Dpreview wants to cater to the simple people

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Dec 13, 2008.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    RichA, Dec 13, 2008
    #1
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  2. RichA

    PixelPix Guest

    On Dec 14, 5:04 am, John Navas <> wrote:
    > On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:10:25 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    > wrote in
    > <>:
    >
    > >Boo hoo hoo!  The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
    > >them.  They long for the simplicity of their iphones.  Figures an
    > >Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.

    >
    > >http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2008/12/the-case-for-a.html

    >
    > I think the editorial is spot on.
    > --



    Agreed!
     
    PixelPix, Dec 13, 2008
    #2
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  3. John Navas wrote:
    > On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:58:23 -0500, "RichA" <>

    []
    >> Only for people for whom reading an owner's manual is like pulling
    >> teeth.

    >
    > It shouldn't be necessary to read an owner's manual to use the
    > product. I can get in any car and drive it without reading the
    > owner's manual. It's called standardized controls.


    People should test-drive the camera they are interested in. I've had no
    problems with any of the Nikon digital or film cameras I've owned - SLR,
    compact and DSLR. I chose Nikon DSLR over Canon because of the handling -
    much more important than how the manual is written, at least to me. Most
    of the controls of today's cameras are fairly standardised, perhaps not
    quite as much as those of a car.

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 14, 2008
    #3
  4. John Navas wrote:
    []
    > Good advice, but how do you think they should do that? I think that
    > generally means going to a local dealer, and I think that creates an
    > obligation to buy from that dealer -- doing that and then buying
    > online to get a cheaper price (from a seller that's not paying for a
    > retail storefront and demo equipment) isn't reasonable or fair. How
    > many people do you think are prepared to do that?


    My takes on that has been that I am prepared to pay a small markup for
    local service, and the prices at my local Jessops (UK chain store) are
    reasonable. When I last checked, the prices at the small independant
    shops were a lot higher and when I asked the shops about this they said
    that the Internet price I could get was cheaper than the price they paid
    wholesale. At least one of those shops has now closed.

    >> Most
    >> of the controls of today's cameras are fairly standardised, perhaps
    >> not quite as much as those of a car.

    >
    > My own take is that they aren't even close to that kind of
    > standardization, that camera controls vary greatly, especially from
    > manufacturer to manufacturer, and that it all too often takes
    > considerable time and effort to learn a new layout.


    I happened to be in the situation of having a new compact camera one
    evening, and needing to use it for a one-off event the next day. It was
    very similar to other cameras - a four way dial, on-off switch, menu to
    disable flash, zoom control, image replay function. Of course, learning
    the fine points may have required some time, but basic usage was there
    right away (in fact the camera might have failed for its target audience
    otherwise). Another occasion - I was helping a friend buy their first
    digital camera. They had decided on a Canon A640 (IIRC). I had no
    problems just picking that camera up and using it. I'm sure you could
    have done the same.

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 14, 2008
    #4
  5. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems John Navas <> wrote:
    > On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:58:23 -0500, "RichA" <>
    > wrote in <>:


    >>"John Navas" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:10:25 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    >>> wrote in
    >>> <>:
    >>>
    >>>>Boo hoo hoo! The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
    >>>>them. They long for the simplicity of their iphones. Figures an
    >>>>Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.
    >>>>
    >>>>http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2008/12/the-case-for-a.html
    >>>
    >>> I think the editorial is spot on.

    >>
    >>Only for people for whom reading an owner's manual is like pulling teeth.


    > It shouldn't be necessary to read an owner's manual to use the product.
    > I can get in any car and drive it without reading the owner's manual.
    > It's called standardized controls.


    And that's the reason one needs to read camera manuals: lack of
    standardised controls.

    --
    Chris Malcolm
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 14, 2008
    #5
  6. RichA

    Ray Fischer Guest

    RichA <> wrote:
    >Boo hoo hoo! The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
    >them. They long for the simplicity of their iphones. Figures an
    >Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.
    >
    >http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2008/12/the-case-for-a.html


    You are an idiot.

    Just as an example I will point out that the number of computers being
    sold that still provide only a command-line interface is roughly zero.
    Despite the fact that eleitist snobs like you think that everything
    shoudl be difficult, then people who have the dollars don't want to
    spend their money on needlessly complex products.

    --
    Ray Fischer
     
    Ray Fischer, Dec 14, 2008
    #6
  7. John Navas wrote:
    []
    > I care about the fine points -- hit or miss (aka basic usage) isn't
    > good enough. I rarely rely entirely on the camera -- I'm usually
    > tweaking a bit, exposure compensation, forced flash, backlighting
    > compensation, selective focus, depth of field control, shutter speed
    > control.
    > I suspect you're much the same. ;)


    I tweak occasionally, yes, but usually I'm more interested in getting the
    picture. These tweaks may be no more than learning how to use the radio
    or GPS system on a new car, while the basics of driving or photographing
    can be taken for granted. Well, almost.

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 14, 2008
    #7
  8. John Navas wrote:
    []
    > I guess you're just more intuitive or clever or lucky than I am --
    > I badly blew a shot just this past week because I couldn't figure out
    > how to set forced flash.


    Simply setting flash on/off/auto is usually OK - but setting the flash
    power might need the manual!

    <G>

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 14, 2008
    #8
  9. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, John Navas
    <> wrote:

    > >People should test-drive the camera they are interested in.

    >
    > Good advice, but how do you think they should do that? I think that
    > generally means going to a local dealer, and I think that creates an
    > obligation to buy from that dealer -- doing that and then buying online
    > to get a cheaper price (from a seller that's not paying for a retail
    > storefront and demo equipment) isn't reasonable or fair. How many
    > people do you think are prepared to do that?


    many people do go to a local camera store and then buy on line because
    the local prices are often ridiculous and the stores refuse to budge on
    price. also, there are stores where the cameras are all out on display
    so you don't have to bother any salesperson at all and you can take as
    much time as you want playing with them without any obligation
    whatsoever.
     
    nospam, Dec 14, 2008
    #9
  10. RichA

    Paul Furman Guest

    Re: |GG| Dpreview wants to cater to the simple people

    RichA wrote:
    > Boo hoo hoo! The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
    > them. They long for the simplicity of their iphones. Figures an
    > Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.
    >
    > http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2008/12/the-case-for-a.html


    Of course everyone wants their camera to have an intuitive interface but
    getting 100s of options to fit is hard. Things do improve though. Moving
    up from a D70 to D200 I noticed a significant improvement in the menu
    system and the body has more knobs, dials & buttons. For menu diving,
    the D200 has a 'recent settings' menu so it's easy to find the stuff you
    were twiddling and the most used goes to the top of that list. The D700
    has yet another nice level of improvement for the menu & controls and
    instead of recent settings it has 'my menu' where you have to
    specifically add items but then you can put the one you want on the top
    and using something odd once doesn't automatically clutter things up
    like the D200.

    Children have no problem grabbing a new camera or cell phone and
    negotiating the buttons, even with an advanced DSLR. They are fairly
    standardized.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 14, 2008
    #10
  11. RichA

    Charles Guest

    Re: |GG| Dpreview wants to cater to the simple people

    "Paul Furman" <> wrote in message
    news:yNf1l.9949$...


    > Children have no problem grabbing a new camera or cell phone and
    > negotiating the buttons, even with an advanced DSLR. They are fairly
    > standardized.


    Children who can negotiate the menus and buttons in an advanced DSLR and
    produce technically correct shots are destined for Mensa, Nobel awards,
    Fulbright scholarships and even more.
     
    Charles, Dec 14, 2008
    #11
  12. RichA wrote:
    []
    > I would LOVE it if the industry brought out a DSLR that offered the
    > same level of control as a 1980s entry-levle SLR. Or better yet, a
    > "P" setting, no manual focus, and an auto pop-up flash.

    []

    I think you will find that most entry-level DSLRs already offer that. And
    more, of course. Just use superglue to stop the dials being changed.....

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 15, 2008
    #12
  13. Re: |GG| Dpreview wants to cater to the simple people

    Charles wrote:
    > "Paul Furman" <> wrote in message
    > news:yNf1l.9949$...
    >
    >
    >> Children have no problem grabbing a new camera or cell phone and
    >> negotiating the buttons, even with an advanced DSLR. They are fairly
    >> standardized.

    >
    > Children who can negotiate the menus and buttons in an advanced DSLR
    > and produce technically correct shots are destined for Mensa, Nobel
    > awards, Fulbright scholarships and even more.


    The future is bright, then!

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 15, 2008
    #13
  14. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems RichA <> wrote:

    > "Ray Fischer" <> wrote in message
    > news:494559bb$0$2756$...
    >> RichA <> wrote:
    >>>Boo hoo hoo! The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
    >>>them. They long for the simplicity of their iphones. Figures an
    >>>Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.
    >>>
    >>>http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2008/12/the-case-for-a.html

    >>
    >> You are an idiot.
    >>
    >> Just as an example I will point out that the number of computers being
    >> sold that still provide only a command-line interface is roughly zero.
    >> Despite the fact that eleitist snobs like you think that everything
    >> shoudl be difficult, then people who have the dollars don't want to
    >> spend their money on needlessly complex products.


    > I would LOVE it if the industry brought out a DSLR that offered the same
    > level of control as a 1980s entry-levle SLR.


    I'd be surprised more than a few quirky DSLRs were incapable of being
    set into such a mode. Certainly the few I've tried can be.

    > Or better yet, a "P" setting,
    > no manual focus, and an auto pop-up flash.


    I'd be surprised if the few that offer a pop-up flash can't be so
    configured.

    > Then the simple bastards crying
    > and complaining would have what they always wanted: The rebirth of $80.00
    > 1980's compact 35mm cameras with the image quality of a DSLR.


    How would it be compact as well? Are you asking for a DSLR with an
    unusually small sensor? If so, how would it get DSLR image quality?

    --
    Chris Malcolm
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 15, 2008
    #14
  15. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Stephen Bishop <> wrote:
    > On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:10:25 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    > wrote:


    >>Boo hoo hoo! The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
    >>them. They long for the simplicity of their iphones. Figures an
    >>Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.
    >>
    >>http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2008/12/the-case-for-a.html


    > Photography is art. Art isn't supposed to be all about geeky
    > technology.


    Where does that "supposed" come from? Sounds to me as though it comes
    from a teacher in one of those defective educational systems which
    specialise children early into either art or science, Snow's famous
    cultural divide.

    The only arts free of geeky technology are those where the geeky
    artists have already done all the hard work and provided the market
    with simple easy to use stuff. Even drawing was pretty geeky when you
    had to make your own pencils and paper.

    --
    Chris Malcolm
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 15, 2008
    #15
  16. RichA

    bowzer Guest

    "RichA" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "bowser" <> wrote in message
    > news:49450e0f$0$11358$...
    >>
    >> "RichA" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>>
    >>> "John Navas" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:10:25 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    >>>> wrote in
    >>>> <>:
    >>>>
    >>>>>Boo hoo hoo! The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
    >>>>>them. They long for the simplicity of their iphones. Figures an
    >>>>>Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2008/12/the-case-for-a.html
    >>>>
    >>>> I think the editorial is spot on.
    >>>
    >>> Only for people for whom reading an owner's manual is like pulling
    >>> teeth.

    >>
    >> count me as one of those who reads the manuals, but hates the interfaces
    >> and menu systems on pretty much all digital cameras. I put up with them,
    >> but truly hate them and would welcom a few knobs and dials in lieu of
    >> drilling down a menu system for a simple comand.

    >
    > I wish you creatures would make up your minds. "I want them smaller!" "I
    > want lots of buttons!" You can frigging have BOTH!


    I didn't ask for both, and have no need for any sort of ultra-tiny camera.
    You may have confused me with someone else. And I'm talking about the
    control systems on most digital cameras, not just P&S or SLR. Frankly, they
    all suck.
     
    bowzer, Dec 15, 2008
    #16
  17. RichA

    bowzer Guest

    "Pat Dalton" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:02:13 -0500, "bowser" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>count me as one of those who reads the manuals, but hates the interfaces
    >>and
    >>menu systems on pretty much all digital cameras. I put up with them, but
    >>truly hate them and would welcom a few knobs and dials in lieu of drilling
    >>down a menu system for a simple comand.

    >
    > Then you need to learn to shop. One of my most favorite P&S cameras has
    > one
    > button under every finger when holding the camera as one normally would.
    > Manual
    > zoom and focus rings included. It's like having a keyboard with all
    > fingers on
    > home-row. No need to ever enter any menu to change all the settings
    > normally
    > used. Change any setting you need quicker than blinking an eye when you
    > get your
    > eye-hand coordination worked out after a few days of use.


    What camera is that?

    >
    > You would do well with reading manuals before buying any camera. This is
    > why I'd
    > never buy a Nikon anything. The last time I was making a decision I did
    > just
    > that and quickly ruled out Nikons. Their menu systems are so convoluted
    > and
    > annoying, just reading the Nikon manual is a major headache. I can only
    > imagine
    > how many missed shots you'd get by trying to use their menus. Buying a
    > Nikon
    > digital would be just as good as not having any camera at all. I didn't
    > even
    > have to test-drive one to know it would be a huge mistake.


    I do, but there's more to buying a camera than a menu system. I also take
    into consideration little things like, say, image quality, range of lenses,
    etc. But tell me why the mirror lockup on my 5D is buried deep inside a menu
    system?
     
    bowzer, Dec 15, 2008
    #17
  18. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Stephen Bishop <> wrote:
    > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:24:44 -0500, "RichA" <>
    > wrote:


    >>"Stephen Bishop" <> wrote in message
    >>news:p...
    >>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:10:25 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Boo hoo hoo! The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
    >>>>them. They long for the simplicity of their iphones. Figures an
    >>>>Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.
    >>>>
    >>>>http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2008/12/the-case-for-a.html
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Photography is art. Art isn't supposed to be all about geeky
    >>> technology. If you're more happy with all the techno-frills, then
    >>> just get the most complicated camera you can find and be happy with
    >>> it.

    >>
    >>Please, tell me a time when cameras aimed at enthusiasts where made with an
    >>shutter button and nothing else? Take a look at a Sinar view camera some
    >>day.


    > Actually, the very first "enthusiast" cameras were exactly like that.
    > That's what launched Kodak over a century ago. Their marketing
    > slogan was "You push the button and we'll do the rest." Things have
    > evolved quite a bit since then.


    >>Even artists fret over what kind of materials to use, the venue they use it
    >>in, the conditions of the venue, etc.


    > By artists, I assume you mean "painters." Yes, they are concerned
    > with materials, but never to the level of detail that camera
    > enthusiasts are. You won't find any usenet forums where they argue
    > endlessly about what brand of brush is better or how many bristles
    > are needed to get a sharp painting.


    Your ignorance of the history of painting is showing. The Renaissance
    painters were very concerned about the best ways of making pigments,
    paints, and varnishes for different kinds of painting, because you had
    to make your own to get the best quality results.

    >>But if people are simply too LAZY to learn, then to Hell with them, instant
    >>gratification is not guaranteed by a complex DSLR, it's the domain of the
    >>$100 P&S, but as with everything else designed to gratify instantly, the
    >>payoff is often sub-standard. Polaroid was the same thing in the 1970s and
    >>80s.


    > Photography has the unique position among the other arts in that it is
    > divided into two fairly well-defined camps: 1) The enthusiasts who
    > are obsessed with the gear and the process, and 2) The artists who
    > choose the gear that suits them best and then get on with creating
    > images.


    Today's mass production consumer industries have made the techology
    needed for most mass arts easily available to the non-technical
    artist, but at the high end of any art it's not hard to find creative
    technical people, some of them top ranking artists, pushing the
    technology and helping its development.

    For example I know musicians who take an extreme technical interest in
    their instruments, sometimes to the extent of making them or having
    them specially made, and others who simply buy a good brand and get on
    with making music. The same spectrum between being mostly concerned
    with the technology and mostly concerned with the art goes for pretty
    much any art I've dipped a toe into.

    --
    Chris Malcolm
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 15, 2008
    #18
  19. John Navas wrote:
    []
    > Not power, just forced, which would have needed the manual, and we had
    > neither the manual nor time to read it.


    OK, IIRC the flash setting was a right press on the four-way selector,
    when in taking mode. It had a flash symbol next to it, which was a good
    clue! I can't recall what happens if you simply pop-up the flash on my
    DSLR.

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 15, 2008
    #19
  20. John Navas <> wrote:
    > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:27:35 GMT, "David J Taylor"
    > <-this-part.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote in
    > <X_d1l.6293$>:


    >>John Navas wrote:
    >>[]
    >>> I care about the fine points -- hit or miss (aka basic usage) isn't
    >>> good enough. I rarely rely entirely on the camera -- I'm usually
    >>> tweaking a bit, exposure compensation, forced flash, backlighting
    >>> compensation, selective focus, depth of field control, shutter speed
    >>> control.
    >>> I suspect you're much the same. ;)

    >>
    >>I tweak occasionally, yes, but usually I'm more interested in getting the
    >>picture. These tweaks may be no more than learning how to use the radio
    >>or GPS system on a new car, while the basics of driving or photographing
    >>can be taken for granted. Well, almost.


    > I guess you're just more intuitive or clever or lucky than I am --
    > I badly blew a shot just this past week because I couldn't figure out
    > how to set forced flash.


    I recall being on holiday with a new camera whose manual I'd been
    through carefully twice, so I thought I knew it well and left the
    manual at home. Half way through the holiday the pop-up flash stopped
    working. An hour of menu searching and experiment convinced me it was
    broken. But I met another user who said he suspected I'd accidentally
    set an odd option in an obscure place. He later checked his manual and
    emailed me the solution.

    I had a similar experience with another camera which suddenly started
    refusing to do exposures longer than 30 secs, again when I was without
    the manual. In that case an hour of menu searching and experiment
    eventually found me the solution.

    Yet I'm the kind of technical geek who gets asked to set people's
    watches in aeroplanes, and who likes to read technical operating
    manuals for fun.

    --
    Chris Malcolm
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 15, 2008
    #20
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