Desktop supercomputer in the works

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 9, 2007.

  1. In message <fc03sj$n3e$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:

    > "The machine uses three field-programmable gate array chips from Xilinx
    > Inc. to represent a network of 64 ARM proc­essors that control dozens of
    > threads of simultaneous computation"


    ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 9, 2007
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    A system running 100 times faster than a current PC?

    "The machine uses three field-programmable gate array chips from Xilinx Inc.
    to represent a network of 64 ARM proc­essors that control dozens of threads
    of simultaneous computation"

    "The team is now trying to shrink the prototype, a license-plate-size board
    running at 75 MHz, down to a fingernail-size version running between 1 GHz
    and 2 GHz."

    http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=301449
     
    Mickey Mouse, Sep 9, 2007
    #2
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  3. In message <fc05ei$r2k$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:fc04nr$aa2$...
    >
    >> In message <fc03sj$n3e$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>
    >>> "The machine uses three field-programmable gate array chips from Xilinx
    >>> Inc. to represent a network of 64 ARM proc­essors that control dozens of
    >>> threads of simultaneous computation"

    >>
    >> ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...

    >
    > Who knows? Windows CE is currently in the ARM market...


    But not really designed for supercomputing, is it?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 9, 2007
    #3
  4. In message <fc0685$smb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:fc05jm$aa2$...
    >> In message <fc05ei$r2k$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    >>> message news:fc04nr$aa2$...
    >>>
    >>>> In message <fc03sj$n3e$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> "The machine uses three field-programmable gate array chips from
    >>>>> Xilinx Inc. to represent a network of 64 ARM proc­essors that control
    >>>>> dozens of
    >>>>> threads of simultaneous computation"
    >>>>
    >>>> ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
    >>>
    >>> Who knows? Windows CE is currently in the ARM market...

    >>
    >> But not really designed for supercomputing, is it?

    >
    > But we do know that Microsoft has entered into the HPC market with Windows
    > Compute Cluster Server 2003


    Does that run on ARM?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 9, 2007
    #4
  5. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:fc04nr$aa2$...
    > In message <fc03sj$n3e$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >
    >> "The machine uses three field-programmable gate array chips from Xilinx
    >> Inc. to represent a network of 64 ARM proc­essors that control dozens of
    >> threads of simultaneous computation"

    >
    > ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...


    Who knows? Windows CE is currently in the ARM market...
     
    Mickey Mouse, Sep 9, 2007
    #5
  6. In message <fc06j6$ts0$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:fc06ct$av4$...
    >>
    >>>>>> ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Who knows? Windows CE is currently in the ARM market...
    >>>>
    >>>> But not really designed for supercomputing, is it?
    >>>
    >>> But we do know that Microsoft has entered into the HPC market with
    >>> Windows Compute Cluster Server 2003

    >>
    >> Does that run on ARM?

    >
    > Well, we're talking about a system that is at least 3 years away from
    > being a commercial reality.


    As opposed to this system <http://theinquirer.net/?article=42050>, which you
    can build for yourself, at modest cost, right now. Fits in a suitcase, too.
    And guess what it runs?

    > Can't you put the pieces together?


    Yeah, it took Microsoft 3 years to bring out Compute Cluster Server 2003,
    and I don't think it's been much of a success. So the chances of Microsoft
    porting it to another processor architecture, like ARM? Zero.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 9, 2007
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:fc05jm$aa2$...
    > In message <fc05ei$r2k$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >
    >> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >> news:fc04nr$aa2$...
    >>
    >>> In message <fc03sj$n3e$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> "The machine uses three field-programmable gate array chips from Xilinx
    >>>> Inc. to represent a network of 64 ARM proc­essors that control dozens
    >>>> of
    >>>> threads of simultaneous computation"
    >>>
    >>> ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...

    >>
    >> Who knows? Windows CE is currently in the ARM market...

    >
    > But not really designed for supercomputing, is it?


    But we do know that Microsoft has entered into the HPC market with Windows
    Compute Cluster Server 2003

    http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid80_gci1264432,00.html
     
    Mickey Mouse, Sep 9, 2007
    #7
  8. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Squiggle Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <fc03sj$n3e$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >
    >> "The machine uses three field-programmable gate array chips from Xilinx
    >> Inc. to represent a network of 64 ARM proc­essors that control dozens of
    >> threads of simultaneous computation"

    >
    > ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...


    From what I can tell it doesn't run one at all, cross-compiled binary
    is loaded and run natively without an underlying OS.


    Oh, and for what its worth:
    Frequently Asked Questions:

    Q. Will this new technology help improve Macs as well?

    A. Yes! The technology is "orthogonal" to the operating system (OS), and
    is relevant for Windows, Linux, Mac OSs, or any other OS.


    Would you like a ladder or can you get down of your high horse all by
    yourself?
     
    Squiggle, Sep 9, 2007
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:fc06ct$av4$...
    >
    >>>>> ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
    >>>>
    >>>> Who knows? Windows CE is currently in the ARM market...
    >>>
    >>> But not really designed for supercomputing, is it?

    >>
    >> But we do know that Microsoft has entered into the HPC market with
    >> Windows
    >> Compute Cluster Server 2003

    >
    > Does that run on ARM?


    Well, we're talking about a system that is at least 3 years away from being
    a commercial reality.

    Can't you put the pieces together?
     
    Mickey Mouse, Sep 9, 2007
    #9
  10. In message <46e3a1d1$>, Squiggle wrote:

    > Would you like a ladder or can you get down of your high horse all by
    > yourself?


    Oh look, they even have a collection of articles, specs and code available
    for download here <http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~vishkin/XMT/index.shtml>.

    What's this xcc cross-compiler program, then? Shell scripts? ELF
    executables? Hmm, doesn't look like it'll run under Dimdows...
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 9, 2007
    #10
  11. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Squiggle Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    >ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...



    http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/vishkin/XMT/manual4xmtc1out-of2.pdf

    8.3 Execution on the FPGA: xmtfpga
    To execute a binary XMTC file on the FPGA, the xmtfpga program is used.
    This program submits a job to the task queue of the FPGA. The FPGA does
    not support executing multiple programs concurrently,
    since it does not have an operating system. xmtfpga acts
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    as the driver to the FPGA that schedules tasks.



    Thank you, and goodnight!
     
    Squiggle, Sep 9, 2007
    #11
  12. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    thingy Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <fc06j6$ts0$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >
    >> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >> news:fc06ct$av4$...
    >>>>>>> ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
    >>>>>> Who knows? Windows CE is currently in the ARM market...
    >>>>> But not really designed for supercomputing, is it?
    >>>> But we do know that Microsoft has entered into the HPC market with
    >>>> Windows Compute Cluster Server 2003
    >>> Does that run on ARM?

    >> Well, we're talking about a system that is at least 3 years away from
    >> being a commercial reality.

    >
    > As opposed to this system <http://theinquirer.net/?article=42050>, which you
    > can build for yourself, at modest cost, right now. Fits in a suitcase, too.
    > And guess what it runs?
    >
    >> Can't you put the pieces together?


    Windows used to run on Alpha, but guess what they abandoned it...pieces
    do not make a whole....

    This is one of the true advantages with Linux, if you want to run it on
    some obscure chip, you can no waiting for a vendor's vapourware to blow
    away at the first gust....

    > Yeah, it took Microsoft 3 years to bring out Compute Cluster Server 2003,
    > and I don't think it's been much of a success. So the chances of Microsoft
    > porting it to another processor architecture, like ARM? Zero.


    Its few "successes" from what I have heard are MS practically giving it
    away....but then they did/do the same with IIS v Apache....

    I am not sure if they see CCS as a direct money earner but more of a PR
    / marketing come back against the beowulf clusters they used to have no
    answer too....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Sep 10, 2007
    #12
  13. In message <46e3aec2$>, Squiggle wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    > >ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...

    >
    > http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/vishkin/XMT/manual4xmtc1out-of2.pdf
    >
    > 8.3 Execution on the FPGA: xmtfpga
    > To execute a binary XMTC file on the FPGA, the xmtfpga program is used.


    Which OS does that run under, I wonder?

    > Thank you, and goodnight!


    You were saying?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 10, 2007
    #13
  14. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Squiggle Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <46e3aec2$>, Squiggle wrote:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >> >ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...

    >>
    >> http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/vishkin/XMT/manual4xmtc1out-of2.pdf
    >>
    >> 8.3 Execution on the FPGA: xmtfpga
    >> To execute a binary XMTC file on the FPGA, the xmtfpga program is used.

    >
    > Which OS does that run under, I wonder?
    >


    Nice attempt to sidestep the fact that you were trying to imply that the
    desktop supercomputer was running a non-MS OS, but i'm not buying.
     
    Squiggle, Sep 10, 2007
    #14
  15. In message <>, Squiggle wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message <46e3aec2$>, Squiggle wrote:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>> >ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
    >>>
    >>> http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/vishkin/XMT/manual4xmtc1out-of2.pdf
    >>>
    >>> 8.3 Execution on the FPGA: xmtfpga
    >>> To execute a binary XMTC file on the FPGA, the xmtfpga program is used.

    >>
    >> Which OS does that run under, I wonder?

    >
    > Nice attempt to sidestep the fact that you were trying to imply that the
    > desktop supercomputer was running a non-MS OS, but i'm not buying.


    Actually, it's quite clear it's not a true supercomputer, merely an
    array-processor device that you would attach to a computer. And it's
    equally clear that the development tools for driving this array processor
    don't run on Dimdows.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 11, 2007
    #15
  16. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Squiggle Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <>, Squiggle wrote:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <46e3aec2$>, Squiggle wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> >ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/vishkin/XMT/manual4xmtc1out-of2.pdf
    >>>>
    >>>> 8.3 Execution on the FPGA: xmtfpga
    >>>> To execute a binary XMTC file on the FPGA, the xmtfpga program is used.
    >>> Which OS does that run under, I wonder?

    >> Nice attempt to sidestep the fact that you were trying to imply that the
    >> desktop supercomputer was running a non-MS OS, but i'm not buying.

    >
    > Actually, it's quite clear it's not a true supercomputer, merely an
    > array-processor device that you would attach to a computer.


    That isn't what Prof. Vishkin is working towards.
    http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/vishkin/XMT/manycore-panel6-07.pdf
    "Envisioned general-purpose chip parallel computer succeeding serial by
    2010 in 1997: Speed-of-light collides with 20+GHz serial processor."

    and is that not where desktop PCs are already headed with dual and quad
    core CPUs?

    > And it's
    > equally clear that the development tools for driving this array processor
    > don't run on Dimdows.


    Nothing a minor porting job won't fix. xmtgcc is a customised version of
    gcc, and there are already gcc ports for windows (Gcw, MinGw and cygwin
    etc.) so I cant see why xmtgcc couldn't be ported to windows also. I
    assume that that other gnu tools would be similarly portable.
     
    Squiggle, Sep 11, 2007
    #16
  17. In message <46e5e7b2$>, Squiggle wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> In message <>, Squiggle wrote:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <46e3aec2$>, Squiggle wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> >ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/vishkin/XMT/manual4xmtc1out-of2.pdf
    >>>>>
    >>>>> 8.3 Execution on the FPGA: xmtfpga
    >>>>> To execute a binary XMTC file on the FPGA, the xmtfpga program is
    >>>>> used.
    >>>> Which OS does that run under, I wonder?
    >>> Nice attempt to sidestep the fact that you were trying to imply that the
    >>> desktop supercomputer was running a non-MS OS, but i'm not buying.

    >>
    >> Actually, it's quite clear it's not a true supercomputer, merely an
    >> array-processor device that you would attach to a computer.

    >
    > That isn't what Prof. Vishkin is working towards...


    I.e. that's certainly where it's at right now. Anything else is vapourware.

    > ...and is that not where desktop PCs are already headed with dual and quad
    > core CPUs?


    You're a bit behind the times, as I pointed out earlier
    <http://theinquirer.net/?article=42050>.

    >> And it's
    >> equally clear that the development tools for driving this array processor
    >> don't run on Dimdows.

    >
    > Nothing a minor porting job won't fix. xmtgcc is a customised version of
    > gcc, and there are already gcc ports for windows (Gcw, MinGw and cygwin
    > etc.) ...


    Which are not quite the same as GCC itself, for some reason. So obviously
    it's a bit more than just a "minor" porting job. Which is probably why
    nobody seems to be working on it.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 11, 2007
    #17
  18. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Squiggle Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <46e5e7b2$>, Squiggle wrote:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>> In message <>, Squiggle wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> In message <46e3aec2$>, Squiggle wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> >ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/vishkin/XMT/manual4xmtc1out-of2.pdf
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> 8.3 Execution on the FPGA: xmtfpga
    >>>>>> To execute a binary XMTC file on the FPGA, the xmtfpga program is
    >>>>>> used.
    >>>>> Which OS does that run under, I wonder?
    >>>> Nice attempt to sidestep the fact that you were trying to imply that the
    >>>> desktop supercomputer was running a non-MS OS, but i'm not buying.
    >>> Actually, it's quite clear it's not a true supercomputer, merely an
    >>> array-processor device that you would attach to a computer.

    >> That isn't what Prof. Vishkin is working towards...

    >
    > I.e. that's certainly where it's at right now. Anything else is vapourware.


    While it does not met the definition of supercomputer due to the lower
    spec processors and low clock speeds it is using I don't think your
    "array-processor device that you would attach to a computer" description
    is accurate. It is a proof of concept prototype of a CPU, not of a
    co-processor or other sub-processing system.

    >
    >> ...and is that not where desktop PCs are already headed with dual and quad
    >> core CPUs?

    >
    > You're a bit behind the times, as I pointed out earlier
    > <http://theinquirer.net/?article=42050>.


    Thats a little different dont you think? a major difference between 4
    PCs (with all the intercomputer communications overhead) in a cluster
    and 64 cores on a chip( board at this stage) with a design that
    minimizes the inter core communications overhead.

    Does 26 Gflops qualify for supercomputer status these days? The lowest
    ranked supercomputer on the top 500 list is over 200 times faster.
     
    Squiggle, Sep 11, 2007
    #18
  19. In message <46e5ff6f$>, Squiggle wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> In message <46e5e7b2$>, Squiggle wrote:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>> In message <>, Squiggle wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> In message <46e3aec2$>, Squiggle wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> >ARM processors? Wonder what operating system they might run...
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/vishkin/XMT/manual4xmtc1out-of2.pdf
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> 8.3 Execution on the FPGA: xmtfpga
    >>>>>>> To execute a binary XMTC file on the FPGA, the xmtfpga program is
    >>>>>>> used.
    >>>>>> Which OS does that run under, I wonder?
    >>>>> Nice attempt to sidestep the fact that you were trying to imply that
    >>>>> the
    >>>>> desktop supercomputer was running a non-MS OS, but i'm not buying.
    >>>> Actually, it's quite clear it's not a true supercomputer, merely an
    >>>> array-processor device that you would attach to a computer.
    >>> That isn't what Prof. Vishkin is working towards...

    >>
    >> I.e. that's certainly where it's at right now. Anything else is
    >> vapourware.

    >
    >>> ...and is that not where desktop PCs are already headed with dual and
    >>> quad core CPUs?


    >>You're a bit behind the times, as I pointed out earlier
    >><http://theinquirer.net/?article=42050>.


    > While it does not met the definition of supercomputer...


    It's still way ahead of where you thought "desktop PCs are already headed".
    Which is why you're behind the times.

    > ... I don't think your
    > "array-processor device that you would attach to a computer" description
    > is accurate. It is a proof of concept prototype of a CPU, not of a
    > co-processor or other sub-processing system.


    But the only way to use it right now is as a co-processor. And not from a
    Dimdows system, either.

    > Does 26 Gflops qualify for supercomputer status these days? The lowest
    > ranked supercomputer on the top 500 list is over 200 times faster.


    While you're looking at the Top 500 list, can you find any customer
    installations running Dimdows Compute Cluster Edition? There aren't any.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 12, 2007
    #19
  20. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Squiggle Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > But the only way to use it right now is as a co-processor.


    No, it is a cpu, not a co-processor.
    It executes its own code,manages its own memory, has a complete
    instruction set, not a limited functionality special purpose instruction
    set. It runs its own jobs from start to finish.
    What CPU features does it lack exactly?


    >
    >> Does 26 Gflops qualify for supercomputer status these days? The lowest
    >> ranked supercomputer on the top 500 list is over 200 times faster.

    >
    > While you're looking at the Top 500 list, can you find any customer
    > installations running Dimdows Compute Cluster Edition? There aren't any.


    Huh? who said anything about windows?
     
    Squiggle, Sep 13, 2007
    #20
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