D70 Raw Image Sharpening - some or none

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Don F, Jun 16, 2004.

  1. Don F

    Don F Guest

    There are differing opinions when this topic is searched. Some say none
    because (usually) the internal sharpening process performed by the camera is
    nowhere as good as the sharpening done in post processing. I have read that
    sharpening should be done in several stages rather than one which would be
    an argument for allowing some sharpening in the D70. Also, it is said that
    the D70 sharpening algorithm is excellent so there is some benefit to using
    some sharpening ... but how much?
    Someone argued that *all* raw images from a digital camera have a soft
    quality and require sharpening to be acceptable.
    I just received my D70 and am (obviously) not too high on the digital
    learning curve so some direction will be appreciated. I know this may
    become clearer as I use my camera but I am a little overwhelmed with
    information right now.
    TIA
    Don F
    Don F, Jun 16, 2004
    #1
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  2. On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:53:49 -0400, "Don F" <> wrote:

    > There are differing opinions when this topic is searched. Some say none
    >because (usually) the internal sharpening process performed by the camera is
    >nowhere as good as the sharpening done in post processing. I have read that
    >sharpening should be done in several stages rather than one which would be
    >an argument for allowing some sharpening in the D70. Also, it is said that
    >the D70 sharpening algorithm is excellent so there is some benefit to using
    >some sharpening ... but how much?
    > Someone argued that *all* raw images from a digital camera have a soft
    >quality and require sharpening to be acceptable.
    > I just received my D70 and am (obviously) not too high on the digital
    >learning curve so some direction will be appreciated. I know this may
    >become clearer as I use my camera but I am a little overwhelmed with
    >information right now.
    >TIA
    >Don F
    >


    I am early in the D70 learning curve as well, and am only now
    downloading software that will allow me to look at the raw files. I
    have been taking all pix storing raw and low-grade JPEG, but all I can
    look at is the JPEG.

    I understand that in general you never do any sharpening on a raw file
    until everything else has been done. And you keep the original raw
    file in case you want to do something else with it.


    Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


    Ask not with whom the buck stops . . .
    Rodney Myrvaagnes, Jun 17, 2004
    #2
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  3. I have been using my D70 for about two months now. I only use raw and I do
    sharpen in the camera. I have used a mediun low level. I find the camera
    sharpening is excellent. You can always add more in PS or Capture.
    Next issue will be the tendency to underexpose.........
    Good Luck,

    Dennis
    "Don F" <> wrote in message
    news:2c4Ac.3582$rf7.2261@lakeread02...
    > There are differing opinions when this topic is searched. Some say none
    > because (usually) the internal sharpening process performed by the camera

    is
    > nowhere as good as the sharpening done in post processing. I have read

    that
    > sharpening should be done in several stages rather than one which would be
    > an argument for allowing some sharpening in the D70. Also, it is said

    that
    > the D70 sharpening algorithm is excellent so there is some benefit to

    using
    > some sharpening ... but how much?
    > Someone argued that *all* raw images from a digital camera have a soft
    > quality and require sharpening to be acceptable.
    > I just received my D70 and am (obviously) not too high on the digital
    > learning curve so some direction will be appreciated. I know this may
    > become clearer as I use my camera but I am a little overwhelmed with
    > information right now.
    > TIA
    > Don F
    >
    >
    Dennis Petito, Jun 17, 2004
    #3
  4. Don F

    B.A.S. Guest

    Dennis Petito wrote:

    > I have been using my D70 for about two months now. I only use raw and I do
    > sharpen in the camera. I have used a mediun low level. I find the camera
    > sharpening is excellent. You can always add more in PS or Capture.


    Or more importantly, you can turn it off in Capture before going into PS.

    I shoot jpg+RAW with my D70, and have sharpening on in-camera, just so
    my previews are reasonably crisp. For keepers requiring further
    processing, I usually remove the sharpening in Capture, and save as a
    TIFF for opening in PS (I have an older PS that won't open the RAW
    file). When done tweaking in PS, I apply USM there (unless I plan to
    submit the pic to a stock agency, in which case no sharpening is applied).

    When I finally get around to upgrading to the current PS, this workflow
    may change (Capture is very slow on my machine, and a memory hog, so I'd
    prefer to take it out of the workflow).

    YMMV,

    B.A.S.
    B.A.S., Jun 17, 2004
    #4
  5. Don F

    Fil Ament Guest

    In article <2c4Ac.3582$rf7.2261@lakeread02>, "Don F" <>
    wrote:

    > There are differing opinions when this topic is searched. Some say none
    > because (usually) the internal sharpening process performed by the camera is
    > nowhere as good as the sharpening done in post processing. I have read that
    > sharpening should be done in several stages rather than one which would be
    > an argument for allowing some sharpening in the D70. Also, it is said that
    > the D70 sharpening algorithm is excellent so there is some benefit to using
    > some sharpening ... but how much?
    > Someone argued that *all* raw images from a digital camera have a soft
    > quality and require sharpening to be acceptable.
    > I just received my D70 and am (obviously) not too high on the digital
    > learning curve so some direction will be appreciated. I know this may
    > become clearer as I use my camera but I am a little overwhelmed with
    > information right now.
    > TIA
    > Don F
    >
    >


    Well you have the camera, why not try it out and evaluate it yourself?
    Under your own set of circumstances ?
    --
    The joy of a forever Unknown Artist is the mystery and potential
    of a Blank canvas.

    This is a provision for the mind's eye.
    I see the lights go on, but realize of course no one's home.
    Fil Ament, Jun 17, 2004
    #5
  6. Don F

    Paul Howland Guest

    Don F wrote:
    > There are differing opinions when this topic is searched. Some say none
    > because (usually) the internal sharpening process performed by the camera is
    > nowhere as good as the sharpening done in post processing. I have read that
    > sharpening should be done in several stages rather than one which would be
    > an argument for allowing some sharpening in the D70. Also, it is said that
    > the D70 sharpening algorithm is excellent so there is some benefit to using
    > some sharpening ... but how much?
    > Someone argued that *all* raw images from a digital camera have a soft
    > quality and require sharpening to be acceptable.
    > I just received my D70 and am (obviously) not too high on the digital
    > learning curve so some direction will be appreciated. I know this may
    > become clearer as I use my camera but I am a little overwhelmed with
    > information right now.
    > TIA
    > Don F


    Raw images aren't sharpened within the camera at all - that's the nature
    of raw - the Bayer demosaicing hasn't even been performed, so the camera
    can't sharpen the image! However, the Nikon Capture software does read
    the sharpening setting on the camera and apply that level of sharpening
    to the raw image in software on your computer automatically. You can of
    course, override the camera setting in Nikon Capture and apply whatever
    sharpening you want.

    Most advise to use Low or None for sharpening in Capture, then do any
    post processing in Photoshop, then apply the exact sharpening you want
    using the Unsharp Mask as your final processing step before saving the JPEG.

    Hope this helps,

    Paul
    Paul Howland, Jun 17, 2004
    #6
  7. Don F

    Don F Guest

    "Paul Howland" <> wrote in message
    news:40d1261c$0$205$...
    > Raw images aren't sharpened within the camera at all - that's the nature
    > of raw - the Bayer demosaicing hasn't even been performed, so the camera
    > can't sharpen the image! However, the Nikon Capture software does read
    > the sharpening setting on the camera and apply that level of sharpening
    > to the raw image in software on your computer automatically. You can of
    > course, override the camera setting in Nikon Capture and apply whatever
    > sharpening you want.
    >
    > Most advise to use Low or None for sharpening in Capture, then do any
    > post processing in Photoshop, then apply the exact sharpening you want
    > using the Unsharp Mask as your final processing step before saving the

    JPEG.
    >
    > Hope this helps,
    >
    > Paul

    -------------------------
    I don't have the Nikon Capture software and some here suggest that it is
    not necessary. I am trying to establish a good workflow process.
    What you say is of great interest. You say that the sharpening settings
    in the camera are not implemented into the camera raw data output and only
    the camera sharpening setting is preserved. The "shooting data" provided by
    Nikon View software shows "sharpening: auto" (which is my present sharpening
    setting). What does that mean to viewing software or PS when the picture is
    loaded into these programs?
    I guess my basic question is: "When I load a raw (NEF) file into PS (and
    make no changes to the NEF file in the pop-up window while loading) what
    camera settings are transferred to PS at this stage of processing?"
    When I view a picture on my monitor using any viewing utility (Windows
    viewer, Nikon View, or PS viewer) am I seeing the effects of the camera
    sharpening setting? At what stage of the workflow process are the effects
    of the camera settings implemented from an NEF file?
    Thanks for your informative reply, Paul.
    Don F
    Don F, Jun 17, 2004
    #7
  8. Don F

    Don F Guest

    "Rodney Myrvaagnes" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    <snip>
    > I am early in the D70 learning curve as well, and am only now
    > downloading software that will allow me to look at the raw files. I
    > have been taking all pix storing raw and low-grade JPEG, but all I can
    > look at is the JPEG.

    .............
    > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

    ------------------------
    Rodney, download and install the latest Nikon View software from the
    Nikon site and you will be able to view NEFs. Also, plug-ins are
    automatically provided for PhotoShop and PS Elements.
    Don F
    Don F, Jun 17, 2004
    #8
  9. Don F

    adm Guest

    "Don F" <> wrote in message
    news:Z%eAc.3656$rf7.2052@lakeread02...
    > "Rodney Myrvaagnes" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:...
    > <snip>
    > > I am early in the D70 learning curve as well, and am only now
    > > downloading software that will allow me to look at the raw files. I
    > > have been taking all pix storing raw and low-grade JPEG, but all I can
    > > look at is the JPEG.

    > ............
    > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

    > ------------------------
    > Rodney, download and install the latest Nikon View software from the
    > Nikon site and you will be able to view NEFs. Also, plug-ins are
    > automatically provided for PhotoShop and PS Elements.


    One caveat to this though......

    If you install Nikon View it sometimes seems to overwrtite the existing
    Photoshop Camera RAW plug in. As the Nikon plug in is far more limited than
    the PS one, you need to make sure to copy the correct PS RAW plug in back
    after the install.
    adm, Jun 17, 2004
    #9
  10. Don F

    Guy Scharf Guest

    "Don F" <> wrote:
    > I guess my basic question is: "When I load a raw (NEF) file
    > into PS (and
    > make no changes to the NEF file in the pop-up window while
    > loading) what camera settings are transferred to PS at this stage
    > of processing?"
    > When I view a picture on my monitor using any viewing utility
    > (Windows
    > viewer, Nikon View, or PS viewer) am I seeing the effects of the
    > camera sharpening setting? At what stage of the workflow process
    > are the effects of the camera settings implemented from an NEF
    > file?


    When you view a NEF file in Nikon View (NV) at 100%, the in-camera
    settings are applied. When you view at a smaller resolution, I'm not
    sure. The image is reprocessed when you increase to 100%.

    I suspect the Windows Viewer is showing a thumbnail that is kept in, I
    think, the EXIF data. The Windows Viewer shows only the thumbnail; it
    will not show a larger version as it will for a JPEG image etc.

    Nikon Capture (NC) applies the in-camera settings. Nikon Capture
    allows you to change those settings and then renders the image again
    with the revised settings. NC is a very powerful program.

    I do not have PS so can only quote what I have read. My understanding
    is that Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) ignores most in-camera settings and
    applies its own defaults. You can also use the plug-in from Nikon to
    read a NEF into PS. That should honor the settings (it does when used
    with Paint Shop Pro anyway) but does not give you the opportunity to
    alter most of them as NC does.

    I primarily use NV to browse the images and NC for initial editing of
    white balance, cropping, etc. One of the advantages of using NC for
    that editing is that it saves all the adjustments in the NEF file but
    presumably does not alter the raw pixel data. I use Paint Shop Pro for
    dodging, burning, blending, rotating, and similar modifications of the
    image. To simplify workflow, my shooting goal is to be able to make
    all necessary modifications in NC and not have to use a later editing
    program.

    HTH.

    Guy
    Guy Scharf, Jun 17, 2004
    #10
  11. Don F

    Don F Guest

    "adm" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > One caveat to this though......
    >
    > If you install Nikon View it sometimes seems to overwrtite the existing
    > Photoshop Camera RAW plug in. As the Nikon plug in is far more limited

    than
    > the PS one, you need to make sure to copy the correct PS RAW plug in back
    > after the install.
    >

    -----------------
    Do you know the file name of the PS RAW plug-in?
    *After* the Nikon View install, i have the following files in the
    << .... photo shop only\File Formats >> folder:
    Gif.8bi
    Nikon NEF Plug-in.8bi
    Nikon YCC TIFF.8bi
    Png.8bi
    Too bad I didn't rad your caveat before installation of NV.
    Don F
    Don F, Jun 17, 2004
    #11
  12. Don F

    Paul Howland Guest

    Don F wrote:

    > I don't have the Nikon Capture software and some here suggest that it is
    > not necessary. I am trying to establish a good workflow process.
    > What you say is of great interest. You say that the sharpening settings
    > in the camera are not implemented into the camera raw data output and only
    > the camera sharpening setting is preserved. The "shooting data" provided by
    > Nikon View software shows "sharpening: auto" (which is my present sharpening
    > setting). What does that mean to viewing software or PS when the picture is
    > loaded into these programs?
    > I guess my basic question is: "When I load a raw (NEF) file into PS (and
    > make no changes to the NEF file in the pop-up window while loading) what
    > camera settings are transferred to PS at this stage of processing?"
    > When I view a picture on my monitor using any viewing utility (Windows
    > viewer, Nikon View, or PS viewer) am I seeing the effects of the camera
    > sharpening setting? At what stage of the workflow process are the effects
    > of the camera settings implemented from an NEF file?
    > Thanks for your informative reply, Paul.
    > Don F


    Hi Don,

    If you import the NEF using Adobe Photoshop CS and the latest Adobne
    Camera Raw (ACR) that Adobe supply with it (nb. this is different from
    the raw plugin that Nikon supply with the free Nikon View application)
    then you also get an opportunity to apply your own level of sharpness
    under the Detail tab - you can also do luminance smoothing, color noise
    reduction, vignetting, color temperature, etc. Basically the same story
    as using the Nikon Capture software.

    I can't remember exactly what the basic Nikon plugin does - not very
    much if I remember correctly.

    The camera settings on the NEF file will simply act as the default
    settings in Nikon Capture or ACR. If you do nothing else, they will be
    applied when you save as JPEG or import into Photoshop. However, you
    have the opportunity to change them before this.

    Paul
    Paul Howland, Jun 17, 2004
    #12
  13. On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:11:52 -0400, "Don F" <> wrote:

    >"Rodney Myrvaagnes" <> wrote in message
    >news:eek:...
    ><snip>
    >> I am early in the D70 learning curve as well, and am only now
    >> downloading software that will allow me to look at the raw files. I
    >> have been taking all pix storing raw and low-grade JPEG, but all I can
    >> look at is the JPEG.

    >............
    >> Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

    >------------------------
    > Rodney, download and install the latest Nikon View software from the
    >Nikon site and you will be able to view NEFs. Also, plug-ins are
    >automatically provided for PhotoShop and PS Elements.
    >Don F
    >

    Thanks, I will do that immediately.


    Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


    Ask not with whom the buck stops . . .
    Rodney Myrvaagnes, Jun 17, 2004
    #13
  14. Don F

    adm Guest

    "Don F" <> wrote in message
    news:7IiAc.6291$cj3.5681@lakeread01...
    > "adm" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >
    > > One caveat to this though......
    > >
    > > If you install Nikon View it sometimes seems to overwrtite the existing
    > > Photoshop Camera RAW plug in. As the Nikon plug in is far more limited

    > than
    > > the PS one, you need to make sure to copy the correct PS RAW plug in

    back
    > > after the install.
    > >

    > -----------------
    > Do you know the file name of the PS RAW plug-in?
    > *After* the Nikon View install, i have the following files in the
    > << .... photo shop only\File Formats >> folder:
    > Gif.8bi
    > Nikon NEF Plug-in.8bi
    > Nikon YCC TIFF.8bi
    > Png.8bi
    > Too bad I didn't rad your caveat before installation of NV.
    > Don F


    Don,

    It's "Camera RAW.8bi"

    Downloadable from the Adobe website if you don't have it already.
    adm, Jun 17, 2004
    #14
  15. Don F

    Don F Guest

    "adm" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Don,
    >
    > It's "Camera RAW.8bi"
    >
    > Downloadable from the Adobe website if you don't have it already.
    >

    ---------
    Thanks,
    Don F
    Don F, Jun 17, 2004
    #15
  16. On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:53:22 +0100, "adm" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Don F" <> wrote in message
    >news:Z%eAc.3656$rf7.2052@lakeread02...
    >> "Rodney Myrvaagnes" <> wrote in message
    >> news:eek:...
    >> <snip>
    >> > I am early in the D70 learning curve as well, and am only now
    >> > downloading software that will allow me to look at the raw files. I
    >> > have been taking all pix storing raw and low-grade JPEG, but all I can
    >> > look at is the JPEG.

    >> ............
    >> > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

    >> ------------------------
    >> Rodney, download and install the latest Nikon View software from the
    >> Nikon site and you will be able to view NEFs. Also, plug-ins are
    >> automatically provided for PhotoShop and PS Elements.

    >
    >One caveat to this though......
    >
    >If you install Nikon View it sometimes seems to overwrtite the existing
    >Photoshop Camera RAW plug in. As the Nikon plug in is far more limited than
    >the PS one, you need to make sure to copy the correct PS RAW plug in back
    >after the install.
    >


    Another problem showed up when I went to the Nikon site. The software
    can't install on Win 98SE, which is the same problem with the Phase
    one software I alredy downloaded.

    I realized that my "antique" 450 MHz machine is not up to digital
    photography. Last night I ordered a refurbished machine with 1 Gbyte
    memory, 3 GHz P4, and 120 Gbyte HDD. I hope that will work for a
    while.

    Sigh. . .





    Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


    Capsizing under chute, and having the chute rise and fill without tangling, all while Mark and Sally are still behind you
    Rodney Myrvaagnes, Jun 17, 2004
    #16
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