Edge Enhancement Questions?

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Peter Mason, Oct 7, 2003.

  1. Peter Mason

    Peter Mason Guest

    I have just been reading quite an interesting article about Edge
    Enhancement
    on www.videophile.info "Ultimate Guide to Edge Enhancement" by
    Bjoern
    Roy. He states on page 5 of the article:

    "Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    it.
    I don't mean little, I mean NONE. Nor is the image low-pass filtered
    in any
    form, resulting in hefty interlace flicker(rails...) on non-scaled
    displays,
    but incredible detail(even for a non-anamorphic transfer) on high end
    systems.
    If the transfer was anamorphic,this would probably be the defacto
    standard as
    to what can be done with DVD."

    He further states at about page 9(second last page of the article)
    that transfers are low-pass filterd to prevent hefty flickering and
    aliasing on
    interlaced display. Since he states that Titanic is not low-pass
    filtered nor edge-enhanced would this mean that there would be quite
    noticeable flickering and aliasing when viewed on a normal interlace
    TV?

    If you just low-pass filter the image but don't use edge enhancement
    what effect does this have on the image?

    If it is necessary to use low-pass filtering to get rid of flickering
    on interlaced displays must you always use EE to compensate for this?

    When he refers to "rails" what exactly is he referring to?

    If you don't low pass filter the image nor use EE and view the image
    on a progressive display should the image be theoretically perfect?

    Finally has anybody seen the new Lawrence of Arabia Superbit on a
    large screen
    Progressive display and if so how does it look in terms of EE and
    generally compared to the earlier 2 disc Collectors edition?

    Regards,
    Peter Mason
    Peter Mason, Oct 7, 2003
    #1
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  2. Peter Mason

    Joshua Zyber Guest

    "Peter Mason" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > He further states at about page 9(second last page of the article)
    > that transfers are low-pass filterd to prevent hefty flickering and
    > aliasing on
    > interlaced display. Since he states that Titanic is not low-pass
    > filtered nor edge-enhanced would this mean that there would be quite
    > noticeable flickering and aliasing when viewed on a normal interlace
    > TV?


    Yes.

    > If you just low-pass filter the image but don't use edge enhancement
    > what effect does this have on the image?


    Low pass filtering makes the image softer and reduces apparent
    fine-object detail.

    > If it is necessary to use low-pass filtering to get rid of flickering
    > on interlaced displays must you always use EE to compensate for this?


    No. The problem is that the telecine technicians generally
    overcompensate for the softening effect of the filtering by applying
    edge enhancement to "sharpen it back up".

    > If you don't low pass filter the image nor use EE and view the image
    > on a progressive display should the image be theoretically perfect?


    Well, there are lots of other problems that can go wrong in a video
    transfer.
    Joshua Zyber, Oct 7, 2003
    #2
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  3. Peter Mason

    gardibolt Guest

    (Peter Mason) wrote in message news:<>...
    > I have just been reading quite an interesting article about Edge
    > Enhancement
    > on www.videophile.info "Ultimate Guide to Edge Enhancement" by
    > Bjoern
    > Roy. He states on page 5 of the article:
    >
    > "Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    > it.
    > I don't mean little, I mean NONE. Nor is the image low-pass filtered
    > in any
    > form, resulting in hefty interlace flicker(rails...) on non-scaled
    > displays,
    > but incredible detail(even for a non-anamorphic transfer) on high end
    > systems.

    <snip>
    >
    > When he refers to "rails" what exactly is he referring to?
    >
    >


    The rails on the ship. These thin, curved lines are exceedingly
    difficult to render properly on an interlaced system.

    Mark
    gardibolt, Oct 7, 2003
    #3
  4. Peter Mason

    Samuel Paik Guest

    (Peter Mason) wrote:
    > I have just been reading quite an interesting article about Edge
    > Enhancement on www.videophile.info
    > "Ultimate Guide to Edge Enhancement" by Bjoern Roy. He states on
    > page 5 of the article:
    >
    > "Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    > it.


    Hmm... Maybe I ought to buy or rent a copy to look...

    > If you just low-pass filter the image but don't use edge enhancement
    > what effect does this have on the image?


    It will probably look soft.

    > If it is necessary to use low-pass filtering to get rid of flickering
    > on interlaced displays must you always use EE to compensate for this?


    Of course not.

    > When he refers to "rails" what exactly is he referring to?


    Probably the rails around the deck of the Titanic, that people lean
    on and prevents them from falling into the sea...

    > If you don't low pass filter the image nor use EE and view the image
    > on a progressive display should the image be theoretically perfect?


    Perfect is such a strong word... obviously the flicker reduction
    filtering and the edge enhancement are there to improve the quality
    on mid-range displays.
    Samuel Paik, Oct 7, 2003
    #4
  5. Peter Mason

    Peter Mason Guest

    (Samuel Paik) wrote in message news:<>...
    > (Peter Mason) wrote:
    > > I have just been reading quite an interesting article about Edge
    > > Enhancement on www.videophile.info
    > > "Ultimate Guide to Edge Enhancement" by Bjoern Roy. He states on
    > > page 5 of the article:
    > >
    > > "Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    > > it.

    >
    > Hmm... Maybe I ought to buy or rent a copy to look...


    If you do I would really appreciate it if you would let me know your
    opinion of the transfer?

    Regards,
    Peter Mason
    Peter Mason, Oct 8, 2003
    #5
  6. Peter Mason wrote:
    >
    > (Samuel Paik) wrote in message news:<>...
    > > (Peter Mason) wrote:
    > > > I have just been reading quite an interesting article about Edge
    > > > Enhancement on www.videophile.info
    > > > "Ultimate Guide to Edge Enhancement" by Bjoern Roy. He states on
    > > > page 5 of the article:
    > > >
    > > > "Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    > > > it.

    > >
    > > Hmm... Maybe I ought to buy or rent a copy to look...

    >
    > If you do I would really appreciate it if you would let me know your
    > opinion of the transfer?


    It's not the only DVD without any EE, but these are indeed very rare.
    So are HD transfers without EE (or aperture correction).
    The Titanic HD transfer is unusually soft for HD.
    Michel Hafner, Oct 8, 2003
    #6
  7. Peter Mason

    Joshua Zyber Guest

    "Michel Hafner" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > It's not the only DVD without any EE, but these are indeed very rare.
    > So are HD transfers without EE (or aperture correction).
    > The Titanic HD transfer is unusually soft for HD.


    That's because it's non-anamorphic.
    Joshua Zyber, Oct 8, 2003
    #7
  8. Joshua Zyber wrote:
    >
    > "Michel Hafner" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > It's not the only DVD without any EE, but these are indeed very rare.
    > > So are HD transfers without EE (or aperture correction).
    > > The Titanic HD transfer is unusually soft for HD.

    >
    > That's because it's non-anamorphic.


    HD, not DVD! HD is never 16:9 enhanced. The DVD is very sharp for
    letterbox material.
    Michel Hafner, Oct 8, 2003
    #8
  9. Peter Mason

    Joshua Zyber Guest

    "Michel Hafner" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > > > It's not the only DVD without any EE, but these are indeed very

    rare.
    > > > So are HD transfers without EE (or aperture correction).
    > > > The Titanic HD transfer is unusually soft for HD.

    > >
    > > That's because it's non-anamorphic.

    >
    > HD, not DVD! HD is never 16:9 enhanced. The DVD is very sharp for
    > letterbox material.


    There is an HD edition of Titanic? It's not available on DVHS to my
    knowledge. Are you talking about an HBO transfer? If so, I'd imagine it
    was cropped to 16:9 like all of their other non-OAR transfers.
    Joshua Zyber, Oct 8, 2003
    #9
  10. Joshua Zyber wrote:
    >
    > "Michel Hafner" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > > > It's not the only DVD without any EE, but these are indeed very

    > rare.
    > > > > So are HD transfers without EE (or aperture correction).
    > > > > The Titanic HD transfer is unusually soft for HD.
    > > >
    > > > That's because it's non-anamorphic.

    > >
    > > HD, not DVD! HD is never 16:9 enhanced. The DVD is very sharp for
    > > letterbox material.

    >
    > There is an HD edition of Titanic? It's not available on DVHS to my
    > knowledge. Are you talking about an HBO transfer? If so, I'd imagine it
    > was cropped to 16:9 like all of their other non-OAR transfers.


    Yes, HBO, I think. It's 2.35 : 1.
    Michel Hafner, Oct 8, 2003
    #10
  11. Peter Mason

    Joshua Zyber Guest

    "Michel Hafner" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > > There is an HD edition of Titanic? It's not available on DVHS to my
    > > knowledge. Are you talking about an HBO transfer? If so, I'd imagine

    it
    > > was cropped to 16:9 like all of their other non-OAR transfers.

    >
    > Yes, HBO, I think. It's 2.35 : 1.


    Must be an old transfer then, because their current policy is to crop
    all movies to 16:9. Only old transfers like The Fifth Element or Hunt
    For Red October appear in their original 2.35:1 ratios.

    Since HBO does their own film-to-video transfers, rather than the
    original studio, the quality of their HD broadcasts is often hit or
    miss. This has nothing to do with the movie itself, or any potential
    future video releases. It's just an HBO thing.
    Joshua Zyber, Oct 8, 2003
    #11
  12. Peter Mason

    manitou910 Guest

    >>>
    >>>"Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    >>>it.

    >>
    >>Hmm... Maybe I ought to buy or rent a copy to look...


    There may be no EE, but the field-related 3:2 pulldown flagging is
    totally screwed. Also the disc is not anamorphic.

    A Faroudja scaler, or progressive-scan player with Faroudja DCDi
    de-interlacing is about the only way at present to make this disc look
    decent.








    C.
    manitou910, Oct 22, 2003
    #12
  13. Peter Mason

    Mark W Guest

    "manitou910" <> wrote in message
    news:JNvlb.237849$ko%...
    > >>>
    > >>>"Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    > >>>it.
    > >>
    > >>Hmm... Maybe I ought to buy or rent a copy to look...

    >
    > There may be no EE, but the field-related 3:2 pulldown flagging is
    > totally screwed. Also the disc is not anamorphic.
    >
    > A Faroudja scaler, or progressive-scan player with Faroudja DCDi
    > de-interlacing is about the only way at present to make this disc look
    > decent.
    >
    >



    You forgot to mention using the green pen round the edge of the disc.
    Mark W, Oct 22, 2003
    #13
  14. Peter Mason

    Martin Hart Guest

    In article
    <JNvlb.237849$ko%>,
    says...
    > >>>
    > >>>"Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    > >>>it.
    > >>
    > >>Hmm... Maybe I ought to buy or rent a copy to look...

    >
    > There may be no EE, but the field-related 3:2 pulldown flagging is
    > totally screwed. Also the disc is not anamorphic.
    >
    > A Faroudja scaler, or progressive-scan player with Faroudja DCDi
    > de-interlacing is about the only way at present to make this disc look
    > decent.


    A Farudja scaler with DCDi AND progressive scan player makes a lot of DVD
    look good. And if they're good to begin with they look extremely good on
    screen. And black & white movies are really stunning, which means that a
    good color transfer is as close to film as we're going to get with many
    classics. Film is better, but a setup like this is pretty damned good.

    Marty
    --
    The American WideScreen Museum
    Online Archive
    http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
    Martin Hart, Oct 22, 2003
    #14
  15. Peter Mason

    Peter Mason Guest

    "Mark W" <s@o> wrote in message news:<>...
    > "manitou910" <> wrote in message
    > news:JNvlb.237849$ko%...
    > > >>>
    > > >>>"Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    > > >>>it.
    > > >>
    > > >>Hmm... Maybe I ought to buy or rent a copy to look...

    > >
    > > There may be no EE, but the field-related 3:2 pulldown flagging is
    > > totally screwed. Also the disc is not anamorphic.
    > >
    > > A Faroudja scaler, or progressive-scan player with Faroudja DCDi
    > > de-interlacing is about the only way at present to make this disc look
    > > decent.
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    > You forgot to mention using the green pen round the edge of the disc.


    What exactly does this accomplish?

    Regards,
    Peter Mason
    Peter Mason, Oct 23, 2003
    #15
  16. >> You forgot to mention using the green pen round the edge of the disc.
    >
    >What exactly does this accomplish?


    I think someone had his tongue planted firmly in his cheek. About 12 years
    ago, there was a popular notion that if you lined the outer and inner edges of
    a CD with a green marker, it improved the sound. Even some noted publications
    bought into this one. Eventually, it was determined that the only thing it
    accomplished was to turn your fingers green when you picked up the disc.



    John Larrabee
    Co-founder: Laurel & Hardy Central
    http://laurelandhardycentral.com

    (To respond via e-mail, remove "nixspam")

    "Exit, pursued by a bear"
    John Larrabee, Oct 23, 2003
    #16
  17. Peter Mason

    manitou910 Guest

    Peter Mason wrote:
    >>
    >>You forgot to mention using the green pen round the edge of the disc.

    >
    > What exactly does this accomplish?


    IIRC it was supposed to be a green magic marker.

    And was it audio CD or DVD?

    <g>









    C.
    manitou910, Oct 23, 2003
    #17
  18. >You forgot to mention using the green pen round the edge of the disc.
    >


    There'ya go. Make yourself look like an idiot.

    "Yeah, I put green marker on the edges of my CDs and the sound is better! If I
    do the same to my DVDs, the video must get better!"

    Except, the green marker trick doesn't do anything unless you're using it to
    cover a portion of the irridescent side of a copy-protected Sony audio CD, and
    this allows you to make copies of the CD as opposed to making it sound better.

    As for using progressive scan, it's not an option but more a necessity if you
    want to play your DVDs with a progressive scan display to its fullest. To
    achieve good results, the player ought to have a good MPEG CODEC and a
    deinterlacing solution with a decent "reverse 3:2" process.

    Otherwise, you'll see portions of one frame bleed into the next, which is very
    noticeable and annoying.

    For example, let's say you have film footage of an object that's swinging left
    to right which was filmed at 24 FPS, then transferred to NTSC video with 3:2
    pulldown applied to make it work good at 30 FPS. Progressive scan doesn't need
    3:2 because of the physics involved in progressive scanning versus interlaced
    scanning, so if you play that image deinterlaced but with no reverse 3:2, the
    object may appear to occupy both left and right positions almost at the same
    time! - Reinhart
    LASERandDVDfan, Oct 23, 2003
    #18
  19. Martin Hart wrote:
    >
    > In article
    > <JNvlb.237849$ko%>,
    > says...
    > > >>>
    > > >>>"Titanic is probably the only dvd that doesn't have any EE applied to
    > > >>>it.
    > > >>
    > > >>Hmm... Maybe I ought to buy or rent a copy to look...

    > >
    > > There may be no EE, but the field-related 3:2 pulldown flagging is
    > > totally screwed. Also the disc is not anamorphic.
    > >
    > > A Faroudja scaler, or progressive-scan player with Faroudja DCDi
    > > de-interlacing is about the only way at present to make this disc look
    > > decent.

    >
    > A Farudja scaler with DCDi AND progressive scan player makes a lot of DVD
    > look good. And if they're good to begin with they look extremely good on
    > screen. And black & white movies are really stunning, which means that a
    > good color transfer is as close to film as we're going to get with many
    > classics. Film is better, but a setup like this is pretty damned good.


    Faroudja technology is also useful for watching HD material. It can make
    HD CAM 1080i/60 1080i/60p with minimal interlace problems and film
    originated material progressive without 2:3 pulldown. Their DVP5000
    is dated though and it's the successor that many are waiting for.
    Michel Hafner, Oct 23, 2003
    #19
  20. Peter Mason

    manitou910 Guest

    Michel Hafner wrote:
    >>>
    >>>There may be no EE, but the field-related 3:2 pulldown flagging is
    >>>totally screwed. Also the disc is not anamorphic.
    >>>
    >>>A Faroudja scaler, or progressive-scan player with Faroudja DCDi
    >>>de-interlacing is about the only way at present to make this disc look
    >>>decent.

    >>
    >>A Farudja scaler with DCDi AND progressive scan player makes a lot of DVD
    >>look good. And if they're good to begin with they look extremely good on
    >>screen. And black & white movies are really stunning, which means that a
    >>good color transfer is as close to film as we're going to get with many
    >>classics. Film is better, but a setup like this is pretty damned good.

    >
    > Faroudja technology is also useful for watching HD material. It can make
    > HD CAM 1080i/60 1080i/60p with minimal interlace problems and film
    > originated material progressive without 2:3 pulldown. Their DVP5000
    > is dated though and it's the successor that many are waiting for.


    The DVP5000 is pretty pricey, though I'm aware it's ability to rescale
    1080i to 1080p is considered the ultimate HiDef presentation at present,
    at least for a front projector with 9" CRTs.

    I wasn't aware the 5000 eliminates 2:3 pulldown.

    How is this accomplished? A refresh rate of 72fps seems the most
    obvious method.

    Ideally I'd like scalers (and progressive-scan DVD players) which ID
    _all_ 24fps film-source materials (NTSC and PAL) and output the video at
    an appropriate multiple of 24. This would also require an audio chip
    for PAL discs to detect the 4% speedup, correct it, determine whether or
    not pitch correction has been implemented and, if so, how well etc.






    C.
    manitou910, Oct 23, 2003
    #20
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