DHCP assigning IP to others.

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by cowboyz, Jan 4, 2004.

  1. cowboyz

    cowboyz Guest

    How does a host computer decide who gets what IP.


    I ask because of the following.

    For about a month or more I have had an Xbox hooked into my PC. The PC is
    host and Xbox set to obtain IP automatically. Sometimes the Xbox is off,
    sometimes the PC is off. Doesn't matter which order you turn them on the IP
    of the Xbox is always 192.168.0.38

    That was until I wrote an automatic script to fetch my saved games off the
    xbox. Next reboot the xbox was on 192.168.0.12

    No big deal to get around it I set the Xbox to static IP but I was wondering
    how XP decides who gets what IP. If the Xbox had a different IP every day
    I could understand it. But then again, why isn't the Xbox allocated
    192.168.0.2? I would think that when assigning IP address's it would ping
    the next in queue and if no reply then give out that one.

    Is this a reasonable question or just one of those things we accept and move
    on?
     
    cowboyz, Jan 4, 2004
    #1
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  2. cowboyz

    Dave Taylor Guest


    > No big deal to get around it I set the Xbox to static IP but I was
    > wondering how XP decides who gets what IP. If the Xbox had a
    > different IP every day I could understand it. But then again, why
    > isn't the Xbox allocated 192.168.0.2? I would think that when
    > assigning IP address's it would ping the next in queue and if no reply
    > then give out that one.
    >
    > Is this a reasonable question or just one of those things we accept
    > and move on?
    >
    >
    >
    >

    It is microsoft, move along, nothing to see....

    The IP address was assigned using DHCP. If you do an ipconfig /all in a
    command window, (start, run, cmd, enter, ipconfig /all, enter) you will
    see a line listing the lease time. This is the amount of time that the
    DHCP server (your router, ISP whatever) has allocated for the MAC address
    of the XP machine. Windows does strange things, like randomize the next
    IP assigned, in its DHCP server.( A psuedo-security feature) In you
    situation you are better off with a staticly assigned IP for the Xbox.
    Never ever write scripts based on IP addresses in a DHCP environment if
    at all possible, as you have noticed.
    Ciao, Dave
     
    Dave Taylor, Jan 4, 2004
    #2
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  3. cowboyz

    Enkidu Guest

    On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:50:35 +1300, "cowboyz" <> wrote:

    >How does a host computer decide who gets what IP.
    >
    >
    >I ask because of the following.
    >
    >For about a month or more I have had an Xbox hooked into my PC. The PC is
    >host and Xbox set to obtain IP automatically. Sometimes the Xbox is off,
    >sometimes the PC is off. Doesn't matter which order you turn them on the IP
    >of the Xbox is always 192.168.0.38
    >
    >That was until I wrote an automatic script to fetch my saved games off the
    >xbox. Next reboot the xbox was on 192.168.0.12
    >
    >No big deal to get around it I set the Xbox to static IP but I was wondering
    >how XP decides who gets what IP. If the Xbox had a different IP every day
    >I could understand it. But then again, why isn't the Xbox allocated
    >192.168.0.2? I would think that when assigning IP address's it would ping
    >the next in queue and if no reply then give out that one.
    >

    It can't do that because the PC that is currently leased that address
    might be off, but may come on again before the lease expires. If it
    just pinged and gave out the address, then when the PC came on line
    there would be an IP address conflict. So it must give out an unleased
    address. Again it doesn't ping becuse it knows that there should be no
    machine likely to come on with that address.

    Sorry, I don't know the algorithm that is used!
    >
    >Is this a reasonable question or just one of those things we accept and move
    >on?
    >

    There may be something on it on the Internet I guess. Tried a Google?

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    Christmas comes but once a year, thank the gods. I don't think
    that I could cope with twice.
     
    Enkidu, Jan 4, 2004
    #3
  4. cowboyz

    T.N.O. Guest

    Enkidu wrote:
    > Again it doesn't ping becuse it knows that there should be no
    > machine likely to come on with that address.


    Also, if your machine is set not to reply to echo requests(pings) then
    it wont respond to pings(obviously) and the dhcp server would try to
    hand out that IP, and that aint gonna work.
     
    T.N.O., Jan 4, 2004
    #4
  5. cowboyz

    XPD Guest

    XPD, Jan 4, 2004
    #5
  6. cowboyz

    Enkidu Guest

    On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 10:03:57 +1300, "T.N.O." <> wrote:

    >Enkidu wrote:
    >> Again it doesn't ping becuse it knows that there should be no
    >> machine likely to come on with that address.

    >
    >Also, if your machine is set not to reply to echo requests(pings) then
    >it wont respond to pings(obviously) and the dhcp server would try to
    >hand out that IP, and that aint gonna work.
    >

    Yeah, but there's no good reason not to respond to pings on a network.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    Christmas comes but once a year, thank the gods. I don't think
    that I could cope with twice.
     
    Enkidu, Jan 4, 2004
    #6
  7. cowboyz

    cowboyz Guest

    "Dave Taylor" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9467625CCBEE0daveytaynospamplshot@202.20.93.13...
    >
    > > No big deal to get around it I set the Xbox to static IP but I was
    > > wondering how XP decides who gets what IP. If the Xbox had a
    > > different IP every day I could understand it. But then again, why
    > > isn't the Xbox allocated 192.168.0.2? I would think that when
    > > assigning IP address's it would ping the next in queue and if no reply
    > > then give out that one.
    > >
    > > Is this a reasonable question or just one of those things we accept
    > > and move on?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    > It is microsoft, move along, nothing to see....
    >
    > The IP address was assigned using DHCP. If you do an ipconfig /all in a
    > command window, (start, run, cmd, enter, ipconfig /all, enter) you will
    > see a line listing the lease time. This is the amount of time that the
    > DHCP server (your router, ISP whatever) has allocated for the MAC address
    > of the XP machine.



    Oh. That makes sense.

    >Windows does strange things, like randomize the next
    > IP assigned, in its DHCP server.( A psuedo-security feature)


    Not a particularly good security feature but .....

    >In you
    > situation you are better off with a staticly assigned IP for the Xbox.


    I came to that conclusion too.

    > Never ever write scripts based on IP addresses in a DHCP environment if
    > at all possible, as you have noticed.
    > Ciao, Dave
     
    cowboyz, Jan 4, 2004
    #7
  8. cowboyz

    cowboyz Guest

    Enkidu wrote:
    > On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:50:35 +1300, "cowboyz" <> wrote:
    >
    >> How does a host computer decide who gets what IP.
    >>
    >>
    >> I ask because of the following.
    >>
    >> For about a month or more I have had an Xbox hooked into my PC. The
    >> PC is host and Xbox set to obtain IP automatically. Sometimes the
    >> Xbox is off, sometimes the PC is off. Doesn't matter which order
    >> you turn them on the IP of the Xbox is always 192.168.0.38
    >>
    >> That was until I wrote an automatic script to fetch my saved games
    >> off the xbox. Next reboot the xbox was on 192.168.0.12
    >>
    >> No big deal to get around it I set the Xbox to static IP but I was
    >> wondering how XP decides who gets what IP. If the Xbox had a
    >> different IP every day I could understand it. But then again, why
    >> isn't the Xbox allocated 192.168.0.2? I would think that when
    >> assigning IP address's it would ping the next in queue and if no
    >> reply then give out that one.
    >>

    > It can't do that because the PC that is currently leased that address
    > might be off, but may come on again before the lease expires. If it
    > just pinged and gave out the address, then when the PC came on line
    > there would be an IP address conflict.



    Why is that? If PC1 was hosting at x.x.x.1 and PC2 was on and got assigned
    x.x.x.2 and PC3 was x.x.x.3 and then pc2 and pc3 were turned off and pc 3
    was turned on pc1 would ping x.x.x.2 to find it doesn't exist and allocate
    x.x.x.2 to pc3. When pc2 gets turned on pc1 would ping x.x.x.2 to get a
    reply so ping x.x.x.3 to get no reply so pc2 would become x.x.x.3.

    Seems logical.
    The only thing holding up this theroy is leases. But if there were no
    leases it would work fine.

    >So it must give out an unleased
    > address. Again it doesn't ping becuse it knows that there should be no
    > machine likely to come on with that address.
    >
    > Sorry, I don't know the algorithm that is used!
    >>
    >> Is this a reasonable question or just one of those things we accept
    >> and move on?
    >>

    > There may be something on it on the Internet I guess. Tried a Google?
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff
     
    cowboyz, Jan 4, 2004
    #8
  9. cowboyz

    cowboyz Guest

    T.N.O. wrote:
    > Enkidu wrote:
    >> Again it doesn't ping becuse it knows that there should be no
    >> machine likely to come on with that address.

    >
    > Also, if your machine is set not to reply to echo requests(pings) then
    > it wont respond to pings(obviously) and the dhcp server would try to
    > hand out that IP, and that aint gonna work.


    I didn't think that machines firewalled would respond in dhcp environment
    anyway (excluding host). Completely untested but I didn't think it would
    work.
     
    cowboyz, Jan 4, 2004
    #9
  10. cowboyz

    cowboyz Guest

    cowboyz, Jan 4, 2004
    #10
  11. Enkidu wrote:
    >>>Again it doesn't ping becuse it knows that there should be no
    >>>machine likely to come on with that address.


    >>Also, if your machine is set not to reply to echo requests(pings) then
    >>it wont respond to pings(obviously) and the dhcp server would try to
    >>hand out that IP, and that aint gonna work.


    > Yeah, but there's no good reason not to respond to pings on a network.


    heh, true, but it could happen if someone is a security freak.
    "gotta firewall everything"
    "Im being attacked by my ISP's DNS servers on port 53, mail servers on
    25 and 110, ring the admin and make them stop."
    It happens.
    --
    Http://www.dave.net.nz
    There is Hangman there.
     
    T.N.O. - Dave.net.nz, Jan 4, 2004
    #11
  12. cowboyz wrote:
    >>Also, if your machine is set not to reply to echo requests(pings) then
    >>it wont respond to pings(obviously) and the dhcp server would try to
    >>hand out that IP, and that aint gonna work.


    > I didn't think that machines firewalled would respond in dhcp environment
    > anyway (excluding host). Completely untested but I didn't think it would
    > work.


    Depends on how it is setup.
    also I was meaning more along the lines of filtering rather than
    firewalling.

    --
    Http://www.dave.net.nz
    There is Hangman there.
     
    T.N.O. - Dave.net.nz, Jan 4, 2004
    #12
  13. cowboyz

    Enkidu Guest

    On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:13:52 +1300, "cowboyz" <> wrote:

    >T.N.O. wrote:
    >> Enkidu wrote:
    >>> Again it doesn't ping becuse it knows that there should be no
    >>> machine likely to come on with that address.

    >>
    >> Also, if your machine is set not to reply to echo requests(pings) then
    >> it wont respond to pings(obviously) and the dhcp server would try to
    >> hand out that IP, and that aint gonna work.

    >
    >I didn't think that machines firewalled would respond in dhcp
    >environment anyway (excluding host). Completely untested but I didn't
    >think it would work.
    >

    That's a thought. If the fw stops broadcasts then DHCP will not work.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    Christmas comes but once a year, thank the gods. I don't think
    that I could cope with twice.
     
    Enkidu, Jan 5, 2004
    #13
  14. cowboyz

    Enkidu Guest

    On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:12:50 +1300, "cowboyz" <> wrote:

    >Enkidu wrote:
    >> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:50:35 +1300, "cowboyz" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> How does a host computer decide who gets what IP.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> I ask because of the following.
    >>>
    >>> For about a month or more I have had an Xbox hooked into my PC. The
    >>> PC is host and Xbox set to obtain IP automatically. Sometimes the
    >>> Xbox is off, sometimes the PC is off. Doesn't matter which order
    >>> you turn them on the IP of the Xbox is always 192.168.0.38
    >>>
    >>> That was until I wrote an automatic script to fetch my saved games
    >>> off the xbox. Next reboot the xbox was on 192.168.0.12
    >>>
    >>> No big deal to get around it I set the Xbox to static IP but I was
    >>> wondering how XP decides who gets what IP. If the Xbox had a
    >>> different IP every day I could understand it. But then again, why
    >>> isn't the Xbox allocated 192.168.0.2? I would think that when
    >>> assigning IP address's it would ping the next in queue and if no
    >>> reply then give out that one.
    >>>

    >> It can't do that because the PC that is currently leased that address
    >> might be off, but may come on again before the lease expires. If it
    >> just pinged and gave out the address, then when the PC came on line
    >> there would be an IP address conflict.

    >
    >
    >Why is that? If PC1 was hosting at x.x.x.1 and PC2 was on and got assigned
    >x.x.x.2 and PC3 was x.x.x.3 and then pc2 and pc3 were turned off and pc 3
    >was turned on pc1 would ping x.x.x.2 to find it doesn't exist and allocate
    >x.x.x.2 to pc3. When pc2 gets turned on pc1 would ping x.x.x.2 to get a
    >reply so ping x.x.x.3 to get no reply so pc2 would become x.x.x.3.
    >
    >Seems logical.
    >The only thing holding up this theroy is leases. But if there were no
    >leases it would work fine.
    >

    Well, yes, but the reason for leases is to cut down on all this
    pinging! Actually you've missed a step or three. When the machine
    starts up it either has a leased address or it doesn't. If it doesn't
    have a leased address, it doesn't know *anything* about the network,
    ie where the DHCP server is. So it broadcasts "Anyone give me an
    address"? The DHCP servers on the network respond "How about this
    one?" The client then broadcasts "OK, I'll take the one from server
    X". Server X says "Gotcha" and registers the lease. All other DHCP
    servers give up. The client receives the ACK from server X and starts
    using the DHCP info. If the lease is for a reasonable length of time
    (eg 2 days) the the client doesn't need to check for an address when
    it comes up, as it already has the lease information. Actually it will
    renew after half the lease time, generally about a day.

    And the IP addresses therefore tend to "stick" over a much longer
    period.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    Christmas comes but once a year, thank the gods. I don't think
    that I could cope with twice.
     
    Enkidu, Jan 5, 2004
    #14
  15. cowboyz

    Enkidu Guest

    On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:15:01 +1300, "cowboyz" <> wrote:

    >XPD wrote:
    >> "cowboyz" <> wrote in message
    >> news:bt9qqc$b5m$...
    >>> How does a host computer decide who gets what IP.
    >>>

    >>

    >http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci213894,00.html
    >>
    >> Maybe of some help :)

    >
    >ta. explains the concept of a lease. which seems to me like the concept of a
    >lawyer. (If it weren't for lawyers, we wouldn't need lawyers)
    >

    The benefits of DHCP are mostly for larger networks. Just plug a
    machine in and it works. Also DHCP supplies a lot more info, such as
    DNS servers and default gateway. Imagine having to visit several
    thousand machines to change the DNS gateway info with static
    configurations!

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    Christmas comes but once a year, thank the gods. I don't think
    that I could cope with twice.
     
    Enkidu, Jan 5, 2004
    #15
  16. cowboyz

    AD. Guest

    On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:04:24 +1300, Enkidu wrote:

    > the ACK from server X and starts using the DHCP info. If the lease is for
    > a reasonable length of time (eg 2 days) the the client doesn't need to
    > check for an address when it comes up, as it already has the lease
    > information. Actually it will renew after half the lease time, generally
    > about a day.


    I seem to remember that it also happens at 75% as well.

    >
    > And the IP addresses therefore tend to "stick" over a much longer period.


    (From memory - corrections welcome) This is usually because the the 50%
    and 75% events aren't full renewals, more like a reconfirmation of the
    existing lease. The 100% check/renewal will normally just dish out the
    same address, unless further time had already passed and the lease
    had since expired - then you might end up with a new one.

    Although different DHCP implementations are bound to have slight
    differences.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Jan 5, 2004
    #16
  17. cowboyz

    Enkidu Guest

    On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 16:20:01 +1300, "AD." <> wrote:

    >On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:04:24 +1300, Enkidu wrote:
    >
    >> the ACK from server X and starts using the DHCP info. If the lease is for
    >> a reasonable length of time (eg 2 days) the the client doesn't need to
    >> check for an address when it comes up, as it already has the lease
    >> information. Actually it will renew after half the lease time, generally
    >> about a day.

    >
    >I seem to remember that it also happens at 75% as well.
    >
    >>
    >> And the IP addresses therefore tend to "stick" over a much longer period.

    >
    >(From memory - corrections welcome) This is usually because the the 50%
    >and 75% events aren't full renewals, more like a reconfirmation of the
    >existing lease. The 100% check/renewal will normally just dish out the
    >same address, unless further time had already passed and the lease
    >had since expired - then you might end up with a new one.
    >
    >Although different DHCP implementations are bound to have slight
    >differences.
    >

    Pretty much. You can set it up to dish out a new IP address each time
    if you wish.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    Christmas comes but once a year, thank the gods. I don't think
    that I could cope with twice.
     
    Enkidu, Jan 5, 2004
    #17
  18. cowboyz

    cowboyz Guest

    Enkidu wrote:
    > On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:12:50 +1300, "cowboyz" <> wrote:
    >
    >> Enkidu wrote:
    >>> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:50:35 +1300, "cowboyz" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> How does a host computer decide who gets what IP.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> I ask because of the following.
    >>>>
    >>>> For about a month or more I have had an Xbox hooked into my PC.
    >>>> The PC is host and Xbox set to obtain IP automatically. Sometimes
    >>>> the Xbox is off, sometimes the PC is off. Doesn't matter which
    >>>> order you turn them on the IP of the Xbox is always 192.168.0.38
    >>>>
    >>>> That was until I wrote an automatic script to fetch my saved games
    >>>> off the xbox. Next reboot the xbox was on 192.168.0.12
    >>>>
    >>>> No big deal to get around it I set the Xbox to static IP but I was
    >>>> wondering how XP decides who gets what IP. If the Xbox had a
    >>>> different IP every day I could understand it. But then again, why
    >>>> isn't the Xbox allocated 192.168.0.2? I would think that when
    >>>> assigning IP address's it would ping the next in queue and if no
    >>>> reply then give out that one.
    >>>>
    >>> It can't do that because the PC that is currently leased that
    >>> address might be off, but may come on again before the lease
    >>> expires. If it just pinged and gave out the address, then when the
    >>> PC came on line there would be an IP address conflict.

    >>
    >>
    >> Why is that? If PC1 was hosting at x.x.x.1 and PC2 was on and got
    >> assigned x.x.x.2 and PC3 was x.x.x.3 and then pc2 and pc3 were
    >> turned off and pc 3 was turned on pc1 would ping x.x.x.2 to find it
    >> doesn't exist and allocate x.x.x.2 to pc3. When pc2 gets turned on
    >> pc1 would ping x.x.x.2 to get a reply so ping x.x.x.3 to get no
    >> reply so pc2 would become x.x.x.3.
    >>
    >> Seems logical.
    >> The only thing holding up this theroy is leases. But if there were
    >> no leases it would work fine.
    >>

    > Well, yes, but the reason for leases is to cut down on all this
    > pinging! Actually you've missed a step or three. When the machine
    > starts up it either has a leased address or it doesn't. If it doesn't
    > have a leased address, it doesn't know *anything* about the network,
    > ie where the DHCP server is. So it broadcasts "Anyone give me an
    > address"? The DHCP servers on the network respond "How about this
    > one?" The client then broadcasts "OK, I'll take the one from server
    > X". Server X says "Gotcha" and registers the lease. All other DHCP
    > servers give up. The client receives the ACK from server X and starts
    > using the DHCP info. If the lease is for a reasonable length of time
    > (eg 2 days) the the client doesn't need to check for an address when
    > it comes up, as it already has the lease information. Actually it will
    > renew after half the lease time, generally about a day.
    >
    > And the IP addresses therefore tend to "stick" over a much longer
    > period.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff


    I think I am thinking too small.
     
    cowboyz, Jan 5, 2004
    #18
  19. cowboyz

    Enkidu Guest

    On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:55:43 +1300, "cowboyz" <> wrote:
    >>>

    >> Well, yes, but the reason for leases is to cut down on all this
    >> pinging! Actually you've missed a step or three. When the machine
    >> starts up it either has a leased address or it doesn't. If it doesn't
    >> have a leased address, it doesn't know *anything* about the network,
    >> ie where the DHCP server is. So it broadcasts "Anyone give me an
    >> address"? The DHCP servers on the network respond "How about this
    >> one?" The client then broadcasts "OK, I'll take the one from server
    >> X". Server X says "Gotcha" and registers the lease. All other DHCP
    >> servers give up. The client receives the ACK from server X and starts
    >> using the DHCP info. If the lease is for a reasonable length of time
    >> (eg 2 days) the the client doesn't need to check for an address when
    >> it comes up, as it already has the lease information. Actually it will
    >> renew after half the lease time, generally about a day.
    >>
    >> And the IP addresses therefore tend to "stick" over a much longer
    >> period.

    >
    >I think I am thinking too small.
    >

    DHCP often causes problems in small setups. There are still advantages
    - resetting the DNS servers and default gateway for example, and the
    user doesn't need to know any networking. Just plug and go.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    Christmas comes but once a year, thank the gods. I don't think
    that I could cope with twice.
     
    Enkidu, Jan 5, 2004
    #19
  20. cowboyz

    jerm Guest

    On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:04:24 +1300, Enkidu <> said

    >Well, yes, but the reason for leases is to cut down on all this
    >pinging! Actually you've missed a step or three. When the machine
    >starts up it either has a leased address or it doesn't. If it doesn't
    >have a leased address, it doesn't know *anything* about the network,
    >ie where the DHCP server is. So it broadcasts "Anyone give me an
    >address"? The DHCP servers on the network respond "How about this
    >one?" The client then broadcasts "OK, I'll take the one from server
    >X". Server X says "Gotcha" and registers the lease. All other DHCP
    >servers give up. The client receives the ACK from server X and starts
    >using the DHCP info. If the lease is for a reasonable length of time
    >(eg 2 days) the the client doesn't need to check for an address when
    >it comes up, as it already has the lease information. Actually it will
    >renew after half the lease time, generally about a day.
    >
    >And the IP addresses therefore tend to "stick" over a much longer
    >period.
    >

    I have a laptop which moves between 2 DHCP networks, both assign the same
    address. (xxx.xxx.xxx.153)

    This was explained to me as ARP "binding" the IP address to the MAC address,
    and giving prior address priority in each case. Make sense?
     
    jerm, Jan 5, 2004
    #20
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    Dan Shea
    May 12, 2004
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