Educational or Experience Requirements

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by Roy, Mar 7, 2004.

  1. Roy

    Roy Guest

    I feel that bootcamps and quite frankly the structure of
    the exam (prone to cheating) devalues this certification.

    I would hope that anyone entering this field without any
    prior experience or a degree in place of experience would
    not even attempt the MCSD. I wish there were either
    educational or experience requirements in order to attain
    the certification. (2-year related degree for MCAD, 4-
    year related degree for MCSD, or 4 years of proven
    experience)

    I see this industry moving to India at break neck speeds,
    and we certainly don't need more underqualified people in
    it if we want to compete.

    Roy
    Roy, Mar 7, 2004
    #1
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  2. Roy

    Jay Walters Guest

    I completely understand your point of view - you'd like
    your certification to really mean something and mirror
    the effort you put in to it.

    But unfortunately [in the big picture] certs don't mean
    anything and neither does a degree really.

    These are just tools to prove you have a certain amount
    of base knowledge and discipline.

    Both of these items will help you get to the interview
    faster. Companies use them as a tool to weed out unlikely
    candidates and the company's objective will determine
    which attributes weight the most.

    A degree from a local college in 1980 will most likely
    mean less than a .NET certification if the company is
    looking for .NET experience.

    Excluding companies that use HR to screen out applicants
    without degrees ... your work experience means the most.

    In terms of outsourcing to another country. I don't like
    it either. Certifications are subsidized and there isn't
    any interview process when outsourcing - it's only based
    on references and empty promises. But, I think it comes
    down to the old saying - "you get what you pay for". Poor
    communication, no face to face time and understanding, no
    loyalty to the company and lower productivity.

    ~ Jay


    >-----Original Message-----
    >I feel that bootcamps and quite frankly the structure of
    >the exam (prone to cheating) devalues this

    certification.
    >
    >I would hope that anyone entering this field without any
    >prior experience or a degree in place of experience

    would
    >not even attempt the MCSD. I wish there were either
    >educational or experience requirements in order to

    attain
    >the certification. (2-year related degree for MCAD, 4-
    >year related degree for MCSD, or 4 years of proven
    >experience)
    >
    >I see this industry moving to India at break neck

    speeds,
    >and we certainly don't need more underqualified people

    in
    >it if we want to compete.
    >
    >Roy
    >
    >.
    >
    Jay Walters, Mar 7, 2004
    #2
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  3. Roy

    Kumar Reddi Guest

    Sour grapes..ehh

    "Jay Walters" <> wrote in message
    news:8ce201c40479$ba4cb640$...
    > I completely understand your point of view - you'd like
    > your certification to really mean something and mirror
    > the effort you put in to it.
    >
    > But unfortunately [in the big picture] certs don't mean
    > anything and neither does a degree really.
    >
    > These are just tools to prove you have a certain amount
    > of base knowledge and discipline.
    >
    > Both of these items will help you get to the interview
    > faster. Companies use them as a tool to weed out unlikely
    > candidates and the company's objective will determine
    > which attributes weight the most.
    >
    > A degree from a local college in 1980 will most likely
    > mean less than a .NET certification if the company is
    > looking for .NET experience.
    >
    > Excluding companies that use HR to screen out applicants
    > without degrees ... your work experience means the most.
    >
    > In terms of outsourcing to another country. I don't like
    > it either. Certifications are subsidized and there isn't
    > any interview process when outsourcing - it's only based
    > on references and empty promises. But, I think it comes
    > down to the old saying - "you get what you pay for". Poor
    > communication, no face to face time and understanding, no
    > loyalty to the company and lower productivity.
    >
    > ~ Jay
    >
    >
    > >-----Original Message-----
    > >I feel that bootcamps and quite frankly the structure of
    > >the exam (prone to cheating) devalues this

    > certification.
    > >
    > >I would hope that anyone entering this field without any
    > >prior experience or a degree in place of experience

    > would
    > >not even attempt the MCSD. I wish there were either
    > >educational or experience requirements in order to

    > attain
    > >the certification. (2-year related degree for MCAD, 4-
    > >year related degree for MCSD, or 4 years of proven
    > >experience)
    > >
    > >I see this industry moving to India at break neck

    > speeds,
    > >and we certainly don't need more underqualified people

    > in
    > >it if we want to compete.
    > >
    > >Roy
    > >
    > >.
    > >
    Kumar Reddi, Mar 7, 2004
    #3
  4. Roy

    Jay Walters Guest

    -- I'm not sour about anything.

    But I think 'Roy' has just come to the realization that
    his efforts (and money) to obtain the MCSD cert won't
    match the return.

    It's just a small piece of the equation, but if you think
    about.. studying for exams [in earnest effort] will help
    round out one's knowledge [which is pretty key].

    In terms of outsourcing, it's a matter of simple
    economics. Companies may save money in the short run.
    But, by not putting money in the peoples' hands - people
    won't be able to afford their products [or services] in
    the long term.


    ~Jay


    >-----Original Message-----
    >Sour grapes..ehh
    >
    >"Jay Walters" <> wrote in

    message
    >news:8ce201c40479$ba4cb640$...
    >> I completely understand your point of view - you'd like
    >> your certification to really mean something and mirror
    >> the effort you put in to it.
    >>
    >> But unfortunately [in the big picture] certs don't mean
    >> anything and neither does a degree really.
    >>
    >> These are just tools to prove you have a certain amount
    >> of base knowledge and discipline.
    >>
    >> Both of these items will help you get to the interview
    >> faster. Companies use them as a tool to weed out

    unlikely
    >> candidates and the company's objective will determine
    >> which attributes weight the most.
    >>
    >> A degree from a local college in 1980 will most likely
    >> mean less than a .NET certification if the company is
    >> looking for .NET experience.
    >>
    >> Excluding companies that use HR to screen out

    applicants
    >> without degrees ... your work experience means the

    most.
    >>
    >> In terms of outsourcing to another country. I don't

    like
    >> it either. Certifications are subsidized and there

    isn't
    >> any interview process when outsourcing - it's only

    based
    >> on references and empty promises. But, I think it comes
    >> down to the old saying - "you get what you pay for".

    Poor
    >> communication, no face to face time and understanding,

    no
    >> loyalty to the company and lower productivity.
    >>
    >> ~ Jay
    >>
    >>
    >> >-----Original Message-----
    >> >I feel that bootcamps and quite frankly the structure

    of
    >> >the exam (prone to cheating) devalues this

    >> certification.
    >> >
    >> >I would hope that anyone entering this field without

    any
    >> >prior experience or a degree in place of experience

    >> would
    >> >not even attempt the MCSD. I wish there were either
    >> >educational or experience requirements in order to

    >> attain
    >> >the certification. (2-year related degree for MCAD,

    4-
    >> >year related degree for MCSD, or 4 years of proven
    >> >experience)
    >> >
    >> >I see this industry moving to India at break neck

    >> speeds,
    >> >and we certainly don't need more underqualified people

    >> in
    >> >it if we want to compete.
    >> >
    >> >Roy
    >> >
    >> >.
    >> >

    >
    >
    >.
    >
    Jay Walters, Mar 7, 2004
    #4
  5. Roy

    Roy Guest

    >Sour grapes..ehh

    I don't understand what you mean by sour grapes. I simply
    want a viable industry that can compete worldwide. Right
    now, we are seeing a net job loss for a variety of reasons
    I don't wish to debate. One thing that would help us
    compete globally is higher standards.

    I am frankly tired of dealing with code that looks as if
    it were designed by a grade-schooler. If developers
    understood the fundementals and programmed based upon
    standards, I wouldn't even mention this.

    I think that there are some people in this industry who
    are simply not qualified to develop software. If you
    study and apply these exams without going to a bootcamp or
    cheating, you should have the fundementals that you need
    to produce a quality product.

    -Roy

    >-----Original Message-----
    >Sour grapes..ehh
    >
    >"Jay Walters" <> wrote in

    message
    >news:8ce201c40479$ba4cb640$...
    >> I completely understand your point of view - you'd like
    >> your certification to really mean something and mirror
    >> the effort you put in to it.
    >>
    >> But unfortunately [in the big picture] certs don't mean
    >> anything and neither does a degree really.
    >>
    >> These are just tools to prove you have a certain amount
    >> of base knowledge and discipline.
    >>
    >> Both of these items will help you get to the interview
    >> faster. Companies use them as a tool to weed out

    unlikely
    >> candidates and the company's objective will determine
    >> which attributes weight the most.
    >>
    >> A degree from a local college in 1980 will most likely
    >> mean less than a .NET certification if the company is
    >> looking for .NET experience.
    >>
    >> Excluding companies that use HR to screen out applicants
    >> without degrees ... your work experience means the most.
    >>
    >> In terms of outsourcing to another country. I don't like
    >> it either. Certifications are subsidized and there isn't
    >> any interview process when outsourcing - it's only based
    >> on references and empty promises. But, I think it comes
    >> down to the old saying - "you get what you pay for".

    Poor
    >> communication, no face to face time and understanding,

    no
    >> loyalty to the company and lower productivity.
    >>
    >> ~ Jay
    >>
    >>
    >> >-----Original Message-----
    >> >I feel that bootcamps and quite frankly the structure

    of
    >> >the exam (prone to cheating) devalues this

    >> certification.
    >> >
    >> >I would hope that anyone entering this field without

    any
    >> >prior experience or a degree in place of experience

    >> would
    >> >not even attempt the MCSD. I wish there were either
    >> >educational or experience requirements in order to

    >> attain
    >> >the certification. (2-year related degree for MCAD, 4-
    >> >year related degree for MCSD, or 4 years of proven
    >> >experience)
    >> >
    >> >I see this industry moving to India at break neck

    >> speeds,
    >> >and we certainly don't need more underqualified people

    >> in
    >> >it if we want to compete.
    >> >
    >> >Roy
    >> >
    >> >.
    >> >

    >
    >
    >.
    >
    Roy, Mar 7, 2004
    #5
  6. Roy

    Guest Guest

    I think that the MCSD certification process should include some sort of
    interview by a Microsoft representative and review by a panel of license
    holders. This would help weed out some of the pretenders.


    "Roy" <> wrote in message
    news:863301c4045c$dde9dcd0$...
    > I feel that bootcamps and quite frankly the structure of
    > the exam (prone to cheating) devalues this certification.
    >
    > I would hope that anyone entering this field without any
    > prior experience or a degree in place of experience would
    > not even attempt the MCSD. I wish there were either
    > educational or experience requirements in order to attain
    > the certification. (2-year related degree for MCAD, 4-
    > year related degree for MCSD, or 4 years of proven
    > experience)
    >
    > I see this industry moving to India at break neck speeds,
    > and we certainly don't need more underqualified people in
    > it if we want to compete.
    >
    > Roy
    >
    Guest, Mar 7, 2004
    #6
  7. Roy

    Jay Walters Guest

    That isn't such a bad idea. A MSFT interview, something
    like the MCT requirements.

    The problem with educational requirements is that it
    doesn't account for self-thought developers and opens up
    arguments for certain types of degrees and certain
    schools - plus verifying the degree. [And for anyone that
    thinks they're better than a self thought
    developer "purely" on the grounds of a degree, check out
    Bill Gates.]

    Hands-on XP doesn't work at all. Companies go out of
    business while contacts and ex-bosses move on. Plus, not
    all companies [and experience] are equal.

    Nice Idea...


    >-----Original Message-----
    >I think that the MCSD certification process should

    include some sort of
    >interview by a Microsoft representative and review by a

    panel of license
    >holders. This would help weed out some of the pretenders.
    >
    >
    >"Roy" <> wrote in

    message
    >news:863301c4045c$dde9dcd0$...
    >> I feel that bootcamps and quite frankly the structure

    of
    >> the exam (prone to cheating) devalues this

    certification.
    >>
    >> I would hope that anyone entering this field without

    any
    >> prior experience or a degree in place of experience

    would
    >> not even attempt the MCSD. I wish there were either
    >> educational or experience requirements in order to

    attain
    >> the certification. (2-year related degree for MCAD, 4-
    >> year related degree for MCSD, or 4 years of proven
    >> experience)
    >>
    >> I see this industry moving to India at break neck

    speeds,
    >> and we certainly don't need more underqualified people

    in
    >> it if we want to compete.
    >>
    >> Roy
    >>

    >
    >
    >.
    >
    Jay Walters, Mar 7, 2004
    #7
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