DSLR wish list

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Alfred Molon, Jun 13, 2004.

  1. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    - Compact size and lightweight
    - Price below 1000 Euro
    - high resolution (8 MP)
    - Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    speed)
    - buffered write (of course)
    - RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats
    - RAW file format is compressed
    - Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen
    - inbuilt flash, standard AA batteries, USB 2.0 interface
    - good image quality (low noise, low CA, good focusing system and so on)

    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Olympus_405080/
    Olympus 5050 resource - http://www.molon.de/5050.html
    Olympus 5060 resource - http://www.molon.de/5060.html
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://www.molon.de/8080.html
     
    Alfred Molon, Jun 13, 2004
    #1
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  2. Alfred Molon

    Sorby Guest

    "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > - Compact size and lightweight
    > - Price below 1000 Euro
    > - high resolution (8 MP)
    > - Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    > speed)
    > - buffered write (of course)
    > - RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats
    > - RAW file format is compressed
    > - Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen
    > - inbuilt flash, standard AA batteries, USB 2.0 interface
    > - good image quality (low noise, low CA, good focusing system and so on)


    You forgot to mention ..

    Video capture
    Clock / Snooze / Alarm
    FM Radio
    Cup-holder
    ....

    --
    Sorby
     
    Sorby, Jun 13, 2004
    #2
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  3. "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > - Compact size and lightweight
    > - Price below 1000 Euro
    > - high resolution (8 MP)
    > - Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    > speed)
    > - buffered write (of course)
    > - RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats
    > - RAW file format is compressed
    > - Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen
    > - inbuilt flash, standard AA batteries, USB 2.0 interface
    > - good image quality (low noise, low CA, good focusing system and so on)


    You've just described the Nikon Coolpix 8700! Well, you didn't ask about
    interchangeable lenses or sensor size! Sorry about the AA batteires,
    though!

    <G>

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Jun 13, 2004
    #3
  4. Alfred Molon

    Lionel Guest

    Kibo informs me that "Sorby" <> stated that:

    >"Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> - Compact size and lightweight
    >> - Price below 1000 Euro
    >> - high resolution (8 MP)
    >> - Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    >> speed)
    >> - buffered write (of course)
    >> - RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats
    >> - RAW file format is compressed
    >> - Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen
    >> - inbuilt flash, standard AA batteries, USB 2.0 interface
    >> - good image quality (low noise, low CA, good focusing system and so on)

    >
    >You forgot to mention ..
    >
    >Video capture
    >Clock / Snooze / Alarm
    >FM Radio
    >Cup-holder
    >...


    Coffee-maker, kitchen sink, theodolite...

    --
    W
    . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
    \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
    ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Lionel, Jun 13, 2004
    #4
  5. Alfred Molon

    DJ Guest

    On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:51:57 +0200, Alfred Molon <>
    wrote:

    Canon 300D (Digital Rebel)

    >- Compact size and lightweight


    Light. SLR sized <g>

    >- Price below 1000 Euro


    Hmmm... probably not. Still the cheapest genuine dSLR

    >- high resolution (8 MP)


    6Mpx. The current 8Mpx non-SLR cameras are highly inferior
    because of small sensors & high noise.

    >- Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    >speed)


    AFAIK Never spec'd

    >- buffered write (of course)


    4 frames for the 300D

    >- RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats


    Yes, yes, yes, no (why would you?)

    >- RAW file format is compressed


    About 6MB per pic, becomes 36MB when expanded to 16 bit TIFF.

    >- Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen


    Not on a true dSLR!

    >- inbuilt flash, standard AA batteries, USB 2.0 interface


    Lithium Ion battery. Buy one spare and go all day (400 shots/charge)

    >- good image quality (low noise, low CA, good focusing system and so on)


    Excellent image quality. See
    http://www.splatco.com/david/kids-web_deploy/index.htm

    You should also look at Nikon D70.
     
    DJ, Jun 13, 2004
    #5
  6. Alfred Molon

    Mark B. Guest

    "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > - Compact size and lightweight
    > - Price below 1000 Euro
    > - high resolution (8 MP)
    > - Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    > speed)
    > - buffered write (of course)
    > - RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats


    Why tiff? Takes up way too much space and takes too long to write. With
    raw, there's no reason.

    > - RAW file format is compressed


    I don't think that's possible, and raw is already only slightly larger than
    jpg large fine (on a Canon system)

    > - Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen


    Not unless they use one of those tiny digicam sensors, in which case you
    lose all the image quality advantages.

    > - inbuilt flash, standard AA batteries, USB 2.0 interface


    Li-ions have excellent battery life, pretty sure AA would not be better. I
    use a USB2 card reader, don't have to hook up a cable to the camera every
    time and don't worry about draining the batteries. Not to mention if you
    have more than 1 card to download a card reader would be more convenient
    anyway.

    > - good image quality (low noise, low CA, good focusing system and so on)
    >


    This already exists in most current DSLRs.

    Mark
     
    Mark B., Jun 13, 2004
    #6
  7. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    David J Taylor <-this-bit.uk> wrote:
    >> - Compact size and lightweight
    >> - Price below 1000 Euro
    >> - high resolution (8 MP)
    >> - Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    >> speed)
    >> - buffered write (of course)
    >> - RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats
    >> - RAW file format is compressed
    >> - Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen
    >> - inbuilt flash, standard AA batteries, USB 2.0 interface
    >> - good image quality (low noise, low CA, good focusing system and so on)

    >
    >You've just described the Nikon Coolpix 8700! Well, you didn't ask about
    >interchangeable lenses or sensor size! Sorry about the AA batteires,
    >though!


    The 8700 has painfull slow card write speeds. And a lens which starts at
    F2.8 and goes to F4.2 at the tele end. I didn't mention sensor sizes,
    but I wrote "low noise"...
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Olympus_405080/
    Olympus 5050 resource - http://www.molon.de/5050.html
    Olympus 5060 resource - http://www.molon.de/5060.html
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://www.molon.de/8080.html
     
    Alfred Molon, Jun 13, 2004
    #7
  8. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    Mark B. <> wrote:
    >Why tiff? Takes up way too much space and takes too long to write. With
    >raw, there's no reason.


    True, but having TIFF can't hurt (just in case).

    >> - Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen

    >
    >Not unless they use one of those tiny digicam sensors, in which case you
    >lose all the image quality advantages.


    Should be possible even with a DSLR if you lock up the mirror.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Olympus_405080/
    Olympus 5050 resource - http://www.molon.de/5050.html
    Olympus 5060 resource - http://www.molon.de/5060.html
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://www.molon.de/8080.html
     
    Alfred Molon, Jun 13, 2004
    #8
  9. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    DJ <> wrote:
    >Canon 300D (Digital Rebel)


    Or the Nikon D70. But they are quite huge, have no live preview and only
    have 6MP (would prefer 8).

    >>- high resolution (8 MP)

    >
    > 6Mpx. The current 8Mpx non-SLR cameras are highly inferior
    > because of small sensors & high noise.


    Well, Canon has an 8MP large CMOS sensor, but I guess we won't see it in
    an affordable DSLR for some time.

    >>- Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    >>speed)

    >
    > AFAIK Never spec'd


    The Olympus E1 and the Nikon D70 are in that speed region. 3.7MB/s for
    the E1, 4MB/s for the D70. The Canon 300D is quite slow here, with just
    1.5MB/s.

    >>- Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen

    >
    > Not on a true dSLR!


    Then let the DLSR evolve a bit and add this feature. Currently DSLRs are
    like horse carriages with a combustion engine added.

    > You should also look at Nikon D70.


    That's the one I would probably get now, if I was forced to buy one. But
    it's still far away from my ideal.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Olympus_405080/
    Olympus 5050 resource - http://www.molon.de/5050.html
    Olympus 5060 resource - http://www.molon.de/5060.html
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://www.molon.de/8080.html
     
    Alfred Molon, Jun 13, 2004
    #9
  10. Alfred Molon

    E. Magnuson Guest

    On 2004-06-13, DJ <> wrote:
    > On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:51:57 +0200, Alfred Molon <>
    > wrote:
    >>- Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    >>speed)

    >
    > AFAIK Never spec'd


    It's been measured at a max of 1.3MB/s at

    http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-6425

    The D70 meets his specs at 4.6 MB/s for RAW.


    >>- RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats

    >
    > Yes, yes, yes, no (why would you?)


    No, Yes, Yes, No.

    It's not possible to turn off the embedded JPEG
    in the 300D. Although with the firmware hack
    you can reduce the size.


    > You should also look at Nikon D70.


    Yes, it mainly lacks the live preview and AA batts.
    It may also miss the price mark including VAT.

    --
    Erik
     
    E. Magnuson, Jun 13, 2004
    #10
  11. Alfred Molon

    E. Magnuson Guest

    On 2004-06-13, Mark B. <> wrote:
    >
    >> - RAW file format is compressed

    >
    > I don't think that's possible, and raw is already only slightly larger than
    > jpg large fine (on a Canon system)


    That's because the Canon RAW is already losslessly compressed.

    --
    Erik
     
    E. Magnuson, Jun 13, 2004
    #11
  12. "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    []
    > The 8700 has painfull slow card write speeds. And a lens which starts at
    > F2.8 and goes to F4.2 at the tele end. I didn't mention sensor sizes,
    > but I wrote "low noise"...
    > --
    >
    > Alfred Molon


    Looks like you missed the <G>!

    I do take issue with many people here on the noise issue, though. To me,
    I have no problem with a little noise (grain) in an image.....

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Jun 13, 2004
    #12
  13. Alfred Molon

    Bill Hilton Guest

    You left out "auto cleaning sensors to remove dust", which would be very high
    on my list :)

    Would also add "1,200 or more frames per battery charge" (like the Canon 1D
    Mark II). And at least 100,000 cycles before the shutter craps out, instead of
    25,000 - 50,000 like most current low cost models.

    >- RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats


    If you have RAW you don't need TIFF. You can generate a better tiff later and
    you will be eaten alive by memory card costs since the RAW files are about 1/3
    the size of tiffs.

    >- RAW file format is compressed


    All of them I've seen are compressed.

    >- Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen


    This is a popular amateur feature but anyone used to 35 mm will do fine with
    the standard viewfinder.

    >- inbuilt flash


    Amateur feature.

    > standard AA batteries


    Too weak.

    > USB 2.0 interface


    Or Firewire. Or just buy a good fast CF card reader.

    The Mark II has everything you mention except the low cost, built-in TIFF
    generation, built-in flash and live preview.

    Stick to the other 8 Mpix bodies and you should be in good shape, except for
    the low noise.
     
    Bill Hilton, Jun 13, 2004
    #13
  14. Alfred Molon

    Leonard Guest

    DJ wrote:

    > On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:51:57 +0200, Alfred Molon <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > Canon 300D (Digital Rebel)
    >
    >
    >>- Compact size and lightweight

    >
    >
    > Light. SLR sized <g>


    Arguably too small :)

    >>- Price below 1000 Euro

    >
    >
    > Hmmm... probably not. Still the cheapest genuine dSLR


    Park Cameras have the 300D at less than 1050 EUR. Pretty close.

    >>- high resolution (8 MP)

    >
    >
    > 6Mpx. The current 8Mpx non-SLR cameras are highly inferior
    > because of small sensors & high noise.


    The 8M SLRs seem pretty good though. But 8 million pixels gets you
    less than 13% improvement in linear resolution. Unlikely to be a
    deal-breaker.

    >>- Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    >>speed)

    >
    >
    > AFAIK Never spec'd


    dpreview reckoned 1.5MB/s for the 300D. The D70 made about 4MB/s with
    a faster card.

    (snip)

    >>- Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen

    >
    >
    > Not on a true dSLR!


    You could do it with an interchangeable prism. Unclip the
    optical finder and attach a unit with a low-res sensor where
    the ground glass should be. Wire that up to your LCD.

    - Len
     
    Leonard, Jun 13, 2004
    #14
  15. Alfred Molon

    Jim Townsend Guest

    Alfred Molon wrote:

    > - inbuilt flash,


    Why is a built in flash on your wish list ?

    They're generally pretty useless. It's not uncommon to see built
    in flashes left off of high end professional SLR's.
     
    Jim Townsend, Jun 13, 2004
    #15
  16. In article <>, Bill Hilton
    <> writes
    >
    >All of them I've seen are compressed.
    >
    >>- Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen

    >
    >This is a popular amateur feature but anyone used to 35 mm will do fine with
    >the standard viewfinder.
    >

    I find it a complete pain for photomicrography - the non-interchangeable
    screen on the EOS 10D is not optimised for this (needs clear/cross hair
    screen to get really accurate focussing in this job). With a good
    compact, you can feed the video out and focus on a large screen; on the
    10D you can't, which necessitates a *lot* of fiddling about and uttering
    words like "bother" and "oh dear". Using an auxiliary sensor would be
    pointless; it needs access to the actual sensor itself using mirror
    lock-up and time-opened shutter.

    Probably a minority need though, so I expect to carry on saying "bother"
    quite a bit. At least I don't waste any film....
    --
    David Littlewood
     
    David Littlewood, Jun 13, 2004
    #16
  17. In article <>, Jim Townsend
    <> writes
    >Alfred Molon wrote:
    >
    >> - inbuilt flash,

    >
    >Why is a built in flash on your wish list ?
    >
    >They're generally pretty useless. It's not uncommon to see built
    >in flashes left off of high end professional SLR's.
    >
    >

    The inbuilt flash on the 10D is just a waste of materials and weight, as
    with anything remotely wide the lens cuts off a fair chunk of light at
    the base of the picture.
    --
    David Littlewood
     
    David Littlewood, Jun 13, 2004
    #17
  18. Alfred Molon

    Lionel Guest

    Kibo informs me that "David J Taylor"
    <-this-bit.uk> stated that:

    >"Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >[]
    >> The 8700 has painfull slow card write speeds. And a lens which starts at
    >> F2.8 and goes to F4.2 at the tele end. I didn't mention sensor sizes,
    >> but I wrote "low noise"...
    >>
    >> Alfred Molon

    >
    >Looks like you missed the <G>!
    >
    >I do take issue with many people here on the noise issue, though. To me,
    >I have no problem with a little noise (grain) in an image.....


    My take on that is that, like you, I feel that there are plenty of shots
    which aren't harmed by a bit of noise, & that it can even be quite
    atmospheric. OTOH, it's a lot easier to add noise than it is to remove
    it, so given the choice, I'd prefer my raw images to be as low noise as
    possible.

    --
    W
    . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
    \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
    ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Lionel, Jun 13, 2004
    #18
  19. "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > - Compact size and lightweight
    > - Price below 1000 Euro
    > - high resolution (8 MP)
    > - Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    > speed)
    > - buffered write (of course)
    > - RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats
    > - RAW file format is compressed
    > - Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen
    > - inbuilt flash, standard AA batteries, USB 2.0 interface
    > - good image quality (low noise, low CA, good focusing system and so on)


    Current expectations for the Olympus E-300, which was aimed for the summer:

    > - Compact size and lightweight

    Consumer body

    > - Price below 1000 Euro

    With the 14-54mm F2.8-3.5 ($500 lens!)

    > - high resolution (8 MP)

    Yep, kind of expected.

    > - Fast read/write speed to memory card: at least 4MB/s (unbuffered raw
    > speed)

    Yep.

    > - buffered write (of course)

    Don'tthey all?

    > - RAW, RAW+JPEG, JPEG and TIFF formats

    Very Oly. Notsure why people wantthe tiff.

    > - RAW file format is compressed

    Oly no does.

    > - Live preview: large, bright foldable LCD screen

    DSLR?

    > - inbuilt flash, standard AA batteries, USB 2.0 interface

    E-300 will prob have a flash, but it will use the same batery that gets my
    E-1 nearly a 1000 shots.

    > - good image quality (low noise, low CA, good focusing system and so on)

    E-1 passes here, so figure the E-300 with second gen 4/3 chip will do the
    same.
     
    Robert Meyers, Jun 13, 2004
    #19
  20. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    Jim Townsend <> wrote:
    >Alfred Molon wrote:
    >
    >> - inbuilt flash,

    >
    >Why is a built in flash on your wish list ?
    >
    >They're generally pretty useless. It's not uncommon to see built
    >in flashes left off of high end professional SLR's.


    So that I don't have to always carry an external flash with me.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Olympus_405080/
    Olympus 5050 resource - http://www.molon.de/5050.html
    Olympus 5060 resource - http://www.molon.de/5060.html
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://www.molon.de/8080.html
     
    Alfred Molon, Jun 13, 2004
    #20
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