Decisions, Decisions....

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Max Burke, Sep 15, 2006.

  1. Max Burke

    Max Burke Guest

    Opinions please.....

    Should I buy an iPod 60/80Gb now or wait for Microsoft to release their Zune
    PMP?

    Positives for the iPod..
    It's available now, it has a large (consumer) support base, and a few 'third
    parties' are making it do things 'laterally' (creating uses for it other
    than as a PMP)

    Negatives.
    It's locked in to one hardware/software model, it has tiny screen, (Watch
    movies on that screen? Get real Apple!) there is no online services
    provided by Apple to NZ users, and it has a premium pricing 'model' because
    it is Apple...

    Positives for the ZUNE (limited to what little info I can find about it)
    It has a larger screen that the iPod, It [apparently] is going to have a lot
    more features than the iPod (like WiFi, easy hardware/software upgrades from
    MS and third parties, even the possibility to use it as a mobile phone in
    the future) and Microsoft appear to be bringing a lot of third party
    hardware and software developers on board as part of the ZUNE model...

    Negatives....
    At the moment most information about the ZUNE is 'informed guesswork,'
    speculation, or wish list fulfilment, it's [claimed] storage capacity is
    half that of the iPod (c'mon Microsoft, you can do better than 30Gb), no
    known info about the price, what OS it will use, what (if any) MS online
    services will be available [in NZ], etc, etc.
    http://www.zuneinfo.com/
    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Sep 15, 2006
    #1
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  2. Max Burke

    Jack Hammond Guest

    On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:33:20 +1200, "Max Burke" <> wrote:

    >
    >Opinions please.....
    >
    >Should I buy an iPod 60/80Gb now or wait for Microsoft to release their Zune
    >PMP?
    >
    >Positives for the iPod..
    >It's available now, it has a large (consumer) support base, and a few 'third
    >parties' are making it do things 'laterally' (creating uses for it other
    >than as a PMP)
    >
    >Negatives.
    >It's locked in to one hardware/software model, it has tiny screen, (Watch
    >movies on that screen? Get real Apple!) there is no online services
    >provided by Apple to NZ users, and it has a premium pricing 'model' because
    >it is Apple...
    >
    >Positives for the ZUNE (limited to what little info I can find about it)
    >It has a larger screen that the iPod, It [apparently] is going to have a lot
    >more features than the iPod (like WiFi, easy hardware/software upgrades from
    >MS and third parties, even the possibility to use it as a mobile phone in
    >the future) and Microsoft appear to be bringing a lot of third party
    >hardware and software developers on board as part of the ZUNE model...
    >
    >Negatives....
    >At the moment most information about the ZUNE is 'informed guesswork,'
    >speculation, or wish list fulfilment, it's [claimed] storage capacity is
    >half that of the iPod (c'mon Microsoft, you can do better than 30Gb), no
    >known info about the price, what OS it will use, what (if any) MS online
    >services will be available [in NZ], etc, etc.
    >http://www.zuneinfo.com/




    A Friend brought the Samsung one, very nice and a bit cheaper, 20gig from memory and no DRM lock
    in.

    One thing I have seen that is very bad with the iPod is the head phone socket, it can break away
    from the PC board, and can not be repaired, but that was a older model, things could have changed.
     
    Jack Hammond, Sep 16, 2006
    #2
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  3. Max Burke

    Earl Grey Guest

    Max Burke wrote:
    >
    > Opinions please.....
    >
    > Should I buy an iPod 60/80Gb now or wait for Microsoft to release their
    > Zune PMP?
    >
    > Positives for the iPod..
    > It's available now, it has a large (consumer) support base, and a few
    > 'third parties' are making it do things 'laterally' (creating uses for
    > it other than as a PMP)
    >
    > Negatives.
    > It's locked in to one hardware/software model, it has tiny screen,
    > (Watch movies on that screen? Get real Apple!) there is no online
    > services provided by Apple to NZ users, and it has a premium pricing
    > 'model' because it is Apple...


    snip

    There's a price drop due on iPods
    MacWarehouse has them significantly cheaper than retail stores, and the
    6th gen prophecy from St Jobs proclaimed a price drop from $US300 to
    $US250 for 30GB
    So I wouldn't rush out to buy the current stock immediately.

    The ipod will have the best interface design, thats Apples big strength.
    If you go for the zune it might be prudent to wait till the first
    product recall class action law suit is over and version 2 is out.
    The ipod is now at version 6 and it wasn't all smooth running to there.
    And at least the ipod has the clips and videoblogs and podcasts
    available to download, that infrastructure takes a while to develop.
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 16, 2006
    #3
  4. In message <450b6c29$>, Earl Grey wrote:

    > And at least the ipod has the clips and videoblogs and podcasts
    > available to download, that infrastructure takes a while to develop.


    But none of that stuff is copy-protected, surely. So it should play on
    anything else. It's only the commercial stuff from the iTunes Store that is
    iPod-only.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 16, 2006
    #4
  5. Max Burke

    Gordon Guest

    On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:33:20 +1200, Max Burke wrote:

    > Negatives.
    > It's locked in to one hardware/software model,


    And the MS differs in this how?
     
    Gordon, Sep 16, 2006
    #5
  6. Max Burke

    Earl Grey Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <450b6c29$>, Earl Grey wrote:
    >
    >> And at least the ipod has the clips and videoblogs and podcasts
    >> available to download, that infrastructure takes a while to develop.

    >
    > But none of that stuff is copy-protected, surely. So it should play on
    > anything else. It's only the commercial stuff from the iTunes Store that is
    > iPod-only.


    Sure, I use Juice for podcasts and play them on a pda.
    But the ipod and itunes offers a very sophisticated level of integration
    of the user interface that makes their content very accessible.
    If Apple opened their store to us third worlders, I can imagine
    purchasing audiobooks from them.
    Theres an opportunity for Microsoft, because so far Apple doesn't seem
    interested in providing the full ipod deal to New Zealanders.
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 16, 2006
    #6
  7. Max Burke

    Max Burke Guest

    > Gordon scribbled:
    > On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:33:20 +1200, Max Burke wrote:


    [Apple iPod]
    >> Negatives.
    >> It's locked in to one hardware/software model,


    > And the MS differs in this how?


    Microsoft [apparently] has given the hardware design and manufacturing
    process to 'third parties,' and will provide hardware and software design
    specs/licencing to 'third parties' so they can provide hardware and software
    independant of the microsoft model and branding...

    Apple has not done that for the iPod.
    As usual with their products they have locked it up against any third party
    being able to develop commercially viable hardware and software for the
    iPod.
    It all has to be designed, approved of, and badged as a *Apple* product....

    And 99% of those add on's/accesories are docking stations, extension
    speakers, and cases. Most hardware addons are FM receivers (which most,
    including the ZUNE, include as standard in the PMP), cables and headphone
    'expanders.'
    http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/accessories/
    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Sep 16, 2006
    #7
  8. Max Burke

    XPD Guest

    "Max Burke" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Opinions please.....
    >
    > Should I buy an iPod 60/80Gb now or wait for Microsoft to release their
    > Zune PMP?


    a.. Microsoft's Zune WILL NOT Play Protected Windows Media - Microsoft's
    Zune will not play protected Windows Media Audio and Video purchased or
    "rented" from Napster 2.0, Rhapsody, Yahoo! Unlimited, Movielink, Cinemanow,
    or any other online media service. That's right -- the media that Microsoft
    promised would Play For Sure doesn't even play on Microsoft's own device :-D
    a.. Zune's Viral DRM Violates Creative Commons License - Yesterday Microsoft
    revealed that Zune's highly touted wireless file sharing will infect
    otherwise unprotected audio files with proprietary DRM. If users are sharing
    songs that are covered by a Creative Commons license, this would be a clear
    violation of that license.
     
    XPD, Sep 16, 2006
    #8
  9. Max Burke

    -=rjh=- Guest

    XPD wrote:
    > "Max Burke" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Opinions please.....
    >>
    >> Should I buy an iPod 60/80Gb now or wait for Microsoft to release their
    >> Zune PMP?

    >
    > a.. Microsoft's Zune WILL NOT Play Protected Windows Media - Microsoft's
    > Zune will not play protected Windows Media Audio and Video purchased or
    > "rented" from Napster 2.0, Rhapsody, Yahoo! Unlimited, Movielink, Cinemanow,
    > or any other online media service. That's right -- the media that Microsoft
    > promised would Play For Sure doesn't even play on Microsoft's own device :-D


    You got a source for that?

    I find it hard to believe that MS would want to piss off so many of
    their customers - a lot of early adopters of the Zune will be people who
    already have protected media that they can't play on their ipod. They
    will not be impressed at having to re-purchase their media.


    > a.. Zune's Viral DRM Violates Creative Commons License - Yesterday Microsoft
    > revealed that Zune's highly touted wireless file sharing will infect
    > otherwise unprotected audio files with proprietary DRM. If users are sharing
    > songs that are covered by a Creative Commons license, this would be a clear
    > violation of that license.
    >
    >


    This also seems strange - the application of DRM to CC works may be a
    violation, but equally, so is any sharing of non-CC licensed media.
    There aren't any provisions under copyright law that allow you to share
    with your friends and strangers, even with DRM, for 3 days or 3 plays.

    At least, not yet.
     
    -=rjh=-, Sep 17, 2006
    #9
  10. Max Burke

    XPD Guest

    >> a.. Microsoft's Zune WILL NOT Play Protected Windows Media - Microsoft's
    >> Zune will not play protected Windows Media Audio and Video purchased or
    >> "rented" from Napster 2.0, Rhapsody, Yahoo! Unlimited, Movielink,
    >> Cinemanow, or any other online media service. That's right -- the media
    >> that Microsoft promised would Play For Sure doesn't even play on
    >> Microsoft's own device :-D

    >
    > You got a source for that?
    >
    > I find it hard to believe that MS would want to piss off so many of their
    > customers - a lot of early adopters of the Zune will be people who already
    > have protected media that they can't play on their ipod. They will not be
    > impressed at having to re-purchase their media.



    http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/cmusings/2006/09/15#a2498



    >> a.. Zune's Viral DRM Violates Creative Commons License - Yesterday
    >> Microsoft revealed that Zune's highly touted wireless file sharing will
    >> infect otherwise unprotected audio files with proprietary DRM. If users
    >> are sharing songs that are covered by a Creative Commons license, this
    >> would be a clear violation of that license.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > This also seems strange - the application of DRM to CC works may be a
    > violation, but equally, so is any sharing of non-CC licensed media. There
    > aren't any provisions under copyright law that allow you to share with
    > your friends and strangers, even with DRM, for 3 days or 3 plays.
    >
    > At least, not yet.


    http://www.medialoper.com/hot-topics/music/zunes-big-innovation-viral-drm/
     
    XPD, Sep 17, 2006
    #10
  11. In message <>, Max Burke wrote:

    >> Gordon scribbled:
    >> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:33:20 +1200, Max Burke wrote:

    >
    > [Apple iPod]
    >>> Negatives.
    >>> It's locked in to one hardware/software model,

    >
    >> And the MS differs in this how?

    >
    > Microsoft [apparently] has given the hardware design and manufacturing
    > process to 'third parties,' and will provide hardware and software design
    > specs/licencing to 'third parties' so they can provide hardware and
    > software independant of the microsoft model and branding...


    Not bloody likely. That would put them right back in the "Plays For Sure"
    fiasco, which they're not going to repeat. Apple's success clearly comes
    from the fact that it totally controls the entire stack from top to bottom,
    and Microsoft knows it has to do the same to compete.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 17, 2006
    #11
  12. Max Burke

    Earl Grey Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <>, Max Burke wrote:
    >
    >>> Gordon scribbled:
    >>> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:33:20 +1200, Max Burke wrote:

    >> [Apple iPod]
    >>>> Negatives.
    >>>> It's locked in to one hardware/software model,
    >>> And the MS differs in this how?

    >> Microsoft [apparently] has given the hardware design and manufacturing
    >> process to 'third parties,' and will provide hardware and software design
    >> specs/licencing to 'third parties' so they can provide hardware and
    >> software independant of the microsoft model and branding...

    >
    > Not bloody likely. That would put them right back in the "Plays For Sure"
    > fiasco, which they're not going to repeat. Apple's success clearly comes
    > from the fact that it totally controls the entire stack from top to bottom,
    > and Microsoft knows it has to do the same to compete.


    Toshiba is going to make it according to this
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5288042.stm
    It sounds like it will have bluetooth rather than wifi, wifi uses too
    much battery life.
    It will share market with creative iriver iaudio and gigabeat, and
    probably not have too much impact on Apple.
    What happened to innovation ?
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 17, 2006
    #12
  13. Max Burke

    Don Hills Guest

    In article <450d2d18$>, Earl Grey <> wrote:
    >What happened to innovation ?


    People have been commenting about that aspect of Microsoft for many years.
    "Wait for us, we're the market leader..."

    --
    Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
    "New interface closely resembles Presentation Manager,
    preparing you for the wonders of OS/2!"
    -- Advertisement on the box for Microsoft Windows 2.11 for 286
     
    Don Hills, Sep 17, 2006
    #13
  14. Max Burke

    Vista Guest

    "XPD" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Max Burke" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >> Opinions please.....
    >>
    >> Should I buy an iPod 60/80Gb now or wait for Microsoft to release their
    >> Zune PMP?

    >
    > a.. Microsoft's Zune WILL NOT Play Protected Windows Media - Microsoft's
    > Zune will not play protected Windows Media Audio and Video purchased or
    > "rented" from Napster 2.0, Rhapsody, Yahoo! Unlimited, Movielink,
    > Cinemanow, or any other online media service. That's right -- the media
    > that Microsoft promised would Play For Sure doesn't even play on
    > Microsoft's own device :-D
    > a.. Zune's Viral DRM Violates Creative Commons License - Yesterday
    > Microsoft revealed that Zune's highly touted wireless file sharing will
    > infect otherwise unprotected audio files with proprietary DRM. If users
    > are sharing songs that are covered by a Creative Commons license, this
    > would be a clear violation of that license.
    >
    >


    All this DRM is so confusing. No wonder there are ways to get around it. I
    would be really pissed off if I purchased a music track off a website, and
    couldn't play it on my music player. This could breach NZ consumers laws.
    Possibly that is why Apples itunes haven't launched here yet, even though
    our population is so small that economically it possibly isn't worth their
    while.
     
    Vista, Sep 18, 2006
    #14
  15. On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:54:45 +1200, "Vista" <> wrote:
    >All this DRM is so confusing. No wonder there are ways to get around it. I
    >would be really pissed off if I purchased a music track off a website, and
    >couldn't play it on my music player. This could breach NZ consumers laws.
    >Possibly that is why Apples itunes haven't launched here yet, even though
    >our population is so small that economically it possibly isn't worth their
    >while.


    Just think how much worse DRM would be if NZ got the DMCA - all
    bypassing or removal of DRM would become illegal along with the
    software used to perform such actions.
     
    David Goodwin, Sep 18, 2006
    #15
  16. Max Burke <> wrote:

    > Opinions please.....
    >
    > Should I buy an iPod 60/80Gb now or wait for Microsoft to release their Zune
    > PMP?


    Well, my vote is for the iPod simply because a) it's available right
    now, b) the old models' prices just dropped dramatically, and c) unless
    you really hate iTunes which is needed to organise you
    music/podcasts/audiobooks/etc, you can play any audio in unprotected AAC
    lossy or lossless, MP3, AIFF, or WAVE format. It is only the iTunes
    music store stuff that's copy protected and we cannot get that here in
    NZ, anyway.

    Does anyone know if the MS Zune will have a NZ music store here in NZ
    earlier than an iTunes NZ store? That is the only reason I'd pick the
    Zune over an iPod.

    Regardless, I'm not the least bothered by the prospect of buying AAC
    protected music from any future NZ iTunes store. AAC's copy protection
    is easily circumvented by burning to CD and then simply re-importing.
    Couldn't be easier and it's exactly what my friends overseas do. The CD
    goes away as their backup (which is a really good idea, anyway) and
    then, if in the future they want to change music players, it's not a
    hassle - they have all their music backed up as open AIFFs.

    Regards,
    Jamie Kahn Genet
    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
     
    Jamie Kahn Genet, Sep 18, 2006
    #16
  17. Earl Grey wrote:
    <snip>
    > Toshiba is going to make it according to this
    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5288042.stm
    > It sounds like it will have bluetooth rather than wifi, wifi uses too
    > much battery life.


    Zune uses WiFi not BT

    > It will share market with creative iriver iaudio and gigabeat, and
    > probably not have too much impact on Apple.
    > What happened to innovation ?


    You haven't seen the software yet, so I assume the innovation comment
    is about the hardware?
     
    Nathan Mercer, Sep 18, 2006
    #17
  18. Max Burke

    Earl Grey Guest

    Nathan Mercer wrote:
    > Earl Grey wrote:
    > <snip>
    >> Toshiba is going to make it according to this
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5288042.stm
    >> It sounds like it will have bluetooth rather than wifi, wifi uses too
    >> much battery life.

    >
    > Zune uses WiFi not BT


    Sounds like it will be a big drain on battery life then, but cool to be
    able to stream audio from a hotspot, I can do that with a pda.

    >
    >> It will share market with creative iriver iaudio and gigabeat, and
    >> probably not have too much impact on Apple.
    >> What happened to innovation ?

    >
    > You haven't seen the software yet, so I assume the innovation comment
    > is about the hardware?
    >


    Yep, its just another PMP until you tell us what is smarter about it and
    its something that an iPod user would switch for.
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 18, 2006
    #18
  19. In message <>, Nathan
    Mercer wrote:

    > Zune uses WiFi not BT


    Hey, that's actually a smart decision for once. The trouble with Bluetooth
    is that it has to invent its own custom protocols for every single thing
    you might want to do with it. Whereas Wi-Fi will just run standard TCP/IP,
    with all the usual standard application protocols on top of that.

    You _will_ be using standard TCP/IP and application protocols, won't
    you ... ? :)
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 19, 2006
    #19
  20. Max Burke

    Max Burke Guest

    > Jamie Kahn Genet scribbled:

    >> Max Burke <> wrote:


    >> Opinions please.....
    >> Should I buy an iPod 60/80Gb now or wait for Microsoft to release
    >> their Zune PMP?


    > Well, my vote is for the iPod simply because a) it's available right
    > now, b) the old models' prices just dropped dramatically, and c)
    > unless you really hate iTunes which is needed to organise you
    > music/podcasts/audiobooks/etc, you can play any audio in unprotected
    > AAC lossy or lossless, MP3, AIFF, or WAVE format. It is only the
    > iTunes music store stuff that's copy protected and we cannot get that
    > here in NZ, anyway.


    Looks like I'll be going the iPod for all of the above reasons and that the
    Zune specs are mostly speculation and what *might* be included....

    Now I have to decide between the current 60Gb iPod and the new 80Gb
    model.....

    ;-)
    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Sep 19, 2006
    #20
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