Does Epson Stylus Photo 700 really do ICM at all?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Michael A. Covington, Nov 18, 2003.

  1. Greetings,

    After an evening of experimenting, I am beginning to doubt whether the ICM
    color management of my Epson Stylus Photo 700 has any effect at all.

    As I understand it, ICM should map the colors of the screen onto the color
    gamut of the printer, preserving hues as best it can while reducing the
    saturation as needed. This is a moderately complicated adjustment in a 2-
    or 3-dimensional space, which is why we have ICM to do it for us.

    And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
    Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
    Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
    700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
    Photoshop 6.

    Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if out
    of gamut, and too warm.

    However, if I choose fully manual color management in the printer driver, I
    can turn down the saturation, turn up the cyan, and get a reasonable
    facsimile of what is on the screen. This is not as sophisticated as ICM but
    it's at least a way of getting prints that, on the first try, don't look
    *grossly* different from the screen.

    Am I missing something here? Is there a secret ICM driver for this printer,
    other than the one that comes with the driver? Something else I should
    check? I tried quite a variety of printer settings, and except for fully
    manual color adjustment, they all seemed exactly the same (and identically
    wrong).

    Also, what does PhotoEnhance do? I wasn't using it because my understanding
    is that it attempts to adjust the color automatically.

    Last: Is there a *cheap* inkjet printer now on the market that will
    outperform the Stylus Photo 700? I'm at the point of wondering whether to
    spend $45 on another set of cartridges for this old printer that I never
    quite mastered, or get something new for $100 to $200 that will actually do
    color matching. Canon? HP? A newer Epson?

    Thanks!


    Michael Covington -- www.covingtoninnovations.com
    Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
    and (new) How to Use a Computerized Telescope
     
    Michael A. Covington, Nov 18, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Michael A. Covington

    Ed E. Guest

    I found Epson's support for the 700 to be extremely disappointing. I always
    had problems with their software and drivers on any OS beyond Windows 98.
    But when it worked, it worked nicely. I couldn't get the colors quite where
    they needed to be, but the image was still acceptable and very crisp. I
    couldn't use anything other than Epson cartridges if I wanted colors
    anywhere near accurate.

    There has been quite a bit of advancement in technology since that printer
    has been discontinued (about 5 years now?) I'd suggest reviewing some of
    the newer printers and seeing if one doesn't more closely suit your needs.
    The next time you go to buy ink, see if that money makes sense to invest in
    something that will get you to where you want to be.
     
    Ed E., Nov 18, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. "Ed E." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I found Epson's support for the 700 to be extremely disappointing. I

    always
    > had problems with their software and drivers on any OS beyond Windows 98.
    > But when it worked, it worked nicely. I couldn't get the colors quite

    where
    > they needed to be, but the image was still acceptable and very crisp. I
    > couldn't use anything other than Epson cartridges if I wanted colors
    > anywhere near accurate.
    >
    > There has been quite a bit of advancement in technology since that printer
    > has been discontinued (about 5 years now?) I'd suggest reviewing some of
    > the newer printers and seeing if one doesn't more closely suit your needs.
    > The next time you go to buy ink, see if that money makes sense to invest

    in
    > something that will get you to where you want to be.


    That is exactly what I'm doing. Instead of $45 worth of ink, I'm wondering
    about $100 to $200 worth of new printer (with ink).

    Do later Epsons support ICM properly?

    Should I be looking at Canon? i960? What models?

    This is for relatively low-volume printing of photographs. Many of them are
    scientific images where automatic color balancing is *not* wanted; I want to
    adjust the color on my screen and then print what I see. I know about gamut
    limitations, etc., so I'm not naively expecting the printout to look just
    like the screen image, but I'd at least like to have technologies such as
    ICM help me out a little.

    Looking at the Epson Stylus Photo 700 manual, it looks like ICM was an
    afterthought -- the manual indicates that it's there but gives almost no
    indication of what to expect from it. Maybe they never really implemented
    it, and all these years, their ICM profile is really just a piece of
    temporary do-nothing code.
     
    Michael A. Covington, Nov 18, 2003
    #3
  4. Michael A. Covington

    Ed E. Guest


    > Do later Epsons support ICM properly?
    >
    > Should I be looking at Canon? i960? What models?


    I wish I could be of more help here, but I take all of my stuff to a local
    lab to have printed now. In my case, it out to be less expensive, look more
    professional, and the prints last much longer. I'm hoping that some others
    here can be of some help to you.
     
    Ed E., Nov 18, 2003
    #4
  5. Michael A. Covington

    Safetymom123 Guest

    I would look at the new Epsons. They give great results. Also have you
    adjusted your monitor so you are seeing the image correctly.


    "Michael A. Covington" <> wrote
    in message news:...
    > Greetings,
    >
    > After an evening of experimenting, I am beginning to doubt whether the ICM
    > color management of my Epson Stylus Photo 700 has any effect at all.
    >
    > As I understand it, ICM should map the colors of the screen onto the color
    > gamut of the printer, preserving hues as best it can while reducing the
    > saturation as needed. This is a moderately complicated adjustment in a 2-
    > or 3-dimensional space, which is why we have ICM to do it for us.
    >
    > And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set

    the
    > Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
    > Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
    > 700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
    > Photoshop 6.
    >
    > Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if

    out
    > of gamut, and too warm.
    >
    > However, if I choose fully manual color management in the printer driver,

    I
    > can turn down the saturation, turn up the cyan, and get a reasonable
    > facsimile of what is on the screen. This is not as sophisticated as ICM

    but
    > it's at least a way of getting prints that, on the first try, don't look
    > *grossly* different from the screen.
    >
    > Am I missing something here? Is there a secret ICM driver for this

    printer,
    > other than the one that comes with the driver? Something else I should
    > check? I tried quite a variety of printer settings, and except for fully
    > manual color adjustment, they all seemed exactly the same (and identically
    > wrong).
    >
    > Also, what does PhotoEnhance do? I wasn't using it because my

    understanding
    > is that it attempts to adjust the color automatically.
    >
    > Last: Is there a *cheap* inkjet printer now on the market that will
    > outperform the Stylus Photo 700? I'm at the point of wondering whether to
    > spend $45 on another set of cartridges for this old printer that I never
    > quite mastered, or get something new for $100 to $200 that will actually

    do
    > color matching. Canon? HP? A newer Epson?
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    >
    > Michael Covington -- www.covingtoninnovations.com
    > Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
    > and (new) How to Use a Computerized Telescope
    >
    >
    >
     
    Safetymom123, Nov 18, 2003
    #5
  6. "Michael A. Covington" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > Greetings,
    >
    > After an evening of experimenting, I am beginning to doubt whether the ICM
    > color management of my Epson Stylus Photo 700 has any effect at all.
    >
    > As I understand it, ICM should map the colors of the screen onto the color
    > gamut of the printer, preserving hues as best it can while reducing the
    > saturation as needed. This is a moderately complicated adjustment in a 2-
    > or 3-dimensional space, which is why we have ICM to do it for us.
    >
    > And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
    > Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
    > Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
    > 700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
    > Photoshop 6.
    >
    > Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if out
    > of gamut, and too warm.
    >
    > However, if I choose fully manual color management in the printer driver, I
    > can turn down the saturation, turn up the cyan, and get a reasonable
    > facsimile of what is on the screen. This is not as sophisticated as ICM but
    > it's at least a way of getting prints that, on the first try, don't look
    > *grossly* different from the screen.
    >
    > Am I missing something here? Is there a secret ICM driver for this printer,
    > other than the one that comes with the driver? Something else I should
    > check? I tried quite a variety of printer settings, and except for fully
    > manual color adjustment, they all seemed exactly the same (and identically
    > wrong).
    >
    > Also, what does PhotoEnhance do? I wasn't using it because my understanding
    > is that it attempts to adjust the color automatically.
    >
    > Last: Is there a *cheap* inkjet printer now on the market that will
    > outperform the Stylus Photo 700? I'm at the point of wondering whether to
    > spend $45 on another set of cartridges for this old printer that I never
    > quite mastered, or get something new for $100 to $200 that will actually do
    > color matching. Canon? HP? A newer Epson?
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    >
    > Michael Covington -- www.covingtoninnovations.com
    > Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
    > and (new) How to Use a Computerized Telescope


    Michael,

    for colormanagement with a(n Epson) printer you need
    - a colormanagement software like photoshop
    - "no color adjustment" in the driver
    - ICC-profiles that fit to your printer and paper (that the clue)

    If you can specify "no color adjustment", the printer supports
    colormangement if the photoeditor supports it.

    You have to specify an icc-profile in the photoeditor in the print
    dialog.
    The big problem is to find the right icc-profile, especially for third
    party paper. The photoeditor converts the data from the working color
    space to the printer color space.

    That's all

    What is your working color space ? the paper ? the icc-profile ?


    Winfried
     
    W. W. Schwolgin, Nov 18, 2003
    #6
  7. "Safetymom123" <> wrote in message
    news:sWtub.22261$...
    > I would look at the new Epsons. They give great results. Also have you
    > adjusted your monitor so you are seeing the image correctly.


    Yes, the monitor has been adjusted with Adobe Gamma, and also, I have been
    working from the numbers (RGB values) so in some cases I know exactly how
    the picture should be looking.

    ICM apparently has no effect on this printer.
     
    Michael A. Covington, Nov 18, 2003
    #7
  8. "W. W. Schwolgin" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > for colormanagement with a(n Epson) printer you need
    > - a colormanagement software like photoshop
    > - "no color adjustment" in the driver
    > - ICC-profiles that fit to your printer and paper (that the clue)
    >
    > If you can specify "no color adjustment", the printer supports
    > colormangement if the photoeditor supports it.
    >
    > You have to specify an icc-profile in the photoeditor in the print
    > dialog.
    > The big problem is to find the right icc-profile, especially for third
    > party paper. The photoeditor converts the data from the working color
    > space to the printer color space.
    >
    > That's all
    >
    > What is your working color space ? the paper ? the icc-profile ?


    Working space, Adobe RGB.
    Monitor calibrated with Adobe Gamma, and I'm also looking at the RGB numbers
    to double-check.

    ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700.
    "No Color Adjustment" or "ICM" in the printer driver (they give the same
    results).

    I think the problem is that the ICM profile for the printer doesn't really
    do the job, and no other profile is available for it as best I can
    determine.
     
    Michael A. Covington, Nov 18, 2003
    #8
  9. "Michael A. Covington" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > "Ed E." <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > I found Epson's support for the 700 to be extremely disappointing. I

    > always
    > > had problems with their software and drivers on any OS beyond Windows 98.
    > > But when it worked, it worked nicely. I couldn't get the colors quite

    > where
    > > they needed to be, but the image was still acceptable and very crisp. I
    > > couldn't use anything other than Epson cartridges if I wanted colors
    > > anywhere near accurate.
    > >
    > > There has been quite a bit of advancement in technology since that printer
    > > has been discontinued (about 5 years now?) I'd suggest reviewing some of
    > > the newer printers and seeing if one doesn't more closely suit your needs.
    > > The next time you go to buy ink, see if that money makes sense to invest

    > in
    > > something that will get you to where you want to be.

    >
    > That is exactly what I'm doing. Instead of $45 worth of ink, I'm wondering
    > about $100 to $200 worth of new printer (with ink).
    >
    > Do later Epsons support ICM properly?
    >
    > Should I be looking at Canon? i960? What models?
    >
    > This is for relatively low-volume printing of photographs. Many of them are
    > scientific images where automatic color balancing is *not* wanted; I want to
    > adjust the color on my screen and then print what I see. I know about gamut
    > limitations, etc., so I'm not naively expecting the printout to look just
    > like the screen image, but I'd at least like to have technologies such as
    > ICM help me out a little.
    >
    > Looking at the Epson Stylus Photo 700 manual, it looks like ICM was an
    > afterthought -- the manual indicates that it's there but gives almost no
    > indication of what to expect from it. Maybe they never really implemented
    > it, and all these years, their ICM profile is really just a piece of
    > temporary do-nothing code.


    I get similar problems with my Epson Stylus Photo 750, again
    about four years old. I go through screen setups on my ViewSonic P815
    sticking pieces of card with cutouts on the screen and entering which
    one is closest to the colour. Yet still my prints are NOT exactly what
    I get on the screen. It is always rather faded. I have to up the Reds
    and contrast to get a good print.

    Is just getting a newer printer the answer?

    Chris.
     
    Chris McBrien, Nov 18, 2003
    #9
  10. Michael A. Covington

    VT Guest

    On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:52:06 -0500, "Michael A. Covington"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
    >Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
    >Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
    >700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
    >Photoshop 6.
    >
    >Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if out
    >of gamut, and too warm.


    Just checking.......

    A lot of problems come when BOTH the printer's own color management
    and the photo editor's color management are used at the same time -
    ie: getting in effect DOUBLE color management.

    This is a case of EITHER/OR - ie:

    EITHER use the photo editor's color management only with the printer
    set to No color adjustment..

    OR turn off the photo editor's color management, and print with the
    printer's color management, in this case ICM.

    but NOT BOTH.

    Here's a rather good article:

    Out of Gamut: Color Management Made Stupid
    By Bruce Fraser

    http://www.creativepro.com/printerfriendly/story/2440.html
    --
    Vincent
    remove CLOTHES for e-mail

    http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
     
    VT, Nov 18, 2003
    #10
  11. > I get similar problems with my Epson Stylus Photo 750, again
    > about four years old. I go through screen setups on my ViewSonic P815
    > sticking pieces of card with cutouts on the screen and entering which
    > one is closest to the colour. Yet still my prints are NOT exactly what
    > I get on the screen. It is always rather faded. I have to up the Reds
    > and contrast to get a good print.


    Printers cannot produce colors as bright and vivid as you see on the screen.
    This is called gamut limitation. However, right now my Epson gives me a
    *big* color shift (the prints are way too red; the blues are violet and the
    violets are magenta) which is correctable only with manual color adjustment
    in the printer driver.

    That's what I'm hoping ICM will help me with.
     
    Michael A. Covington, Nov 18, 2003
    #11
  12. > EITHER use the photo editor's color management only with the printer
    > set to No color adjustment..
    >
    > OR turn off the photo editor's color management, and print with the
    > printer's color management, in this case ICM.
    >
    > but NOT BOTH.


    Understood. I have tried either one, both, and neither. Would you believe
    the prints look the same all 4 ways? That's why I distrust Epson's ICM
    profile. I think it's not doing anything.
     
    Michael A. Covington, Nov 18, 2003
    #12
  13. I don't know what the printer driver actually do when you select ICM,
    but I guess you don't need it – in fact, when you select "Printer
    Color Mangement" in Photoshop, you are in fact telling the program to
    convert colors from the input color space to the printer's color space
    (defined by the printer's default color profile) – this is a ICM
    conversion. If you then select "Color management in the printer
    driver", you can make further adjustments.

    Mapril Oliveira
    http://www.mapril.net Software for Digital Photography

    >
    > After an evening of experimenting, I am beginning to doubt whether the ICM
    > color management of my Epson Stylus Photo 700 has any effect at all.
    >
    > As I understand it, ICM should map the colors of the screen onto the color
    > gamut of the printer, preserving hues as best it can while reducing the
    > saturation as needed. This is a moderately complicated adjustment in a 2-
    > or 3-dimensional space, which is why we have ICM to do it for us.
    >
    > And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
    > Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
    > Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
    > 700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
    > Photoshop 6.
    >
     
    Mapril Oliveira, Nov 18, 2003
    #13
  14. Michael A. Covington

    VT Guest

    On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:04:50 -0500, "Michael A. Covington"
    <> wrote:


    >
    >Understood. I have tried either one, both, and neither. Would you believe
    >the prints look the same all 4 ways? That's why I distrust Epson's ICM
    >profile. I think it's not doing anything.
    >


    all 4 look the same - might be a hint........

    let's take one basic step back, just to check....

    do you have the Epson Printer's icc (color ) profile properly loaded
    and acknowledged by the operating system?

    Under Windoz if you click on the printer's properties and click the
    color management tab - that should show you the color profile selected
    for the printer - if you do not have one, then that's the
    problem......

    --
    Vincent
    remove CLOTHES for e-mail

    http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
     
    VT, Nov 18, 2003
    #14
  15. Michael A. Covington

    Flycaster Guest

    "Michael A. Covington" <> wrote in
    message news:bpduos$2od$...
    >
    > "W. W. Schwolgin" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > Working space, Adobe RGB.
    > Monitor calibrated with Adobe Gamma, and I'm also looking at the RGB

    numbers
    > to double-check.
    >
    > ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700.
    > "No Color Adjustment" or "ICM" in the printer driver (they give the same
    > results).
    >
    > I think the problem is that the ICM profile for the printer doesn't really
    > do the job, and no other profile is available for it as best I can
    > determine.


    Your problem is this line: "ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700" This is
    NOT an ICM/ICC profile. This is the canned paper "package setting" that
    comes with the printer; it tells the printer to color correct for the Espon
    paper settings you designate in the actual driver. This is the same package
    setting that comes with all Epson consumer printers

    A true profile is completely different for EACH paper type, ink set, and dpi
    setting.




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    Flycaster, Nov 19, 2003
    #15
  16. > let's take one basic step back, just to check....
    >
    > do you have the Epson Printer's icc (color ) profile properly loaded
    > and acknowledged by the operating system?
    >
    > Under Windoz if you click on the printer's properties and click the
    > color management tab - that should show you the color profile selected
    > for the printer - if you do not have one, then that's the
    > problem......


    It's there.
     
    Michael A. Covington, Nov 19, 2003
    #16
  17. SUCCESS Re: Does Epson Stylus Photo 700 really do ICM at all?

    Finally found settings that work.

    In Photoshop:
    Source space: Document (Adobe RGB)
    Print space: Same As Source

    In printer driver:
    Custom Settings, ICM.

    What I get is a quite credible ICM-balanced picture. It's not a perfect
    match to the screen, but it's not grossly off. It's something I can live
    with. Particularly the tonality (brightness gradation) is much better than
    with other modes.

    What did *not* work was (among other things):
    Print Space: Printer Color Management and any of a vast range of
    settings on the printer;

    nor
    Print Space: Epson Stylus Photo 700 and color management disabled on the
    printer.


    While I don't know why these others didn't work (and am still thinking of
    getting a Canon printer), I'm glad to have achieved some success.
     
    Michael A. Covington, Nov 19, 2003
    #17
  18. "Flycaster" <> wrote in message
    news:3fbab358$...
    >
    > Your problem is this line: "ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700" This is
    > NOT an ICM/ICC profile. This is the canned paper "package setting" that
    > comes with the printer; it tells the printer to color correct for the

    Espon
    > paper settings you designate in the actual driver. This is the same

    package
    > setting that comes with all Epson consumer printers
    >
    > A true profile is completely different for EACH paper type, ink set, and

    dpi
    > setting.


    What should be done about this?
     
    Michael A. Covington, Nov 19, 2003
    #18
  19. Michael A. Covington

    Flycaster Guest

    "Michael A. Covington" <> wrote
    in message news:...
    >
    > "Flycaster" <> wrote in message
    > news:3fbab358$...
    > >
    > > Your problem is this line: "ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700" This

    is
    > > NOT an ICM/ICC profile. This is the canned paper "package setting" that
    > > comes with the printer; it tells the printer to color correct for the

    > Espon
    > > paper settings you designate in the actual driver. This is the same

    > package
    > > setting that comes with all Epson consumer printers
    > >
    > > A true profile is completely different for EACH paper type, ink set, and

    > dpi
    > > setting.

    >
    > What should be done about this?


    Simple. Either buy a medium range profile making package (Monaco and others
    make these), or just have a profile maker build one or two custom profiles
    for you. Or, just dial in the driver settings until you get "close enough",
    and call it good.




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    http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
    -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
     
    Flycaster, Nov 19, 2003
    #19
  20. Michael A. Covington

    bmoag Guest

    Re: SUCCESS Re: Does Epson Stylus Photo 700 really do ICM at all?

    I still have this old printer. When I got a 1280 I was initially irked at
    how hard it was to get the 1280 color in synch with the monitor compared to
    the 700.
     
    bmoag, Nov 19, 2003
    #20
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