DVD and CD ROT: Out of the closet, at last!

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by One-Shot Scot, May 11, 2004.

  1. >> Another possible solution is to make discs with a thicker layer of acrylic
    >for
    >> the lacquer seal.

    >
    >Not possible. The tolerences are already alarmingly fine.


    A few more microns thicker would not be difficult to pull off. Besides, the
    lacquer seal layer is the label side. Adding a thicker layer of acrylic on the
    top won't interfere with the pressed polycarbonate layer on the bottom. The
    lacquer seal is also applied after the polycarbonate disc is injection-molded
    and after the aluminum reflective substrate is sputtered on the disc. -
    Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 12, 2004
    #21
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  2. >**Hi Reinhart. I have a few questions for you, if you don't mind :)
    >Where do you buy Taiyo Yuden discs?


    Maxell distributes Taiyo Yuden discs under their "CD-R PRO" line. Fujifilm
    used to distribute Taiyo Yuden media up until they switched suppliers.

    Places to check for the Maxell CD-R PRO product include Wal-Mart and Staples.

    You can also do an eBay search for Taiyo Yuden to search for Taiyo Yuden CD-R
    products. Beware of the seller's feedback rating, though.

    >Have you ever used Mitsui?


    I have had very limited experience with Mitsui Thermal, unfortunately.
    However, their product is supposed to be pretty good. Their products have used
    pythalocyanine dyes. Taiyo Yuden use cyanine dyes.

    >Do you make DVD-Rs?


    I wish. Right now, all I have to work with is CD-Rs.

    >**I read a post in this newsgroup where someone said that DVD rot is
    >quite often brought on by user neglect. He made the point that
    >sometimes straining to pull the disc out of the case sometimes will
    >even do it.


    Unfortunately. There are some cases to where it is difficult to extract the
    disc from the case without bending the disc. Although, I've learned a trick of
    getting some of these discs out without bending them.

    >Do you still store your DVDs in their cases or do you store them in,
    >for instance, a DVD-album?


    I always store my CDs and DVDs in their original cases. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 12, 2004
    #22
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  3. >And what's odd is...I don't. Which is to say that while I don't
    >"abuse" my discs, and do handle them with a reasonable amount of care,
    >I don't treat them like glass antiques, nor do I go to any lengths to
    >keep them in a temperature- and humidity-controlled environment.


    You don't have to handle them like museum pieces. All that's needed is to
    develop habits of handling CDs like you would regular records, which is
    reasonable amount of care.

    It amuses me when I see people have problems with CDs and my inspection reveals
    substantial damage to both the lacquer layer and the irridescent side as a
    result of bad handling and rarely anything else.

    One time, a classmate back in high school was wondering why his CD kept
    skipping constantly from one point all the way to the end. Checking out the
    disc, it had a physical crack that traveled 1/3 of the way from the outer edge
    towards the center. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 12, 2004
    #23
  4. One-Shot Scot

    GMAN Guest

    In article <>, "One-Shot Scot" <> wrote:
    >Some in this newsgroup who have not experienced DVD rot continue to
    >ridicule and belittle those who have. My first rotted disk was
    >_Cabaret_, which failed to play only 4 months after I bought it in 1998.
    >Other rotted titles followed, and I reported all of them. Other people
    >reported that they too had experienced DVD Rot, but for the most part,
    >all of us were quickly dismissed as crackpots.
    >
    >Now that the DVD Rot problem has infested more and more disks, DVD Rot
    >articles are becoming more and more common, including a recent one from
    >CNN. If I sound bitter and cynical, it is because I have been
    >mocked and insulted for 6 years for my concerns about DVD Rot. Now, I
    >can tell my detractors, "I told you so!" But my vindication is not a
    >happy one, because, like everyone else on this newsgroup, I too have a
    >collection of DVDs and CDs which is currently rotting away.
    >
    >Some people think that backing up their DVDs and CDs to DVD-R and
    >CD-R disks will protect their investment. According to the CNN article
    >referenced below, ALL optical disks will eventually rot, some much
    >sooner than others. Brand loyalty is a waste of time and money when
    >buying recordable optical disks because manufacturers continually change
    >their materials and manufacturing methods. A slow-rotting brand-name
    >formula might be replaced by a fast-rotting brand-name formula without
    >notice. Let the buyer beware.
    >
    >If you are still living in a dream world and think that DVD and CD Rot
    >is nothing more than an urban legend, don't read this article, it will
    >only upset you:
    >
    >http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/05/06/disc.rot.ap/
    >
    >

    Where the hell did they dig up that caveman ??? Did he lose his way on the
    trail to a Rainbow Gathering?
     
    GMAN, May 12, 2004
    #24
  5. >>With CD-Rs, the difference is when that happens. Most discs, typically
    >those
    >>made in Taiwan by manufacturers like Ritek and CMC Magnetics for several

    >brand
    >>names, are garbage.

    >
    >Which brand names?


    Memtek/Memorex/Dysan discs have been made by numerous suppliers so it's hard to
    tell.

    TDK used to make their own discs, but now have their discs made by CMC
    Magnetics.

    Imation has their discs made by CMC.

    Nashua has their discs made by CMC. Nashua has also been some of the absolute
    worst CD-Rs I have ever used.

    Verbatim has their discs made by CMC under supervision of Mitsubishi Chemical.

    Philips usually has their discs made by Ritek.

    Sony makes their own CD-R product at this time, but they're merely okay. They
    couldn't be reliably written on at speeds above 4x on my Sony CRX-140E.

    I don't know who makes Fuijfilm discs now. But, I do know that they use a
    Taiwanese supplier, which is now reason enough to avoid them except when you
    find NOS Fuji products that were made in Japan.

    Maxell has their CD-R discs made by themselves in Taiwan or by Ritek. Their
    PRO line of CD-Rs, however, are made in Japan by Taiyo Yuden.

    At this point, the only brands I'd use for myself are Maxell PRO CD-Rs and
    Taiyo Yuden branded CD-Rs.

    Every Taiyo Yuden disc I've used have been extremely reliable. They're easy to
    write on, are very resistant to UV, and are very resistant to heat. However,
    CD-Rs from any manufacturer will be damaged from excessive exposure to UV and
    heat. However, Taiyo Yuden discs will last much longer than CMC and
    particularly Ritek under grueling conditions.

    >How are they labeled in the store?


    Just look for a label indicating where the discs were made on the packaging.
    If the label says "Made in Japan," it is most likely Taiyo Yuden. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 12, 2004
    #25
  6. >no watched it once put it back in case and away safely no putting down on
    >hard surface as it was in the dvd case with the other three discs and they
    >play great, come to watch the other week and nothing on the same dvd that I
    >originally watched some time ago.


    It may be very possible that this particular disc is defective due to a
    manufacturing fault. Try to contact the place of sale for a possible exchange.
    If that fails, try to contact the home video label that distributed the disc
    in your particular region. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 12, 2004
    #26
  7. Forgot to add.

    TDK also has their discs made by Ritek. - Reinahrt
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 12, 2004
    #27
  8. One-Shot Scot

    TB Guest

    Jordan Lund wrote:
    > "One-Shot Scot" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    >
    >>Some in this newsgroup who have not experienced DVD rot continue to
    >>ridicule and belittle those who have.

    >
    > I can only speak from personal experience, my first CD (Billy Joel's
    > Glass Houses) still works fine and it's going on 20 years old now. No
    > sign of wear, age or rot. I'm not going to say people are imagining
    > that their discs are unplayable, but I will say that either poor
    > handling over time is the issue or minor disc defects that are not
    > noticed on one player but are noticed on others.


    You simply do not know what you're talking about.

    I also have some cds dating back to the mediums' first year of public
    consumption and they still play fine. As I mentioned in an earlier post
    on this thread, I've also had several cds literally "rot" which includes
    physically changing color on the data side from silver to a spotty
    copper color within a few months of purchase.

    This isn't due to mishandling or "minor disc defects" but oxidation
    occurring on the actual aluminum disc that the data is imprinted on due
    either to chemical corrosion from the glues used to laminate the disc or
    air and other impurities trapped in a dirty production facility during
    the manufacturing process. Sometimes, it's not a discoloration but if
    you hold a cd up to strong light, you can see tiny pinhole flaws in the
    silver aluminum data disc. I've had a dozen or so laserdiscs and maybe 4
    dvds exhibit the same problem with the symptom always being that the
    disc plays fine when bought, and over a period of a few months to
    several years, it becomes unplayable.

    T.B.
     
    TB, May 12, 2004
    #28
  9. "jayembee" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    (LASERandDVDfan) wrote:

    >>My first rotted disk was _Cabaret_, which failed to play only 4 months
    >>after I bought it in 1998. Other rotted titles followed, and I
    >>reported all of them.

    >
    >You just have terrible luck ... or very bad habits.


    I have over 400 DVDs in my collection, and as far as I know, only 5 of
    them have rotted. ALL of these titles rotted were pressed by Warner. I
    was able to replace all but one of the titles, and so far, the
    replacements are still rot free.

    Here is my final DVD rot report, dated September 07, 2003:

    If you have a copy of the first _Devil's Advocate_ (Warner DVD #15090),
    you might want to check and see if it has rotted yet. Mine was purchased
    in December of 1999 and seemed to play well one year ago. However, today
    after the layer change, the pixelation on the second layer quickly
    became so bad that my player locked up. This title is so notorious for
    rotting that I bought the new version a couple of years ago. So far, the
    new version still plays perfectly.

    The original _Devil's Advocate_ Warner DVD #15090 had a white sticker on
    the front of the box as well as a red band on the back of the box which
    said the following:

    "The large white sculpture of human forms on the wall of John Milton's
    penthouse in "Devil's Advocate" is not connected in any way and was not
    endorsed by the sculptor Frederick Hart of the Washington National
    Cathedral, joint copyright owners of the cathedral sculpture "Ex Nihilo"
    in Washington, D.C."

    If this disclaimer is not on the box, you are looking at the new
    version.

    The new _Devil's Advocate_ Warner DVD # 16172 has the Ex Nihilo statue
    edited out so that none of the figures are visible. Later, when the
    statue begins to move, the new version of the film looks exactly like
    the original.

    Chapters 1-25 are located on the first layer of the disk and should play
    well. It is after the layer change -- at the end of chapter 25 and at
    the beginning of chapter 26 -- that a rotted disk will display playback
    problems. This brings my total of rotted disks to 5 and ALL of them came
    from Warner:

    Devil's Advocate (First pressing which cannot be replaced. However,
    the edited version is still playing well.)

    Cabaret (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)

    Casablanca -- Original DVD (First one rotted, replacement playing
    well.)

    Maltese Falcon (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)

    My Fair Lady (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)

    You might want to check the second layers of the Warner titles listed
    above if they are in your collection.

    <<From my perspective, Scott, I never ridiculed your reports of rot. But
    I have on a couple of occasions when this subject came up, reported that
    my discs have not rotted. Even specific titles that you've reported,
    I've checked, and not one of them exhibited any signs of rot.>>

    <<Which makes me inclined to agree with Reinhart that you either have
    bad luck or bad habits.>>

    I have over 500 audio CDs and -- as far as I know -- none of them has
    rotted. All of my CDs and DVDs are stored vertically in CD jewel cases
    which are kept in lidded bus tubs. (Bus tubs are used in restaurants to
    store dishes cleared from tables.) These containers, when stored in a
    dry environment, away from heat sources, provide a relatively constant
    environment, as far as humidity and dust are concerned. The original
    disk packages remain perpetually like new, because they are stored in
    cardboard file boxes which are also kept in a cool, dry place.

    None of my disks requires any cleaning because they are only handled by
    their edges. Dust is removed from the disks by a light dusting with a #1
    pin striping brush. In spite of my careful handling and storage methods,
    5 of my DVDs have rotted.

    If it is true that bending dual-layer DVDs can introduce hairline
    cracks, there was an era when many DVDs were subjected to this type of
    abuse. My first encounter with DVD packages which required bending of
    the DVDs imbedded inside them was around the time when _Citizen Kane_
    was released. Fortunately, these types of lock-up hub designs have been
    replaced by more user-friendly designs. Just the same, on September 26,
    2001, in response to many posts detailing the problems with the
    _Citizen Kane_ case, I posted instructions which probably helped some
    people better deal with these poorly designed cases:

    That_Citizen Kane_box is atrociousness. I was finally able to devise a
    way to pry the disks out without damaging them, but those disks are
    never going back into that horrible case.

    Warner did not include instructions on how to extract the DVDs from this
    new, non-snapper case. Here's the best procedure that I could come up
    with:

    1. Place the case on a flat, stable surface. Firmly hold a thumb or
    finger on the center hub where is says "Push." (Doing this will prevent
    the disk from jumping sideways and getting scratched when it is finally
    pried lose.)

    2. Because the 4 indentations surrounding the edges of the disks are too
    shallow to allow getting a good grip on the sides of the disk, it is
    necessary to try hooking a fingernail under the disk edge. If this is
    not possible, a work-around is provided in step #3.

    3. Work-around for step #2: Repeat step #1, but instead of trying to
    grab the disk by its edges, slide the edge of a credit card under the
    outer edge of the disk while supporting the top edge of the disk with
    your thumb. Carefully run the credit card around the edge of the disk
    while continuing to pry the disk out of its shallow trap. Be sure to
    maintain constant and firm finger contact with the center hub: Failure
    to do this will allow the disk to jump sideways when it is finally pried
    free.

    4. If you want to avoid going through the above procedure again, store
    the extracted DVDs in CD jewel cases.

    We all complained about how bad the Warner snapper cases are and Warner
    has responded. I have heard people warn that we should be careful what
    we wish for. This new double-disk Warner case is not a snapper -- it is
    much worse than that. We got out wish, but maybe this isn't what we had
    in mind.


    Moviezzz wrote in message
    <>...
    >Hi all,
    >
    >Yes, Warner abandoned the snapper for CITIZEN KANE. But, could they
    >have made the center holder any more difficult to release the DVD from?
    >It took me 5 minutes to get the film off the center ring, the way they
    >have it designed.
    >
    >The DVD looks great though. Great transfer.
     
    One-Shot Scot, May 12, 2004
    #29
  10. >You simply do not know what you're talking about.
    >
    >I also have some cds dating back to the mediums' first year of public
    >consumption and they still play fine. As I mentioned in an earlier post
    >on this thread, I've also had several cds literally "rot" which includes
    >physically changing color on the data side from silver to a spotty
    >copper color within a few months of purchase.
    >
    >This isn't due to mishandling or "minor disc defects" but oxidation
    >occurring on the actual aluminum disc that the data is imprinted on due
    >either to chemical corrosion from the glues used to laminate the disc or
    >air and other impurities trapped in a dirty production facility during
    >the manufacturing process.


    Now look who's talking.

    You do not know what YOU are talking about!

    First off, the information on the disc is molded on one side of the
    polycarbonate layer itself. What you call the "data layer" is what is
    referred to as the aluminum reflective substrate.

    A CD is pressed by injecting molten polycarbonate at high pressure into a
    special press. After injection, the pressing is rapidly chilled. The
    transparent ploycarbonate disc has the pits and lands. The aluminum is applied
    by sputtering vaporized aluminum until a uniform application of a desired
    amount has been placed on the data side of the polycarbonate. Then, the
    lacquer layer, which is made of acrylic, is layered over the reflective
    substrate to seal it in. This is done in much the same way that photo-resist
    is applied on a blank glass master. No glues or adhesives are used to make
    CDs. Adhesives are used only if you are taking two disc havles and joining
    them to make one dual-sided disc, which is the case with dual sided DVDs and
    LaserDiscs.

    >Sometimes, it's not a discoloration but if
    >you hold a cd up to strong light, you can see tiny pinhole flaws in the
    >silver aluminum data disc.


    Those pin holes are usually breeches of the lacquer layer, either due to a
    manufacturing imperfection (people who have dealt with CDs made by
    Philips-DuPont Optical know what I'm talking about here) or most likely damage
    inflicted on the label side by the user.
    Sometimes, the things that can pierce through the lacquer can also scrape away
    portions of the reflective substrate, which makes that area of the disc
    transparent all of a sudden.

    The real interesting part is that it doesn't take much for this kind of damage
    to happen. Just one incidence of neglect, major or minor, is all it takes to
    damage the lacquer layer and expose the reflective substrate to the outside air
    to promote oxidation of the aluminum.

    I had a Prodigy album, which was pressed by WEA. It was pristine without any
    kind of defects before I lent it to a friend. About a couple of weeks later,
    my friend returned my disc. It was full of pin holes and scratches on the
    lacquer layer as well as scratches on the irridescent side. Needless to say,
    my friend destroyed one of my audio CDs in my music collection. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 12, 2004
    #30
  11. >I have over 400 DVDs in my collection, and as far as I know, only 5 of
    >them have rotted. ALL of these titles rotted were pressed by Warner. I
    >was able to replace all but one of the titles, and so far, the
    >replacements are still rot free.


    Then you shouldn't call the problem widespread.

    One, you've established yourself that your experience with this problem of DVDs
    is limited to just one manufacturing plant: Warner Advanced Media Operations or
    "WAMO."

    Secondly, you've also admitted that the replacement copies you've obtained do
    not have any problems, suggesting that WAMO has corrected their replication
    issues.

    >I have over 500 audio CDs and -- as far as I know -- none of them has
    >rotted. All of my CDs and DVDs are stored vertically in CD jewel cases
    >which are kept in lidded bus tubs.


    Another admission that your claims are mostly conjecture without any tangible
    evidence. So far, the only source that supports your contention is a piece of
    journalism with more holes in it than swiss cheese.

    >In spite of my careful handling and storage methods,
    >5 of my DVDs have rotted.


    And those copies were replaced and you're not having problems with them. Those
    discs have failed due to a manufacturing defect that, according to your
    testimony, has been corrected.

    >If it is true that bending dual-layer DVDs can introduce hairline
    >cracks, there was an era when many DVDs were subjected to this type of
    >abuse.


    That's the theory. Bending the disc can cause hairline fractures in the
    lacquer seal layer as well as possibly deforming the pit and land structures
    and damaging the lamination of the layers on RSDL DVD discs.

    If anything, your attacks should be directed against Time Warner and not at
    anyone else. Even then, there is no reason for an outcry as it seems rather
    obvious that Warner has corrected their replication issues long ago, with
    exception of their DVD cases.

    All of your discs, with exception of five out-of-print titles from Warner, are
    all good.

    To me, I don't see how that's any justification to jump the gun and literally
    accuse the entire concept of the reflective optical disc as being too badly
    flawed for consumer use.

    From my view, your points are borne from an irrational fear that your entire
    collection could deteriorate within two years just because of five bad discs
    from one manufacturer made within an extremely small time span. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 12, 2004
    #31
  12. One-Shot Scot

    TB Guest

    LASERandDVDfan wrote:
    >>You simply do not know what you're talking about.
    >>
    >>I also have some cds dating back to the mediums' first year of public
    >>consumption and they still play fine. As I mentioned in an earlier post
    >>on this thread, I've also had several cds literally "rot" which includes
    >>physically changing color on the data side from silver to a spotty
    >>copper color within a few months of purchase.
    >>
    >>This isn't due to mishandling or "minor disc defects" but oxidation
    >>occurring on the actual aluminum disc that the data is imprinted on due
    >>either to chemical corrosion from the glues used to laminate the disc or
    >>air and other impurities trapped in a dirty production facility during
    >>the manufacturing process.

    >
    >
    > Now look who's talking.
    >
    > You do not know what YOU are talking about!
    >
    > First off, the information on the disc is molded on one side of the
    > polycarbonate layer itself. What you call the "data layer" is what is
    > referred to as the aluminum reflective substrate.
    >
    > A CD is pressed by injecting molten polycarbonate at high pressure into a
    > special press. After injection, the pressing is rapidly chilled. The
    > transparent ploycarbonate disc has the pits and lands. The aluminum is applied
    > by sputtering vaporized aluminum until a uniform application of a desired
    > amount has been placed on the data side of the polycarbonate. Then, the
    > lacquer layer, which is made of acrylic, is layered over the reflective
    > substrate to seal it in. This is done in much the same way that photo-resist
    > is applied on a blank glass master. No glues or adhesives are used to make
    > CDs. Adhesives are used only if you are taking two disc havles and joining
    > them to make one dual-sided disc, which is the case with dual sided DVDs and
    > LaserDiscs.
    >
    >
    >>Sometimes, it's not a discoloration but if
    >>you hold a cd up to strong light, you can see tiny pinhole flaws in the
    >>silver aluminum data disc.

    >
    >
    > Those pin holes are usually breeches of the lacquer layer, either due to a
    > manufacturing imperfection (people who have dealt with CDs made by
    > Philips-DuPont Optical know what I'm talking about here) or most likely damage
    > inflicted on the label side by the user.
    > Sometimes, the things that can pierce through the lacquer can also scrape away
    > portions of the reflective substrate, which makes that area of the disc
    > transparent all of a sudden.
    >
    > The real interesting part is that it doesn't take much for this kind of damage
    > to happen. Just one incidence of neglect, major or minor, is all it takes to
    > damage the lacquer layer and expose the reflective substrate to the outside air
    > to promote oxidation of the aluminum.


    Aside from indicating "damage" needs to be done to a disc (which isn't
    always true), you've pretty much said the same thing I did except in
    more detail.

    T.B.
     
    TB, May 13, 2004
    #32
  13. >> The real interesting part is that it doesn't take much for this kind of
    >damage
    >> to happen. Just one incidence of neglect, major or minor, is all it takes

    >to
    >> damage the lacquer layer and expose the reflective substrate to the outside

    >air
    >> to promote oxidation of the aluminum.

    >
    >Aside from indicating "damage" needs to be done to a disc (which isn't
    >always true), you've pretty much said the same thing I did except in
    >more detail.


    The only ways that the aluminum can be exposed to the outside air is either a
    screw up in manufacturing or damage on the lacquer layer.

    Try running your fingernail on the label side of a CD and looking at the
    irridescent side at the same time. You'll notice an indent in the lacquer and
    reflective layers that moves with your fingernail. This will give you an idea
    as to how thin the lacquer layer is as well as how easy it would be to damage
    it.

    Polymers, such as acrylic plastic used in making the lacquer layer, do not
    "rot" since they can't biodegrade. Therefore, the only ways that the lacquer
    layer can fail in protecting the aluminum from oxidation is from bad
    manufacturing, physical damage, or chemical penetration.

    Bad manufacturing is actually a very rare incidence.

    Chemical penetration is a concern because the acrylic is so thin that many
    different kinds of solutions, from prolonged exposure to water to brief
    exposure to strong solvents, can go through or damage the acrylic and attack
    the aluminum. However, chemical penetration doesn't happen unless you have a
    habit of immersing your discs in water for too long or are unlucky enough to
    spill acetone on your favorite CD.

    Physical damage is the most common cause. Tell me that you've never seen a
    person mishandle a CD. I'll bet you've seen people do just that like holding
    CDs while touching the irridescent side, placing CDs in those horrible CD
    wallets, haphazardly place a disc back into its jewel case, throw the CDs into
    backpacks or pockets, lay CDs label side facing down, stack CDs outside their
    cases, use them as makeshift drink coasters, let it lie around on the floor or
    underneath the seat of a car, and a lot of other bad things you could do to a
    CD that would make it fail sooner or later. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 13, 2004
    #33
  14. One-Shot Scot

    TB Guest

    LASERandDVDfan wrote:

    (snip)

    >>Aside from indicating "damage" needs to be done to a disc (which isn't
    >>always true), you've pretty much said the same thing I did except in
    >>more detail.

    >
    >
    > The only ways that the aluminum can be exposed to the outside air is either a
    > screw up in manufacturing or damage on the lacquer layer.


    (snip)

    Exactly. I don't know why you seem so intent on diverting attention from
    the fact that manufacturing errors such as various forms of
    contamination during the "pressing" process *do* occur resulting in
    so-called laser rot which has absolutely nothing to do with mishandling,
    but it does happen. Anyone can do a Google search on cd, laserdisc and
    dvd rot and find plenty of common threads about specific titles in each
    medium that any person would logically determine was *not* caused by
    scratches, mishandling, fingerprints and so on.

    Granted, it's not a major problem, especially with cds and dvds maybe
    numbering about 3% at best, but it was fairly common with a significant
    percent of laserdiscs manufactured in the mid to late 90's by a specific
    plant that produced many titles released by Sony/Tri Star.

    T.B.
     
    TB, May 13, 2004
    #34
  15. One-Shot Scot

    DarkMatter Guest

    On Tue, 11 May 2004 20:53:33 -0700, "luminos" <> Gave
    us:

    >
    >"LASERandDVDfan" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> Digital is still, IMO, preferred for preservation.

    >
    >No professional archivist would agree.
    >

    I think that you're fucking lost.

    There are entire buildings devoted to digital archives. Buildings
    as big as the national gallery of art across from the smithsonian.
    Bigger even.

    Where have you been for the last 40 years?
     
    DarkMatter, May 13, 2004
    #35
  16. >Exactly. I don't know why you seem so intent on diverting attention from
    >the fact that manufacturing errors such as various forms of
    >contamination during the "pressing" process *do* occur


    But the frequency of those kinds of defects are so low in CD manufacturing that
    it's almost not worth debating.

    If the aluminum doesn't oxidize within 2 years on any of your CDs, then it's
    likely that it will never rot unless you physically damage the lacquer layer
    from neglect or carelessness. The lacquer layer is the only thing that
    protects the aluminum from the outside air, so damaging it risks exposing the
    aluminum to the outside.

    > laser rot which has absolutely nothing to do with mishandling,


    It does. Like I've said countless times, the lacquer layer is the only kind of
    protection that the aluminum has against the outside environment. This layer
    is thinner than a strand of human hair, so it is very easy to damage it to the
    point where the its seal for the aluminum is compromised, thus exposing the
    small section of metal to the air which can spread.

    Perhaps I should have clarified that this is the only kind of damage that you
    can do on a CD and DVD that will cause this kind of damage. As you've
    described, you cannot damage the lacquer by any other form of mishandling
    except that which directly affects the lacquer itself. This is why it is
    advisable to anyone who has CDs to never rest a CD with its label side facing
    downward against a hard surface. This is because you'd be resting the CD on
    its lacquer layer on the hard surface, where any kind of granular dust or dirt
    can potentially compromise the lacquer seal. This is a reason why you have to
    protect the lacquer layer side (CD label side) against scratches as much as you
    would the irridescent side. This is also the reason why it is advised that you
    do not immerse your CDs in water or expose them to various solvents.

    LaserDiscs also have this problem, per se. However, problems with LDs were due
    to how the disc halves were joined together and what was used to do it.
    Remember, two LD halves are used to make one complete disc. The LD halves also
    have a lacquer layer that is extremely thin. If the ahesive formulation is
    flawed, then some of the compounds in the glue could penetrate the lacquer and
    chemically attack the aluminum on one or both disc halves. This was the
    problem that Pioneer and other LD pressers where having during the early 1980s
    when laser rot first because publicized. Other problems could occur if any
    foreign matter is caught between the two halves, which was the case with LDs
    replicated by MCA DiscoVision. Yet another cause would be if air bubbles were
    trapped in the middle of the LD halves, where the oxygen content in those
    bubbles would penetrate the lacquer and oxidize the aluminum.

    >Granted, it's not a major problem, especially with cds and dvds maybe
    >numbering about 3% at best, but it was fairly common with a significant
    >percent of laserdiscs manufactured in the mid to late 90's by a specific
    >plant that produced many titles released by Sony/Tri Star.


    That's ancient history, and you are right that it isn't a major problem.

    BTW, Sony DADC USA wasn't the only one. In the early 1980s, Pioneer had
    problems with rot that ended up being corrected. 3M had problems with rot in
    the 80s that ended up being corrected. Technidisc perhaps had the worst record
    in their first years of operation, averaging a failure rate that is close to
    100% of their product before their first closing and retooling for the late
    1980s to fix it. WEA had problems, which caused them to stop making LDs and
    concentrate on CDs exclusively. Mitsubishi Plastics had problems which were
    corrected. Despite these problems, only a handful of discs are affected when
    you compare the majority of LaserVision formatted discs that are out there
    which are still playable. Even when LD was concerned, laser rot was still
    minor in occurance when you looked at the big picture.

    The BIGGEST damage that laser rot had caused was making people blow the whole
    problem totally out of proportion, giving the concept of the reflective optical
    disc a very bad name. In the days of LD laser rot, a lot of people said that
    EVERY single LD from every manufacturer was affected and that every LD ever
    made in the past, present, and future would rot, which is horse-hockey. This
    is all deja vu, only with DVDs and CDs now.

    I will bet that there have been CDs and DVDs that have rotted as much as
    affected LDs. To deny that is denying something that is very possible and
    something that probably has happened. But, the incidence of manufacturing
    defects that resulted in rot is extremely low, usually well below 5%. More
    than 90% of CDs and DVDs that are replicated will not rot due to manufacturing
    problems. To me, it is absolutely not worth going on with a big rant and rave
    over such defects when their incidence is so low. With such defects being so
    low in occurance, I'd be more than willing to bet on it. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 13, 2004
    #36
  17. One-Shot Scot

    Stan Brown Guest

    "LASERandDVDfan" <> wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    >If the aluminum doesn't oxidize within 2 years on any of your CDs, then it's
    >likely that it will never rot unless you physically damage the lacquer layer
    >from neglect or carelessness. The lacquer layer is the only thing that
    >protects the aluminum from the outside air, so damaging it risks exposing the
    >aluminum to the outside.


    I've got a bunch of CDs in their original jewel boxes, stored on
    edge in those rotating racks. The layout of the room kind of forces
    me to put the racks in front of the window, which faces west.

    Should I worry about the effects of afternoon sun through a closed
    window on the CDs, other than perhaps faded ink on the spine labels?
    Or is that a ridiculous question?

    --
    Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
    http://OakRoadSystems.com
    DVD FAQ: http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html
    other FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
     
    Stan Brown, May 13, 2004
    #37
  18. >Should I worry about the effects of afternoon sun through a closed
    >window on the CDs, other than perhaps faded ink on the spine labels?
    >Or is that a ridiculous question?


    Not ridiculous at all.

    The jewel case and their inserts should provide adequate protection from the
    kind of conditions you've described. Heat might be a concern, though.

    However, if you're still concerned, try to find a different place to put the
    CDs or drape something on the CDs to keep the sun off of them. I would do this
    for cosmetic reasons to keep the sun from fading the printing on the inserts,
    booklets, and spines. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 14, 2004
    #38
  19. One-Shot Scot

    Stan Brown Guest

    "LASERandDVDfan" <> wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    >>Should I worry about the effects of afternoon sun through a closed
    >>window on the CDs, other than perhaps faded ink on the spine labels?
    >>Or is that a ridiculous question?

    >
    >Not ridiculous at all.
    >
    >The jewel case and their inserts should provide adequate protection from the
    >kind of conditions you've described. Heat might be a concern, though.
    >
    >However, if you're still concerned, try to find a different place to put the
    >CDs or drape something on the CDs to keep the sun off of them. I would do this
    >for cosmetic reasons to keep the sun from fading the printing on the inserts,
    >booklets, and spines. - Reinhart


    Thanks! -- also for your advice on picking archival CD-Rs.

    --
    Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
    http://OakRoadSystems.com
    DVD FAQ: http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html
    other FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
     
    Stan Brown, May 14, 2004
    #39
  20. >Thanks! -- also for your advice on picking archival CD-Rs.

    You're welcome.

    Remember, though. Even the best CD-Rs are vulnerable to damage from excessive
    heat and UV exposure. They're merely more able to take the punishment much
    better than cheapies. But, as a precaution, still do your best to protect
    CD-Rs from any such exposure. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, May 14, 2004
    #40
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