Debian Reduced

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Shane (aka froggy), Mar 15, 2005.

  1. Shane (aka froggy), Mar 15, 2005
    #1
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  2. Shane (aka froggy)

    Axle Guest

    Shane (aka froggy) wrote:
    > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/14/debian_reduced/
    >
    >
    > seems the release delays are going to be a thing of the past
    >
    >


    And a big thankyou to Telstraclear NOT!!!!!

    Debian users on TelstraClear can now no longer access the official
    Debian mirror site
    Instead they get this notice
    http://www.nzix.net/peerless/202.7.4.9/


    Where has the FTP server gone?

    You've been redirected to this page, because your ISP (Internet Service
    Provider) does not peer with the WIX route servers in Wellington, and so
    doesn't have a path to the Citylink FTP server. This affects access to
    our Debian, Gentoo and OpenBSD mirrors, amongst others.
    What can I do about it?

    Glad you asked! If this is a recent occurence (ie, you previously had
    access, and now don't), then you should definitely have look at
    WhereShouldIComplain.
    Background:

    The various servers that Citylink run generate significant data traffic
    - during the day, about 20Mb/s, at night, about 10Mb/s. At peak times,
    it has moved as much as 700Mb/s of data. In the past, Citylink has
    incurred significant (read, 6 figure) costs in delivering content from
    the webcams to users. I've been told to never let that happen again.

    Thus, it has become necessary for Citylink to configure some of our
    services such that we don't run up a bill, by making access available
    only to those entities that choose to peer on WIX. These services are
    generally high volume, zero financial return services that Citylink has
    setup because we use them for our internal operations. We make them
    available to the wider community to encourage a competitive, vibrant and
    strong telecommunications and information technology industry.
     
    Axle, Mar 15, 2005
    #2
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  3. Shane (aka froggy)

    AD. Guest

    On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:29:43 +1300, Shane (aka froggy) wrote:

    > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/14/debian_reduced/


    That seem too overblown. The other arches aren't being 'dropped', they are
    moving to a two tier mirror and release system. They will still be
    developed, but will no longer hold up stable releases. And this only
    applies to the stable release Etch (supposedly 12-18 months away), Sarge
    will still be the same.

    >
    > seems the release delays are going to be a thing of the past


    What makes you think that? ;)

    They'll be something else holding it up next time round.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Mar 15, 2005
    #3

  4. >>
    >> seems the release delays are going to be a thing of the past

    >
    > What makes you think that? ;)
    >
    > They'll be something else holding it up next time round.


    heh.. im using slackware... one guy gets sick (Pat V.) and the world stops :\
    I thought sarge was supposed to be stable back in september
    (I've been waiting for it for here)
    --

    Hardware, n.: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked
     
    Shane (aka froggy), Mar 15, 2005
    #4
  5. Shane (aka froggy)

    AD. Guest

    On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:52:56 +1300, Shane (aka froggy) wrote:

    > :\ I thought sarge was supposed to be stable back in september (I've been
    > waiting for it for here)


    Yeah, sounds familiar.

    It sounds like the Sarge security infrastructure will be ready in a couple
    of weeks. Hopefully that will let me switch some servers to Sarge. I'm
    starting to get impatient about stuff like Postfix 2.1 and PHP 4.3 in
    particular.

    Workstations aren't a problem, Sid or Ubuntu will take care of them.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Mar 15, 2005
    #5
  6. Shane (aka froggy)

    thing Guest

    Axle wrote:
    > Shane (aka froggy) wrote:
    >
    >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/14/debian_reduced/
    >>
    >>
    >> seems the release delays are going to be a thing of the past
    >>
    >>

    >
    > And a big thankyou to Telstraclear NOT!!!!!
    >
    > Debian users on TelstraClear can now no longer access the official
    > Debian mirror site
    > Instead they get this notice
    > http://www.nzix.net/peerless/202.7.4.9/
    >
    >
    > Where has the FTP server gone?


    It is I assume there, what has happened is they have had to class
    connections from Clear as International.

    Also. if you do a traceroute to www.trademe.co.nz you will find it goes
    via the USA and back via AT&T.

    I have asked for an explanation of this from Clear and that I am not
    being charged International traffic for a NZ National site.

    If they are doing so, I wonder if I have any legal recourse?

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Mar 15, 2005
    #6
  7. Shane (aka froggy)

    Chris Hope Guest

    thing wrote:

    > Axle wrote:
    >> Shane (aka froggy) wrote:
    >>
    >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/14/debian_reduced/
    >>>
    >>> seems the release delays are going to be a thing of the past

    >>
    >> And a big thankyou to Telstraclear NOT!!!!!
    >>
    >> Debian users on TelstraClear can now no longer access the official
    >> Debian mirror site
    >> Instead they get this notice
    >> http://www.nzix.net/peerless/202.7.4.9/
    >>
    >> Where has the FTP server gone?

    >
    > It is I assume there, what has happened is they have had to class
    > connections from Clear as International.
    >
    > Also. if you do a traceroute to www.trademe.co.nz you will find it
    > goes via the USA and back via AT&T.
    >
    > I have asked for an explanation of this from Clear and that I am not
    > being charged International traffic for a NZ National site.
    >
    > If they are doing so, I wonder if I have any legal recourse?


    There was an article in the NZ Herald about this a few days back:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=5&ObjectID=10113474

    --
    Chris Hope - The Electric Toolbox - http://www.electrictoolbox.com/
     
    Chris Hope, Mar 15, 2005
    #7
  8. Shane (aka froggy)

    thing Guest

    Chris Hope wrote:
    > thing wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Axle wrote:
    >>
    >>>Shane (aka froggy) wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/14/debian_reduced/
    >>>>
    >>>>seems the release delays are going to be a thing of the past
    >>>
    >>>And a big thankyou to Telstraclear NOT!!!!!
    >>>
    >>>Debian users on TelstraClear can now no longer access the official
    >>>Debian mirror site
    >>>Instead they get this notice
    >>>http://www.nzix.net/peerless/202.7.4.9/
    >>>
    >>>Where has the FTP server gone?

    >>
    >>It is I assume there, what has happened is they have had to class
    >>connections from Clear as International.
    >>
    >>Also. if you do a traceroute to www.trademe.co.nz you will find it
    >>goes via the USA and back via AT&T.
    >>
    >>I have asked for an explanation of this from Clear and that I am not
    >>being charged International traffic for a NZ National site.
    >>
    >>If they are doing so, I wonder if I have any legal recourse?

    >
    >
    > There was an article in the NZ Herald about this a few days back:
    > http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=5&ObjectID=10113474
    >


    hrmm...

    :(

    Given the choice I think I would move from Clear, but lets see the
    alternative is adsl which is telecom and the likes of Orcon.....some choice.

    I have written to Paradise/Clear complaining, probably fall on deaf ears
    though.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Mar 16, 2005
    #8
  9. thing wrote:
    > I have written to Paradise/Clear complaining, probably fall on deaf ears
    > though.


    the techs know, it's just the $$$ people that don't get it that free is
    better than losing money(through losing customers and higher traffic
    charges).
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Mar 16, 2005
    #9
  10. Shane (aka froggy)

    thing Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > thing wrote:
    >
    >> I have written to Paradise/Clear complaining, probably fall on deaf
    >> ears though.

    >
    >
    > the techs know, it's just the $$$ people that don't get it that free is
    > better than losing money(through losing customers and higher traffic
    > charges).


    I know the techs know.....knowing one or two I know just how
    un-impressed they are.....Citylink sure is annoyed....

    If I had a practical choice I think I would move, due to Clear's actions
    but I do not. Unless I go back to dial up and a new ISP. This would then
    of course cost them lost revenue from a cancelled account and my phone
    line engaged for hours thus using their resources....but that would be a
    big pill to swallow....

    If adsl was not via Telecom I just might....woosh is a no goer....

    Interesting that Clear uses Linux and FreeBSD, seems its OK to sponge
    OSes off others but otherwise use your monopoly to wring every penny you
    can.

    I wonder if raising a case to the office of Fair Trading would do
    anything.....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Mar 16, 2005
    #10
  11. Shane (aka froggy)

    EMB Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    >
    > the techs know, it's just the $$$ people that don't get it that free is
    > better than losing money(through losing customers and higher traffic
    > charges).


    This depeering has a lot to answer for. On non-UBS ADSL via ihug, I am
    routed from my PC to ihug's servers via a Telstraclear connection!


    --
    EMB
     
    EMB, Mar 16, 2005
    #11
  12. On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:31:41 +1300, thing <> wrote:

    >It is I assume there, what has happened is they have had to class
    >connections from Clear as International.
    >
    >Also. if you do a traceroute to www.trademe.co.nz you will find it goes
    >via the USA and back via AT&T.


    Actually, you may well find that the traffic does not go to the USA
    and back, as MCI for one has routers in Auckland. You may just be
    being fooled by the router names. My unpeered traffic leaves the
    nzwireless network and is rerouted in Auckland via MCI's Auckland
    Alter.net routers back to global-gateway.net.nz. Of course,
    nzwireless is still peered with Wix (they use Citylink as their
    Wellington to Auckland provider).

    Tracing route to telstraclear.co.nz [202.78.133.134]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 <10 ms <10 ms <10 ms inisantg.jsw.gen.nz [10.0.2.1]
    2 591 ms 20 ms 10 ms 203-110-28-65.nzwireless.co.nz
    [203.110.28.65]
    3 100 ms 40 ms 20 ms 203-110-29-194.nzwireless.co.nz
    [203.110.29.194]
    4 300 ms 181 ms 240 ms 203-110-29-192.nzwireless.co.nz
    [203.110.29.192]
    5 981 ms 70 ms 130 ms 203-110-29-213.nzwireless.co.nz
    [203.110.29.213]
    6 1031 ms 101 ms 140 ms 203.21.27.33
    7 491 ms 240 ms 80 ms 21.so-2-3-0.XR1.AKL1.ALTER.NET
    [210.80.38.125]
    8 511 ms 210 ms 80 ms 11.so-2-0-0.BR1.AKL1.ALTER.NET
    [210.80.38.122]
    9 982 ms 210 ms 70 ms a5-0-0-39.akcr5.global-gateway.net.nz
    [202.50.119.225]
    10 531 ms 90 ms 160 ms vlan-6.aksw7.global-gateway.net.nz
    [202.37.246.21]
    11 510 ms 191 ms 70 ms vlan-9.akpr2.global-gateway.net.nz
    [203.96.120.178]
    12 1001 ms 201 ms 90 ms g1-0-0-906.u11.telstraclear.net
    [203.98.18.65]
    13 650 ms 181 ms 70 ms
    jcore2-ge-0-2-0-927-acld.auckland.clix.net.nz [218.101.61.14]
    14 731 ms 60 ms 110 ms v927.cs2.akl.telstraclear.net
    [218.101.61.2]
    15 * * * Request timed out.

    In the above, note that 203.21.27.33 is the first MCI router - they do
    not have reverse DNS on it, but they own that IP block.

    >I have asked for an explanation of this from Clear and that I am not
    >being charged International traffic for a NZ National site.
    >
    >If they are doing so, I wonder if I have any legal recourse?


    It would certainly pay to have a look at the advertising they used to
    sign you up, to see if they say they give free or cheaper NZ traffic,
    or whether they qualify the language. Then if you could get your
    firewall to log your traffic to NZ sites that route as international
    traffic, you could have a go at a Disputes Tribunal hearing to see if
    you could force TelstraClear to refund you that extra traffic cost.

    >regards
    >
    >Thing
     
    Stephen Worthington, Mar 16, 2005
    #12
  13. On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:17:57 +1300, thing <> wrote:

    >I know the techs know.....knowing one or two I know just how
    >un-impressed they are.....Citylink sure is annoyed....
    >
    >If I had a practical choice I think I would move, due to Clear's actions
    >but I do not. Unless I go back to dial up and a new ISP. This would then
    >of course cost them lost revenue from a cancelled account and my phone
    >line engaged for hours thus using their resources....but that would be a
    >big pill to swallow....
    >
    >If adsl was not via Telecom I just might....woosh is a no goer....


    You might like to consider a long-rnage WiFi connection via nzwireless
    like me then:

    http://www.gasp.co.nz
    http://www.nzwireless.co.nz

    They have coverage over a lot of Wellington now. Unlimited
    international volume at 256 kibtis/s (nominally, actual speed has been
    a bit slower this month), and properly peered NZ traffic as fast as
    your WiFi connection will go (up to 3 Mibits/s if you are really lucky
    with your connection). Traffic like TelstaClear that goes via their
    MCI international connection is counted as international traffic (256
    kibit/s cap). Cost: NZ$70+GST=NZ$78.75 per month.

    >Interesting that Clear uses Linux and FreeBSD, seems its OK to sponge
    >OSes off others but otherwise use your monopoly to wring every penny you
    >can.
    >
    >I wonder if raising a case to the office of Fair Trading would do
    >anything.....
    >
    >regards
    >
    >Thing
     
    Stephen Worthington, Mar 16, 2005
    #13
  14. Shane (aka froggy)

    AD. Guest

    On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:31:38 +1300, Stephen Worthington wrote:

    > You might like to consider a long-rnage WiFi connection via nzwireless
    > like me then:
    >
    > http://www.gasp.co.nz
    > http://www.nzwireless.co.nz
    >
    > They have coverage over a lot of Wellington now. Unlimited international
    > volume at 256 kibtis/s (nominally, actual speed has been a bit slower this
    > month), and properly peered NZ traffic as fast as your WiFi connection
    > will go (up to 3 Mibits/s if you are really lucky with your connection).
    > Traffic like TelstaClear that goes via their MCI international connection
    > is counted as international traffic (256 kibit/s cap). Cost:
    > NZ$70+GST=NZ$78.75 per month.


    Sounds pretty good, although I'd actually prefer a cheaper plan with a
    data cap (yes I'm a weirdo).

    Can you get a static IP?

    What kind of hardware did you need?

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Mar 16, 2005
    #14
  15. On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:56:53 +1300, "AD." <> wrote:

    >On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:31:38 +1300, Stephen Worthington wrote:
    >
    >> You might like to consider a long-rnage WiFi connection via nzwireless
    >> like me then:
    >>
    >> http://www.gasp.co.nz
    >> http://www.nzwireless.co.nz
    >>
    >> They have coverage over a lot of Wellington now. Unlimited international
    >> volume at 256 kibtis/s (nominally, actual speed has been a bit slower this
    >> month), and properly peered NZ traffic as fast as your WiFi connection
    >> will go (up to 3 Mibits/s if you are really lucky with your connection).
    >> Traffic like TelstaClear that goes via their MCI international connection
    >> is counted as international traffic (256 kibit/s cap). Cost:
    >> NZ$70+GST=NZ$78.75 per month.

    >
    >Sounds pretty good, although I'd actually prefer a cheaper plan with a
    >data cap (yes I'm a weirdo).


    Yes, they do have a cheaper capped plan for NZ$40+GST per month. It
    has 1.5 Gibytes international and 10 Gibytes national, but remember
    that a lot of NZ sites that are not properly peered (eg TVNZ that is
    via TelstraClear) will cost you international quota.

    http://www.gasp.co.nz/SITE_Default/residentialDetails.asp

    >Can you get a static IP?


    All the IPs are static. Running servers is fine.

    >What kind of hardware did you need?


    A small semi-parabolic antenna on the roof and a Senao WiFi box. The
    WiFi box runs bridged and connects to your ethernet port. IIRC, my
    install fee was about NZ$400 for all of that. It is best to have an
    ethernet port dedicated to it that runs your firewall, due to it
    operating in bridged mode.
     
    Stephen Worthington, Mar 16, 2005
    #15
  16. Shane (aka froggy)

    thing Guest

    Stephen Worthington wrote:
    > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:31:41 +1300, thing <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>It is I assume there, what has happened is they have had to class
    >>connections from Clear as International.
    >>
    >>Also. if you do a traceroute to www.trademe.co.nz you will find it goes
    >>via the USA and back via AT&T.

    >
    >
    > Actually, you may well find that the traffic does not go to the USA
    > and back, as MCI for one has routers in Auckland. You may just be
    > being fooled by the router names. My unpeered traffic leaves the
    > nzwireless network and is rerouted in Auckland via MCI's Auckland
    > Alter.net routers back to global-gateway.net.nz. Of course,
    > nzwireless is still peered with Wix (they use Citylink as their
    > Wellington to Auckland provider).
    >
    > Tracing route to telstraclear.co.nz [202.78.133.134]
    > over a maximum of 30 hops:
    >
    > 1 <10 ms <10 ms <10 ms inisantg.jsw.gen.nz [10.0.2.1]
    > 2 591 ms 20 ms 10 ms 203-110-28-65.nzwireless.co.nz
    > [203.110.28.65]
    > 3 100 ms 40 ms 20 ms 203-110-29-194.nzwireless.co.nz
    > [203.110.29.194]
    > 4 300 ms 181 ms 240 ms 203-110-29-192.nzwireless.co.nz
    > [203.110.29.192]
    > 5 981 ms 70 ms 130 ms 203-110-29-213.nzwireless.co.nz
    > [203.110.29.213]
    > 6 1031 ms 101 ms 140 ms 203.21.27.33
    > 7 491 ms 240 ms 80 ms 21.so-2-3-0.XR1.AKL1.ALTER.NET
    > [210.80.38.125]
    > 8 511 ms 210 ms 80 ms 11.so-2-0-0.BR1.AKL1.ALTER.NET
    > [210.80.38.122]
    > 9 982 ms 210 ms 70 ms a5-0-0-39.akcr5.global-gateway.net.nz
    > [202.50.119.225]
    > 10 531 ms 90 ms 160 ms vlan-6.aksw7.global-gateway.net.nz
    > [202.37.246.21]
    > 11 510 ms 191 ms 70 ms vlan-9.akpr2.global-gateway.net.nz
    > [203.96.120.178]
    > 12 1001 ms 201 ms 90 ms g1-0-0-906.u11.telstraclear.net
    > [203.98.18.65]
    > 13 650 ms 181 ms 70 ms
    > jcore2-ge-0-2-0-927-acld.auckland.clix.net.nz [218.101.61.14]
    > 14 731 ms 60 ms 110 ms v927.cs2.akl.telstraclear.net
    > [218.101.61.2]
    > 15 * * * Request timed out.
    >
    > In the above, note that 203.21.27.33 is the first MCI router - they do
    > not have reverse DNS on it, but they own that IP block.
    >
    >



    xxxxxx@cerberus:~$ traceroute www.trademe.co.nz
    traceroute to trademe.co.nz (202.21.128.2), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
    1 fe7-3-2.bertha.paradise.net.nz (203.79.92.1) 10.841 ms 11.448 ms
    9.469 ms
    2 g1-0-1042.u21.tar.telstraclear.net (203.98.23.41) 18.974 ms
    25.709 ms 26.825 ms
    3 g9-0.1041.u12.brh.telstraclear.net (203.98.21.37) 20.778 ms
    20.922 ms 28.549 ms
    4 32.107.64.1 (32.107.64.1) 20.301 ms 34.074 ms 18.225 ms
    5 nzwgtn1101er2-1-0-0-1.nz.ip.att.net (165.87.66.118) 40.013 ms
    44.018 ms 31.464 ms
    6 32.114.204.14 (32.114.204.14) 55.997 ms 42.550 ms 39.305 ms
    7 202.135.231.252 (202.135.231.252) 42.323 ms 47.172 ms 39.086 ms
    8 * * *
    9 * *
    xxxxxx@cerberus:~$ host www.trademe.co.nz
    www.trademe.co.nz is an alias for trademe.co.nz.
    trademe.co.nz has address 202.21.128.2

    Looks like there has been a substantial difference in the routeing.
    While it is possible I mistook the routeing, I do not believe so, The
    traceroute times were 290msec plus....suggesting across the pacific and
    back....

    Now though its 39msec, suggesting the NZ Herald article has rattled a
    few cages.

    >>I have asked for an explanation of this from Clear and that I am not
    >>being charged International traffic for a NZ National site.
    >>
    >>If they are doing so, I wonder if I have any legal recourse?

    >
    >
    > It would certainly pay to have a look at the advertising they used to
    > sign you up, to see if they say they give free or cheaper NZ traffic,
    > or whether they qualify the language.


    I have 10 Gig international and 100 Gig National, however trying to find
    the original sales / conditions for my service whicj I took up in 1999
    would probably be impossible.

    Then if you could get your
    > firewall to log your traffic to NZ sites that route as international
    > traffic,


    Paradise logs the IPs for you and volume on at eats an hourly basis, so
    they would be hung bu their own records.

    you could have a go at a Disputes Tribunal hearing to see if
    > you could force TelstraClear to refund you that extra traffic cost.


    Think the tribunal costs $35, so in recovery terms there would be no
    money back, especially as I did not break my data cap. But losing the
    case in a court might rattle a few cages at Clear, especially if it was
    carried by the NZ papers.

    Next stage is to try and see if I can convince my employer to switch ISP
    ......

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Mar 16, 2005
    #16
  17. Shane (aka froggy)

    axel Guest

    On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:50:15 +1300, thing wrote:


    >
    > Now though its 39msec, suggesting the NZ Herald article has rattled a
    > few cages.
    >


    They need to rattle some more, I want that debian archive back or I'm
    dumping the whole Testra cable TV and phone deal.

    These bozos have no idea what internet service is about, they are fools,
    they have taken the great service they inherited where the synergy of
    cable and citylink worked well and turned it to shit.
     
    axel, Mar 16, 2005
    #17
  18. Shane (aka froggy)

    AD. Guest

    On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:20:14 +1300, Stephen Worthington wrote:

    > Yes, they do have a cheaper capped plan for NZ$40+GST per month. It has
    > 1.5 Gibytes international and 10 Gibytes national, but remember that a lot
    > of NZ sites that are not properly peered (eg TVNZ that is via
    > TelstraClear) will cost you international quota.
    >
    > http://www.gasp.co.nz/SITE_Default/residentialDetails.asp
    >
    >>Can you get a static IP?

    >
    > All the IPs are static. Running servers is fine.


    That sounds like me. Most of my traffic would be to/from work which is
    peered at WIX, and the static IPs give me more control with the firewall
    rules at work too.

    >
    >>What kind of hardware did you need?

    >
    > A small semi-parabolic antenna on the roof and a Senao WiFi box. The WiFi
    > box runs bridged and connects to your ethernet port. IIRC, my install fee
    > was about NZ$400 for all of that. It is best to have an ethernet port
    > dedicated to it that runs your firewall, due to it operating in bridged
    > mode.


    I like the idea of a bridge - more flexible. I'll have to save for up the
    install.

    Thanks for that.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Mar 16, 2005
    #18
  19. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Mar 19, 2005
    #19
  20. Shane (aka froggy)

    Bling-Bling Guest

    On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:30:44 +1300, Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:

    > Wow. Sun's SPARC gets dropped, but I still get a Motorola 68K version
    > that I can run on my 12-year-old Mac Centris.
    >
    > Who says it's an unfair world. :)



    Sounds like Debian has enough people actively developing the Motorola 68k
    version, but does not have sufficient people actively developing the SPARC
    version.


    Bling-bling

    --
    Computers are like air conditioners -- they stop working properly if you
    open WINDOWS
     
    Bling-Bling, Mar 19, 2005
    #20
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