Digital Photography RFD: rec.photo.digital.slr vs rec.photo.digital.slr-systems?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Lionel, Sep 14, 2004.

  1. Lionel

    Lionel Guest

    [crossposted to news.groups,rec.photo.digital, followups set to
    news.groups only]

    Do *you* prefer rec.photo.digital.slr or rec.photo.digital.slr-systems?

    I'm still seeing a lot of people expressing a preference for the earlier
    name, but with a simpler charter, over the version in the current RFD.
    While I feel that the current version of the DSLR group RFD is a pretty
    good match between group name & the proponents' preferred charter, &
    good enough that I'll vote for it if it's the only choice on the menu, I
    personally still prefer the idea of a group that's simply about anything
    people want to say about true digital SLRs, *as well as* digital cameras
    that broadly fit in the same category, such as the Olympus fixed-lens
    DSLR that been mentioned here a few times.
    IMO, this would make for a simple, non-controversial charter that'd be
    a very good match to the group name, & make it easier for potential
    users to find the best group for their interests.
    Other than that, I'd keep the charter as Thad & Alan have written it.

    "slr-systems" for digital SLRs with a lens system, etc, or:
    "slr" for DSLRs, regardless of the technicalities?

    --
    W
    . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
    \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
    ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Lionel, Sep 14, 2004
    #1
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  2. Lionel

    Steve Young Guest

    "Lionel" <> wrote

    > [crossposted to news.groups,rec.photo.digital, followups set to
    > news.groups only]


    same here

    > Do *you* prefer rec.photo.digital.slr or rec.photo.digital.slr-systems?


    > I'm still seeing a lot of people expressing a preference for the earlier
    > name, but with a simpler charter, over the version in the current RFD.
    > While I feel that the current version of the DSLR group RFD is a pretty
    > good match between group name & the proponents' preferred charter, &
    > good enough that I'll vote for it if it's the only choice on the menu, I
    > personally still prefer the idea of a group that's simply about anything
    > people want to say about true digital SLRs, *as well as* digital cameras
    > that broadly fit in the same category, such as the Olympus fixed-lens
    > DSLR that been mentioned here a few times.
    > IMO, this would make for a simple, non-controversial charter that'd be
    > a very good match to the group name, & make it easier for potential
    > users to find the best group for their interests.
    > Other than that, I'd keep the charter as Thad & Alan have written it.
    >
    > "slr-systems" for digital SLRs with a lens system, etc, or:
    > "slr" for DSLRs, regardless of the technicalities?


    rec.photo.digital.slr regardless of technicalities

    A P&S, compact, or camera, if it's really wanted

    And of course new charters for rpd & rpe35, since it's called a re-org.

    Steve Young
     
    Steve Young, Sep 14, 2004
    #2
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  3. Lionel

    Ken Tough Guest

    Lionel <> wrote:

    >Do *you* prefer rec.photo.digital.slr or rec.photo.digital.slr-systems?


    Yes.

    The distinction is pretty superficial. SLR by definition refers
    to cameras with mirrors and optical viewfinders through the lens.

    Whether the lens is removable or not is a bit of an irrelevancy.
    "ZLRs" (which should just remain in rec.photo.digital) are not
    SLRs if they have electronic viewfinders.

    Pretty simple. If you want to discuss lenses or paraphernalia
    in r.p.d.slr, then why should that be a problem? It doesn't
    need to be defined as "systems" to include that.

    --
    Ken Tough
     
    Ken Tough, Sep 15, 2004
    #3
  4. Ken Tough wrote:

    >
    >Whether the lens is removable or not is a bit of an irrelevancy.
    >"ZLRs" (which should just remain in rec.photo.digital) are not
    >SLRs if they have electronic viewfinders.


    if the image in the viewfinder is obtained thru the lens (TTL heard of that??)
    then it is a SLR. fixed or changeable is totally irrelevant.

    if you are going with systems then just create a Canon group which will probably
    take up about 40% of the RPD reader base, and then in descending readership a
    NIKON and so on.

    this is so much crap that I am ready for a CFV so that we can vote against
    anything NOT moderated and get back to business.

    fwiw
    --
    chas
    The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join

    ....
     
    schuetzen - RKBA!, Sep 15, 2004
    #4
  5. Lionel

    Ken Tough Guest

    schuetzen - RKBA! <> wrote:

    >Ken Tough wrote:
    >>Whether the lens is removable or not is a bit of an irrelevancy.
    >>"ZLRs" (which should just remain in rec.photo.digital) are not
    >>SLRs if they have electronic viewfinders.


    >if the image in the viewfinder is obtained thru the lens (TTL heard of that??)


    yes, TTL is a common acronym. It doesn't mean the same as SLR.
    "Reflex" refers to the fact that the viewfinder image is reflected.

    >then it is a SLR. fixed or changeable is totally irrelevant.


    No, just because it is TTL does not make it SLR. If you wanted
    rec.photo.digital.ttl, I think that would be particularly bad.

    >this is so much crap that I am ready for a CFV so that we can vote against
    >anything NOT moderated and get back to business.


    SLR would encompass much of the Canon and Nikon discussion I see.
    rec.photo.digital.storage-media would take a good chunk away too.

    The CFV only comes a set time after the RFD.
    --
    Ken Tough
     
    Ken Tough, Sep 15, 2004
    #5
  6. schuetzen - RKBA! wrote:

    > if the image in the viewfinder is obtained thru the lens (TTL heard of that??)
    > then it is a SLR.


    No, it is not an SLR if it's electronically transmitted.

    fixed or changeable is totally irrelevant.

    A few have argued to the death on that, but the majority don't think so.

    >
    > if you are going with systems then just create a Canon group which will probably
    > take up about 40% of the RPD reader base, and then in descending readership a
    > NIKON and so on.
    >
    > this is so much crap that I am ready for a CFV so that we can vote against
    > anything NOT moderated and get back to business.
    >

    For one who is promoting a web based forum, I'd fall over backwards if
    you voted yes; it'd take a very big man to vote counter his interests.

    --
    John McWilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Sep 15, 2004
    #6
  7. schuetzen - RKBA! wrote:
    []
    > if the image in the viewfinder is obtained thru the lens (TTL heard
    > of that??) then it is a SLR. fixed or changeable is totally
    > irrelevant.


    That applies to virtually all point-and-shoot cameras!

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Sep 15, 2004
    #7
  8. Lionel

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    schuetzen - RKBA! <> wrote:

    > if the image in the viewfinder is obtained thru the lens (TTL heard of that??)
    > then it is a SLR. fixed or changeable is totally irrelevant.


    Whether the viewfinder is optical is *very* relevant.

    > if you are going with systems then just create a Canon group which will
    > probably take up about 40% of the RPD reader base, and then in descending
    > readership a NIKON and so on.


    Segregating by brand is pointless and silly.

    > this is so much crap that I am ready for a CFV so that we can vote against
    > anything NOT moderated and get back to business.


    We don't want the groups moderated.

    --
    Jeremy |
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Sep 15, 2004
    #8
  9. Lionel

    Alan Browne Guest

    schuetzen - RKBA! wrote:

    > this is so much crap that I am ready for a CFV so that we can vote against
    > anything NOT moderated and get back to business.



    gee, as a proponent for the group below, that goes to follow
    doesn't it?

    Moderated groups stifle lively discussion.
    Web based groups (such as below) are tedious to navigate.

    > The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join



    --
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Sep 15, 2004
    #9
  10. Lionel

    Dave Guest

    Lionel <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > [crossposted to news.groups,rec.photo.digital, followups set to
    > news.groups only]
    >
    > Do *you* prefer rec.photo.digital.slr or rec.photo.digital.slr-systems?
    >


    Me? I think you cut to the chase and offer one new group:
    rec.photo.digital.advanced.

    Rational:

    Folks don't have clue what a zslr is, but they'll know whether
    instantly if they belong in r.p.d. or r.p.d.a.

    Folks who are doing advanced/interesting/professional stuff in digital
    photography are often using something other than a dslr.

    How, for example, does the silly new rfd5 (SNRFD5) propose to cover
    the interests of someone who shoots 4x5 chromes and scans them for
    later manipulation in Photoshop? R.p.d.slr? I don't think so.

    Or the real estate broker a couple of years ago who took a hot-selling
    shot of the Dallas skyline with a D490 - does the SNRFD5 expect him to
    discuss where to get the best panoramic prints or how to best market
    his postcards in the PnS group?

    Conversely, if the SNRFD5 somehow becomes reality, do you think the
    r.p.d.slr group will want to deal with questions about why the
    built-in flash on someone's D70 won't light up Shea Stadium?

    There is nothing intrinsically different about the
    motivation/technique/process/results involved in using an Oly 8080
    versus an E1. Or at least not enough that you could fuel a new
    newsgroup on it let alone 4 new ones.

    Dave
     
    Dave, Sep 15, 2004
    #10
  11. Re: Digital Photography RFD: rec.photo.digital.slr vsrec.photo.digital.slr-systems?

    Jeremy Nixon <> writes:

    > schuetzen - RKBA! <> wrote:
    >
    >> if the image in the viewfinder is obtained thru the lens (TTL heard of that??)
    >> then it is a SLR. fixed or changeable is totally irrelevant.

    >
    > Whether the viewfinder is optical is *very* relevant.


    For some things, not for others. Even with manual focus lenses, I
    tend to use the camera's focus sensor rather than my eye these days.
    For framing, EVF or LCD is fine.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Sep 15, 2004
    #11
  12. Lionel

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    Re: Digital Photography RFD: rec.photo.digital.slr vsrec.photo.digital.slr-systems?

    David Dyer-Bennet <> wrote:

    >> Whether the viewfinder is optical is *very* relevant.

    >
    > For some things, not for others. Even with manual focus lenses, I
    > tend to use the camera's focus sensor rather than my eye these days.
    > For framing, EVF or LCD is fine.


    I don't find that it is. The response is *way* too slow, for starters, and
    it's no good at all in low light. I find that using an LCD *completely*
    changes the entire way I approach and think about taking pictures, from a
    fundamental level, and I also find it extremely limiting -- to the point
    of being totally useless for shooting any kind of action at all. Framing
    with an LCD completely changes the act of photography, at least for me.

    --
    Jeremy |
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Sep 15, 2004
    #12
  13. Lionel

    Dave Guest

    (Dave) wrote in message news:<>...
    > Lionel <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > > [crossposted to news.groups,rec.photo.digital, followups set to
    > > news.groups only]
    > >
    > > Do *you* prefer rec.photo.digital.slr or rec.photo.digital.slr-systems?
    > >

    >
    > Me? I think you cut to the chase and offer one new group:
    > rec.photo.digital.advanced.
    >
    > Rational:
    >
    > Folks don't have clue what a zslr is, but they'll know whether
    > instantly if they belong in r.p.d. or r.p.d.a.
    >
    > Folks who are doing advanced/interesting/professional stuff in digital
    > photography are often using something other than a dslr.
    >
    > How, for example, does the silly new rfd5 (SNRFD5) propose to cover
    > the interests of someone who shoots 4x5 chromes and scans them for
    > later manipulation in Photoshop? R.p.d.slr? I don't think so.
    >
    > Or the real estate broker a couple of years ago who took a hot-selling
    > shot of the Dallas skyline with a D490 - does the SNRFD5 expect him to
    > discuss where to get the best panoramic prints or how to best market
    > his postcards in the PnS group?
    >
    > Conversely, if the SNRFD5 somehow becomes reality, do you think the
    > r.p.d.slr group will want to deal with questions about why the
    > built-in flash on someone's D70 won't light up Shea Stadium?
    >
    > There is nothing intrinsically different about the
    > motivation/technique/process/results involved in using an Oly 8080
    > versus an E1. Or at least not enough that you could fuel a new
    > newsgroup on it let alone 4 new ones.
    >
    > Dave




    I meant SNRFD4, sorry.
     
    Dave, Sep 16, 2004
    #13
  14. Lionel

    Guest

    In news.groups Ken Tough <> wrote:
    >Lionel <> wrote:


    >>Do *you* prefer rec.photo.digital.slr or rec.photo.digital.slr-systems?


    >Yes.


    >The distinction is pretty superficial. SLR by definition refers
    >to cameras with mirrors and optical viewfinders through the lens.


    >Whether the lens is removable or not is a bit of an irrelevancy.
    >"ZLRs" (which should just remain in rec.photo.digital) are not
    >SLRs if they have electronic viewfinders.


    Isn't there a problem with that, though? The reason for having
    single reflex was so that the photographer can see the image from
    the film perspective (i.e. as the film would see it). Then whatever
    focus and effects of controls the photographer saw could be expected
    to be transfered to film, roughly. If that is the only source of
    difference between the traditional mirror mechanics and a digital
    screen, then I would expect that difference to basically evaporate
    with improvements in display technology. At some point, a display
    could conceivably have the similar resolution as the particulates
    on a matte screen, which would render a mirror pointless. One
    would simply put the display where the matte was and get rid of
    the mirror. The rest of the form factor could remain unchanged.
    In that scenario, all SLRs as we know them would end up being
    defined as ZLRs, and RPD.slr* would dry up (and RPD would fill
    up again).

    I would then argue that the physical mirror is also irrelevant for
    the definition of "SLR". The only thing that really matters for
    an SLR must then be the reason for the "reflex" label. It isn't
    because of the mirror, it is because there has to be a switch
    between viewing and exposing. I then argue that IF a camera
    changes it's readout mode (e.g. fast but higher noise floor for
    viewing, and whatever is demanded for an exposure), then the
    camera has "reflexed". That is, it has executed the electronic
    equivalent of popping a mirror. The problem is that most digital
    cameras behave this way.

    Ok, so now go back one more relational step from the need for
    the reflex. Why is it necessary to see what the film sees?
    The lens setup changes the outcome of the exposure (e.g. DoF).
    For that reason, fixed lens cameras can fall under "SLR". Also,
    if you change the lens, you automatically change the lens setup.
    If one argues SLRs are cameras that allow the manipulation of
    the lens, either by changing it or by specifically varying the
    aperture (not by the aperture varying with zoom) and allow you
    to preview the image in real time, it seems to me one could go
    back to RPD.slr. The aperture isn't controlable on most P&S,
    so that knocks those out. Post processing and non-camera stuff,
    etc are knocked out.

    What about ZLRs? Yeah, they have this capability. But what
    the heck, if they can used in manual mode with stuff like DoF
    preview, there's not a lot conceptually separating them. If
    traffic becomes an issue, split the group again, to
    RPD.slr.fixed-lens etc and leave RPD for general SLR
    discussions.

    Wouldn't that make RPD.slr a very high volume group? Possibly,
    but at least it would be lower and a little easier to follow.
    It might actually be a good idea to actually go with a single
    large (slr+zlr) split off to see where traffic settles and where
    the actual problems are (you may find that a zlr-slr split is
    intractable and have to look for something else), and then do
    another split when the problems have been broken down just a bit.

    ru

    --
    My standard proposals rant:
    Quality, usefulness, merit, or non-newsgroups popularity of a topic
    is more or less irrelevant in creating a new Big-8 newsgroup.
    Usenet popularity is the primary consideration.
     
    , Sep 17, 2004
    #14
  15. Lionel

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    <> wrote:

    > What about ZLRs? Yeah, they have this capability. But what
    > the heck, if they can used in manual mode with stuff like DoF
    > preview, there's not a lot conceptually separating them.


    Question from a non-ZLR-user: do they have DOF preview? Could that
    really be useful in an electronic viewfinder?

    > It might actually be a good idea to actually go with a single
    > large (slr+zlr) split off to see where traffic settles and where
    > the actual problems are


    At that point you might as well just stick with rec.photo.digital.

    --
    Jeremy |
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Sep 17, 2004
    #15
  16. Lionel

    Steve Young Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:cidhd3$1te$...
    > In news.groups Ken Tough <> wrote:
    >>Lionel <> wrote:

    >
    >>>Do *you* prefer rec.photo.digital.slr or rec.photo.digital.slr-systems?


    >>Yes.


    >>The distinction is pretty superficial. SLR by definition refers
    >>to cameras with mirrors and optical viewfinders through the lens.


    >>Whether the lens is removable or not is a bit of an irrelevancy.
    >>"ZLRs" (which should just remain in rec.photo.digital) are not
    >>SLRs if they have electronic viewfinders.

    >
    > Isn't there a problem with that, though? The reason for having
    > single reflex was so that the photographer can see the image from
    > the film perspective (i.e. as the film would see it). Then whatever
    > focus and effects of controls the photographer saw could be expected
    > to be transfered to film, roughly. If that is the only source of
    > difference between the traditional mirror mechanics and a digital
    > screen, then I would expect that difference to basically evaporate
    > with improvements in display technology. At some point, a display
    > could conceivably have the similar resolution as the particulates
    > on a matte screen, which would render a mirror pointless. One
    > would simply put the display where the matte was and get rid of
    > the mirror. The rest of the form factor could remain unchanged.
    > In that scenario, all SLRs as we know them would end up being
    > defined as ZLRs, and RPD.slr* would dry up (and RPD would fill
    > up again).


    > I would then argue that the physical mirror is also irrelevant for
    > the definition of "SLR". The only thing that really matters for
    > an SLR must then be the reason for the "reflex" label. It isn't
    > because of the mirror, it is because there has to be a switch
    > between viewing and exposing. I then argue that IF a camera
    > changes it's readout mode (e.g. fast but higher noise floor for
    > viewing, and whatever is demanded for an exposure), then the
    > camera has "reflexed". That is, it has executed the electronic
    > equivalent of popping a mirror. The problem is that most digital
    > cameras behave this way.


    > Ok, so now go back one more relational step from the need for
    > the reflex. Why is it necessary to see what the film sees?
    > The lens setup changes the outcome of the exposure (e.g. DoF).
    > For that reason, fixed lens cameras can fall under "SLR". Also,
    > if you change the lens, you automatically change the lens setup.
    > If one argues SLRs are cameras that allow the manipulation of
    > the lens, either by changing it or by specifically varying the
    > aperture (not by the aperture varying with zoom) and allow you
    > to preview the image in real time, it seems to me one could go
    > back to RPD.slr. The aperture isn't controlable on most P&S,
    > so that knocks those out. Post processing and non-camera stuff,
    > etc are knocked out.


    > What about ZLRs? Yeah, they have this capability. But what
    > the heck, if they can used in manual mode with stuff like DoF
    > preview, there's not a lot conceptually separating them. If
    > traffic becomes an issue, split the group again, to
    > RPD.slr.fixed-lens etc and leave RPD for general SLR
    > discussions.


    > Wouldn't that make RPD.slr a very high volume group? Possibly,
    > but at least it would be lower and a little easier to follow.
    > It might actually be a good idea to actually go with a single
    > large (slr+zlr) split off to see where traffic settles and where
    > the actual problems are (you may find that a zlr-slr split is
    > intractable and have to look for something else), and then do
    > another split when the problems have been broken down just a bit.


    "... it seems to me one could go back to RPD.slr."

    Amen This one new group would help a lot.

    And forget the idea of calling it a reorg, cause it ain't
     
    Steve Young, Sep 17, 2004
    #16
  17. Lionel

    Ken Tough Guest

    wrote:

    ....
    >If that is the only source of
    >difference between the traditional mirror mechanics and a digital
    >screen, then I would expect that difference to basically evaporate
    >with improvements in display technology. At some point, a display
    >could conceivably have the similar resolution as the particulates
    >on a matte screen, which would render a mirror pointless.


    True, also provided you can get the same shutter-lag response,
    given that the sensor must be operating to give you the EVF
    image etc. Seems that's part of the problem for lag in the
    compacts right now. Perhaps a splitting prism would work,
    with part of the light going to a cheap/fast sensor for the EVF,
    but then you have the problem that the EVF isn't as good quality
    as the optical viewfinder for many things.

    That doesn't just include 'silly people who want manual focus'
    (as has been referred). If you want to get a good idea of what
    the DOF looks like in the final image, you have to have the
    resolution to see what's really in focus and what isn't etc.

    But, if they were identical, then yes, the EVF camera gets
    harder to distinguish from the SLR in characteristics. How
    do you distinguish these in the name of a group, then? RPD.pro/sumer?

    >Wouldn't that make RPD.slr a very high volume group? Possibly,
    >but at least it would be lower and a little easier to follow.
    >It might actually be a good idea to actually go with a single
    >large (slr+zlr) split off to see where traffic settles and where
    >the actual problems are (you may find that a zlr-slr split is
    >intractable and have to look for something else), and then do
    >another split when the problems have been broken down just a bit.


    Yes, probably it's not worth putting too fine a point on the
    distinction of what's an SLR and what isn't. The point is it's
    a more advanced digital camera than basic ones, which are discussed
    in RPD. Doesn't stop people discussing advanced ones in RPD.

    Was there an RPD.advanced suggestion?

    --
    Ken Tough
     
    Ken Tough, Sep 17, 2004
    #17
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