Dress for Success???

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Michael, Dec 10, 2003.

  1. Michael

    Michael Guest

    The Past: My photography teacher in college 25 years ago had the nastiest
    looking, most basic Pentax 35mm SLR I ever saw. He was a really good
    photographer. He and I both shot artistic photographs. One day he asked
    me if money was important to me because there wasn't a lot of money in
    the art field. Soon after I was in Engineering school and a few years
    later I became a software engineer. My camera sat in the closet for a
    long time. Lots of regrets, but no sense in looking back.

    The Present: Well, I grew up to be a software design manager. I made good
    money for a lot of years, but then I got laid off. I have a Canon G2 that
    I brought to Italy earlier this year, and I took some great photographs.
    But the more I use the camera, the more I miss the control that I had
    with my Minolta SRT 102. I love digital photography. I don't miss sitting
    in the darkroom swishing chemicals around.

    Looking forward: I still mostly enjoy artistic photography, but I would
    like to make some money. I have some ideas I want to explore in
    commercial photography. The problem that I have is that I don't a
    "professional looking" camera. I wanted to buy a Canon 10D, but I've been
    told they are all on back order around here. The 300D is cheaper, and
    would probably be OK feature-wise, but I don't think it looks
    professional enough.

    Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    "Dress for Success" doctrine?

    Is anyone using the 300D working with customers?

    Thanks for your advice!
    Michael, Dec 10, 2003
    #1
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  2. Michael

    Charlie Self Guest


    >Looking forward: I still mostly enjoy artistic photography, but I would
    >like to make some money. I have some ideas I want to explore in
    >commercial photography. The problem that I have is that I don't a
    >"professional looking" camera. I wanted to buy a Canon 10D, but I've been
    >told they are all on back order around here.


    So, B&H has them in stock: 3-4 days, and it's in your hands.

    Charlie Self

    "In the final choice a soldier's pack is not so heavy as a prisoner's chains."
    Dwight D. Eisenhower
    Charlie Self, Dec 10, 2003
    #2
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  3. Michael

    Guest Guest

    Just because it isn't black? This may be an issue for some studio work where
    you need to avoid reflections, but the color of the camera doesn't mean it
    takes better pictures.

    There are plenty of people who would have you believe that the 10D isn't up
    to pro standards.

    It's the pictures that do the talking.


    "Michael" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns944D568789276michaelmflyahoocom@24.25.9.42...
    > The Past: My photography teacher in college 25 years ago had the nastiest
    > looking, most basic Pentax 35mm SLR I ever saw. He was a really good
    > photographer. He and I both shot artistic photographs. One day he asked
    > me if money was important to me because there wasn't a lot of money in
    > the art field. Soon after I was in Engineering school and a few years
    > later I became a software engineer. My camera sat in the closet for a
    > long time. Lots of regrets, but no sense in looking back.
    >
    > The Present: Well, I grew up to be a software design manager. I made good
    > money for a lot of years, but then I got laid off. I have a Canon G2 that
    > I brought to Italy earlier this year, and I took some great photographs.
    > But the more I use the camera, the more I miss the control that I had
    > with my Minolta SRT 102. I love digital photography. I don't miss sitting
    > in the darkroom swishing chemicals around.
    >
    > Looking forward: I still mostly enjoy artistic photography, but I would
    > like to make some money. I have some ideas I want to explore in
    > commercial photography. The problem that I have is that I don't a
    > "professional looking" camera. I wanted to buy a Canon 10D, but I've been
    > told they are all on back order around here. The 300D is cheaper, and
    > would probably be OK feature-wise, but I don't think it looks
    > professional enough.
    >
    > Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    > "Dress for Success" doctrine?
    >
    > Is anyone using the 300D working with customers?
    >
    > Thanks for your advice!
    >
    Guest, Dec 10, 2003
    #3
  4. Michael

    DS Guest

    > Looking forward: I still mostly enjoy artistic photography, but I would
    > like to make some money. I have some ideas I want to explore in
    > commercial photography. The problem that I have is that I don't a
    > "professional looking" camera. I wanted to buy a Canon 10D, but I've been
    > told they are all on back order around here. The 300D is cheaper, and
    > would probably be OK feature-wise, but I don't think it looks
    > professional enough.
    >
    > Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    > "Dress for Success" doctrine?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I once worked at a camera store that was actually just a counter in a
    sporting goods store. Favorite customer story is the fellow who wanted to
    hang different cameras around his neck, check himself out in the full length
    mirror that was next to my counter to see how the cameras looked on him.

    Sounds like you.

    DS
    DS, Dec 10, 2003
    #4
  5. Michael

    Tom Nelson Guest

    In article <%cKBb.2635$>, DS
    <spam_me_not@buzz_off.jerk> wrote:

    > I once worked at a camera store that was actually just a counter in a
    > sporting goods store. Favorite customer story is the fellow who wanted to
    > hang different cameras around his neck, check himself out in the full length
    > mirror that was next to my counter to see how the cameras looked on him.
    >
    > Sounds like you.


    That's a low blow. As is the other comment that the 10D isn't a
    "professional" camera. In truth, the commercial photography market is
    very competitive, and your customers are going to judge you, as a new
    shooter, on a number of factors. Number one, by a wide margin, is your
    portfolio. They're not even going to SEE your camera until they hire
    you. If you do a good job for them, they won't care what you use.

    Tom Nelson
    Tom Nelson Photography
    Tom Nelson, Dec 10, 2003
    #5
  6. In article <Xns944D568789276michaelmflyahoocom@24.25.9.42>,
    Michael says...

    > Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is
    > there any truth to the "Dress for Success" doctrine?


    Fools look at the camera. Pros look at your pictures.
    Have pictures handy to show around. Best dress possible.

    --
    Michael Quack <>

    http://www.photoquack.de/glamour/1.htm
    http://www.photoquack.de/fashion/1.htm
    Michael Quack, Dec 10, 2003
    #6
  7. Michael

    Michael Guest

    Tom Nelson <> wrote in
    news:101220031434561158%:

    > In article <%cKBb.2635$>, DS
    > <spam_me_not@buzz_off.jerk> wrote:
    >
    >> wanted to hang different cameras around his neck, check himself out
    >> in the full length mirror that was next to my counter to see how the
    >> cameras looked on him.
    >>
    >> Sounds like you.

    >
    > shooter, on a number of factors. Number one, by a wide margin, is your
    > portfolio. They're not even going to SEE your camera until they hire
    > you. If you do a good job for them, they won't care what you use.
    >
    > Tom Nelson
    > Tom Nelson Photography
    >


    Ah, constructive advice. A rarity sometimes these days. Thank you.

    Maybe it wasn't clear, but in my original post I wanted to know if
    potential customers expect to see professional equipment. My current
    equipment is not professional, but the quality it provides should be
    adequate for some work.

    Currently my look is not a great concern of mine. My camera bag is a 25
    year old canvas back pack with a cut up camera bag sewn into the inside
    of it to hold lenses, etc. My Minolta has stickers on it from rock album
    covers, and it has a safety pin holding the camera strap on. I even
    scratched off "Canon" from my Canon strap because I thought it was
    pretentious. But I would like a new camera to do commercial work. I like
    Canon and I have been considering getting the 300D, but I am willing to
    make the jump to the 10D if it will help to bring in potential customers.
    Michael, Dec 10, 2003
    #7
  8. In article <Xns944DA7BB8A39Dmichaelmflyahoocom@24.25.9.43>,
    Michael says...

    > > shooter, on a number of factors. Number one, by a wide margin, is your
    > > portfolio. They're not even going to SEE your camera until they hire
    > > you. If you do a good job for them, they won't care what you use.


    Right. I had a client who demanded that I give him
    4x5" slides. For several reasons 35 mm was the
    much more reasonable platform. So I shot on Kodak
    Ektar 25 (sadly so discontinued) and printed on
    Vericolor print film - 4x5".

    When he received the slides he held them up, showed
    them to almost everybody in the company and claimed
    that there was no way to do it that good on 35mm.

    Weeks later I told him the truth over a glass of wine.

    He was shocked, thought for a while, and then told me
    to raise my fee 20% for the future jobs with him,
    and promised never ever again to tell me what my
    tool should be.

    --
    Michael Quack <>

    http://www.photoquack.de/glamour/1.htm
    http://www.photoquack.de/fashion/1.htm
    Michael Quack, Dec 10, 2003
    #8
  9. Just an aside- I was walking in a park in New Jersey with my 10D and the
    lens hood affixed to the 28-135 USM lens and within the course of 20
    minutes, three folks (all with dogs incidentally) approached me to ask if I
    was a "professional" photographer. (My guess is they wanted to set up for
    portraits of their pets). So I think that certain cameras do exude an air
    of professionalism that lends to the customers overall experience. (By the
    way, I am no where near professional, and declined their advances). Of
    course, walking around with something to professional looking also has its
    downside, depending on the neighborhood you are shooting in.


    "Michael" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns944DA7BB8A39Dmichaelmflyahoocom@24.25.9.43...
    > Tom Nelson <> wrote in
    > news:101220031434561158%:
    >
    > > In article <%cKBb.2635$>, DS
    > > <spam_me_not@buzz_off.jerk> wrote:
    > >
    > >> wanted to hang different cameras around his neck, check himself out
    > >> in the full length mirror that was next to my counter to see how the
    > >> cameras looked on him.
    > >>
    > >> Sounds like you.

    > >
    > > shooter, on a number of factors. Number one, by a wide margin, is your
    > > portfolio. They're not even going to SEE your camera until they hire
    > > you. If you do a good job for them, they won't care what you use.
    > >
    > > Tom Nelson
    > > Tom Nelson Photography
    > >

    >
    > Ah, constructive advice. A rarity sometimes these days. Thank you.
    >
    > Maybe it wasn't clear, but in my original post I wanted to know if
    > potential customers expect to see professional equipment. My current
    > equipment is not professional, but the quality it provides should be
    > adequate for some work.
    >
    > Currently my look is not a great concern of mine. My camera bag is a 25
    > year old canvas back pack with a cut up camera bag sewn into the inside
    > of it to hold lenses, etc. My Minolta has stickers on it from rock album
    > covers, and it has a safety pin holding the camera strap on. I even
    > scratched off "Canon" from my Canon strap because I thought it was
    > pretentious. But I would like a new camera to do commercial work. I like
    > Canon and I have been considering getting the 300D, but I am willing to
    > make the jump to the 10D if it will help to bring in potential customers.
    >
    >
    >
    gilbert grape, Dec 10, 2003
    #9
  10. Michael

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Michael wrote:

    > The Past: My photography teacher in college 25 years ago had the nastiest
    > looking, most basic Pentax 35mm SLR I ever saw. He was a really good
    > photographer. He and I both shot artistic photographs. One day he asked
    > me if money was important to me because there wasn't a lot of money in
    > the art field. Soon after I was in Engineering school and a few years
    > later I became a software engineer. My camera sat in the closet for a
    > long time. Lots of regrets, but no sense in looking back.
    >
    > The Present: Well, I grew up to be a software design manager. I made good
    > money for a lot of years, but then I got laid off. I have a Canon G2 that
    > I brought to Italy earlier this year, and I took some great photographs.
    > But the more I use the camera, the more I miss the control that I had
    > with my Minolta SRT 102. I love digital photography. I don't miss sitting
    > in the darkroom swishing chemicals around.
    >
    > Looking forward: I still mostly enjoy artistic photography, but I would
    > like to make some money. I have some ideas I want to explore in
    > commercial photography. The problem that I have is that I don't a
    > "professional looking" camera. I wanted to buy a Canon 10D, but I've been
    > told they are all on back order around here. The 300D is cheaper, and
    > would probably be OK feature-wise, but I don't think it looks
    > professional enough.
    >
    > Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    > "Dress for Success" doctrine?
    >
    > Is anyone using the 300D working with customers?
    >
    > Thanks for your advice!
    >


    I should think that you should be more focused on the product than the
    tool. If you take a good picture, no one will care if you used a
    %15,000 professional camera or a pin-hole camera. Much of photography
    is in the artistic aspects, assuming the camera is adequate to the task
    at hand. Go with function.
    Ron Hunter, Dec 10, 2003
    #10
  11. RE/
    >Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    >"Dress for Success" doctrine?


    Speaking as a customer - and as one who knows next to nothing about photography
    (digital or otherwise), I'd say that how you look and comport yourself is quite
    important.

    Considering that many customers don't know much about photography, they're still
    human beings and they have an innate need to judge you. Not knowing much about
    your craft, how're they going to judge you? I'd say by how you look and act -
    and, by extrapolation, how your equipment looks if/when they get to see it.

    Seems to me, though, that when they're making that "buy" decision, they usually
    wouldn't be seeing any equipment - so that leaves you spiel, your clothes, and
    your general manner.

    OTOH, if you come to their wedding with the same kind of camera that half the
    wedding parth has in their pocket there's going to be some heavy-duty anxiety
    until everybody sees how wonderful your pix are.
    --
    PeteCresswell
    (Pete Cresswell), Dec 11, 2003
    #11
  12. "Michael" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns944D568789276michaelmflyahoocom@24.25.9.42...
    > The Past: My photography teacher in college 25 years ago had the nastiest
    > looking, most basic Pentax 35mm SLR I ever saw. He was a really good
    > photographer. He and I both shot artistic photographs. One day he asked
    > me if money was important to me because there wasn't a lot of money in
    > the art field. Soon after I was in Engineering school and a few years
    > later I became a software engineer. My camera sat in the closet for a
    > long time. Lots of regrets, but no sense in looking back.
    >
    > The Present: Well, I grew up to be a software design manager. I made good
    > money for a lot of years, but then I got laid off. I have a Canon G2 that
    > I brought to Italy earlier this year, and I took some great photographs.
    > But the more I use the camera, the more I miss the control that I had
    > with my Minolta SRT 102. I love digital photography. I don't miss sitting
    > in the darkroom swishing chemicals around.
    >
    > Looking forward: I still mostly enjoy artistic photography, but I would
    > like to make some money. I have some ideas I want to explore in
    > commercial photography. The problem that I have is that I don't a
    > "professional looking" camera. I wanted to buy a Canon 10D, but I've been
    > told they are all on back order around here. The 300D is cheaper, and
    > would probably be OK feature-wise, but I don't think it looks
    > professional enough.
    >
    > Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    > "Dress for Success" doctrine?
    >
    > Is anyone using the 300D working with customers?
    >
    > Thanks for your advice!
    >


    Get a Holga, hell, it's big and black, and now you're stylin' with medium
    format, to boot.


    LOL


    Patrick
    Rudy Von Tschudi, Dec 11, 2003
    #12
  13. Michael

    Sloopy Guest

    In article <>,
    Michael Quack <> wrote:

    > In article <Xns944DA7BB8A39Dmichaelmflyahoocom@24.25.9.43>,
    > Michael says...
    >
    > > > shooter, on a number of factors. Number one, by a wide margin, is your
    > > > portfolio. They're not even going to SEE your camera until they hire
    > > > you. If you do a good job for them, they won't care what you use.

    >
    > Right. I had a client who demanded that I give him
    > 4x5" slides. For several reasons 35 mm was the
    > much more reasonable platform. So I shot on Kodak
    > Ektar 25 (sadly so discontinued) and printed on
    > Vericolor print film - 4x5".
    >
    > When he received the slides he held them up, showed
    > them to almost everybody in the company and claimed
    > that there was no way to do it that good on 35mm.
    >
    > Weeks later I told him the truth over a glass of wine.
    >
    > He was shocked, thought for a while, and then told me
    > to raise my fee 20% for the future jobs with him,
    > and promised never ever again to tell me what my
    > tool should be.


    When he sobered up he sued you for fraud and breach of contract, right?

    -Sloopy
    Sloopy, Dec 11, 2003
    #13
  14. Michael

    stacey Guest

    Michael wrote:

    >
    > Looking forward: I still mostly enjoy artistic photography, but I would
    > like to make some money. I have some ideas I want to explore in
    > commercial photography. The problem that I have is that I don't a
    > "professional looking" camera. I wanted to buy a Canon 10D, but I've been
    > told they are all on back order around here. The 300D is cheaper, and
    > would probably be OK feature-wise, but I don't think it looks
    > professional enough.
    >
    > Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    > "Dress for Success" doctrine?
    >
    > Is anyone using the 300D working with customers?
    >



    Most of those people haven't a clue as to what the difference is between a
    300D and a 10D or the difference between any of the other dSLR's. How you
    come across and what your work looks like is what's important. If they are
    worried about gear, they are probably going to to looking for a 'blad
    anyway!

    --

    Stacey
    stacey, Dec 11, 2003
    #14
  15. Michael

    PhotoMan Guest

    "Michael" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns944D568789276michaelmflyahoocom@24.25.9.42...

    > Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    > "Dress for Success" doctrine?


    Does it matter to a master cabinet maker what color his hammer is"
    Joe Arnold

    BTW - I've had my dReb for 6 weeks, and have earned over $800 with it on a
    part-time basis, freelancing.
    PhotoMan, Dec 11, 2003
    #15
  16. "stacey" <> wrote:
    > Michael wrote:
    > >
    > > Is anyone using the 300D working with customers?

    >
    > Most of those people haven't a clue as to what the difference is between a
    > 300D and a 10D or the difference between any of the other dSLR's. How you
    > come across and what your work looks like is what's important. If they are
    > worried about gear, they are probably going to to looking for a 'blad
    > anyway!


    Used Hasselblad kits are pretty cheap nowadays. The lenses other than the
    80/2.8 are still off the wall expensive making the Hassy seriously
    impractical as a system. But as a fixed-lens SLR, a Hassy 500CM with a T*
    lens in good shape can be had used for US$1,050. That's pretty much the same
    price as the 300D.

    There's a new under US$500 scanner coming out from Epson (probably called
    the 4870) that will have over 2000 dpi of real resolution, so US$1500 gets
    you a 4400 x 4400 pixel (19MP) imaging system. Cropped to 8x10, that's still
    15MP, and even cropped to the 35mm aspect ratio (2:3) it's 12.5MP,
    competitive with the 1Ds.

    But you'll never be able to afford another lens.

    Still, you'd have the Hassy to impress the customers (you'd have to shoot a
    roll or two<g>) and the 300D for the rest of the shots.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
    David J. Littleboy, Dec 11, 2003
    #16
  17. In article <>,
    Sloopy says...

    (...)

    > When he sobered up


    Unlike you, a single glass of wine doesn't make
    my clients drunk. And I would never go for heavy
    drinking with a client.

    > he sued you for fraud and breach of contract, right?


    Not at all. He kept his promise never to tell
    me again which tool to use, and he paid me 20%
    extra because I showed him what the technology
    could do.

    --
    Michael Quack <>

    http://www.photoquack.de/glamour/1.htm
    http://www.photoquack.de/fashion/1.htm
    Michael Quack, Dec 11, 2003
    #17
  18. Michael

    zeitgeist Guest


    > The Past: My photography teacher in college 25 years ago had the nastiest
    > looking, most basic Pentax 35mm SLR I ever saw. He was a really good
    > photographer. He and I both shot artistic photographs. One day he asked
    > me if money was important to me because there wasn't a lot of money in
    > the art field. Soon after I was in Engineering school and a few years
    > later I became a software engineer. My camera sat in the closet for a
    > long time. Lots of regrets, but no sense in looking back.
    >
    > The Present: Well, I grew up to be a software design manager. I made good
    > money for a lot of years, but then I got laid off. I have a Canon G2 that
    > I brought to Italy earlier this year, and I took some great photographs.
    > But the more I use the camera, the more I miss the control that I had
    > with my Minolta SRT 102. I love digital photography. I don't miss sitting
    > in the darkroom swishing chemicals around.
    >
    > Looking forward: I still mostly enjoy artistic photography, but I would
    > like to make some money. I have some ideas I want to explore in
    > commercial photography. The problem that I have is that I don't a
    > "professional looking" camera. I wanted to buy a Canon 10D, but I've been
    > told they are all on back order around here. The 300D is cheaper, and
    > would probably be OK feature-wise, but I don't think it looks
    > professional enough.
    >
    > Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    > "Dress for Success" doctrine?
    >
    > Is anyone using the 300D working with customers?
    >



    I've been using a G2 for over a year now, dithering about the same way as
    you over what 'real' camera to get.

    However, I believe that even a disposable plastic camera would look
    professional if you dress it up right, by getting a bellows shade like a
    lindahl, you need the filter adapter which gives you a 52mm filter, then a
    step up ring to hold a series 8 filter holder, then attach a bellows. now
    you have a big assed contraption that really impresses the heck out of
    clients and people on the street, you will soon have security guards and
    other tin badge hitlers stopping you on the street to tell you that you
    can't take pictures here without a permit

    Back in the 80's when video was just becoming the rage at weddings, a friend
    was charging $300 and hour and just using a consumer vhs camera, competing
    with 'network' guys who used those big missile launchers and the huge belt
    packs for batteries. He just put a big assed hollywood panovision lens
    shade, I think it cost as much as the camera. Even the network tv crews
    would stop and look



    this reply is echoed to the z-prophoto mailing list at yahoo.com
    zeitgeist, Dec 11, 2003
    #18
  19. Michael

    Azzz1588 Guest

    In article <>, "(Pete Cresswell)"
    <> writes:

    >Considering that many customers don't know much about photography, they're
    >still
    >human beings and they have an innate need to judge you. Not knowing much
    >about
    >your craft, how're they going to judge you? I'd say by how you look and act
    >-
    >and, by extrapolation, how your equipment looks if/when they get to see it.




    Yes and no....

    I have a friend who is a pro photographer who took some pictures of
    my old girlfriend. (very stunning 6' tall lady :)

    We went out into the local park, and he took a few with an FM 2.
    He was carefull about the background, and how she posed, but
    he made it all look sooo easy, and effortless.
    She wanted to get into modeling, and then got a *pro* she met to
    take some portfolio pictures. Had all kinds of gear, was really a slick talker.
    Afterward, she used the pictures my friend took in the park ,and was
    more successfull with those, than what the "flashy looking"
    photographer took, and he shot a LOT of pic's

    Bottom line, is what the portfolio looks like, and wether you like the
    previous results he can SHOW you.

    I painted houses for a LONG time, and had long, over the shoulder length
    hair. I worked strictly by refferals, and it was my WORK that got me hired
    automatically, rather than looks. Price was not a concern to most,
    just the quality of work. And being able to go over thier friends house, and
    see the quality work, got me hired all the time !!

    The incredibly soft, silky long hair did work wonders on the single women
    though !!!
    Was worth several really nice relationships with beautifull ladies :)























    "Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
    Azzz1588, Dec 11, 2003
    #19
  20. Michael

    Brian Wasson Guest

    I'm both an occasional event photographer and an occasional purchaser
    of photographic services (I've worked in communications/PR for over 12
    years). While it is true that I look at a portfolio to determine
    whether or not to hire a freelancer and that "work speaks for itself,"
    I also think that at least kind of looking the part is important, too.

    My father, a life-long contractor, has often said that you can tell a
    professional by his work and his tools. While there are certainly
    plenty of poseurs out there with high $$ cameras and equipment, EVERY
    professional freelancer that I have worked with and hired has had a
    serious investment in equipment.

    That being said, our in-house digital camera is a Canon G3 with the
    wide-angle lens adaptor and an external Canon flash. Although it's
    simply a prosumer camera, whenever I use it in-house for work it
    always draws comments from staff. Throw a Lumiquest softbox on the
    flash and you'll really wow 'em!

    Michael <> wrote in message news:<Xns944D568789276michaelmflyahoocom@24.25.9.42>...
    > Am I being too much of a fashion snob, or is there any truth to the
    > "Dress for Success" doctrine?
    Brian Wasson, Dec 11, 2003
    #20
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