Difficulty with echo and quality on PSTN calls with SPA3000

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by David Floyd, Mar 29, 2008.

  1. David Floyd

    David Floyd Guest

    For over two years now I've been using an SPA3000 with voip.co.uk with
    no problem.

    I have not used BT during this time, but now that free calls are
    available evening and week-ends with BT, whereas they are still 1ppm
    with voip.co.uk I have set up the SPA so that I can make calls via BT
    when I need to.

    The trouble is I cannot get the quality right.

    Apparently the person I call hears me fine and I can hear them OK, but I
    get an echo form my own voice and sometimes a bit of breaking up when
    both parties cross talk.

    I won't list all my settings here at this point (far too many) but if
    any-one has any ideas to correct this and wants to know particular
    settings that I already have, I'll list whatever you request.

    I cannot understand why the quality should be affected when it's not a
    voip call :-(

    Hope some-one can help.

    David
    David Floyd, Mar 29, 2008
    #1
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  2. David Floyd

    Jono Guest

    David Floyd laid this down on his screen :
    > For over two years now I've been using an SPA3000 with voip.co.uk with no
    > problem.
    >
    > I have not used BT during this time, but now that free calls are available
    > evening and week-ends with BT, whereas they are still 1ppm with voip.co.uk I
    > have set up the SPA so that I can make calls via BT when I need to.
    >
    > The trouble is I cannot get the quality right.
    >
    > Apparently the person I call hears me fine and I can hear them OK, but I get
    > an echo form my own voice and sometimes a bit of breaking up when both
    > parties cross talk.
    >
    > I won't list all my settings here at this point (far too many) but if any-one
    > has any ideas to correct this and wants to know particular settings that I
    > already have, I'll list whatever you request.
    >
    > I cannot understand why the quality should be affected when it's not a voip
    > call :-(
    >
    > Hope some-one can help.
    >
    > David


    I found that, tweaking the gain settings and upgrading the firmware to
    the latest Linksys branded version, dramatically reduced PSTN audio
    problems.

    What firmware are you running? I've just had a quick look on the
    Linksys site and they appear to have removed the firmware.....

    I have a copy of spa3000-3-1-20GW.bin if you need it.
    Jono, Mar 29, 2008
    #2
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  3. David Floyd

    David Floyd Guest

    In message of Sat, 29 Mar 2008, Jono writes
    >David Floyd laid this down on his screen :
    >> For over two years now I've been using an SPA3000 with voip.co.uk
    >>with no problem.
    >>
    >> I have not used BT during this time, but now that free calls are
    >>available evening and week-ends with BT, whereas they are still 1ppm
    >>with voip.co.uk I have set up the SPA so that I can make calls via BT
    >>when I need to.
    >>
    >> The trouble is I cannot get the quality right.
    >>
    >> Apparently the person I call hears me fine and I can hear them OK,
    >>but I get an echo form my own voice and sometimes a bit of breaking
    >>up when both parties cross talk.
    >>
    >> I won't list all my settings here at this point (far too many) but if
    >>any-one has any ideas to correct this and wants to know particular
    >>settings that I already have, I'll list whatever you request.
    >>
    >> I cannot understand why the quality should be affected when it's not
    >>a voip call :-(
    >>
    >> Hope some-one can help.
    >>
    >> David

    >
    >I found that, tweaking the gain settings


    I have SPA to PSTN Gain: 10
    and PSTN to SPA Gain: 10

    >and upgrading the firmware to the latest Linksys branded version,
    >dramatically reduced PSTN audio problems.
    >
    >What firmware are you running?


    What is meant by firmware? The info tab shows Software Version:
    3.1.10(GWd) and Hardware Version: 2.0.1(99e2)

    >I've just had a quick look on the Linksys site and they appear to have
    >removed the firmware.....
    >
    >I have a copy of spa3000-3-1-20GW.bin if you need it.
    >
    >


    Are there instructions on how to go about installing it?

    Thanks for your help
    David

    It looks as though we are both using email addresses that can't be
    communicated with - I'll set up a special one for this and let you know.

    David
    David Floyd, Mar 29, 2008
    #3
  4. David Floyd

    Jono Guest

    David Floyd formulated on Saturday :
    > In message of Sat, 29 Mar 2008, Jono writes
    >>David Floyd laid this down on his screen :
    >>> For over two years now I've been using an SPA3000 with voip.co.uk with no
    >>> problem.
    >>>
    >>> I have not used BT during this time, but now that free calls are available
    >>> evening and week-ends with BT, whereas they are still 1ppm with
    >>> voip.co.uk I have set up the SPA so that I can make calls via BT when I
    >>> need to.
    >>>
    >>> The trouble is I cannot get the quality right.
    >>>
    >>> Apparently the person I call hears me fine and I can hear them OK, but I
    >>> get an echo form my own voice and sometimes a bit of breaking up when
    >>> both parties cross talk.
    >>>
    >>> I won't list all my settings here at this point (far too many) but if
    >>> any-one has any ideas to correct this and wants to know particular
    >>> settings that I already have, I'll list whatever you request.
    >>>
    >>> I cannot understand why the quality should be affected when it's not a
    >>> voip call :-(
    >>>
    >>> Hope some-one can help.
    >>>
    >>> David

    >>
    >>I found that, tweaking the gain settings

    >
    > I have SPA to PSTN Gain: 10
    > and PSTN to SPA Gain: 10


    I would drop these bit by bit.


    >>and upgrading the firmware to the latest Linksys branded version,
    >> dramatically reduced PSTN audio problems.
    >>
    >>What firmware are you running?

    >
    > What is meant by firmware? The info tab shows Software Version: 3.1.10(GWd)
    > and Hardware Version: 2.0.1(99e2)


    Software Version: 3.1.20(GW) Hardware Version: 2.0.1(81e2) on mine -
    I'm not saying it's brilliant on PSTN calls but it's always worth a
    try.

    >
    >>I've just had a quick look on the Linksys site and they appear to have
    >> removed the firmware.....
    >>
    >>I have a copy of spa3000-3-1-20GW.bin if you need it.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Are there instructions on how to go about installing it?


    There is a tool for performing the upgrade but it usually doesn't work.
    the easiest way is to do it via a browser & a website:

    You can put the raw firmware image "spa.bin" on a reachable tftp or
    webserver server

    Goto your web browser, and type in:
    http://IPADDYOFSPA/upgrade?http://WEBSERVER/spa3000-3-1-20GW.bin

    With firmware 1.0.30 and above, you can use http in place of tftp
    method.

    At any time during the 40-seconds upgrade process, please don't unplug
    the power.

    >
    > Thanks for your help
    > David
    >
    > It looks as though we are both using email addresses that can't be
    > communicated with - I'll set up a special one for this and let you know.


    No probs.
    Jono, Mar 29, 2008
    #4
  5. David Floyd

    Steve Hayes Guest

    David Floyd wrote:

    > For over two years now I've been using an SPA3000 with voip.co.uk with
    > no problem.
    >
    > I have not used BT during this time, but now that free calls are
    > available evening and week-ends with BT, whereas they are still 1ppm
    > with voip.co.uk I have set up the SPA so that I can make calls via BT
    > when I need to.
    >
    > The trouble is I cannot get the quality right.
    >
    > Apparently the person I call hears me fine and I can hear them OK, but I
    > get an echo form my own voice and sometimes a bit of breaking up when
    > both parties cross talk.
    >
    > I won't list all my settings here at this point (far too many) but if
    > any-one has any ideas to correct this and wants to know particular
    > settings that I already have, I'll list whatever you request.
    >
    > I cannot understand why the quality should be affected when it's not a
    > voip call :-(
    >
    > Hope some-one can help.
    >
    > David


    I've been round and round on this one with the SPA3102. The basic problem is
    a stupid design. Using VOIP internally between the FXS and FXO ports is
    unnecessary and the resulting delay makes echoes a problem.

    There is loads of advice on-line about tweaking gains, etc. but I never
    found that this helped significantly. In the end, I just tried the three
    echo cancellation/suppression settings on the PSTN tab to find the least
    objectionable combination:

    Echo canc enable needs to be on.

    Turning Echo canc adapt enable on works great most of the time but it fails
    horribly when both ends speak at once. Then there are really loud and
    disconcerting bursts of echo. Keep this one off.

    Then there is a tradeoff with Echo supp enable. If it's off, the echo is
    annoying. If it's on, you won't hear the other end if you both speak at
    once. On balance, I've resorted to having it on and get relatively few
    complaints.

    The SPA3102 is a great device except for two big flaws: far too many
    settings and awful echo problems. They should have consulted someone who
    knew something about telephony when they were designing it.

    Steve

    --
    --- remove colours from e-mail address ---
    Steve Hayes, Mar 31, 2008
    #5
  6. David Floyd

    Nick Guest

    Steve Hayes wrote:

    > I've been round and round on this one with the SPA3102. The basic problem is
    > a stupid design. Using VOIP internally between the FXS and FXO ports is
    > unnecessary and the resulting delay makes echoes a problem.
    >
    > There is loads of advice on-line about tweaking gains, etc. but I never
    > found that this helped significantly. In the end, I just tried the three
    > echo cancellation/suppression settings on the PSTN tab to find the least
    > objectionable combination:
    >
    > Echo canc enable needs to be on.
    >
    > Turning Echo canc adapt enable on works great most of the time but it fails
    > horribly when both ends speak at once. Then there are really loud and
    > disconcerting bursts of echo. Keep this one off.
    >
    > Then there is a tradeoff with Echo supp enable. If it's off, the echo is
    > annoying. If it's on, you won't hear the other end if you both speak at
    > once. On balance, I've resorted to having it on and get relatively few
    > complaints.
    >
    > The SPA3102 is a great device except for two big flaws: far too many
    > settings and awful echo problems. They should have consulted someone who
    > knew something about telephony when they were designing it.
    >


    Thanks this sounds very similar to the problems I've been having. I
    haven't been analytic about it but this all sounds very convincing.

    I think you are right about the 3102, it is ok as a toy but it isn't
    really good enough for normal users.

    I was thinking of buying siemans SP450 IP but some people are reporting
    problems with them so I thought I'd wait a bit in the hope that the
    market matures. I don't want to spend another £100 on a product that
    isn't quite there.


    > Steve
    >
    Nick, Mar 31, 2008
    #6
  7. In article <>,
    Nick <> wrote:

    >I was thinking of buying siemans SP450 IP but some people are reporting
    >problems with them so I thought I'd wait a bit in the hope that the
    >market matures. I don't want to spend another £100 on a product that
    >isn't quite there.


    I seem to have missed the start of this thread, but I'm someone who's
    whinging about the Siemens C460IP phone (not the S450's)

    And even though I have problems with the C460's I'd suggest that if the
    phone is fomr home use, then it works very well - I have to reboot the
    one I use at home maybe once a month. It's the ones I have in busy shops
    that need rebooting at least once a week, sometimes more.

    Gordon
    Gordon Henderson, Mar 31, 2008
    #7
  8. David Floyd

    Dave Saville Guest

    On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:53:06 UTC, Nick <> wrote:

    > I was thinking of buying siemans SP450 IP but some people are reporting
    > problems with them so I thought I'd wait a bit in the hope that the
    > market matures. I don't want to spend another œ100 on a product that
    > isn't quite there.


    Go for it - Just don't buy from Tesco - locked to their system - and
    make sure you upgrade to the latest f/w. Had my three handset system a
    couple of months and only minor niggles. Some of which went once I
    understood the phones better. :)

    --
    Regards
    Dave Saville

    NB Remove nospam. for good email address
    Dave Saville, Mar 31, 2008
    #8
  9. David Floyd

    Ian Pawson Guest

    Nick wrote:
    > Steve Hayes wrote:
    >
    >> I've been round and round on this one with the SPA3102. The basic
    >> problem is
    >> a stupid design. Using VOIP internally between the FXS and FXO ports is
    >> unnecessary and the resulting delay makes echoes a problem.
    >>
    >> There is loads of advice on-line about tweaking gains, etc. but I never
    >> found that this helped significantly. In the end, I just tried the three
    >> echo cancellation/suppression settings on the PSTN tab to find the least
    >> objectionable combination:
    >>
    >> Echo canc enable needs to be on.
    >>
    >> Turning Echo canc adapt enable on works great most of the time but it
    >> fails
    >> horribly when both ends speak at once. Then there are really loud and
    >> disconcerting bursts of echo. Keep this one off.
    >>
    >> Then there is a tradeoff with Echo supp enable. If it's off, the echo is
    >> annoying. If it's on, you won't hear the other end if you both speak at
    >> once. On balance, I've resorted to having it on and get relatively few
    >> complaints.
    >>
    >> The SPA3102 is a great device except for two big flaws: far too many
    >> settings and awful echo problems. They should have consulted someone who
    >> knew something about telephony when they were designing it.
    >>

    >
    > Thanks this sounds very similar to the problems I've been having. I
    > haven't been analytic about it but this all sounds very convincing.
    >
    > I think you are right about the 3102, it is ok as a toy but it isn't
    > really good enough for normal users.
    >
    > I was thinking of buying siemans SP450 IP but some people are reporting
    > problems with them so I thought I'd wait a bit in the hope that the
    > market matures. I don't want to spend another £100 on a product that
    > isn't quite there.
    >
    >
    >> Steve
    >>

    Just ordered a C475IP a snip at £80, I am 'upgrading' from a SPA3000
    Ian Pawson, Mar 31, 2008
    #9
  10. In article <>,
    Jono <> writes:
    > David Floyd laid this down on his screen :
    >> For over two years now I've been using an SPA3000 with voip.co.uk with no
    >> problem.
    >>
    >> I have not used BT during this time, but now that free calls are available
    >> evening and week-ends with BT, whereas they are still 1ppm with voip.co.uk I
    >> have set up the SPA so that I can make calls via BT when I need to.
    >>
    >> The trouble is I cannot get the quality right.
    >>
    >> Apparently the person I call hears me fine and I can hear them OK, but I get
    >> an echo form my own voice and sometimes a bit of breaking up when both
    >> parties cross talk.
    >>
    >> I won't list all my settings here at this point (far too many) but if any-one
    >> has any ideas to correct this and wants to know particular settings that I
    >> already have, I'll list whatever you request.
    >>
    >> I cannot understand why the quality should be affected when it's not a voip
    >> call :-(


    It is a VoIP call. The SPA3000 has two VoIP units inside, one
    on the FXS and one on the FXO. The two ports communicate
    internally using VoIP when passing a call through.

    Having said that, I've never had this echo problem on any of
    the SPA3000's I have in use.

    >> Hope some-one can help.
    >>
    >> David

    >
    > I found that, tweaking the gain settings and upgrading the firmware to
    > the latest Linksys branded version, dramatically reduced PSTN audio
    > problems.
    >
    > What firmware are you running? I've just had a quick look on the
    > Linksys site and they appear to have removed the firmware.....
    >
    > I have a copy of spa3000-3-1-20GW.bin if you need it.


    Still on linksys's website. Don't know if this URL will work in
    someone else's session -- if not, follow links for support and
    select product

    http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Sate...6167861B01&displaypage=download#versiondetail

    I'm running 3.1.10 on all mine (and have had many earlier versions
    on them too). Didn't actually know there was anything later until
    you mentioned it -- they seem to have stopped updating the old
    sipura website.

    --
    Andrew Gabriel
    [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
    Andrew Gabriel, Apr 1, 2008
    #10
  11. David Floyd

    Jono Guest

    Andrew Gabriel used his keyboard to write :

    >
    > I've never had this echo problem on any of
    > the SPA3000's I have in use.


    Can you post yolur config somewhere?

    >>
    >> I have a copy of spa3000-3-1-20GW.bin if you need it.

    >
    > Still on linksys's website. Don't know if this URL will work in
    > someone else's session -- if not, follow links for support and
    > select product
    >
    > <http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Sate...861&packedargs=sku=SPA3000&pagename=Linksys/C
    >
    >


    They must've put it back since I posted! P'rhaps they read this NG..

    The link does work


    > I'm running 3.1.10 on all mine (and have had many earlier versions
    > on them too). Didn't actually know there was anything later until
    > you mentioned it -- they seem to have stopped updating the old
    > sipura website.
    Jono, Apr 1, 2008
    #11
  12. D'apres David Floyd <>,
    dans le forum uk.telecom.voip...

    > Apparently the person I call hears me fine and I can hear them OK, but I
    > get an echo form my own voice and sometimes a bit of breaking up when
    > both parties cross talk.


    Did you adjust the line impedance settings ? Both for FXO and FXS ?
    Marc Zirnheld, Apr 3, 2008
    #12
  13. David Floyd

    David Floyd Guest

    In message of Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Marc Zirnheld writes
    >D'apres David Floyd <>,
    >dans le forum uk.telecom.voip...
    >
    >> Apparently the person I call hears me fine and I can hear them OK, but I
    >> get an echo form my own voice and sometimes a bit of breaking up when
    >> both parties cross talk.

    >
    >Did you adjust the line impedance settings ? Both for FXO and FXS ?
    >
    >


    Yes, but if you read other posts on this subject in the past as I have
    now done, this is a known problem with making PSTN calls on a SPA3K

    David
    David Floyd, Apr 4, 2008
    #13
  14. D'apres David Floyd <>,
    dans le forum uk.telecom.voip...

    > >Did you adjust the line impedance settings ? Both for FXO and FXS ?


    > Yes, but if you read other posts on this subject in the past as I have
    > now done, this is a known problem with making PSTN calls on a SPA3K


    That's right, but having good settings helps the echo canceller
    operation, thus reducing (even if not totally eliminating) the
    perceivable echo.
    Marc Zirnheld, Apr 10, 2008
    #14
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