DTS ES on 5.1 speaker question

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Robotech_Master, Dec 7, 2003.

  1. In regards to the Fellowship of the Ring 4-disc DVD set...

    I have a Logitech 5.1 speaker set plugged into my computer, and
    PowerDVD (which can decode DTS) on the computer. It seems to work
    fine for standard DTS movies...

    However, Fellowship of the Ring has DTS ES, which is 6.1 speaker DTS.
    I only have 5.1. I'd like to know...is the middle rear ES channel
    simply dropped, or is it matrixed to the rear two speakers? When
    listening to both tracks, it feels like some of the sound is missing
    from the DTS version, making me suspect that part of the sound is
    dropped, but I'm not sure if that's true or if it's just all in my
    head.

    --
    Chris Meadows aka | If this post helped or entertained you, please rate
    Robotech_Master | it at http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=robotech
    |
    | Homepage: http://www.eyrie.org/~robotech
     
    Robotech_Master, Dec 7, 2003
    #1
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  2. Robotech_Master

    Jay G Guest

    "Robotech_Master" <> wrote
    > However, Fellowship of the Ring has DTS ES, which is 6.1 speaker DTS.
    > I only have 5.1. I'd like to know...is the middle rear ES channel
    > simply dropped, or is it matrixed to the rear two speakers?


    The DTS 6.1 ES is a discrete separate channel, which
    means yes it is dropped when output by a 5.1 system.
    However, it's doubtful that the discrete back center
    channel has any sound that isn't also in either the
    back right or left channels. So basically, when
    listening to it, you're hearing a standard DTS 5.1 mix.

    I've listened to both EE DVDs on my 5.1 system,
    and the DTS sounds great to my ears. Stop worrying
    about what you might be "missing," which is nothing
    besides an extra back channel, and just enjoy the
    movie. And hey, if the DD5.1EX track sounds better
    to you, listen to that.

    -Jay
     
    Jay G, Dec 7, 2003
    #2
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  3. Robotech_Master

    S Peach Guest

    "Jay G" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Robotech_Master" <> wrote
    > > However, Fellowship of the Ring has DTS ES, which is 6.1 speaker DTS.
    > > I only have 5.1. I'd like to know...is the middle rear ES channel
    > > simply dropped, or is it matrixed to the rear two speakers?

    >
    > The DTS 6.1 ES is a discrete separate channel, which
    > means yes it is dropped when output by a 5.1 system.
    > However, it's doubtful that the discrete back center
    > channel has any sound that isn't also in either the
    > back right or left channels. So basically, when
    > listening to it, you're hearing a standard DTS 5.1 mix.
    >
    > I've listened to both EE DVDs on my 5.1 system,
    > and the DTS sounds great to my ears. Stop worrying
    > about what you might be "missing," which is nothing
    > besides an extra back channel, and just enjoy the
    > movie. And hey, if the DD5.1EX track sounds better
    > to you, listen to that.
    >
    > -Jay
    >
    >

    Well, some of this is true.. but some of this is incorrect. (sorry)

    There are two types of DTS ES mixes..

    1) DTS ES "Discrete" 6.1

    In this case on Fellowship, yes it's a discrete ES 6.1 mix.. but, IF your
    reciever will only decode a DTS 5.1 mix, (i.e. your reciever doesn't have
    the ES option) then the code in the DTS stream will automatically put the
    center surround into the left and right surround channels.. even if the mix
    was encoded as a discrete 6.1.

    Remember, a DTS 6.1 ES Discrete mix really was encoded at the same data rate
    as a regular 5.1, the difference is that the center surround channel is
    embedded into the existing other channels.. then when a decoder is set up
    for ES and it sees the ES flag, it knows to seperate that center surround
    channel by itself to your center surround output. (this is one of the
    coolest things about DTS)

    2) DTS ES "Matrixed" 6.1

    Not many people realize that an ES "Matrixed" mix is actually very similar
    to a "Surround EX" mix.. like Dolby EX. (i.e. using the same +40/-40 degree
    phase shifting etc..) which in this case, the center surround channel is
    matrixed into the left and right surrounds. it's a phase game, when it's
    decoded, it's not a perfect 6.1 like a "discrete" mix is of course.

    So, in a nutshell, whether you're listening to a ES discrete OR matrixed -
    if your reciever only has a basic DTS 5.1 decoder, it will let that center
    surround channel come through - but now it is spread across into the left
    and right surround channels. DTS has written the code so that it's just not
    simply going to delete that center channel if you're only using a basic DTS
    5.1 decoder.. They did a pretty cool job of keeping that in check.

    Oh, and one more thing.. in the previous post, it was written:

    > However, it's doubtful that the discrete back center
    > channel has any sound that isn't also in either the
    > back right or left channels. So basically, when
    > listening to it, you're hearing a standard DTS 5.1 mix.


    This really isn't accurate, I don't know for sure about Fellowship, but I
    know that most films that are re-created into 6.1, they're usually mixed
    from seperate dialog, music & effects elements (called stems). I have heard
    films that will - for example in some scenes - only mix music into the left
    and right surround, and then place some important hard effects into the
    center surround channel only. They did this in mind that it would certainly
    never be dropped out of the mix.

    S. Peach
     
    S Peach, Dec 7, 2003
    #3
  4. Robotech_Master

    Rich Clark Guest

    "Robotech_Master" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In regards to the Fellowship of the Ring 4-disc DVD set...
    >
    > I have a Logitech 5.1 speaker set plugged into my computer, and
    > PowerDVD (which can decode DTS) on the computer. It seems to work
    > fine for standard DTS movies...
    >
    > However, Fellowship of the Ring has DTS ES, which is 6.1 speaker DTS.
    > I only have 5.1. I'd like to know...is the middle rear ES channel
    > simply dropped, or is it matrixed to the rear two speakers? When
    > listening to both tracks, it feels like some of the sound is missing
    > from the DTS version, making me suspect that part of the sound is
    > dropped, but I'm not sure if that's true or if it's just all in my
    > head.


    From www.dtsonline.com:

    "Any DTS-ES track is fully compatible with 5.1 decoders because the center
    surround channel information is matrixed into the LS and RS channels and
    will be heard in and between the LS and RS speakers."

    To clarify -- The center surround is always matrixed into the surround left
    and right. Sometimes there is *also* a discrete center surround channel, but
    the matrixed one is still there.

    A 6.1 decoder will extract the matrixed CS channel and route it to the CS
    speaker, unless there is a discrete CS channel. In that case, the matrixed
    one is extracted and dropped and the discrete one is used.

    So no, you're not losing anything with a 5.1 system.

    RichC
     
    Rich Clark, Dec 7, 2003
    #4
  5. Robotech_Master

    Jay G Guest

    "S Peach" <> wrote
    > >

    > Well, some of this is true.. but some of this is incorrect. (sorry)


    No need to apologize when correcting mistakes.

    > There are two types of DTS ES mixes..
    >
    > 1) DTS ES "Discrete" 6.1
    > 2) DTS ES "Matrixed" 6.1


    My mistake, I thought "ES" referred specifically
    to the discrete DTS 6.1.

    I found a good page explaining DTS 6.1 ES. Oddly
    enough, it's from the DTS website:
    http://www.dtstech.com/technology/at-a-glance-details.php?ID=1857247944

    > > However, it's doubtful that the discrete back center
    > > channel has any sound that isn't also in either the
    > > back right or left channels. So basically, when
    > > listening to it, you're hearing a standard DTS 5.1 mix.

    >
    > This really isn't accurate, I don't know for sure about Fellowship, but I
    > know that most films that are re-created into 6.1, they're usually mixed
    > from seperate dialog, music & effects elements (called stems). I have

    heard
    > films that will - for example in some scenes - only mix music into the

    left
    > and right surround, and then place some important hard effects into the
    > center surround channel only. They did this in mind that it would

    certainly
    > never be dropped out of the mix.


    Rich and the DTS website point out that the rear center channel is *always*
    matrixed into the rear right and left channels, even if there is a separate
    discrete center channel as well. So on a 6.1 system, the rear center
    channel has distinct sounds, but on a 5.1 system those sounds are mixed
    into the rear left and right channels. So you're missing no sounds when
    listening to a DTS 6.1 ES track in 5.1.

    I find it interesting that DTS 6.1 ES Discrete tracks utilize both discrete
    *and* matrixed rear center channels. It seems like this would cause some
    "bleed through" of the rear center audio into the rear L&R channels,
    even when the discrete rear center track is used. It's probably the best
    they could do while staying backwards compatible.

    -Jay
     
    Jay G, Dec 7, 2003
    #5
  6. On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:06:10 -0600, Jay G <> wrote:

    > Rich and the DTS website point out that the rear center channel is
    > *always* matrixed into the rear right and left channels, even if
    > there is a separate discrete center channel as well.


    I'd like to thank everyone who chimed in about the messages in this
    thread. I understand how the system works a lot better now; thank you
    all very much.
    --
    Chris Meadows aka | If this post helped or entertained you, please rate
    Robotech_Master | it at http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=robotech
    |
    | Homepage: http://www.eyrie.org/~robotech
     
    Robotech_Master, Dec 8, 2003
    #6
  7. Robotech_Master

    Rich Clark Guest

    "Jay G" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > I find it interesting that DTS 6.1 ES Discrete tracks utilize both

    discrete
    > *and* matrixed rear center channels. It seems like this would cause some
    > "bleed through" of the rear center audio into the rear L&R channels,
    > even when the discrete rear center track is used. It's probably the best
    > they could do while staying backwards compatible.


    And in practice there's no really audible effect of this; any imperfection
    in the "subtraction" of the matrixed CS signal is masked by the presence of
    the discrete one. It's a heckuvalot better than introducing yet another
    incompatible format.

    RichC
     
    Rich Clark, Dec 8, 2003
    #7
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