Deleting pictures on an SD card

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Kiran, Feb 9, 2007.

  1. Kiran

    Just D Guest

    "Jon"
    > In fact, I think floppy formatting on a Mac at least was always a fulll
    > format.


    It was same with MS DOS up to 3.31, then it was changed later, don't
    remember in 4.00/4.01 or even later when we got new keys /U /Q to do it
    quickly or completely. Having GUI in Windows we can select it in the DD
    list.

    Just D.
     
    Just D, Feb 9, 2007
    #21
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  2. Kiran

    J. Clarke Guest

    On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:24:55 -0700, "Just D" <> wrote:

    >> Interesting to note the OP said nothing about secure deletion.

    >
    >
    >Well, not me started this sub-thread first :) For a complete deletion of my
    >cards I'd use a format in my camera, it's tested and works great. It takes
    >~1 sec or even less for a complete format of 8 GB SDHC card. But actually
    >when I copy the data from the card to my computer I actually MOVE files to
    >delete them from the card, that's easier, don't need to sync next time or
    >guess what's already done.
    >
    >For a real secure reformatting it would take hours with this relatively card
    >if I need to do that according to the standard which assumes a several times
    >rewriting over and over some randomly generated data. There are some apps
    >doing that. But in most cases it's worthless since the card has just a
    >personal set of images (music files) and the card will be used by the same
    >photographer (user) again and again.


    If it really has to be secure I'd format it with a belt sander. Card
    won't be good for much afterward but it will be securely erased.

    >Also it should be noticed that some SDHC 4 GB cards are probably still
    >having FAT16 which is supported by the older devices even if they can't work
    >with real SDHC formatted with FAT32. Reformatting will create a new FAT32
    >structure especially if it's done with the computer (where it's optional and
    >can be selected by the user, at list it works with al other media types) and
    >the owner will simply lose his card for these older devices if he can't
    >reformat it back with FAT16. I saw several complaints on the Internet when
    >the user lost their cards after reformatting. That's why I asked here before
    >if anybody has any trouble formatting SDHC cards, particularly 4 and 8 GB
    >SDHC with D80.
    >
    >Just D.
    >
     
    J. Clarke, Feb 9, 2007
    #22
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  3. J. Clarke wrote:
    > On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:24:55 -0700, "Just D" <> wrote:
    >
    >>> Interesting to note the OP said nothing about secure deletion.

    >>
    >> Well, not me started this sub-thread first :) For a complete deletion of my
    >> cards I'd use a format in my camera, it's tested and works great. It takes
    >> ~1 sec or even less for a complete format of 8 GB SDHC card. But actually
    >> when I copy the data from the card to my computer I actually MOVE files to
    >> delete them from the card, that's easier, don't need to sync next time or
    >> guess what's already done.
    >>
    >> For a real secure reformatting it would take hours with this relatively card
    >> if I need to do that according to the standard which assumes a several times
    >> rewriting over and over some randomly generated data. There are some apps
    >> doing that. But in most cases it's worthless since the card has just a
    >> personal set of images (music files) and the card will be used by the same
    >> photographer (user) again and again.

    >
    > If it really has to be secure I'd format it with a belt sander. Card
    > won't be good for much afterward but it will be securely erased.


    Blow torches can similarly be effectively employed...


    --
    john mcwilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Feb 9, 2007
    #23
  4. Kiran

    Colin_D Guest

    Jon wrote:
    > Ed Ruf <"Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:24:31 +0930, in rec.photo.digital jmc
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Which brings me to my second point. You'd think that a full format
    >>> would delete the images, but at least on my three Nikon cameras, it does
    >>> not - image recovery software easily gets the pictures back.

    >> No you would not think that.

    >
    > Just to be very clear: This is equally true on a normal hard drive
    > unless you do a low level format or you zero and/or overwrite all the
    > data (preferably multiple times if you really, REALLY want to be sure.)


    That is so with magnetic storage media. With flash memory a single
    overwrite is all that is needed to totally erase any data.

    Colin D.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    Colin_D, Feb 9, 2007
    #24
  5. Kiran

    Colin_D Guest

    John McWilliams wrote:
    > Just D wrote:
    >> It's much easier to use some special tool rewriting the location
    >> occupied by these files with some random data. Even ancient Norton
    >> Tools were able to do that. Or you or anybody of your friend
    >> programmer can write this tool in coupe minutes using any computer
    >> language :) The algorithm is pretty simple - delete all original
    >> files, create one or many files depending on the maximum file size
    >> available for this file system, fill this file or files with some
    >> random info, finally delete this temporary file. Even if this file is
    >> restored it's worthless.

    >
    > Interesting to note the OP said nothing about secure deletion.
    >
    > And please put your reply at the bottom, quoting judiciously.
    >

    The Op said he wanted to delete files on his CF card. No reason given;
    most responders have given him the option and the means to either simply
    reformat, or to securely erase the card. What's wrong with that?

    Colin D.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    Colin_D, Feb 9, 2007
    #25
  6. Kiran

    Colin_D Guest

    Just D wrote:
    >> Interesting to note the OP said nothing about secure deletion.

    >
    >
    > Well, not me started this sub-thread first :) For a complete deletion of my
    > cards I'd use a format in my camera, it's tested and works great. It takes
    > ~1 sec or even less for a complete format of 8 GB SDHC card. But actually
    > when I copy the data from the card to my computer I actually MOVE files to
    > delete them from the card, that's easier, don't need to sync next time or
    > guess what's already done.
    >
    > For a real secure reformatting it would take hours with this relatively card
    > if I need to do that according to the standard which assumes a several times
    > rewriting over and over some randomly generated data. There are some apps
    > doing that. But in most cases it's worthless since the card has just a
    > personal set of images (music files) and the card will be used by the same
    > photographer (user) again and again.
    >
    > Also it should be noticed that some SDHC 4 GB cards are probably still
    > having FAT16 which is supported by the older devices even if they can't work
    > with real SDHC formatted with FAT32. Reformatting will create a new FAT32
    > structure especially if it's done with the computer (where it's optional and
    > can be selected by the user, at list it works with al other media types) and
    > the owner will simply lose his card for these older devices if he can't
    > reformat it back with FAT16. I saw several complaints on the Internet when
    > the user lost their cards after reformatting. That's why I asked here before
    > if anybody has any trouble formatting SDHC cards, particularly 4 and 8 GB
    > SDHC with D80.
    >
    > Just D.


    FAT16 is limited by its design to a maximum of 2 gigabytes. You cannot
    format 4 and 8 gigabyte cards with FAT16, and any camera that can use
    those cards will use FAT32.

    Colin D.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    Colin_D, Feb 9, 2007
    #26
  7. Kiran

    Colin_D Guest

    ray wrote:
    > On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:53:27 +0000, Kiran wrote:
    >
    >> I wish to delete the pictures on my digital camera's SD card, which is
    >> almost full. Is it best to do it withe camera controls or computer
    >> controls? Thank you.

    >
    > Your chances of success are maximized by doing a 'format' in the camera.
    >

    No, a format in-camera does *not* remove the images from the card. It
    simply rewrites the File Allocation Table (FAT) which records which
    sectors contain which image - a sort of index. Replacing the FAT
    destroys the index, but *does not* destroy the data. Since the new
    table is blank, it will assign sectors to an image as if the card was
    empty, but in fact it is overwriting old images.

    Colin D.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    Colin_D, Feb 9, 2007
    #27
  8. Kiran

    Just D Guest

    "Colin_D"
    > FAT16 is limited by its design to a maximum of 2 gigabytes. You cannot
    > format 4 and 8 gigabyte cards with FAT16, and any camera that can use
    > those cards will use FAT32.


    First, I didn't write about 8GB cards, only about 4 GB cards.

    Second:
    http://support.microsoft.com/kb/118335

    but this as well:

    http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310561

    MORE INFORMATION
    Windows XP supports the creation of primary partitions and logical drives of
    up to 4 gigabytes (GB) using the FAT16 file system. The maximum cluster size
    is 64K.

    The 4-GB partition limit is imposed by the maximum number of clusters and
    the largest cluster size supported by the FAT file system. In Windows XP,
    FAT16 is limited to 64K clusters. Multiply the maximum number of clusters
    (64k) by the maximum cluster size (64K), and the result is 4GB. In addition
    to Windows XP, Microsoft Windows 2000 and Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 also
    support FAT16 volumes up to 4GB in size.

    FAT16 volumes larger than 2GB are not accessible from computers running
    Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me), Windows 98, Windows 95, or
    MS-DOS. The size limit for FAT16 volumes in these operating systems is 2 GB.
    In other words, to maintain compatibility with Windows Me, Windows 98,
    Windows 95, or MS-DOS, a volume cannot be larger than 2 GB. For additional
    information about FAT16 drive and partition size limits in Windows Me,
    Windows 98, Windows 95, and MS-DOS, click the article numbers below to view
    the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
    118335 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/118335/) Maximum partition size
    using FAT16 file system
     
    Just D, Feb 9, 2007
    #28
  9. Kiran

    Colin_D Guest

    Re: Deleting pictures on an SD card - COMMON MISUNDERSTANDING

    Reading through this thread shows that a common misunderstanding is that
    formatting a card will erase the images.

    This is not so.

    All storage devices, whether a card, a hard or floppy drive, including
    CDs and DVDs, use a look-up table to record where each file is located
    on the medium. The most common is the File Allocation Table, or FAT,
    with variations such as FAT16, FAT 32, and various more advanced systems
    such as NTFS (New Technology File System), and the equivalent Apple systems.

    The lookup table is the key to locating any file on the device; if that
    is corrupted, destroyed, or replaced with a virgin lookup table, the
    files are no longer accessible *but they are still there on the device*.
    Reusing the card will write files to the card using the new FAT,
    which 'thinks' the card is empty since there are no files listed in the
    table, and it proceeds to overwrite old file with new ones. Until a
    file is overwritten, the old file remains.

    This is why file recovery programs can magically recover files from an
    apparently deleted card or other media, by systematically reading the
    whole medium looking for file headers.

    The claim that formatting a card in camera will erase the card is simply
    wrong. It only rewrites the FAT, nothing more. If you think about it,
    the format procedure in a camera takes only a few seconds. It cannot
    possibly write to the entire card in that short time.

    The OP said he wanted to delete the images on his card. He didn't say
    why. Normally, formatting a card is all that is needed, but if the card
    contains sensitive images he might really want to erase the card to
    prevent recovery. In such a case, formatting will not do the job.

    Colin D.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    Colin_D, Feb 9, 2007
    #29
  10. Colin_D wrote:
    > John McWilliams wrote:
    >> Just D wrote:
    >>> It's much easier to use some special tool rewriting the location
    >>> occupied by these files with some random data. Even ancient Norton
    >>> Tools were able to do that. Or you or anybody of your friend
    >>> programmer can write this tool in coupe minutes using any computer
    >>> language :) The algorithm is pretty simple - delete all original
    >>> files, create one or many files depending on the maximum file size
    >>> available for this file system, fill this file or files with some
    >>> random info, finally delete this temporary file. Even if this file is
    >>> restored it's worthless.

    >>
    >> Interesting to note the OP said nothing about secure deletion.
    >>
    >> And please put your reply at the bottom, quoting judiciously.
    >>

    > The Op said he wanted to delete files on his CF card. No reason given;
    > most responders have given him the option and the means to either simply
    > reformat, or to securely erase the card. What's wrong with that?


    Nothing. It's interesting to me, and possibly others, that the thread
    goes on and on about things the OP didn't ask about. Not that that's
    terribly unusual, but it struck me.

    --
    john mcwilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Feb 9, 2007
    #30
  11. Kiran

    ray Guest

    On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:16:15 +1300, Colin_D wrote:

    > ray wrote:
    >> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:53:27 +0000, Kiran wrote:
    >>
    >>> I wish to delete the pictures on my digital camera's SD card, which is
    >>> almost full. Is it best to do it withe camera controls or computer
    >>> controls? Thank you.

    >>
    >> Your chances of success are maximized by doing a 'format' in the camera.
    >>

    > No, a format in-camera does *not* remove the images from the card. It
    > simply rewrites the File Allocation Table (FAT) which records which
    > sectors contain which image - a sort of index. Replacing the FAT
    > destroys the index, but *does not* destroy the data. Since the new
    > table is blank, it will assign sectors to an image as if the card was
    > empty, but in fact it is overwriting old images.
    >
    > Colin D.


    Exactly. I clears out the FAT and starts fresh - just as though it were
    freshly formatted, though leaving data there. I believe this might be what
    MS refers to as a 'quick format'. All the cases of mangled pictures I've
    heard of have resulted from deleting pictures then taking more, then
    deleting, etc. If you do a fresh 'format' in the camera it tidies things
    up so that won't happen.
     
    ray, Feb 9, 2007
    #31
  12. Kiran

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Kiran wrote:
    > I wish to delete the pictures on my digital camera's SD card, which is
    > almost full. Is it best to do it withe camera controls or computer
    > controls? Thank you.

    If you wish to delete all the pictures, I suggest you make use of the
    camera's 'format' feature. This does the job quickly, and cleanly.
    Doing the deletion on a computer seems to give some users of some
    cameras a bad time. I often delete from the computer, with no problems
    on my Kodak cameras. Formatting on the computer is more likely to cause
    problems than just deleting files.
     
    Ron Hunter, Feb 10, 2007
    #32
  13. Kiran

    Colin_D Guest

    Just D wrote:
    > "Colin_D"
    >> FAT16 is limited by its design to a maximum of 2 gigabytes. You cannot
    >> format 4 and 8 gigabyte cards with FAT16, and any camera that can use
    >> those cards will use FAT32.

    >
    > First, I didn't write about 8GB cards, only about 4 GB cards.


    Quote from your earlier post:
    "That's why I asked here before
    if anybody has any trouble formatting SDHC cards, particularly 4 and 8 GB
    SDHC with D80."
    where you mention 8GB cards.

    >
    > Second:
    > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/118335
    >
    > but this as well:
    >
    > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310561
    >
    > MORE INFORMATION
    > Windows XP supports the creation of primary partitions and logical drives of
    > up to 4 gigabytes (GB) using the FAT16 file system. The maximum cluster size
    > is 64K.
    >
    > The 4-GB partition limit is imposed by the maximum number of clusters and
    > the largest cluster size supported by the FAT file system. In Windows XP,
    > FAT16 is limited to 64K clusters. Multiply the maximum number of clusters
    > (64k) by the maximum cluster size (64K), and the result is 4GB. In addition
    > to Windows XP, Microsoft Windows 2000 and Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 also
    > support FAT16 volumes up to 4GB in size.


    Prior versions of Windows supports only 2 GB, so to be safe one should,
    for the sake of compatibility only format to 2GB. There's no guarantee
    that because Win NT and later supports 4GB that cameras will do the same.
    >
    > FAT16 volumes larger than 2GB are not accessible from computers running
    > Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me), Windows 98, Windows 95, or
    > MS-DOS. The size limit for FAT16 volumes in these operating systems is 2 GB.
    > In other words, to maintain compatibility with Windows Me, Windows 98,
    > Windows 95, or MS-DOS, a volume cannot be larger than 2 GB. For additional
    > information about FAT16 drive and partition size limits in Windows Me,
    > Windows 98, Windows 95, and MS-DOS, click the article numbers below to view
    > the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
    > 118335 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/118335/) Maximum partition size
    > using FAT16 file system
    >
    >


    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    Colin_D, Feb 10, 2007
    #33
  14. Kiran

    Colin_D Guest

    Ron Hunter wrote:
    > Kiran wrote:
    >> I wish to delete the pictures on my digital camera's SD card, which is
    >> almost full. Is it best to do it withe camera controls or computer
    >> controls? Thank you.

    > If you wish to delete all the pictures, I suggest you make use of the
    > camera's 'format' feature. This does the job quickly, and cleanly.
    > Doing the deletion on a computer seems to give some users of some
    > cameras a bad time. I often delete from the computer, with no problems
    > on my Kodak cameras. Formatting on the computer is more likely to cause
    > problems than just deleting files.


    Ron, read my post immediately before yours.

    Formatting in camera does NOT erase or delete the images; it only
    rewrites the FAT table. The images remain. Computer formatting, as you
    say, is somewhat unreliable, but if one does a standard FAT16 or FAT32
    full format it should be ok.

    Colin D.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    Colin_D, Feb 10, 2007
    #34
  15. Kiran

    J. Clarke Guest

    On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:57:29 +1300, Colin_D <nospam@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    >Ron Hunter wrote:
    >> Kiran wrote:
    >>> I wish to delete the pictures on my digital camera's SD card, which is
    >>> almost full. Is it best to do it withe camera controls or computer
    >>> controls? Thank you.

    >> If you wish to delete all the pictures, I suggest you make use of the
    >> camera's 'format' feature. This does the job quickly, and cleanly.
    >> Doing the deletion on a computer seems to give some users of some
    >> cameras a bad time. I often delete from the computer, with no problems
    >> on my Kodak cameras. Formatting on the computer is more likely to cause
    >> problems than just deleting files.

    >
    >Ron, read my post immediately before yours.
    >
    >Formatting in camera does NOT erase or delete the images; it only
    >rewrites the FAT table. The images remain. Computer formatting, as you
    >say, is somewhat unreliable, but if one does a standard FAT16 or FAT32
    >full format it should be ok.


    From context it appears that what he wants to do is free space on the
    card to store a new set of images, not perform a secure wipe. For
    that purpose formatting works fine.

    Note that the "delete" command in most operating systems does not
    delete files by your definition.

    While it's worthwhile mentioning the security aspects on the odd
    chance that the OP really does want a secure wipe and not simply file
    deletion of the kind performed by, say, Windows, harping on it is a
    bit excessive.
     
    J. Clarke, Feb 10, 2007
    #35
  16. Kiran

    Just D Guest

    "Colin_D"
    > Quote from your earlier post:
    > "That's why I asked here before
    > if anybody has any trouble formatting SDHC cards, particularly 4 and 8 GB
    > SDHC with D80."
    > where you mention 8GB cards.


    True, but when I wrote about reformatting and deletion I wrote about 4 GB
    cards and possible troubles. Let's read a little bit higher from the same
    message:

    "Also it should be noticed that some SDHC 4 GB cards are probably still
    having FAT16 which is supported by the older devices even if they can't work
    with real SDHC formatted with FAT32. Reformatting will create a new FAT32
    structure especially if it's done with the computer (where it's optional and
    can be selected by the user, at list it works with al other media types) and
    the owner will simply lose his card for these older devices if he can't
    reformat it back with FAT16. I saw several complaints on the Internet when
    the user lost their cards after reformatting."

    I asked about 8 GB card just in case if it has some or any issued to be
    formatted in the camera, not because of the file system, but if I was
    understood this way, then it's probably I should separate two different
    issues. You wrote that: "FAT16 is limited by its design to a maximum of 2
    gigabytes. You cannot format 4 and 8 gigabyte cards with FAT16, and any
    camera that can use those cards will use FAT32." Well, both wrote good. :)

    > Prior versions of Windows supports only 2 GB, so to be safe one should,
    > for the sake of compatibility only format to 2GB. There's no guarantee
    > that because Win NT and later supports 4GB that cameras will do the same.


    I know only two really poor people still using Windows 98 because their
    hardware can't work with higher versions. So these old versions of the OS
    should more likely exclude digital cameras because that's another user
    level, non-discussible. Almost all people around are using at least XP which
    is able to format you your 4 GB with FAT16. More advanced (or less
    informed?) people are already using the last trap from Microsoft crying that
    this OS is not able to show HD video on their advanced monitors and doubled
    video cards total over $2000, etc., etc. Not for me, I read about the system
    before I step on the racks. It would be sad for the person who spent over 25
    years with computers as a professional to be trapped by MS again and again
    :)

    Just D.
     
    Just D, Feb 10, 2007
    #36
  17. Colin_D <nospam@127.0.0.1> writes:

    >
    > Ron, read my post immediately before yours.
    >
    > Formatting in camera does NOT erase or delete the images; it only
    > rewrites the FAT table. The images remain. Computer formatting, as
    > you say, is somewhat unreliable, but if one does a standard FAT16 or
    > FAT32 full format it should be ok.


    Did you read any of the posts other than yours?

    Nobody gives a %%%% whether it removes the data from the card.
    Nobody here is working for the CIA. Nobody here has been taking
    pictures of themselves in bed with their wife's sister. They just
    want to be able to take more pictures.

    --
    Bill Mitchell
    Dept of Mathematics, The University of Florida
    PO Box 118105, Gainesville, FL 32611--8105
    (352) 392-0281 x284
     
    William Mitchell, Feb 10, 2007
    #37
  18. Kiran

    Phil Wheeler Guest

    William Mitchell wrote:
    > Colin_D <nospam@127.0.0.1> writes:
    >
    >> Ron, read my post immediately before yours.
    >>
    >> Formatting in camera does NOT erase or delete the images; it only
    >> rewrites the FAT table. The images remain. Computer formatting, as
    >> you say, is somewhat unreliable, but if one does a standard FAT16 or
    >> FAT32 full format it should be ok.

    >
    >Nobody here has been taking
    > pictures of themselves in bed with their wife's sister.


    Well--Are you certain about that? <grin>

    Phil
     
    Phil Wheeler, Feb 10, 2007
    #38
  19. Kiran

    Phil Wheeler Guest

    Colin_D wrote:
    > Ron Hunter wrote:
    >> Kiran wrote:
    >>> I wish to delete the pictures on my digital camera's SD card, which is
    >>> almost full. Is it best to do it withe camera controls or computer
    >>> controls? Thank you.

    >> If you wish to delete all the pictures, I suggest you make use of the
    >> camera's 'format' feature. This does the job quickly, and cleanly.
    >> Doing the deletion on a computer seems to give some users of some
    >> cameras a bad time. I often delete from the computer, with no
    >> problems on my Kodak cameras. Formatting on the computer is more
    >> likely to cause problems than just deleting files.

    >
    > Ron, read my post immediately before yours.
    >
    > Formatting in camera does NOT erase or delete the images; it only
    > rewrites the FAT table.


    For most of us, it matters not. If you're a spy, well . . .

    BTW .. what's your name again??

    Phil
     
    Phil Wheeler, Feb 10, 2007
    #39
  20. Kiran

    Jon Guest

    John McWilliams <> wrote:

    > It's interesting to me, and possibly others, that the thread
    > goes on and on about things the OP didn't ask about. Not that that's
    > terribly unusual, but it struck me.


    Terribly _normal_, in my experience! ;-)
    --
    /Jon
    For contact info, run the following in Terminal:
    Mail: echo 36199371860304980107073482417748002696458P|dc
    Skype: echo 139576319600233690471689738P|dc
     
    Jon, Feb 10, 2007
    #40
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