DVD Piracy if one owns the VHS?

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by stankley, Sep 9, 2003.

  1. stankley

    stankley Guest

    I had a discussion with a buddy last night. We couldn't agree on:

    1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?

    2) In similar vein, if one has a vinyl/tape album and borrows/rents a
    CD of the same to make a copy, is this illegal?

    Having bought the VHS/vinyl/tape one has paid royalty to the artists
    and publishing company. Is this adequate to make the digital copy
    legal?
    stankley, Sep 9, 2003
    #1
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  2. On 9 Sep 2003 05:19:37 -0700, (stankley) wrote:

    >I had a discussion with a buddy last night. We couldn't agree on:
    >
    >1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    >makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?
    >
    >2) In similar vein, if one has a vinyl/tape album and borrows/rents a
    >CD of the same to make a copy, is this illegal?
    >
    >Having bought the VHS/vinyl/tape one has paid royalty to the artists
    >and publishing company. Is this adequate to make the digital copy
    >legal?


    Depends on what country you're in.

    Mischa
    Mischa van Dinter, Sep 9, 2003
    #2
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  3. stankley

    DarkMatter Guest

    On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 15:59:18 +0200, Mischa van Dinter
    <> Gave us:

    >On 9 Sep 2003 05:19:37 -0700, (stankley) wrote:
    >
    >>I had a discussion with a buddy last night. We couldn't agree on:
    >>
    >>1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    >>makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?
    >>
    >>2) In similar vein, if one has a vinyl/tape album and borrows/rents a
    >>CD of the same to make a copy, is this illegal?
    >>
    >>Having bought the VHS/vinyl/tape one has paid royalty to the artists
    >>and publishing company. Is this adequate to make the digital copy
    >>legal?

    >
    >Depends on what country you're in.
    >
    >Mischa



    He answered his own question. "digital" copy. Not legal here, and
    in most places. Won't be in most others, before it is over.

    The key word being digital.
    DarkMatter, Sep 9, 2003
    #3
  4. On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 07:47:23 -0700, DarkMatter
    <> wrote:


    >>>Having bought the VHS/vinyl/tape one has paid royalty to the artists
    >>>and publishing company. Is this adequate to make the digital copy
    >>>legal?

    >>
    >>Depends on what country you're in.
    >>
    >>Mischa

    >
    >
    > He answered his own question. "digital" copy. Not legal here, and
    >in most places. Won't be in most others, before it is over.
    >
    > The key word being digital.


    In most territories, the criterium is "do you circumvent protection to
    obtain the copy." And in the Netherlands where I live, you have to
    check that a) you are copying an original, and b) you're dealing with
    audiovisual work, eg not print or software. The distinction between a
    DVD and software is very unclear.

    Since most digital media are more or less protected, your criterium is
    fairly accurate. However, in some territories it is legal to copy an
    original EVEN IF you do NOT own the original yourself but hired or
    borrowed it.

    Mischa
    Mischa van Dinter, Sep 9, 2003
    #4
  5. stankley

    Max Volume Guest

    In article <>, stankley
    <> wrote:

    > I had a discussion with a buddy last night. We couldn't agree on:
    >
    > 1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    > makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?


    Yes.

    > 2) In similar vein, if one has a vinyl/tape album and borrows/rents a
    > CD of the same to make a copy, is this illegal?


    Yes.

    > Having bought the VHS/vinyl/tape one has paid royalty to the artists
    > and publishing company. Is this adequate to make the digital copy
    > legal?


    No. Transferring the actual tape you own onto VHS is probably another
    matter, provided you retain the original.
    Max Volume, Sep 9, 2003
    #5
  6. >1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    >makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?


    SNIP

    Consult a legal professional with expertise in this particular field for
    trustworthy answers to your questions.

    If you are not sure, don't do it. - Reinhart
    LASERandDVDfan, Sep 9, 2003
    #6
  7. stankley wrote:
    > I had a discussion with a buddy last night. We couldn't agree on:
    >
    > 1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    > makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?
    >


    Yes. You don't own the movie, you own a *copy* of the movie. It would
    be like saying you can steal a Lincoln because you already own a Ford
    Taurus.

    --
    "Get rid of the Range Rover. You are not responsible for patrolling
    Australia's Dingo Barrier Fence, nor do you work the Savannah, capturing
    and tagging wildebeests."
    --Michael J. Nelson

    Grand Inquisitor
    http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost
    Grand Inquisitor, Sep 9, 2003
    #7
  8. I would imagine that the copyright notice at the beginning of the DVD expressly
    forbidding any copying of the contents would supercede any assumed rights.

    Mark
    Mark Aldridge, Sep 9, 2003
    #8
  9. stankley

    ML-78 Guest

    > >Depends on what country you're in.
    >
    > He answered his own question. "digital" copy. Not legal here, and
    > in most places. Won't be in most others, before it is over.
    >
    > The key word being digital.


    Still, depends on what country you're in.


    ML-78
    ML-78, Sep 10, 2003
    #9
  10. stankley

    DarkMatter Guest

    On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 17:47:18 +0200, Mischa van Dinter
    <> Gave us:

    >In most territories, the criterium is "do you circumvent protection to
    >obtain the copy." And in the Netherlands where I live, you have to
    >check that a) you are copying an original, and b) you're dealing with
    >audiovisual work, eg not print or software. The distinction between a
    >DVD and software is very unclear.
    >
    >Since most digital media are more or less protected, your criterium is
    >fairly accurate. However, in some territories it is legal to copy an
    >original EVEN IF you do NOT own the original yourself but hired or
    >borrowed it.
    >


    Actually, if one follows the letter of the law as you stated it, it
    is NOT legal as it is REQUIRED to defeat the protection schema to get
    the copy, even if such "defeating" is by way of a simple player
    software or ANY other means. The fact that a useable stream was
    acquired from a protected disc PROVES that the protection was
    defeated. Doh!

    Are all the clueless out there getting it yet?
    DarkMatter, Sep 10, 2003
    #10
  11. stankley

    Max Volume Guest

    In article <bjlqhc$2so5$>, ML-78
    <> wrote:

    > Still, depends on what country you're in.


    Doesn't everything? I mean, if he lived in Malaysia would he even have
    asked???
    Max Volume, Sep 10, 2003
    #11
  12. stankley

    DarkMatter Guest

    On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:15:06 +0200, "ML-78"
    <> Gave us:

    >> >Depends on what country you're in.

    >>
    >> He answered his own question. "digital" copy. Not legal here, and
    >> in most places. Won't be in most others, before it is over.
    >>
    >> The key word being digital.

    >
    >Still, depends on what country you're in.


    Not in most countries if you know how to read the laws without
    throwing your bent, distorted perceptions into them.
    DarkMatter, Sep 10, 2003
    #12
  13. stankley <> wrote:

    > I had a discussion with a buddy last night. We couldn't agree on:
    >
    > 1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    > makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?
    >
    > 2) In similar vein, if one has a vinyl/tape album and borrows/rents a
    > CD of the same to make a copy, is this illegal?
    >
    > Having bought the VHS/vinyl/tape one has paid royalty to the artists
    > and publishing company. Is this adequate to make the digital copy
    > legal?


    He who consults Usenet for legal advice has a fool for a lawyer.
    Neill Massello, Sep 10, 2003
    #13
  14. stankley

    ML-78 Guest

    > >Still, depends on what country you're in.
    >
    > Not in most countries if you know how to read the laws without
    > throwing your bent, distorted perceptions into them.


    Perhaps not in most, but in some countries it really is legal since digital
    releases has been put on the same footing as analogue. This is the case in
    Denmark and reading what the other poster said seems to be more or less the same
    in Holland, and probably other European countries too (in Denmark however, the
    law might be changed by next year or so). The laws are quite clear, it's not a
    matter of how you read them. The only thing is, the copy must be made from an
    original and it musn't circumvent a copy protection if the disc has one (which
    practically only means those few CD's that actually has copy protection). This
    goes for CD's and DVD's - software is another case.


    ML-78
    ML-78, Sep 10, 2003
    #14
  15. stankley

    Rob Guest

    There are no such people. The entire area of copyright law is designed
    only to feed lawyers who think they are experts :)

    (LASERandDVDfan) wrote in message news:<>...
    > >1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    > >makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?

    >
    > SNIP
    >
    > Consult a legal professional with expertise in this particular field for
    > trustworthy answers to your questions.
    >
    > If you are not sure, don't do it. - Reinhart
    Rob, Sep 10, 2003
    #15
  16. On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 17:40:41 -0700, DarkMatter
    <> wrote:

    >On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 17:47:18 +0200, Mischa van Dinter
    ><> Gave us:
    >
    >>In most territories, the criterium is "do you circumvent protection to
    >>obtain the copy." And in the Netherlands where I live, you have to
    >>check that a) you are copying an original, and b) you're dealing with
    >>audiovisual work, eg not print or software. The distinction between a
    >>DVD and software is very unclear.
    >>
    >>Since most digital media are more or less protected, your criterium is
    >>fairly accurate. However, in some territories it is legal to copy an
    >>original EVEN IF you do NOT own the original yourself but hired or
    >>borrowed it.
    >>

    >
    > Actually, if one follows the letter of the law as you stated it, it
    >is NOT legal as it is REQUIRED to defeat the protection schema to get
    >the copy, even if such "defeating" is by way of a simple player
    >software or ANY other means.


    Wrong. I stated that in the Netherlands the criterium is a) copying
    from original, and b) not print or software. Copy protection is
    irrelevant. Who has problems reading here? Other territories use the
    "defeating protection is prohibited" and we're going the same way in
    Holland, but as it stands now, it is only illegal to defeat copyright
    protection on software and not on audiovisual work.


    >The fact that a useable stream was
    >acquired from a protected disc PROVES that the protection was
    >defeated. Doh!
    >
    > Are all the clueless out there getting it yet?


    Are you trying to be smart or funny? I suggest you don't, I graduated
    law school on this stuff. In my example of the Netherlands, when
    copying a DVD and it's legality is concerned defeating protections to
    obtain the copy is irrelevant.

    Mischa
    Mischa van Dinter, Sep 10, 2003
    #16
  17. stankley

    Russell Guest

    Commonsense, for the average person is an invaluable asset;
    for the lawyer it is an insurmountable handicap.

    If you have the VHS, then why pay extra fr the DVD.
    A good question, but consider that the DVD is likely to have
    copyrighted material that is not on the VHS.

    Transferring the contents of the VHS (that you own) to a DVD for
    your own purposes should be no problem under fair use; but under
    the present system on injustice, any smooth talking imitation
    Perry Mason can make you seem the most heinous criminal that
    ever stood the Earth.

    Sometime ago, a representative of the recording industry said
    that if you hummed a tune on the street corner, you should be
    required to pay royalties for the privilege. The original
    artist, while well-compensated, receives very little from a
    recording, most of the cost is outrageous profits that go to
    middlemen who have no talent of their own and must live off of
    the sweat and toil of others. If it still exited, the Gestapo
    could learn much from them.

    Neill Massello wrote:
    > stankley <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I had a discussion with a buddy last night. We couldn't agree on:
    >>
    >>1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    >>makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?
    >>
    >>2) In similar vein, if one has a vinyl/tape album and borrows/rents a
    >>CD of the same to make a copy, is this illegal?
    >>
    >>Having bought the VHS/vinyl/tape one has paid royalty to the artists
    >>and publishing company. Is this adequate to make the digital copy
    >>legal?

    >
    >
    > He who consults Usenet for legal advice has a fool for a lawyer.
    Russell, Sep 10, 2003
    #17
  18. stankley

    Jordan Lund Guest

    (stankley) wrote in message news:<>...
    > I had a discussion with a buddy last night. We couldn't agree on:
    >
    > 1) If one owns a VHS movie, then borrows/rents a DVD of the same and
    > makes a 'backup' copy, is one breaking the law?


    Depends on if there are any differences between the VHS and DVD
    versions... i.e. If the VHS is pan and scan and the DVD is widescreen
    then, yup. It's a violation because you can't claim that the back up
    was just to replace the tape. It's a different version of the tape.

    Even if both versions are functionally identical it's still illegal
    under the DMCA because you have to bypass Macrovision to make the
    copy, the act of bypassing copy protection itself is a crime under the
    DMCA.

    - Jordan
    Jordan Lund, Sep 10, 2003
    #18
  19. stankley

    DarkMatter Guest

    On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:09:54 -0500, Russell <> Gave
    us:

    >Commonsense, for the average person is an invaluable asset;
    >for the lawyer it is an insurmountable handicap.
    >
    >If you have the VHS, then why pay extra fr the DVD.



    Talk about lack of common sense. Dude, the quality of VHS is like
    NIL comparatively speaking.
    DarkMatter, Sep 11, 2003
    #19
  20. stankley

    DarkMatter Guest

    On 10 Sep 2003 10:15:11 -0700, (Jordan Lund) Gave
    us:

    >Depends on if there are any differences between the VHS and DVD
    >versions... i.e. If the VHS is pan and scan and the DVD is widescreen
    >then, yup. It's a violation because you can't claim that the back up
    >was just to replace the tape. It's a different version of the tape.



    Stupid logic. It is a different version no matter what.

    Form factor makes no difference. What differs is the SOURCE for the
    material. Doh!
    DarkMatter, Sep 11, 2003
    #20
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