Digital P&S and color bit depth

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by AAvK, Oct 23, 2006.

  1. AAvK

    AAvK Guest

    Curious about digital point and shoot still cameras along the lines of
    color qualities and color bit depth, my old Nikon 950 does a mere 24
    bits which is 8 bits per RG and B channel. Are there any P&S machines
    that go to at least 12/36 raw, or even better, to 14/42 raw?

    Reason I ask is, it's a rather huge endevour to search it out, and I think
    it is a good issue concerning higher-end P&S cameras that might be of
    a genuine artistic quality.

    --
    }<)))*> Giant_Alex
    cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
    not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
     
    AAvK, Oct 23, 2006
    #1
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  2. AAvK wrote:
    > Curious about digital point and shoot still cameras along the lines of
    > color qualities and color bit depth, my old Nikon 950 does a mere 24
    > bits which is 8 bits per RG and B channel. Are there any P&S machines
    > that go to at least 12/36 raw, or even better, to 14/42 raw?
    >
    > Reason I ask is, it's a rather huge endevour to search it out, and I
    > think it is a good issue concerning higher-end P&S cameras that might
    > be of a genuine artistic quality.


    The 8-bit is JPEG, which has a dynamic range approximately equal to 12-bit
    RAW, because of the gamma-correction included in the JPEG files and not
    the raw files. The compromise is that JPEG does not offer the same
    accuracy as RAW.

    Many non-SLR cameras offer 12-bit raw, I don't believe that any SLR or
    non-SLR offer 14-bit - yet. Check D P Review for the features of
    particular cameras - I think you can make a personalised comparison page
    but don't ask me how!

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Oct 23, 2006
    #2
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  3. AAvK

    bugbear Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > AAvK wrote:
    >
    >>Curious about digital point and shoot still cameras along the lines of
    >>color qualities and color bit depth, my old Nikon 950 does a mere 24
    >>bits which is 8 bits per RG and B channel. Are there any P&S machines
    >>that go to at least 12/36 raw, or even better, to 14/42 raw?
    >>
    >>Reason I ask is, it's a rather huge endevour to search it out, and I
    >>think it is a good issue concerning higher-end P&S cameras that might
    >>be of a genuine artistic quality.

    >
    >
    > The 8-bit is JPEG, which has a dynamic range approximately equal to 12-bit
    > RAW, because of the gamma-correction included in the JPEG files and not
    > the raw files. The compromise is that JPEG does not offer the same
    > accuracy as RAW.


    At the risk of topic drift, some cameras
    offer TIFF as their "lossless" high quality
    mode.

    What correction (if any) has been applied,
    and what bit depth is generated?

    BugBear
     
    bugbear, Oct 23, 2006
    #3
  4. AAvK

    AAvK Guest


    > At the risk of topic drift, some cameras
    > offer TIFF as their "lossless" high quality
    > mode.


    That's what my Nikon 950 does. At 8/24 bit color depth.

    > What correction (if any) has been applied,
    > and what bit depth is generated?
    >
    > BugBear



    That question doesn't apply unless you would clearify. I am asking what cameras
    do give higher color bit depth than 8/24. Something to upgrade to, over the very
    old 950 ('99).

    You are a woodworker on the Albion, yes? I studied your pages a lot, especially
    using the link page for workbenches, a great help.

    --
    }<)))*> Giant_Alex
    cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
    not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
     
    AAvK, Oct 23, 2006
    #4
  5. AAvK

    Ed Ruf Guest

    On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 03:41:26 -0700, in rec.photo.digital "AAvK"
    <> wrote:

    >Reason I ask is, it's a rather huge endevour to search it out, and I think
    >it is a good issue concerning higher-end P&S cameras that might be of
    >a genuine artistic quality.


    Huge endeavor? Give us a break. Use the feature search engine at
    dpreview and choose Raw uncompressed format.
    -
    Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ()
    http://EdwardGRuf.com
     
    Ed Ruf, Oct 23, 2006
    #5
  6. AAvK

    AAvK Guest


    > Huge endeavor? Give us a break.


    chuckle chuckle

    > Use the feature search engine at
    > dpreview and choose Raw uncompressed format.


    Thanks, tried that but nothing gave any indication of "actual" color bit depth...
    or is it that simply "raw" means it will be a higher level, 12/36 no matter what?

    > -
    > Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ()
    > http://EdwardGRuf.com



    --
    }<)))*> Giant_Alex
    cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
    not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
     
    AAvK, Oct 23, 2006
    #6
  7. On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:48:49 -0700, in rec.photo.digital "AAvK"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >> Huge endeavor? Give us a break.

    >
    >chuckle chuckle


    No pathetic, you can't be bothered to even click on a few links

    >> Use the feature search engine at
    >> dpreview and choose Raw uncompressed format.

    >
    >Thanks, tried that but nothing gave any indication of "actual" color bit depth...
    >or is it that simply "raw" means it will be a higher level, 12/36 no matter what?


    What's the "?" link for next to each line on the comparison page. god helps
    those who help themselves. Of try a google search on dpreview article raw.
    I'm not going to spoon feed you just because you're too lazy to look around
    for yourself. This is basic info.
    --
    Ed Ruf ()
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!), Oct 23, 2006
    #7
  8. AAvK

    ASAAR Guest

    On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:52:31 -0400, Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN
    SIG!) wrote:

    >>> Huge endeavor? Give us a break.

    >>
    >> chuckle chuckle

    >
    > No pathetic, you can't be bothered to even click on a few links
    >
    > . . .
    >
    > I'm not going to spoon feed you just because you're too lazy to . . .
    >
    > --
    > Ed Ruf ()
    > http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html


    Today you're more Edward Gruf than Ed Ruf. I haven't checked the
    phase of the moon, but notice that I've also been a bit more snippy
    than usual that last day or two. :)
     
    ASAAR, Oct 24, 2006
    #8
  9. AAvK

    AAvK Guest


    > Today you're more Edward Gruf than Ed Ruf. I haven't checked the
    > phase of the moon, but notice that I've also been a bit more snippy
    > than usual that last day or two. :)
    >


    For crying out loud WHAT a cold pile TURD this guy is! CRYPES!
    Personally type a lot to help people out all the time and I get this nasty
    attitude for nothing I did wrong to him!

    --
    }<)))*> Giant_Alex
    cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
    not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
     
    AAvK, Oct 24, 2006
    #9
  10. AAvK

    AAvK Guest


    >>> Huge endeavor? Give us a break.

    >>
    >>chuckle chuckle

    >
    > No pathetic, you can't be bothered to even click on a few links


    HORSE HOCKER!

    >>> Use the feature search engine at
    >>> dpreview and choose Raw uncompressed format.

    >>
    >>Thanks, tried that but nothing gave any indication of "actual" color bit depth...
    >>or is it that simply "raw" means it will be a higher level, 12/36 no matter what?

    >
    > What's the "?" link for next to each line on the comparison page. god helps
    > those who help themselves. Of try a google search on dpreview article raw.
    > I'm not going to spoon feed you just because you're too lazy to look around
    > for yourself. This is basic info.


    HORSE HOCKER!

    > --
    > Ed Ruf ()
    > http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html



    Hey DO NOT EVER reply to my posts again, because you have one SERIOUS

    > zodiak <


    problem that you cannot overcome as good as any normally mature adult that
    NEVER thought of it. And THAT is pathetic of YOU!

    So keep your icy stink to yourself. Because the only reasons to get into news
    groups is to give and recieve "help" - to and from "people".

    BTW, "God helps those that help themselves" is not part of the WORD of God,
    it is not in the Holy Bible. So that fantasy is not "the word of God".

    God helps those that ASK in FAITH to him. And that IS there, for those that
    accept him through CHRIST! You can prove it to yourself by clicking the link
    in my sig. It has a search engine, and many versions.

    I forgive you, I AM psychologically more powerful than you are, and you are
    not* plonked just so I can monitor you. Do not reply to me, anywhere.

    --
    }<)))*> Giant_Alex
    cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
    not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
     
    AAvK, Oct 24, 2006
    #10
  11. AAvK

    bugbear Guest

    AAvK wrote:
    >
    >> At the risk of topic drift, some cameras
    >> offer TIFF as their "lossless" high quality
    >> mode.

    >
    >
    > That's what my Nikon 950 does. At 8/24 bit color depth.
    >
    >> What correction (if any) has been applied,
    >> and what bit depth is generated?
    >>
    >> BugBear

    >
    >
    >
    > That question doesn't apply unless you would clearify. I am asking what
    > cameras
    > do give higher color bit depth than 8/24. Something to upgrade to, over
    > the very old 950 ('99).


    Yeah - sorry, I wasn't answering your question, more
    asking my own.

    >
    > You are a woodworker on the Albion, yes? I studied your pages a lot,
    > especially using the link page for workbenches, a great help.


    You're welcome. Nice to know my effort has some benefit.

    BugBear
     
    bugbear, Oct 24, 2006
    #11
  12. AAvK

    Peter Chant Guest

    Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:


    > What's the "?" link for next to each line on the comparison page. god
    > helps those who help themselves. Of try a google search on dpreview
    > article raw. I'm not going to spoon feed you just because you're too lazy
    > to look around for yourself. This is basic info.


    Trying swiftly to avoid the flames but probably jumping in with both feet...

    The ? just explains file sizes and compressed v uncompressed formats.
    Unfortunately this does not give the information asked for, bit depths. Or
    is there something I am missing? I'm a bit confused by this as it would
    seem to be desirable information to me.

    Pete

    --
    http://www.petezilla.co.uk
     
    Peter Chant, Oct 24, 2006
    #12
  13. AAvK

    AAvK Guest


    > Trying swiftly to avoid the flames but probably jumping in with both feet...


    I don't blame you. I really should not go off that much, bad stuff.

    > The ? just explains file sizes and compressed v uncompressed formats.
    > Unfortunately this does not give the information asked for, bit depths. Or
    > is there something I am missing? I'm a bit confused by this as it would
    > seem to be desirable information to me.


    Actually Mr. Ruf did give proper advice to read in dpreview, which
    answered
    my prvious question, that if a camera produces a raw file, it simply
    will be 10
    or 12 bit color depth.

    The article also said that a raw is a 'single channel', not three as in
    RGB, that is
    confusing. But, makes for the deepest color that can be at the level
    of 12 bits
    right off the CCD, and a smaller file size.

    > Pete
    >
    > --
    > http://www.petezilla.co.uk


    --
    }<)))*> Giant_Alex
    cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
    not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
     
    AAvK, Oct 24, 2006
    #13
  14. AAvK

    Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:

    > Many non-SLR cameras offer 12-bit raw, I don't believe that any SLR or
    > non-SLR offer 14-bit - yet. Check D P Review for the features of
    > particular cameras - I think you can make a personalised comparison page
    > but don't ask me how!
    >
    > David


    The Lecia DMR produces 16 bit/channel RAW files. How much of those 16
    bits is usable, I don't know.
     
    , Oct 24, 2006
    #14
  15. AAvK

    Peter Chant Guest

    AAvK wrote:


    > Actually Mr. Ruf did give proper advice to read in dpreview, which
    > answered
    > my prvious question, that if a camera produces a raw file, it simply
    > will be 10
    > or 12 bit color depth.
    >


    The page I found by searching appears to be a general comment on raw files,
    I suspect you cannot use it to make assumptions about certain cameras.

    > The article also said that a raw is a 'single channel', not three as in
    > RGB, that is
    > confusing. But, makes for the deepest color that can be at the level
    > of 12 bits
    > right off the CCD, and a smaller file size.


    Well, yes, as you have one sensor any a bayer colour mask. You must
    interpolate to fill in the gaps for each colour to get RGB.

    --
    http://www.petezilla.co.uk
     
    Peter Chant, Oct 25, 2006
    #15
  16. wrote:
    > David J Taylor wrote:
    >
    >> Many non-SLR cameras offer 12-bit raw, I don't believe that any SLR
    >> or non-SLR offer 14-bit - yet. Check D P Review for the features of
    >> particular cameras - I think you can make a personalised comparison
    >> page but don't ask me how!
    >>
    >> David

    >
    > The Lecia DMR produces 16 bit/channel RAW files. How much of those 16
    > bits is usable, I don't know.


    Thanks for that. I couldn't find that camera listed at D P Review. Do
    you happen to know how many bits the camera's ADC uses?

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Oct 25, 2006
    #16
  17. On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:56:59 +0100, in rec.photo.digital Peter Chant
    <> wrote:

    >Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:
    >
    >
    >> What's the "?" link for next to each line on the comparison page. god
    >> helps those who help themselves. Of try a google search on dpreview
    >> article raw. I'm not going to spoon feed you just because you're too lazy
    >> to look around for yourself. This is basic info.

    >
    >Trying swiftly to avoid the flames but probably jumping in with both feet...
    >
    >The ? just explains file sizes and compressed v uncompressed formats.


    ie http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/key=compression

    >Unfortunately this does not give the information asked for, bit depths. Or
    >is there something I am missing? I'm a bit confused by this as it would
    >seem to be desirable information to me.


    Look at the top of the page, see
    Learn : Glossary : Digital Imaging : Compression
    all links and think a bit. Click Digital Imaging in the progression and
    what do you find? A table that directly leads one to:
    http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Digital_Imaging/RAW_01.htm

    Yes I was grumpy. But the OP also happened to push a few specific buttons
    of mine in regard to posts we are getting from more and more visitors to
    this forum. First to quote "Reason I ask is, it's a rather huge endevour
    to search it out." No it's not and to pose as such implies one can't be
    bothered with simple searches. "Laughing off" this suggestion implies even
    worse, imo. Next, "Thanks, tried that but nothing gave any indication of
    "actual" color bit depth... or is it that simply "raw" means it will be a
    higher level, 12/36 no matter what?" So from my view the OP not only can't
    be bothered doing simple searches, but also can't even be bothered even
    giving us such minimal info as to what he's really looked at or tried
    looking at.

    Yes, I was dead, but I'm better now.

    --
    Ed Ruf ()
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!), Oct 26, 2006
    #17
  18. AAvK

    AAvK Guest

    Pete:
    > >Unfortunately this does not give the information asked for, bit depths. Or
    > >is there something I am missing? I'm a bit confused by this as it would
    > >seem to be desirable information to me.


    Mr. Ruf:
    > Look at the top of the page, see
    > Learn : Glossary : Digital Imaging : Compression
    > all links and think a bit. Click Digital Imaging in the progression and
    > what do you find? A table that directly leads one to:
    > http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Digital_Imaging/RAW_01.htm
    >
    > Yes I was grumpy. But the OP also happened to push a few specific buttons
    > of mine in regard to posts we are getting from more and more visitors to
    > this forum. First to quote "Reason I ask is, it's a rather huge endevour
    > to search it out." No it's not and to pose as such implies one can't be
    > bothered with simple searches. "Laughing off" this suggestion implies even
    > worse, imo. Next, "Thanks, tried that but nothing gave any indication of
    > "actual" color bit depth... or is it that simply "raw" means it will be a
    > higher level, 12/36 no matter what?" So from my view the OP not only can't
    > be bothered doing simple searches, but also can't even be bothered even
    > giving us such minimal info as to what he's really looked at or tried
    > looking at.
    >
    > Yes, I was dead, but I'm better now.
    >
    > --
    > Ed Ruf ()
    > http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html



    I hate to say it but that info is actually rather hard to find, even on
    dpreview, and I have been searching the 'net since 1998. As well,
    your advice does not genuinly provide the answer, neither do the
    camera makers websites, so Pete's last paragraph makes sense more
    than you do Mr. Ruf, your answer to that did not relate to it.

    I saw the link you provided before you did in your latest reply, I
    searched for it and read the whole page.**

    What can be found is an extremely generalized text and images as
    "the explaination of raw", isn't seemingly exacting, especially per
    camera. No one really knows beyond that dpreview explaination
    unless there is a knowledgeable fellow who is bro enough to
    understand and reply kindly. Of course give the idea to Phil Askey,
    anyone knows he will no doubt NOT update every listing of cameras
    to that info as a huge load of work, and it's too late now.

    The reason to ask such a question in public like this because searching

    for such answeres per P/S camera is next to impossible considering
    the complexities of such 'search terms' that would be required and the
    time it would take to perform such a task. So what is it with you?
    You could not be bothered to take such obvious ideas into
    consideration,
    and I don't need the negativity. Those are the things that pushed my
    buttons from you.

    However, it is now well understood that if a camera produces a genuine
    raw file that right off the ccd, it will be 10 or 12 bit color depth as
    a
    single channel (not three rgb), as stated by dpreview. What else can
    we about it besides that?

    --
    }<)))*> Giant_Alex
    cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
    not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
     
    AAvK, Oct 26, 2006
    #18
  19. AAvK

    Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > wrote:
    >
    > > The Lecia DMR produces 16 bit/channel RAW files. How much of those 16
    > > bits is usable, I don't know.

    >
    > Thanks for that. I couldn't find that camera listed at D P Review. Do
    > you happen to know how many bits the camera's ADC uses?
    >
    > David


    You can read about the DMR here:
    http://www.leica-camera.us/photography/r_system/digital-modul-r/

    The DMR uses a Kodak KAF-10010 CCD image sensor. From the data sheet,
    the sensor has a dynamic range of 67 dB. If I remember my signal
    processing facts, that corresponds to a hair over 11 bits. The data
    sheet is here:
    http://www.kodak.com/ezpres/busines.../en/datasheet/fullframe/KAF-10010LongSpec.pdf

    BTW, the Lecia M8 uses a newer KAF-10050 sensor. It has a dynamic
    range of 76 dB, almost 13 bits. The M8 is on dpreview:
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Leica/leica_m8.asp
     
    , Oct 27, 2006
    #19
  20. AAvK

    John Turco Guest

    AAvK wrote:

    <heavily edited, for brevity>

    > God helps those that ASK in FAITH to him. And that IS there, for those that
    > accept him through CHRIST! You can prove it to yourself by clicking the link
    > in my sig. It has a search engine, and many versions.
    >
    > I forgive you, I AM psychologically more powerful than you are, and you are
    > not* plonked just so I can monitor you. Do not reply to me, anywhere.
    >
    > --
    > }<)))*> Giant_Alex
    > cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
    > not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/



    Hello, Alex:

    Each of the words, "him," "his" and "he," should invariably be spelled
    with a capital "H," whenever they refer to the Lord Almighty.


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Oct 27, 2006
    #20
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