with
    > > 100-400mm IS L. I probably got a little pampered with the extra "reach"

    on
    > > my EOS Rebel (1.6 factor).
    > > So I was thinking of buying an EF 1.4x II extender.
    > >
    > > By now I found (if I read everything correctly):
    > > 5D-manual: central AF-point will work with lenses with maximum aperture

    of
    > > 5.6 and larger
    > > 100-400-manual: AF with extender will not work (at all), IS will, MF is
    > > always possible
    > > Website Canon USA: the extender can be used on the 100-400
    > >
    > > Since I got a little confused about the AF-thing, I called Canon Support
    > > Europe (I live in Holland). The nice lady on the telephone was unable to
    > > help me: "nothing in my books about an EOS 5D: camera is too recent; the
    > > lens with extender will AF on EOS-1-series bodies though". Sorry, I

    don't
    > > own any 1-series.
    > >
    > > BTW: I will not invest in expensive prime telephoto-lenses: for the rare
    > > occasion they will be used, for me it is not wise to invest in those.
    > >
    > > Any help?
    > >
    > > Thanks!
    > >
    > > Lucas
    > >
    > >

    > Why don't you drop by at that nice oldfashioned shop around the corner and
    > just try it?
    > Or will you 'zit voor een dubbeltje op de eerste rang'? (thats Dutch)
    > Aad
    >
    >


    Aad,

    In my part of the country (Postal Area 45xx, Dutchmen know where this is) no
    shop has the extender in stock (I checked!), so I would have to travel to a
    nearby bigger city, travel at least one hour single trip, take some time to
    test, return home, cost me half a day. Therefore, since there is no
    "oldfashioned shop around the corner" I thought Usenet would be more
    practical.
    Moreover, not many dealers allow new items that are not sold in numbers to
    be tested, certainly not on customers' camera's. Even the tiniest scratch on
    the mount degrades the value: item is not new anymore. It seems you are
    Dutch as well, you should know how this works over here...

    I do not want to "sit first row for a dime" as you so eloquently stated in
    Dutch, just want to be practical.
    Maybe someone else can answer my question.

    Thanks

    Lucas
     
    Lucas, Jan 3, 2006
    #5
  6. Lucas

    Lucas Guest

    Bob,

    I would expect you are right, I just got confused by other information from
    Canon, and no real help from their Customer Service. Just want to be sure
    about things, hence my posting.

    Lucas



    "This old Bob" <> schreef in bericht
    news:43baac77$0$58093$...
    > Sounds like you answered your own question: Max aperture is f/5.6 on the

    5D
    > so the 100-400 with not AF with the Canon extender (unless you tape over

    the
    > pins, etc.).
    >
    >
    > "Lucas" <> wrote in message
    > news:43baa48d$0$805$...
    > > Hi all!
    > >
    > > At some rare occasions I could use some extra "reach" on my 5D with
    > > 100-400mm IS L. I probably got a little pampered with the extra "reach"

    on
    > > my EOS Rebel (1.6 factor).
    > > So I was thinking of buying an EF 1.4x II extender.
    > >
    > > By now I found (if I read everything correctly):
    > > 5D-manual: central AF-point will work with lenses with maximum aperture

    of
    > > 5.6 and larger
    > > 100-400-manual: AF with extender will not work (at all), IS will, MF is
    > > always possible
    > > Website Canon USA: the extender can be used on the 100-400
    > >
    > > Since I got a little confused about the AF-thing, I called Canon Support
    > > Europe (I live in Holland). The nice lady on the telephone was unable to
    > > help me: "nothing in my books about an EOS 5D: camera is too recent; the
    > > lens with extender will AF on EOS-1-series bodies though". Sorry, I

    don't
    > > own any 1-series.
    > >
    > > BTW: I will not invest in expensive prime telephoto-lenses: for the rare
    > > occasion they will be used, for me it is not wise to invest in those.
    > >
    > > Any help?
    > >
    > > Thanks!
    > >
    > > Lucas
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Lucas, Jan 3, 2006
    #6
  7. Lucas

    Bill Hilton Guest

    The EOS-3 film body will AF (center sensor only) with min aperture of
    f/8, as will the 1V, while the Elan and Rebel consumer film bodies will
    only AF at f/5.6 ... I *think* the 5D is built off the EOS-3 body so if
    that's true then the 5D should indeed hold AF at f/8 (ie, with the
    100-400 and a 1.4x t/c). For sure my 1Ds and 1D M II bodies work at
    f/8 (I shoot a 500 f/4 w/ 2x all the time) and the 10D my wife has
    won't AF at f/8 (built off the Elan film body), so I'm guessing the 5D
    will act like the EOS-3 ...

    I don't have one so can't try it, maybe someone like Skip M can check
    this ...

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, Jan 3, 2006
    #7
  8. Lucas

    This old Bob Guest

    Ask in the 5D forum on www.dpreview.com

    "Lucas" <> wrote in message
    news:43bad238$0$805$...
    > Bob,
    >
    > I would expect you are right, I just got confused by other information
    > from
    > Canon, and no real help from their Customer Service. Just want to be sure
    > about things, hence my posting.
    >
    > Lucas
    >
    >
    >
    > "This old Bob" <> schreef in bericht
    > news:43baac77$0$58093$...
    >> Sounds like you answered your own question: Max aperture is f/5.6 on the

    > 5D
    >> so the 100-400 with not AF with the Canon extender (unless you tape over

    > the
    >> pins, etc.).
    >>
    >>
    >> "Lucas" <> wrote in message
    >> news:43baa48d$0$805$...
    >> > Hi all!
    >> >
    >> > At some rare occasions I could use some extra "reach" on my 5D with
    >> > 100-400mm IS L. I probably got a little pampered with the extra "reach"

    > on
    >> > my EOS Rebel (1.6 factor).
    >> > So I was thinking of buying an EF 1.4x II extender.
    >> >
    >> > By now I found (if I read everything correctly):
    >> > 5D-manual: central AF-point will work with lenses with maximum aperture

    > of
    >> > 5.6 and larger
    >> > 100-400-manual: AF with extender will not work (at all), IS will, MF is
    >> > always possible
    >> > Website Canon USA: the extender can be used on the 100-400
    >> >
    >> > Since I got a little confused about the AF-thing, I called Canon
    >> > Support
    >> > Europe (I live in Holland). The nice lady on the telephone was unable
    >> > to
    >> > help me: "nothing in my books about an EOS 5D: camera is too recent;
    >> > the
    >> > lens with extender will AF on EOS-1-series bodies though". Sorry, I

    > don't
    >> > own any 1-series.
    >> >
    >> > BTW: I will not invest in expensive prime telephoto-lenses: for the
    >> > rare
    >> > occasion they will be used, for me it is not wise to invest in those.
    >> >
    >> > Any help?
    >> >
    >> > Thanks!
    >> >
    >> > Lucas
    >> >
    >> >

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    This old Bob, Jan 3, 2006
    #8
  9. Lucas

    This old Bob Guest

    "Bill Hilton" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > The EOS-3 film body will AF (center sensor only) with min aperture of
    > f/8, as will the 1V, while the Elan and Rebel consumer film bodies will
    > only AF at f/5.6 ... I *think* the 5D is built off the EOS-3 body so if
    > that's true then the 5D should indeed hold AF at f/8 (ie, with the
    > 100-400 and a 1.4x t/c). For sure my 1Ds and 1D M II bodies work at
    > f/8 (I shoot a 500 f/4 w/ 2x all the time) and the 10D my wife has
    > won't AF at f/8 (built off the Elan film body), so I'm guessing the 5D
    > will act like the EOS-3 ...
    >


    Yes. Well, not only is the 5D not 1-series camera, but it's not even a 3
    either. :)
     
    This old Bob, Jan 3, 2006
    #9
  10. Lucas

    Gormless Guest

    "Lucas" <> wrote in message
    news:43baa48d$0$805$...
    > Hi all!
    >
    > At some rare occasions I could use some extra "reach" on my 5D with
    > 100-400mm IS L. I probably got a little pampered with the extra "reach" on
    > my EOS Rebel (1.6 factor).


    Well, by that logic all you have to do is crop the 5D pics in PhotoShop by
    the equivalent of a 1.6 factor and you can have your extra reach back.
     
    Gormless, Jan 3, 2006
    #10
  11. Lucas

    Skip M Guest

    "Bill Hilton" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > The EOS-3 film body will AF (center sensor only) with min aperture of
    > f/8, as will the 1V, while the Elan and Rebel consumer film bodies will
    > only AF at f/5.6 ... I *think* the 5D is built off the EOS-3 body so if
    > that's true then the 5D should indeed hold AF at f/8 (ie, with the
    > 100-400 and a 1.4x t/c). For sure my 1Ds and 1D M II bodies work at
    > f/8 (I shoot a 500 f/4 w/ 2x all the time) and the 10D my wife has
    > won't AF at f/8 (built off the Elan film body), so I'm guessing the 5D
    > will act like the EOS-3 ...
    >
    > I don't have one so can't try it, maybe someone like Skip M can check
    > this ...
    >
    > Bill
    >

    I don't have an extender, but as far as I know, it won't work with the 5D.
    It isn't built on the 3 body, it is more like the old EOS5, but not in
    construction, but like the place in the lineup. F5.6 is the max aperture
    for the 5D, according to everything I can find...

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
     
    Skip M, Jan 4, 2006
    #11
  12. In article <4EFuf.4402$sA3.2238@fed1read02> "Skip M" <> writes:
    $I don't have an extender, but as far as I know, it won't work with the 5D.

    Officially correct. Unofficially, YMMV; see below.

    $It isn't built on the 3 body,

    Correct. And its AF system is derived from that of the 20D, which
    shares its f/5.6 limitation, as do all other Canon bodies with
    fewer than 45 AF points.

    If you use the 100-400 and Canon's 1.4x, the body will know your
    lens is too slow for AF, and the AF system will not be active.

    If you use a third-party TC which doesn't signal its presence to
    the lens, or if you tape over the three extra contacts (either on the
    lens or on the Canon TC) which are used for the TC to let the lens
    know it's there, the body will still think you have a 100-400/4.5-5.6
    lens, and the AF system will remain enabled. Now, since you're using
    it in a situation for which it was not designed, it may or may not
    work; don't be surprised if it's unreliable, particularly in low
    light or with low-contrast targets.
    --
    Stephen M. Dunn <>
    >>>----------------> http://www.stevedunn.ca/ <----------------<<<

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Say hi to my cat -- http://www.stevedunn.ca/photos/toby/
     
    Stephen M. Dunn, Jan 4, 2006
    #12
  13. Lucas

    Mark² Guest

    Bill Hilton wrote:
    > The EOS-3 film body will AF (center sensor only) with min aperture of
    > f/8, as will the 1V, while the Elan and Rebel consumer film bodies
    > will only AF at f/5.6 ... I *think* the 5D is built off the EOS-3
    > body so if that's true then the 5D should indeed hold AF at f/8 (ie,
    > with the 100-400 and a 1.4x t/c). For sure my 1Ds and 1D M II bodies
    > work at f/8 (I shoot a 500 f/4 w/ 2x all the time) and the 10D my
    > wife has won't AF at f/8 (built off the Elan film body), so I'm
    > guessing the 5D will act like the EOS-3 ...
    >
    > I don't have one so can't try it, maybe someone like Skip M can check
    > this ...
    >
    > Bill


    I don't think the 5D takes after the 3, and I don't think it focuses beyond
    5.6.
    In fact, I'll put $100 on that...save for the taped-contacts trick...
    It's really more like a thicker Elan or 20D than the much larger 3 in terms
    of build/body design anyway, as far as I can tell... But I don't own it! :)
     
    Mark², Jan 4, 2006
    #13
  14. Lucas

    Lucas Guest

    Thanks all for the input; the best info came from 'This old Bob": checking
    the 5D forum on www.dpreview.com.
    There I found all the answers I needed. Thanks Bob!

    Lucas
     
    Lucas, Jan 4, 2006
    #14
  15. Lucas

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >Skip Middleton writes ...
    >
    >I don't have an extender, but as far as I know, it won't work with the 5D.
    >It isn't built on the 3 body, it is more like the old EOS5, but not in
    >construction, but like the place in the lineup. F5.6 is the max aperture
    >for the 5D, according to everything I can find...


    Wow, no 45 point AF and no f/8 center sensor AF ... think I'll pass on
    ever getting one of those :) I've become addicted to those features
    using the EOS-3 and the 1Ds and 1D M II dSLRs ...

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, Jan 4, 2006
    #15
  16. Lucas

    MSpn Guest

    "Lucas" <> wrote in message
    news:43bad171$0$808$...
    >
    > "Aad" <> schreef in bericht
    > news:...
    >>
    >> "Lucas" <> schreef in bericht
    >> news:43baa48d$0$805$...
    >> > Hi all!
    >> >
    >> > At some rare occasions I could use some extra "reach" on my 5D with
    >> > 100-400mm IS L. I probably got a little pampered with the extra "reach"

    > on
    >> > my EOS Rebel (1.6 factor).
    >> > So I was thinking of buying an EF 1.4x II extender.
    >> >
    >> > By now I found (if I read everything correctly):
    >> > 5D-manual: central AF-point will work with lenses with maximum aperture

    > of
    >> > 5.6 and larger
    >> > 100-400-manual: AF with extender will not work (at all), IS will, MF is
    >> > always possible
    >> > Website Canon USA: the extender can be used on the 100-400
    >> >
    >> > Since I got a little confused about the AF-thing, I called Canon
    >> > Support
    >> > Europe (I live in Holland). The nice lady on the telephone was unable
    >> > to
    >> > help me: "nothing in my books about an EOS 5D: camera is too recent;
    >> > the
    >> > lens with extender will AF on EOS-1-series bodies though". Sorry, I

    > don't
    >> > own any 1-series.
    >> >
    >> > BTW: I will not invest in expensive prime telephoto-lenses: for the
    >> > rare
    >> > occasion they will be used, for me it is not wise to invest in those.
    >> >
    >> > Any help?
    >> >
    >> > Thanks!
    >> >
    >> > Lucas
    >> >
    >> >

    >> Why don't you drop by at that nice oldfashioned shop around the corner
    >> and
    >> just try it?
    >> Or will you 'zit voor een dubbeltje op de eerste rang'? (thats Dutch)
    >> Aad
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Aad,
    >
    > In my part of the country (Postal Area 45xx, Dutchmen know where this is)
    > no
    > shop has the extender in stock (I checked!), so I would have to travel to
    > a
    > nearby bigger city, travel at least one hour single trip, take some time
    > to
    > test, return home, cost me half a day. Therefore, since there is no
    > "oldfashioned shop around the corner" I thought Usenet would be more
    > practical.
    > Moreover, not many dealers allow new items that are not sold in numbers to
    > be tested, certainly not on customers' camera's. Even the tiniest scratch
    > on
    > the mount degrades the value: item is not new anymore. It seems you are
    > Dutch as well, you should know how this works over here...
    >
    > I do not want to "sit first row for a dime" as you so eloquently stated in
    > Dutch, just want to be practical.
    > Maybe someone else can answer my question.
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    > Lucas
    >


    I happen to live in the same country. You can travel half the country in one
    hour. How do you travel ? By bike ?

    je overdrijft.
     
    MSpn, Jan 4, 2006
    #16
  17. Lucas

    Lucas Guest

    "MSpn" <> schreef in bericht
    news:43bbea78$0$11075$4all.nl...
    >
    > "Lucas" <> wrote in message
    > news:43bad171$0$808$...
    > >
    > > "Aad" <> schreef in bericht
    > > news:...
    > >>
    > >> "Lucas" <> schreef in bericht
    > >> news:43baa48d$0$805$...
    > >> > Hi all!
    > >> >
    > >> > At some rare occasions I could use some extra "reach" on my 5D with
    > >> > 100-400mm IS L. I probably got a little pampered with the extra

    "reach"
    > > on
    > >> > my EOS Rebel (1.6 factor).
    > >> > So I was thinking of buying an EF 1.4x II extender.
    > >> >
    > >> > By now I found (if I read everything correctly):
    > >> > 5D-manual: central AF-point will work with lenses with maximum

    aperture
    > > of
    > >> > 5.6 and larger
    > >> > 100-400-manual: AF with extender will not work (at all), IS will, MF

    is
    > >> > always possible
    > >> > Website Canon USA: the extender can be used on the 100-400
    > >> >
    > >> > Since I got a little confused about the AF-thing, I called Canon
    > >> > Support
    > >> > Europe (I live in Holland). The nice lady on the telephone was unable
    > >> > to
    > >> > help me: "nothing in my books about an EOS 5D: camera is too recent;
    > >> > the
    > >> > lens with extender will AF on EOS-1-series bodies though". Sorry, I

    > > don't
    > >> > own any 1-series.
    > >> >
    > >> > BTW: I will not invest in expensive prime telephoto-lenses: for the
    > >> > rare
    > >> > occasion they will be used, for me it is not wise to invest in those.
    > >> >
    > >> > Any help?
    > >> >
    > >> > Thanks!
    > >> >
    > >> > Lucas
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> Why don't you drop by at that nice oldfashioned shop around the corner
    > >> and
    > >> just try it?
    > >> Or will you 'zit voor een dubbeltje op de eerste rang'? (thats Dutch)
    > >> Aad
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > > Aad,
    > >
    > > In my part of the country (Postal Area 45xx, Dutchmen know where this

    is)
    > > no
    > > shop has the extender in stock (I checked!), so I would have to travel

    to
    > > a
    > > nearby bigger city, travel at least one hour single trip, take some time
    > > to
    > > test, return home, cost me half a day. Therefore, since there is no
    > > "oldfashioned shop around the corner" I thought Usenet would be more
    > > practical.
    > > Moreover, not many dealers allow new items that are not sold in numbers

    to
    > > be tested, certainly not on customers' camera's. Even the tiniest

    scratch
    > > on
    > > the mount degrades the value: item is not new anymore. It seems you are
    > > Dutch as well, you should know how this works over here...
    > >
    > > I do not want to "sit first row for a dime" as you so eloquently stated

    in
    > > Dutch, just want to be practical.
    > > Maybe someone else can answer my question.
    > >
    > > Thanks
    > >
    > > Lucas
    > >

    >
    > I happen to live in the same country. You can travel half the country in

    one
    > hour. How do you travel ? By bike ?
    >
    > je overdrijft.
    >
    >


    Dutch: Ik drijf niet over!

    From my place the nearest bigger city would be Goes, that is 50 minutes by
    highway, and then I still would need to find a parking space somewhere. When
    using public transport it would take 1 hour and 25 minutes. I can always try
    going the other way, into Belgium, but that would take 55 minutes plus.
    Do you really live in the same country as me? Doesn't sound like it!

    Dutch again: Kom voor de gein maar eens controleren! Het is hier verdorie
    geen Randstad!

    Lucas
     
    Lucas, Jan 4, 2006
    #17
  18. Lucas

    Skip M Guest

    "Bill Hilton" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > >Skip Middleton writes ...
    >>
    >>I don't have an extender, but as far as I know, it won't work with the 5D.
    >>It isn't built on the 3 body, it is more like the old EOS5, but not in
    >>construction, but like the place in the lineup. F5.6 is the max aperture
    >>for the 5D, according to everything I can find...

    >
    > Wow, no 45 point AF and no f/8 center sensor AF ... think I'll pass on
    > ever getting one of those :) I've become addicted to those features
    > using the EOS-3 and the 1Ds and 1D M II dSLRs ...
    >
    > Bill
    >

    You don't miss what you never had. The f8 focusing came in with the 3, so
    my 1n didn't have it, nor did my A2. I'm just happy to get spot metering
    back, but it's not linkable to the focus point, so that tempers my joy a
    little. But HOOBOY, it's nice to have a fisheye work as a fisheye and a
    16mm work as a 16mm, not to mention that my 100 f2 is back in business!

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
     
    Skip M, Jan 5, 2006
    #18
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