Drawing circles, boxes, and arrows in "The Gimp" freeware (onLinux)

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by jm, Sep 2, 2010.

  1. jm

    jm Guest

    Does anyone know where the "circle", "square", "ellipse" tool is on Gimp?
    Likewise with the "arrow" tool?

    Any basic photo editor should have this capability; but I can't seem to
    find it on Linux "The Gimp" photo editing freeware, version 2.6.8.

    If "The Gimp" doesn't have these basic tools; can you suggest a Linux
    freeware program that does?
    jm, Sep 2, 2010
    #1
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  2. jm

    jm Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:15:44 +0100, bugbear wrote:
    > http://docs.gimp.org/2.6/en/gimp-tools-selection.html


    Thanks Bugbear.

    Gimp is nothing like PC freeware. It's MUUUUUUCH more complex to do
    simple things! :(

    I just finished drawing ellipses and rectangles (circles and squares seem
    to elude me at the moment), with border fill and colors. It's very many
    steps to draw simple circle that Paint.NET would do in a single
    operation; but, I am able to do it now. Thanks.

    http://www.ehow.com/how_5356412_draw-circle-gimp.html

    Now I'm working on trying to figure out how to draw a curved arrow ... :)
    jm, Sep 2, 2010
    #2
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  3. jm

    jm Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:44:04 +0000, jm wrote:
    > Now I'm working on trying to figure out how to draw a curved arrow ...


    OK. Found out. There is no arrow tool in The Gimp.

    Luckily there is a plug in for arrows here:
    http://registry.gimp.org/node/20269
    jm, Sep 2, 2010
    #3
  4. jm

    pete Guest

    On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 10:44:04 +0000 (UTC), jm wrote:
    > On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:15:44 +0100, bugbear wrote:
    >> http://docs.gimp.org/2.6/en/gimp-tools-selection.html

    >
    > Thanks Bugbear.
    >
    > Gimp is nothing like PC freeware. It's MUUUUUUCH more complex to do
    > simple things! :(
    >
    > I just finished drawing ellipses and rectangles (circles and squares seem
    > to elude me at the moment), with border fill and colors. It's very many
    > steps to draw simple circle that Paint.NET would do in a single
    > operation; but, I am able to do it now. Thanks.
    >
    > http://www.ehow.com/how_5356412_draw-circle-gimp.html
    >
    > Now I'm working on trying to figure out how to draw a curved arrow ... :)
    >

    And The Gimp is not helped by the out of date FAQ. the very first entry I get
    on Google when looking for "gimp draw circle" throws up the Gimp FAQ
    from 2002 which tells us to hold the control key to constrain an ellipse
    to a circle.
    ref: http://www.netads.com/~meo/gimp/faq-user.html#circle

    In fact, you have to select the ellipse button, click the mouse THEN press
    the SHIFT key, then drag the mouse ... to get a circle. It's amazing that
    people still go to the effort of learning the Gimp, when it's so hard
    to do simple, basic operations.


    --
    http://www.thisreallyismyhost.99k.org/0220100912485419738.php
    pete, Sep 2, 2010
    #4
  5. jm

    rich Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 09:46:15 +0000, jm wrote:

    > Does anyone know where the "circle", "square", "ellipse" tool is on
    > Gimp? Likewise with the "arrow" tool?
    >
    > Any basic photo editor should have this capability; but I can't seem to
    > find it on Linux "The Gimp" photo editing freeware, version 2.6.8.
    >
    > If "The Gimp" doesn't have these basic tools; can you suggest a Linux
    > freeware program that does?


    Looking at your other post, you seem to have it sorted. ie discovered
    that the rectangle/elipse tool just makes a selection that you can then
    either 'stroke' or 'fill'

    Truthfully, boxes, cirlcles, arrows & shapes are best done on a vector
    editing app and apart from inkscape there is Xara Xtreame, old but still
    works, should be in the repo of whatever distro you are using.

    Back to gimp, for a (simple) curved arrow use the paths tool, then
    'stroke' the path, something like this.

    http://www.imageno.com/utiotw5hi411pic.html


    --
    rich
    rich, Sep 2, 2010
    #5
  6. jm

    jm Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:10:36 +0100, bugbear wrote:

    ..> Err. If you're trying to *draw*, use a vector package, not a raster
    one.
    ..> Inkscape is my personal preferance for that.

    Hi BugBear,
    I thank you for your patience. I didn't even realize there are "vector"
    vs "raster" editing packages ... I just want to annotate screenshots with
    text and circles and arrows. I did all that easily on PC freeware such as
    Paint.NET; so I "thought" it would be as simple on Linux.

    Maybe it is as simple on Linux ... just not with "The Gimp". :)

    I'll install the InkScape "vector graphics editor" and write back how it
    does with texting, circles, and arrows (sufficient to annotate a
    screenshot) ... because all I want to do is annotate screenshots (and I'm
    sure I can't be the only one to need these simple features).

    BTW, can you just give me a sentence or two as to why I'd want a "vector"
    versus a "raster" program?
    jm, Sep 2, 2010
    #6
  7. jm

    rich Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:51:41 +0000, rich wrote:

    > On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 09:46:15 +0000, jm wrote:
    >
    >> Does anyone know where the "circle", "square", "ellipse" tool is on
    >> Gimp? Likewise with the "arrow" tool?
    >>
    >> Any basic photo editor should have this capability; but I can't seem to
    >> find it on Linux "The Gimp" photo editing freeware, version 2.6.8.
    >>
    >> If "The Gimp" doesn't have these basic tools; can you suggest a Linux
    >> freeware program that does?

    >
    > Looking at your other post, you seem to have it sorted. ie discovered
    > that the rectangle/elipse tool just makes a selection that you can then
    > either 'stroke' or 'fill'
    >
    > Truthfully, boxes, cirlcles, arrows & shapes are best done on a vector
    > editing app and apart from inkscape there is Xara Xtreame, old but still
    > works, should be in the repo of whatever distro you are using.
    >
    > Back to gimp, for a (simple) curved arrow use the paths tool, then
    > 'stroke' the path, something like this.
    >
    > http://www.imageno.com/utiotw5hi411pic.html


    Damn, I keep forgetting, the already installed filter for circles, boxes,
    stars (no arrows) it is gfig found in the menu Filters -> Render ->Gfig


    --
    rich
    rich, Sep 2, 2010
    #7
  8. jm

    jm Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:02:53 +0000, pete wrote:
    ..> And The Gimp is not helped by the out of date FAQ.

    Not only that particular FAQ, but EVERYTHING that I found in Google
    (admittedly only the first page of results), was also incorrect!

    No wonder I couldn't get a simple square or circle to work.

    .. > In fact, you have to select the ellipse button, click the mouse THEN
    .. > press the SHIFT key, then drag the mouse ... to get a circle.

    Amazing! It worked! This difference of shift-click vs click-shift was
    EXACTLY why I couldn't get the square or circle to work in The Gimp! Both
    buttons need to be pressed at the same time, but you MUST press the left-
    mouse-button FIRST, hold it down, and then press the SHIFT button and
    then sweep out the square or circle. If you first press the shift and
    left-mouse button at the same time or at a slightly different time, you
    get an ellipse or rectangle every time (although you can sweep it to a
    square or circle manually).

    Thanks for that seemingly simple but critically important timing detail!

    ..> It's amazing that people still go to the effort of learning
    ..> the Gimp, when it's so hard to do simple, basic operations.

    I don't 'want' to use "The Gimp". I just want to annotate screenshots on
    Linux. I'm very accustomed to PC freeware - and the BEST for annotation
    of screenshots, bar none, is Paint.NET. Irfanview does lousy text
    editing; MS Paint doesn't draw as nice arrows; FastOne can't do texting
    like MS Paint can; etc.

    For screenshots, what do people recommend on Linux when all you really
    need are five basic tasks which you generally do in this sequence:
    a) Screen shot capture (Irfanview is better than The Gimp, for example)
    b) Cropping (again, Irfanview crop is easier than The Gimp, by far)
    c) Circling (either ellipses or rectangles to highlight the action)
    d) Arrowing (often used to point out select items in the screenshot)
    e) Texting (most PC freeware falls flat when it comes to texting)

    Of all of these five things, TEXTING is the only one that "The Gimp" does
    reasonably easily. The Gimp isn't nearly as good as Paint.NET for texting;
    but it's good enough. Cropping isn't too bad in The Gimp either; but
    that's one feature that almost all screenshot-editing software has so
    it's not much of a benefit.

    What freeware would you suggest (linux or otherwise) that can perform
    those five screenshot-annotation tasks better than "The Gimp" (on Linux)
    or "Paint.NET" (on Windoze)?
    jm, Sep 2, 2010
    #8
  9. jm

    jm Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 07:05:56 -0500, Neil wrote:
    ..> You haven't looked. Look at the top of the toolbox, there bare other
    ..> ways of getting them but you can look for them yourself.

    Actually, I must confess (embarrassingly), it absolutely never occurred
    to me that the "selection" tools were also the "drawing" tools in "The
    Gimp".

    I looked and looked and looked in "The Gimp" for the "drawing tools"
    which, don't exist. I found out through BugBear and the FAQs that the
    "selection" tool does double duty as a "drawing tool"; but that it takes
    a half-dozen steps to make it do what you want.

    There is NO ARROW TOOL native in "The Gimp" (and I couldn't get that
    aforementioned plug-in to work); so I'm still back in the stone age
    drawing arrows by hand with the polygon "selection" tool in "The Gimp".
    :(


    If you know of a better screenshot-annotation tool, please let me know.

    It need only do five things well:
    1. Screenshot tool (duh)
    2. Crop tool
    3. Circle tool (must be an open circle or ellipse or square or rectangle)
    4. Arrow tool (should have curved & strait shafts & various arrowheads)
    5. Texting tool (absolutely MUST show the texting as it occurs in situ &
    MUST NOT force the user to manually expand and move but MUST allow
    movement of the final results)

    Interestingly, only one PC freeware tool extent performs #3, #4, and #5
    above, and that's Paint.NET. So I generally screenshot in Irfanview, crop
    in Irfanview, and then circle/arrow/text in Paint.NET.

    But, on Linux, I'm stuck (so far) with the vastly inferior (to Paint.NET
    anyway), "The Gimp", and would WELCOME a better alternative for screenshot
    annotations!
    jm, Sep 2, 2010
    #9
  10. jm

    jm Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 13:16:25 +0000, jm wrote:
    .. > rectangle) 4. Arrow tool (should have curved & strait shafts & various

    Correction in spelling of "strait", lest you think me ignorant.. :)

    If you know of a better PC or Linux freeware screenshot-annotation tool
    that performs the following fast and easily, please let us know.

    1. Screenshot tool
    2. Crop tool
    3. Circle tool (must be an open circle so as to not obscure too much)
    4. Arrow tool (both curved & straight shafts & various arrowheads)
    5. Texting tool (this is the hardest of all requirements)

    The hard part are the last two items, arrows and texting.

    BTW, I do know that almost all freeware tools have "texting"
    capabilities; but once you've used Paint.NET, you'll see why Irfanview is
    inadequate, MS Paint is Neanderthal'ish, FastOne is problematic, etc.
    jm, Sep 2, 2010
    #10
  11. jm

    Bruce Guest

    Re: Drawing circles, boxes, and arrows in "The Gimp" freeware (on Linux)

    pete <> wrote:
    >
    >It's amazing that
    >people still go to the effort of learning the Gimp, when it's so hard
    >to do simple, basic operations.



    There is nothing "amazing" about it. People make the effort because
    The Gimp is powerful and costs nothing.
    Bruce, Sep 2, 2010
    #11
  12. jm

    pete Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 13:37:03 +0100, bugbear wrote:
    > pete wrote:
    >> On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 10:44:04 +0000 (UTC), jm wrote:
    >>> On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:15:44 +0100, bugbear wrote:
    >>>> http://docs.gimp.org/2.6/en/gimp-tools-selection.html
    >>> Thanks Bugbear.
    >>>
    >>> Gimp is nothing like PC freeware. It's MUUUUUUCH more complex to do
    >>> simple things! :(
    >>>
    >>> I just finished drawing ellipses and rectangles (circles and squares seem
    >>> to elude me at the moment), with border fill and colors. It's very many
    >>> steps to draw simple circle that Paint.NET would do in a single
    >>> operation; but, I am able to do it now. Thanks.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.ehow.com/how_5356412_draw-circle-gimp.html
    >>>
    >>> Now I'm working on trying to figure out how to draw a curved arrow ... :)
    >>>

    >> And The Gimp is not helped by the out of date FAQ. the very first entry I get
    >> on Google when looking for "gimp draw circle" throws up the Gimp FAQ
    >> from 2002 which tells us to hold the control key to constrain an ellipse
    >> to a circle.
    >> ref: http://www.netads.com/~meo/gimp/faq-user.html#circle
    >>
    >> In fact, you have to select the ellipse button, click the mouse THEN press
    >> the SHIFT key, then drag the mouse ... to get a circle. It's amazing that
    >> people still go to the effort of learning the Gimp, when it's so hard
    >> to do simple, basic operations.

    >
    > It's not the fault of Gimp (or the people who write it) that you've
    > chosen to use an out of date FAQ, dragged up from the site
    > of a Christian Fundamentalist.


    I didn't choose that link and I have no knowledge about the site's religious
    views (nor do I care, unless it's related to how the gimp draws circles).
    It simply came up as hit #1 from Google. That tells you something about
    its popularilty and would also be a strong probability that a lot of people
    who search for information about how to draw a circle using the gimp would
    find it too, and therefore follow its incorrect advice.

    Although it would be nice to know what made the gimp people decide to
    change their commands after it had become established. A responsible
    approach might have been to rename the application to the gimp 2 or
    the gimp 2003 - just to try to help people realise that there was a
    radical change to the way the (old) gimp worked and that the old documentation
    was now a waste of people's time.

    --
    http://www.thisreallyismyhost.99k.org/0220100914492324143.php
    pete, Sep 2, 2010
    #12
  13. jm

    rich Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 13:29:12 +0000, jm wrote:

    > On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 13:16:25 +0000, jm wrote: . > rectangle) 4. Arrow
    > tool (should have curved & strait shafts & various
    >
    > Correction in spelling of "strait", lest you think me ignorant.. :)


    straight - free from curves or angles.

    >
    > If you know of a better PC or Linux freeware screenshot-annotation tool
    > that performs the following fast and easily, please let us know.


    Been using gimp for several years, found that the arguments over what is
    better than 'other' pointless, use what you are familiar with.
    >
    > 1. Screenshot tool


    Almost certain to be a screenshot tool already installed, press the
    prntscn key and see what comes up, KDE the standard is ksnapshot, gnome
    is similar (gsnapshot?).
    The screenshot in gimp is in File -> Create -> Screenshot.

    > 2. Crop tool

    Either of the above will allow capture of the whole screen, a window or
    an area.

    > 3. Circle tool (must be an open circle so as to not obscure too much)

    Gimp - use the Gfig tool.

    >4.Arrow tool (both curved & straight shafts & various arrowheads)

    Have to confess this is a hard one. Maybe a brush - use it like a stamp.
    A quick search brings up pages of the damn things, maybe for straight ones
    <http://fr.sourceforge.jp/projects/freshmeat_arrow_brushes/releases/>
    or maybe
    <http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Graphics/GIMP-arrow-and-cursor-
    brushes-11700.shtml>

    >5 Texting tool (this is the hardest of all requirements)

    Not a problem with gimp, each time you use the text tool it is placed on
    its own layer. Select that layer for editing, moving etc.

    >
    > The hard part are the last two items, arrows and texting.
    >
    > BTW, I do know that almost all freeware tools have "texting"
    > capabilities; but once you've used Paint.NET, you'll see why Irfanview
    > is inadequate, MS Paint is Neanderthal'ish, FastOne is problematic, etc.


    finally
    A screen shot of a capture by gimp showing a screen capture by ksnapshot
    of an annotation.
    http://www.imageno.com/ooqhqzj16pb5pic.html (LOL)


    --
    rich
    rich, Sep 2, 2010
    #13
  14. jm

    Bruce Guest

    Re: Drawing circles, boxes, and arrows in "The Gimp" freeware (on Linux)

    pete <> wrote:
    >A responsible
    >approach might have been to rename the application to the gimp 2 or
    >the gimp 2003 - just to try to help people realise that there was a
    >radical change to the way the (old) gimp worked and that the old documentation
    >was now a waste of people's time.



    What do you expect for free? If you aren't happy, I'm sure they'll
    refund every penny you paid them.

    In the meantime, stop whining, or go pay some money for software that
    is more to your liking.
    Bruce, Sep 2, 2010
    #14
  15. jm

    ray Guest

    On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:44:04 +0000, jm wrote:

    > On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:15:44 +0100, bugbear wrote:
    >> http://docs.gimp.org/2.6/en/gimp-tools-selection.html

    >
    > Thanks Bugbear.
    >
    > Gimp is nothing like PC freeware. It's MUUUUUUCH more complex to do
    > simple things! :(
    >
    > I just finished drawing ellipses and rectangles (circles and squares
    > seem to elude me at the moment), with border fill and colors. It's very
    > many steps to draw simple circle that Paint.NET would do in a single
    > operation; but, I am able to do it now. Thanks.


    You want a paint program, then try a paint program, like gpaint.


    >
    > http://www.ehow.com/how_5356412_draw-circle-gimp.html
    >
    > Now I'm working on trying to figure out how to draw a curved arrow ...
    > :)
    ray, Sep 2, 2010
    #15
  16. jm

    OG Guest

    Re: Drawing circles, boxes, and arrows in "The Gimp" freeware (on Linux)

    "jm" <> wrote in message
    news:i5o8r8$s4n$...
    > On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 13:16:25 +0000, jm wrote:
    > . > rectangle) 4. Arrow tool (should have curved & strait shafts & various
    >
    > Correction in spelling of "strait", lest you think me ignorant.. :)
    >
    > If you know of a better PC or Linux freeware screenshot-annotation tool
    > that performs the following fast and easily, please let us know.
    >
    > 1. Screenshot tool
    > 2. Crop tool
    > 3. Circle tool (must be an open circle so as to not obscure too much)
    > 4. Arrow tool (both curved & straight shafts & various arrowheads)
    > 5. Texting tool (this is the hardest of all requirements)
    >
    > The hard part are the last two items, arrows and texting.
    >
    > BTW, I do know that almost all freeware tools have "texting"
    > capabilities; but once you've used Paint.NET, you'll see why Irfanview is
    > inadequate, MS Paint is Neanderthal'ish, FastOne is problematic, etc.


    Personally, I would grab the screenshot, crop it in 'whatever', drop it into
    an Open Office Writer document and add circles, lines and text boxes using
    the drawing toolbar.

    If you want to 'lock' the elements, print it to a pdf.
    OG, Sep 2, 2010
    #16
  17. jm

    M.L. Guest

    Re: Drawing circles, boxes, and arrows in "The Gimp" freeware (on Linux)


    >What freeware would you suggest (linux or otherwise) that can perform
    >those five screenshot-annotation tasks better than "The Gimp" (on Linux)
    >or "Paint.NET" (on Windoze)?


    a) Screen shot capture (Irfanview - windows)
    b) Cropping (Irfanview - windows)
    c) Circling (Serif DrawPlusSE - windows)
    d) Arrowing (Serif DrawPlusSE - windows)
    e) Texting (Serif DrawPlusSE - windows)

    >e) Texting (most PC freeware falls flat when it comes to texting)


    I doubt you've tried most freeware Windows programs for text handling.
    Windows programs like Serif DrawPlusSE (vector), and Artweaver or
    Serif PhotoPlus SE (paint/image editing) do an outstanding job of
    handling text, better than Paint.NET.

    Artweaver
    OS: Win 2000/XP/Vista
    http://www.artweaver.de/home-en/

    Irfanview
    OS: Win NT/9x/ME/2000/XP/2003/Vista
    www.irfanview.com

    Serif DrawPlusSE (registerware)
    OS: Win XP/Vista
    www.freeserifsoftware.com

    Serif PhotoPlus SE (registerware)
    OS: Win XP/Vista
    www.freeserifsoftware.com
    M.L., Sep 2, 2010
    #17
  18. jm

    Craig Guest

    On 09/02/2010 06:09 AM, jm wrote:
    > What freeware would you suggest (linux or otherwise) that can perform
    > those five screenshot-annotation tasks better than "The Gimp" (on Linux)


    For Linux, I like Shutter <http://shutter-project.org>. Fwiw, Using
    GIMP as a printscreen annotator would be pretty awkward. There are a
    lot of apps better than GIMP for that particular task.

    hth,
    --
    -Craig
    Craig, Sep 2, 2010
    #18
  19. jm

    John S Guest

    Re: Drawing circles, boxes, and arrows in "The Gimp" freeware (on Linux)

    On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:46:15 +0000 (UTC), jm wrote:

    > Does anyone know where the "circle", "square", "ellipse" tool is on Gimp?
    > Likewise with the "arrow" tool?
    >
    > Any basic photo editor should have this capability; but I can't seem to
    > find it on Linux "The Gimp" photo editing freeware, version 2.6.8.
    >
    > If "The Gimp" doesn't have these basic tools; can you suggest a Linux
    > freeware program that does?


    Interesting - after reading through the comments I decided to try capturing
    a screen shot and creating a circle with arrow and annotation, using
    software already installed on my computer (Windows XP).

    Fired up MWSnap to grab a screen shot and saved it to the desktop as a
    ..jpg.

    The started Open Office, inserted the .jpg into a blank document, used the
    drawing and text tools to quickly draw a coloured circle and arrow pointing
    to something on the screen shot - overlay some text in a text box.

    Now I've got what I want, and if I want to incorporate it into a document,
    well it's already in a blank document. If I want the result as a picture I
    would need to use my MWSnap capture programme again to capture what I'm
    looking at.

    Open Office is available in Linux. Don't know about MWSnap, but I guess
    there are plenty of alternative candidates to do the same thing.

    Not suggesting you use this method - you wouldn't want to install Open
    Office for this small type of job (like using a bulldozer to dig the
    garden). However, if you already were using Open Office, it gives you all
    the tools you need, once you've captured the screen shot.

    Cheers,

    John S
    John S, Sep 3, 2010
    #19
  20. jm

    pete Guest

    On Fri, 03 Sep 2010 09:29:58 +0100, bugbear wrote:
    > Neil wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Too late now I suppose but why didn't you go to the gimp website?

    >
    > Too much work - apparently the Gimp project people
    > are *somehow* responsible for "pete" finding
    > an archived version of their old documentation.
    >
    > Which is a little like blaming Chevrolet because you're using
    > a 1960's maintainance manual you found in a thrift store
    > when working on your 2010 Corvette.
    >

    The reason I didn't go to the gimp website is very simple - I don't
    keep it bookmarked and I don't know it's name. It's not unreasonable
    that if you do a google seach for the answer to a problem that you'll
    find (sooner or later) what the answer is. The BIG point is that
    the very first hit was to an out of date answer: not just an old
    answer, but one that was fundementally wrong, (yet appears to be
    authoratative). Anyone who needed to ask that question would be
    forgiven, except by some very superior, scoffing types, for assuming
    it was correect - and that when it didn't work for them, that there
    was a deeper issue - which for some reason was unexplained. At
    which point a reasonable response would be:
    "This product doesn't work - I'll go find one that is better".

    Quite why that site should rank higher than the gimp's own website
    I do not know. Since google ranking seems to correlate with popularity
    (or how many other sites link to) of an answer, the conclusion I drew
    was that anyone else, who was faced with the same question and asked
    google for the same search, would get the response I did. How would
    that person know that back in the mists of time, the gimp decided
    to make some radical changes to some of their basic commands?
    Answer: they couldn't know - because the name of the application
    does not give any warning that things have been changed: as a
    qualifier to the app name might imply.

    So far as picking up the wrong car manual goes, you've made a faulty
    comparison. It's more like calling up the yellow pages for a car
    dealership only to be told that the main-dealer in your area is
    a run down little chop-shop that hasn't sold that range for 8 years.
    For some reason you seem to think that would be the callers fault?

    --
    http://www.thisreallyismyhost.99k.org/022010091838331873.php
    pete, Sep 3, 2010
    #20
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