D80 "limitation" of lower maximum shutter speed 1/4000?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Giovanni Azua, Oct 22, 2006.

  1. Hi folks,

    As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about? what
    sort of situations one will not be able to creatively shoot with the new D80
    that you could do using the D70(s)? i.e. anything fast enough as to require
    1/8000 shutter speed? e.g. photograph a bullet perhaps? :))

    Thansk in advance,

    Regards,
    Giovanni
    Giovanni Azua, Oct 22, 2006
    #1
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  2. Giovanni Azua wrote:
    > Hi folks,
    >
    > As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    > the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    > maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about? what
    > sort of situations one will not be able to creatively shoot with the
    > new D80 that you could do using the D70(s)? i.e. anything fast enough
    > as to require 1/8000 shutter speed? e.g. photograph a bullet perhaps?
    > :))
    > Thansk in advance,
    >
    > Regards,
    > Giovanni


    While higher possible speeds are desirable, they may not apply to you.
    High speed does help in stopping motion in many cases, but it also can be
    handy in controlling light when you want a large aperture and short depth of
    focus. However with the option to adjust sensitivity as well, that often
    offers a backup method of obtaining large apertures in most situations.

    --
    Joseph Meehan

    Dia duit
    Joseph Meehan, Oct 22, 2006
    #2
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  3. Giovanni Azua

    Bill Hilton Guest

    > Giovanni Azua wrote:
    > Hi folks,
    >
    > As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    > the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    > maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about? what
    > sort of situations one will not be able to creatively shoot with the new D80
    > that you could do using the D70(s)? i.e. anything fast enough as to require
    > 1/8000 shutter speed? e.g. photograph a bullet perhaps? :))


    My two Canon cameras have 1/8,000 th sec shutter speeds but I rarely
    shoot at that setting. I'd say settling for 1/4,000 th sec instead of
    1/8,000 th sec is something that will cause problems for very few
    people and I surely wouldn't let that stop me from getting a certain
    camera. It's just not a big deal IMO ...

    Bill
    Bill Hilton, Oct 22, 2006
    #3
  4. Giovanni Azua

    Paul Rubin Guest

    "Giovanni Azua" <> writes:
    > As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    > the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    > maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about?


    No.
    Paul Rubin, Oct 22, 2006
    #4
  5. Giovanni Azua

    ASAAR Guest

    On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:57:26 +0200, Giovanni Azua wrote:

    > As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    > the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    > maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about? what
    > sort of situations one will not be able to creatively shoot with the new D80
    > that you could do using the D70(s)? i.e. anything fast enough as to require
    > 1/8000 shutter speed? e.g. photograph a bullet perhaps? :))


    A bullet would probably travel just as far across the frame
    whether the shutter speed was 1/4000 or 1/8000th sec, since a focal
    plane shutter is used, so that's not worth worrying about. What
    does make a difference, IIRC, is that the reduced shutter speed is
    due to the D80 using only a mechanical shutter, rather than a
    combined mechanical/electronic shutter, which resulted in the D80
    having a slower maximum (or min.?) flash synch. shutter speed than
    previous Nikon DSLRs.
    ASAAR, Oct 22, 2006
    #5
  6. Giovanni Azua

    Paul Rubin Guest

    ASAAR <> writes:
    > does make a difference, IIRC, is that the reduced shutter speed is
    > due to the D80 using only a mechanical shutter, rather than a
    > combined mechanical/electronic shutter, which resulted in the D80
    > having a slower maximum (or min.?) flash synch. shutter speed than
    > previous Nikon DSLRs.


    Previous Nikon DSLR's including the D70 used a combined
    mechanical/electronic shutter to get the higher flash speed??!! I
    guess it's possible, but I hadn't heard it. I just figured it was
    similar to the N8008 shutter or some descendent thereof.
    Paul Rubin, Oct 22, 2006
    #6
  7. Giovanni Azua

    Bill Funk Guest

    On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:56:45 -0400, ASAAR <> wrote:

    >On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:57:26 +0200, Giovanni Azua wrote:
    >
    >> As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    >> the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    >> maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about? what
    >> sort of situations one will not be able to creatively shoot with the new D80
    >> that you could do using the D70(s)? i.e. anything fast enough as to require
    >> 1/8000 shutter speed? e.g. photograph a bullet perhaps? :))

    >
    > A bullet would probably travel just as far across the frame
    >whether the shutter speed was 1/4000 or 1/8000th sec, since a focal
    >plane shutter is used, so that's not worth worrying about. What
    >does make a difference, IIRC, is that the reduced shutter speed is
    >due to the D80 using only a mechanical shutter, rather than a
    >combined mechanical/electronic shutter, which resulted in the D80
    >having a slower maximum (or min.?) flash synch. shutter speed than
    >previous Nikon DSLRs.


    I love this shit!
    A "High Velocity" (or normal).22lr round has a muzzle velocity of
    1125 ft/sec.
    Or, 3.375 inches per 1/4000sec exposure. Not exactly bullet-stopping
    performance. :)
    The cameras that stop bullets in flight are very high speed.
    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
    Bill Funk, Oct 22, 2006
    #7
  8. Bill Hilton wrote:

    >>Giovanni Azua wrote:
    >>Hi folks,
    >>
    >>As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    >>the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    >>maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about? what
    >>sort of situations one will not be able to creatively shoot with the new D80
    >>that you could do using the D70(s)? i.e. anything fast enough as to require
    >>1/8000 shutter speed? e.g. photograph a bullet perhaps? :))

    >
    >
    > My two Canon cameras have 1/8,000 th sec shutter speeds but I rarely
    > shoot at that setting. I'd say settling for 1/4,000 th sec instead of
    > 1/8,000 th sec is something that will cause problems for very few
    > people and I surely wouldn't let that stop me from getting a certain
    > camera. It's just not a big deal IMO ...
    >
    > Bill
    >

    Bill,
    I agree. When I got the 1D Mark II, I thought great, now no more
    1/4000 sec limit. But I casually looked through some images and
    couldn't find one faster than 1/4000. I do remember hitting that
    limit on my 10D occasionally, like this one at the limit:
    http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/egret.c02.29.2004.img_7728.b-600.html
    but I just closed the aperture down a little. On a power stroke
    on a white bird in sunlight, 1/4000 second may not be enough to
    freeze the wingtips, but then a little blur in the wingtips
    does show action.

    Roger
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Oct 22, 2006
    #8
  9. Giovanni Azua

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >Bill Funk wrote:
    >
    > I love this shit!
    > A "High Velocity" (or normal).22lr round has a muzzle velocity of
    > 1125 ft/sec.
    > Or, 3.375 inches per 1/4000sec exposure. Not exactly bullet-stopping
    > performance. :)


    Point well taken :)

    > The cameras that stop bullets in flight are very high speed.


    All the images I've seen that stopped bullets in flight were taken with
    flash, typically set so the bullet crossing the plane tripped the flash
    .... the short duration of the flash is what freezes the bullet, not the
    shutter speed.

    Bill
    Bill Hilton, Oct 22, 2006
    #9
  10. Giovanni Azua

    ASAAR Guest

    On 22 Oct 2006 09:10:20 -0700, Paul Rubin
    <http://> wrote:

    >> does make a difference, IIRC, is that the reduced shutter speed is
    >> due to the D80 using only a mechanical shutter, rather than a
    >> combined mechanical/electronic shutter, which resulted in the D80
    >> having a slower maximum (or min.?) flash synch. shutter speed than
    >> previous Nikon DSLRs.

    >
    > Previous Nikon DSLR's including the D70 used a combined
    > mechanical/electronic shutter to get the higher flash speed??!! I
    > guess it's possible, but I hadn't heard it. I just figured it was
    > similar to the N8008 shutter or some descendent thereof.


    I don't know if *all* previous Nikon DSLRs used combined shutters,
    but I'm pretty sure that of those that did, the D70 was one. I'm
    checking dpreview now (where I probably read it) and so far I see
    that the D80's flash synch tops out at 1/200 vs 1/500 for the D70
    and that the D80's shutter is a "Mechanical only shutter (maximum
    1/4000 sec, flash sync to 1/200 sec)" and this:

    > Compared to the Nikon D70s, major feature and specification differences
    >
    > As you can see from the table below the D80 carries some quite significant
    > improvements compared to the D70s, the only slight negative point being
    > slightly slower maximum shutter speed and flash sync (this due to a lack
    > of an electronic shutter).

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/

    . . . confirmed in dpreview's D70 review:

    > • Combined mechanical and CCD electronic shutter
    > • 30 to 1/8000 sec



    I believe that the built-in flash is more versatile than that of
    the D70 when used in commander mode, and here I'm straining to
    recall the difference, but it might be that the D80 can control
    multiple groups of flashes. Another difference between them is that
    the D70 has a USB 2.0 Full Speed port, so it transfers files much
    slower than the D80's USB 2.0 High Speed allows, which was tested at
    up to 8.8 MB/sec.
    ASAAR, Oct 22, 2006
    #10
  11. Giovanni Azua

    Paul Rubin Guest

    "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <> writes:
    > but I just closed the aperture down a little. On a power stroke
    > on a white bird in sunlight, 1/4000 second may not be enough to
    > freeze the wingtips, but then a little blur in the wingtips
    > does show action.


    If the power stroke is a downstroke and the 1DmkII has a top-to-bottom
    vertical shutter, then maybe holding the camera upside down would
    freeze the wingtips better, since the wings would be travelling in the
    opposite direction of the shutter slit.
    Paul Rubin, Oct 22, 2006
    #11
  12. Giovanni Azua

    ASAAR Guest

    On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:57:57 -0700, Bill Funk wrote:

    >> A bullet would probably travel just as far across the frame
    >> whether the shutter speed was 1/4000 or 1/8000th sec, since a focal
    >> plane shutter is used, so that's not worth worrying about. What
    >> does make a difference, IIRC, is that the reduced shutter speed is
    >> due to the D80 using only a mechanical shutter, rather than a
    >> combined mechanical/electronic shutter, which resulted in the D80
    >> having a slower maximum (or min.?) flash synch. shutter speed than
    >> previous Nikon DSLRs.

    >
    > I love this shit!
    > A "High Velocity" (or normal).22lr round has a muzzle velocity of
    > 1125 ft/sec.
    > Or, 3.375 inches per 1/4000sec exposure. Not exactly bullet-stopping
    > performance. :)
    > The cameras that stop bullets in flight are very high speed.


    That's my point - that the 1/4000 or 1/8000 sec. shutter speed
    wouldn't stop the bullet in flight, since the shutter is open for a
    much longer period than 1/4000th sec. and it would travel a
    significant distance across the frame. But the apparent distance
    travelled would probably be the same for both of these shutter
    speeds, because at 1/8000 sec., the slit is narrower. It's only
    because at the highest speeds that the focal plane shutter presents
    a small moving slit for light to pass through that the claim can be
    made for a high "effective" shutter speed. But that's only good for
    getting a good exposure, not for stopping objects. The moving slit
    causes effects that you've already seen, such as the wheels of race
    cars appearing as ovals instead of circles, and moving objects that
    appear to be "leaning". Returnez nous to in-lens leaf shutters?
    PMF :)
    ASAAR, Oct 22, 2006
    #12
  13. Giovanni Azua

    Steve Wolfe Guest

    > As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    > the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    > maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about? what
    > sort of situations one will not be able to creatively shoot with the new
    > D80
    > that you could do using the D70(s)? i.e. anything fast enough as to
    > require
    > 1/8000 shutter speed? e.g. photograph a bullet perhaps? :))


    If you're trying to do something like shoot at f/1.2 or f/1.4 in full
    daylight, then 1/4000th won't be fast enough even at ISO 100. You can use
    an ND filter, or just stop down a little bit. It's not the sort of thing
    that becomes a problem very often.

    steve
    Steve Wolfe, Oct 22, 2006
    #13
  14. ? "ASAAR" <> ?????? ??? ??????
    news:...
    > On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:57:26 +0200, Giovanni Azua wrote:
    >
    > > As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    > > the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    > > maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about? what
    > > sort of situations one will not be able to creatively shoot with the new

    D80
    > > that you could do using the D70(s)? i.e. anything fast enough as to

    require
    > > 1/8000 shutter speed? e.g. photograph a bullet perhaps? :))

    >
    > A bullet would probably travel just as far across the frame
    > whether the shutter speed was 1/4000 or 1/8000th sec, since a focal
    > plane shutter is used, so that's not worth worrying about.

    I think that bullets have a velocity of several mach,.it depends on many
    things(kind of gun etc)so it travels much faster than the average bird.The
    difficult thing would be to synchronize the shutter with the bullet, so it
    passes in front of the lens when the shutter is released.But we were taught
    in the army that a pilot in a fighter airplane can see your bullets when
    they fly along the aircraft's trajectory.So, you don't have to hit him, just
    scare him by seeing all the bullets around him:)
    > What
    > does make a difference, IIRC, is that the reduced shutter speed is
    > due to the D80 using only a mechanical shutter, rather than a
    > combined mechanical/electronic shutter, which resulted in the D80
    > having a slower maximum (or min.?) flash synch. shutter speed than
    > previous Nikon DSLRs.

    Yeah, right, my Nikon FM-2 had 1/4000 and flash at 1/250, that must be the
    best for a mechanical shutter camera.



    --
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    major in electrical engineering
    mechanized infantry reservist
    dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Oct 22, 2006
    #14
  15. Giovanni Azua

    ASAAR Guest

    On 22 Oct 2006 10:38:51 -0700, Paul Rubin
    <http://> wrote:

    >> but I just closed the aperture down a little. On a power stroke
    >> on a white bird in sunlight, 1/4000 second may not be enough to
    >> freeze the wingtips, but then a little blur in the wingtips
    >> does show action.

    >
    > If the power stroke is a downstroke and the 1DmkII has a top-to-bottom
    > vertical shutter, then maybe holding the camera upside down would
    > freeze the wingtips better, since the wings would be travelling in the
    > opposite direction of the shutter slit.


    You may be right, but I thought that the image was inverted on the
    focal plane. If so, during a down stroke, the wing tips would be
    moving up while the shutter's slit moves down. But whichever way
    works, camera right side up or inverted, that would tend to
    underexpose the wingtips a bit, no? Probably not enough to make
    much of a difference, though.
    ASAAR, Oct 22, 2006
    #15
  16. Giovanni Azua

    Paul Rubin Guest

    ASAAR <> writes:
    > You may be right, but I thought that the image was inverted on the
    > focal plane. If so, during a down stroke, the wing tips would be
    > moving up while the shutter's slit moves down.


    Hmm, true.
    Paul Rubin, Oct 22, 2006
    #16
  17. Giovanni Azua

    Bill Hilton Guest


    > Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
    >
    > Bill,
    > I agree. When I got the 1D Mark II, I thought great, now no more
    > 1/4000 sec limit. But I casually looked through some images and
    > couldn't find one faster than 1/4000.


    Hi Roger,

    I thought I might have a few shots at 1/4,000th or even 1/8,000th of
    hummingbirds in flight but when I just checked I can't find any faster
    than 1/2,000 or 1/2,500th ...

    http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/tests/humm_T1995_2000thsec.jpg
    http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/tests/humm_T2042_2500thsec.jpg

    These are hand-held at f/5.6 (70-200 f/2.8 w/ 1.4x, stopped down one
    stop), ISO 250, no flash. So had I shot wide open at f/4 I would have
    needed 1/4,000 and 1/5,000 ... if I had the 300 f/2.8 L and shot wide
    open then I'd be needing 1/8,000th or faster even at this ISO so I
    guess there are times when 1/8,000th comes in handy ... I just never
    seem to get to that point in actual shooting.

    To the guy's original Q, I guess it's nice to be able to go to 1/8,000
    but you rarely need it in most situations and for sure I wouldn't pick
    a camera with otherwise lesser features just for that.

    Bill
    Bill Hilton, Oct 22, 2006
    #17
  18. "Giovanni Azua" <> wrote in message news:...
    > As stated in the review on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
    > the single downgrade comparing D80 vs D70 & D70s is the slower
    > maximum shutter speed ... isn't it a downgrade to worry about? what
    > sort of situations one will not be able to creatively shoot with the new D80
    > that you could do using the D70(s)? i.e. anything fast enough as to require
    > 1/8000 shutter speed? e.g. photograph a bullet perhaps? :))


    The higher shutter speed of the D70 has an advantage for
    the top available flash synch speed (1/500th for the D70,
    1/200th for the D80 as I recall...). Shooting with flash fill
    in daylight becomes MUCH easier with the higher synch.
    speed. As others have pointed out, though, 1/4000th is
    fine for just about anything available-light...
    --
    David Ruether


    http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
    David Ruether, Oct 22, 2006
    #18
  19. Giovanni Azua

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >David Ruether wrote:
    >
    > The higher shutter speed of the D70 has an advantage for
    > the top available flash synch speed (1/500th for the D70,
    > 1/200th for the D80 as I recall...). Shooting with flash fill
    > in daylight becomes MUCH easier with the higher synch.
    > speed.


    Don't the Nikon flashes have a special 'high speed sync' mode which
    lets you sync at ANY shutter speed, with the trade-off of a drop in
    power? The Canon flashes have this, you can sync up to 1/8,000th sec,
    and I thought Nikon had it too?

    But shooting full power with 1/500th sec sync is better than shooting
    1/200th sec sync (or 1/500th sec with reduced power in special mode),
    so this is a point in favor of the D70 I guess ...
    Bill Hilton, Oct 22, 2006
    #19
  20. Giovanni Azua

    Pete D Guest

    Hummingbird wings probably need a fast flash to freeze them.

    "Bill Hilton" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >> Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
    >>
    >> Bill,
    >> I agree. When I got the 1D Mark II, I thought great, now no more
    >> 1/4000 sec limit. But I casually looked through some images and
    >> couldn't find one faster than 1/4000.

    >
    > Hi Roger,
    >
    > I thought I might have a few shots at 1/4,000th or even 1/8,000th of
    > hummingbirds in flight but when I just checked I can't find any faster
    > than 1/2,000 or 1/2,500th ...
    >
    > http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/tests/humm_T1995_2000thsec.jpg
    > http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/tests/humm_T2042_2500thsec.jpg
    >
    > These are hand-held at f/5.6 (70-200 f/2.8 w/ 1.4x, stopped down one
    > stop), ISO 250, no flash. So had I shot wide open at f/4 I would have
    > needed 1/4,000 and 1/5,000 ... if I had the 300 f/2.8 L and shot wide
    > open then I'd be needing 1/8,000th or faster even at this ISO so I
    > guess there are times when 1/8,000th comes in handy ... I just never
    > seem to get to that point in actual shooting.
    >
    > To the guy's original Q, I guess it's nice to be able to go to 1/8,000
    > but you rarely need it in most situations and for sure I wouldn't pick
    > a camera with otherwise lesser features just for that.
    >
    > Bill
    >
    Pete D, Oct 22, 2006
    #20
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