Dimdows Fragmentation

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.

    What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 21, 2006
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Jennings Guest

    On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:51:11 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    > default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >
    > What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    > than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    > to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?




    Lame troll get some new material ...


    J
    Jennings, Jul 21, 2006
    #2
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  3. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    > default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >
    > What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    > than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    > to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?


    I'm sure that the new filesystem (WinFS) will fix all those kinds of issues.

    No, wait - hang on...
    -=rjh=-, Jul 21, 2006
    #3
  4. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Enkidu Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    > So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    > default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >
    > What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    > than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    > to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?
    >

    I never defrag these days. I've never noticed any difference.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    Enkidu, Jul 21, 2006
    #4
  5. In message <>, Enkidu wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > >
    >> So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging
    >> by default in Vista
    >> <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >>
    >> What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux
    >> systems than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever.
    >> For close to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by
    >> it?

    >
    > I never defrag these days. I've never noticed any difference.


    So another case of Microsoft scraping the bottom of the barrel, looking for
    new features to add to Vista?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 21, 2006
    #5
  6. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Nova Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    > default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >
    > What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    > than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    > to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?


    A trolling we will go....

    Scraping the bottom the barrel looking for ways to troll...
    Nova, Jul 21, 2006
    #6
  7. Nova wrote:
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic
    >> defragging by
    >> default in Vista
    >> <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >>
    >> What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux
    >> systems
    >> than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For
    >> close
    >> to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?

    >
    > A trolling we will go....
    >
    > Scraping the bottom the barrel looking for ways to troll...


    Have you investigated the facts before making that statement? I don't
    think he's wrong, but I think you are. I'm not professing to be an
    expert here, but Windows certainly does have it's failings in this
    regard, but I think this is because of the file system it's using.
    Perhaps someone else can comment on and elaborate on this, who knows the
    technical details off hand.

    Lawrence doesn't appear to be a dumbarse to me... but perhaps you can
    draw your own conclusions by looking at his homepage...
    http://www.geek-central.gen.nz/
    Komrade Klark, Jul 21, 2006
    #7
  8. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Nova Guest

    Komrade Klark wrote:
    > Nova wrote:
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>> So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic
    >>> defragging by
    >>> default in Vista
    >>> <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >>>
    >>> What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux
    >>> systems
    >>> than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For
    >>> close
    >>> to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?

    >>
    >> A trolling we will go....
    >>
    >> Scraping the bottom the barrel looking for ways to troll...

    >
    > Have you investigated the facts before making that statement? I don't
    > think he's wrong, but I think you are. I'm not professing to be an
    > expert here, but Windows certainly does have it's failings in this
    > regard, but I think this is because of the file system it's using.
    > Perhaps someone else can comment on and elaborate on this, who knows the
    > technical details off hand.
    >
    > Lawrence doesn't appear to be a dumbarse to me... but perhaps you can
    > draw your own conclusions by looking at his homepage...
    > http://www.geek-central.gen.nz/


    I have no desire to look at that webpage, the second he wrote "dimdows"
    was enough for me to draw my own conclusions about his motives for
    posting his message. Anyone that can't even spell Windows or comes up
    with what they think are funny names such as micro$soft or dimdows etc
    is obviously just trolling. The whole defragging topic has been
    thrashed to death yet we are lucky we have these *nix fanboys to keep
    bringing up little things such as these. Anyway i was silly and took
    the bait but I'll bow out now :)

    I must say though, I use Windows and it has been years since I defragged
    a drive, maybe in Windows 98 I did but haven't really felt the need for
    a long time. There will always be people that want every bit of
    optimisation and so will want to defrag things and at 4am on a sunday,
    well who cares what the pc does if its even on that is :).

    take it easy
    Nova, Jul 21, 2006
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Ross Guest

    On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:51:11 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    >default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >
    >What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    >than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    >to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?


    Most people think that defragging speeds up a modern computer. It
    makes neglible difference due to the speed of modern drives.
    Ross, Jul 21, 2006
    #9
  10. Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    > default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.


    Windows Vista has defrag on by default

    The article is a little incorrect, defrag in Vista doesn't effect user
    experience because of Low Priority I/O

    http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/priorityio.mspx

    Try doing a defrag on XP and using your PC for something else at the
    same time

    > What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    > than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    > to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?
    Nathan Mercer, Jul 21, 2006
    #10
  11. Nova wrote:
    > Komrade Klark wrote:
    >> Nova wrote:
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>> So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic
    >>>> defragging by
    >>>> default in Vista
    >>>> <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >>>>
    >>>> What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux
    >>>> systems
    >>>> than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever.
    >>>> For close
    >>>> to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?
    >>>
    >>> A trolling we will go....
    >>>
    >>> Scraping the bottom the barrel looking for ways to troll...

    >>
    >> Have you investigated the facts before making that statement? I don't
    >> think he's wrong, but I think you are. I'm not professing to be an
    >> expert here, but Windows certainly does have it's failings in this
    >> regard, but I think this is because of the file system it's using.
    >> Perhaps someone else can comment on and elaborate on this, who knows
    >> the technical details off hand.
    >>
    >> Lawrence doesn't appear to be a dumbarse to me... but perhaps you can
    >> draw your own conclusions by looking at his homepage...
    >> http://www.geek-central.gen.nz/

    >
    > I have no desire to look at that webpage, the second he wrote "dimdows"
    > was enough for me to draw my own conclusions about his motives for
    > posting his message. Anyone that can't even spell Windows or comes up
    > with what they think are funny names such as micro$soft or dimdows etc
    > is obviously just trolling. The whole defragging topic has been
    > thrashed to death yet we are lucky we have these *nix fanboys to keep
    > bringing up little things such as these. Anyway i was silly and took
    > the bait but I'll bow out now :)
    >
    > I must say though, I use Windows and it has been years since I defragged
    > a drive, maybe in Windows 98 I did but haven't really felt the need for
    > a long time. There will always be people that want every bit of
    > optimisation and so will want to defrag things and at 4am on a sunday,
    > well who cares what the pc does if its even on that is :).
    >
    > take it easy


    All good. I think you might be right anyway. Hey, trolling is fun
    sometimes regardless :) Sometimes it does actually get some good debate
    going, and some really good info comes out of it. Gets people fired up,
    and often the best comes out under those situations. People write that
    wouldn't normally, as the can't resist because they feel strongly about it.

    All that aside... I think Lawrence would have done well to put a few
    facts with the post, for the benefit of those that don't know, want to
    know more about what he's talking about, or haven't read the previous
    threads.

    Nite, and hope you have a good weekend.
    Komrade Klark, Jul 21, 2006
    #11
  12. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mike Dee Guest

    On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 22:10:55 +1200, Nova wrote:

    > Anyway i was silly and took
    > the bait but I'll bow out now :)


    Goodnight and please close the door behind you, on your way out.

    --
    dee
    Mike Dee, Jul 21, 2006
    #12
  13. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    MaHogany Guest

    On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 03:25:58 -0700, Nathan Mercer wrote:

    > Try doing a defrag on XP and using your PC for something else at the
    > same time


    Yes - we all know how Micro$oft doesn't know how to produce a Disc
    Operating System that can operate discs without requiring external
    intervention.


    Ma Hogany

    --
    Q: How do I make Windows(TM) go faster?
    A: Throw it harder...
    MaHogany, Jul 21, 2006
    #13
  14. MaHogany wrote:
    > On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 03:25:58 -0700, Nathan Mercer wrote:
    >
    >> Try doing a defrag on XP and using your PC for something else at the
    >> same time

    >
    > Yes - we all know how Micro$oft doesn't know how to produce a Disc
    > Operating System that can operate discs without requiring external
    > intervention.
    >
    >
    > Ma Hogany
    >


    Perhaps hence the purchase of Winternals

    http://www.winternals.com/Faq.aspx

    for Defrag Manager

    http://www.winternals.com/Products/DefragManager/Default.aspx
    Komrade Klark, Jul 21, 2006
    #14
  15. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    thingy Guest

    Jennings wrote:
    > On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:51:11 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >
    >>So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    >>default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >>
    >>What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    >>than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    >>to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?

    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Lame troll get some new material ...
    >
    >
    > J
    >


    yeah yeah.....the fact that after 2 or 3 years fragmentation kills your
    print, file and even web servers is an issue....remember this is NT,
    "new technology"....yeah right...

    How the chkdisk on partitions over about 400Gig stops a machine coming
    on line for hours if not days.....yeah right.

    So while MS is fixing its major issues inherant in its design, it seems
    to taking a long while....

    Innovation.....how MS leads the way....while at a premier MS clustering
    course the MS borg was telling me of all these new features....you can
    now mount partitions under others instead of having to have drive
    letters....or the fantastic shell MS will have.....and oh how Longhorn
    clustering will be so much better with a new interface.....yeah
    right......copying unixland and vapour ware salesmanship....

    The difference between a linux bigot and a windows bigot is a windows
    bigot cant see the major faults in the MS system, while a Linux bigot
    can see the faults in a MS system..............

    ;]

    regards

    thing
    thingy, Jul 21, 2006
    #15
  16. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    thingy Guest

    Ross wrote:
    > On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:51:11 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    > <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    >>default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    >>
    >>What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    >>than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    >>to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?

    >
    >
    > Most people think that defragging speeds up a modern computer. It
    > makes neglible difference due to the speed of modern drives.


    Move away from a single desktop and into large windows servers,say print
    serers serving 20~30,000 users and defrag becomes a huge issue....Win2k3
    is supposed to fix this.....I will believe it when I see it....

    One thing I noticed about all the test on the net in windows v linux is
    that windows is afresh install....try doing thesame test on a windows
    servers, serving web, print or file after say 1 or 2 years
    hardwork......or say fater adecent bit of uptime letting chkdisk kick
    in, after say a bad crash....the downtime on windows boxes climbs
    somewhat while they recover....

    regards

    Thing
    thingy, Jul 21, 2006
    #16
  17. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    thingy Guest

    Nathan Mercer wrote:
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >>So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging by
    >>default in Vista <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.

    >
    >
    > Windows Vista has defrag on by default
    >
    > The article is a little incorrect, defrag in Vista doesn't effect user
    > experience because of Low Priority I/O
    >
    > http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/priorityio.mspx
    >
    > Try doing a defrag on XP and using your PC for something else at the
    > same time
    >
    >
    >>What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux systems
    >>than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For close
    >>to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?

    >
    >


    So what you are saying is Nathan the fix for Windows sometimes fatal
    flaw is to hide the issue by attempting to defrag in the background....

    Does this technique apply to win2k3? because I have people telling me
    the issue is fixed in win2k3.....sounds more like it is nothing but
    hidden....on a heavily used server defrag in the background may never
    actually keep up, indeed most delays in servers these days I would
    contend is disk i/o as ram is dirt cheap and even basic cpus way over
    spec'd for most jobs.....result machine waits for read and writes to
    disk....result background defrag may not be enough....now you might say
    night time is a quiet time....lets not forget about backups and 24/7
    global businesses....

    Sweeping something under the carpet is not a fix.....it is a kludge.

    regards

    Thing
    thingy, Jul 21, 2006
    #17
  18. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    E. Scrooge Guest

    "thingy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Nathan Mercer wrote:
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>>So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging
    >>>by
    >>>default in Vista
    >>><http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.

    >>
    >>
    >> Windows Vista has defrag on by default
    >>
    >> The article is a little incorrect, defrag in Vista doesn't effect user
    >> experience because of Low Priority I/O
    >>
    >> http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/priorityio.mspx
    >>
    >> Try doing a defrag on XP and using your PC for something else at the
    >> same time
    >>
    >>
    >>>What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more Linux
    >>>systems
    >>>than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of them. Ever. For
    >>>close
    >>>to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to be impacted by it?

    >>
    >>

    >
    > So what you are saying is Nathan the fix for Windows sometimes fatal flaw
    > is to hide the issue by attempting to defrag in the background....
    >
    > Does this technique apply to win2k3? because I have people telling me the
    > issue is fixed in win2k3.....sounds more like it is nothing but
    > hidden....on a heavily used server defrag in the background may never
    > actually keep up, indeed most delays in servers these days I would contend
    > is disk i/o as ram is dirt cheap and even basic cpus way over spec'd for
    > most jobs.....result machine waits for read and writes to disk....result
    > background defrag may not be enough....now you might say night time is a
    > quiet time....lets not forget about backups and 24/7 global businesses....
    >
    > Sweeping something under the carpet is not a fix.....it is a kludge.
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing


    More than likely there's a setting that can turn the auto option off. No
    point in worrying about until you get stuck with it.
    Most people with fairly new PCs will be using them for years running XP.
    The next 64bit version after Vista is bound to be a lot better. W95 wasn't
    that great and W98 was a step backwards after the sneaky release of W95B
    onto newer PCs at the time.
    Vista will be a big step full of problems that will take a couple of years
    of real use by the mass market to sort out. The next version or the patched
    up addition CD for it will be the right time to get Vista.
    And even then XP is still going to be good enough for most people.

    E. Scrooge
    E. Scrooge, Jul 21, 2006
    #18
  19. In message <>, Nathan
    Mercer wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic defragging
    >> by default in Vista
    >> <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.

    >
    > Windows Vista has defrag on by default
    >
    > The article is a little incorrect, defrag in Vista doesn't [a]ffect user
    > experience because of Low Priority I/O
    >
    > http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/priorityio.mspx


    One warning with every defrag program I've come across is to ALWAYS back up
    your data before running it. This is because all it takes is one hiccup
    while rearranging some critical filesystem structure, and you could lose
    everything.

    How does the Vista defragger get around this? If it doesn't, then it becomes
    another point of failure in the system...
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 22, 2006
    #19
  20. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Ross wrote:
    > On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:51:11 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    > <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    > > So Microsoft is mulling the possibility of enabling automatic
    > > defragging by default in Vista
    > > <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060720-7319.html>.
    > >
    > > What is this about Dimdows and fragmentation? I've set up more
    > > Linux systems than I can count, and I've never had to defrag any of
    > > them. Ever. For close to a decade now. Why does Dimdows continue to
    > > be impacted by it?

    >
    > Most people think that defragging speeds up a modern computer. It
    > makes neglible difference due to the speed of modern drives.


    Having spent nearly 3 hours tidying up a (1 year old) system last weekend
    using PerfectDisk 7.0 and timing the boot times and application-start times
    before and after I can categorically say that the above statement is a crock
    of chit. Boot time halved and application start times was reduced by 40%.
    Negligable? Maybe on some planets.

    Camera shots of screen:

    Before:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/87845368@N00/195076609/

    After:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/87845368@N00/195076610/
    --
    Shaun.
    ~misfit~, Jul 22, 2006
    #20
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