D70 Raw Ain't?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Dane Brickman, Jul 20, 2004.

  1. I read on the net today that the Nikon version of raw isn't really, and then
    the article got into a lot of stuff that was basically over my head as to
    the ramifications.

    So the question, is this just another pissing contest, or does the lack of a
    "real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
    considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
    earning a degree in engineering?

    Thanks
    Dane Brickman, Jul 20, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Dane Brickman

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    Dane Brickman <> wrote:

    > So the question, is this just another pissing contest, or does the lack of a
    > "real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
    > considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
    > earning a degree in engineering?


    The D70 offers only compressed RAW, which is described (by Nikon) as being
    visually lossless, but mathematically lossy. There is no indication of
    just what is being lost, but the basic idea is that you can't get back to
    the uncompressed RAW exactly from the compressed RAW, but Nikon says it
    doesn't matter. I can't see how it matters, having just shot well over
    a thousand pictures with a D70 in two weeks, all in RAW, and being rather
    extremely pleased with the results -- not to mention the quickness of the
    compressed RAW mode (you'll never even notice it writing out the images
    unless maybe you're a sports shooter or something).

    --
    Jeremy |
    Jeremy Nixon, Jul 20, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Dane Brickman

    Tom Scales Guest

    Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
    seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.

    Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression

    http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25214

    Tom
    "Jeremy Nixon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Dane Brickman <> wrote:
    >
    > > So the question, is this just another pissing contest, or does the lack

    of a
    > > "real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
    > > considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
    > > earning a degree in engineering?

    >
    > The D70 offers only compressed RAW, which is described (by Nikon) as being
    > visually lossless, but mathematically lossy. There is no indication of
    > just what is being lost, but the basic idea is that you can't get back to
    > the uncompressed RAW exactly from the compressed RAW, but Nikon says it
    > doesn't matter. I can't see how it matters, having just shot well over
    > a thousand pictures with a D70 in two weeks, all in RAW, and being rather
    > extremely pleased with the results -- not to mention the quickness of the
    > compressed RAW mode (you'll never even notice it writing out the images
    > unless maybe you're a sports shooter or something).
    >
    > --
    > Jeremy |
    Tom Scales, Jul 20, 2004
    #3
  4. Dane Brickman

    E. Magnuson Guest

    On 2004-07-20, Tom Scales <> wrote:
    > Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
    > seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.
    >
    > Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression



    Nikon is playing a semantic marketing game here: Yes, the compression
    algorithm itself is lossless. However before compression, the data is
    mapped from 12-bit linear to 9-bit log data. You cannot get the exact
    12-bit linear encoding back.

    When they used this compression scheme on the D100, Nikon called it
    "virtually lossless". No one has been able to find a technical reason
    for Nikon to change the description. Some Nikonians feel the
    compressed raw is inferior to the uncompressed raw.

    http://www.majid.info/mylos/weblog/2004/05/02-1.html

    --
    Erik
    E. Magnuson, Jul 20, 2004
    #4

  5. > Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:11:33 GMT
    > From: E. Magnuson <>
    > Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
    > Subject: Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
    >
    > On 2004-07-20, Tom Scales <> wrote:
    > > Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
    > > seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.
    > >
    > > Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression

    >
    >
    > Nikon is playing a semantic marketing game here: Yes, the compression
    > algorithm itself is lossless. However before compression, the data is
    > mapped from 12-bit linear to 9-bit log data. You cannot get the exact
    > 12-bit linear encoding back.
    >
    > When they used this compression scheme on the D100, Nikon called it
    > "virtually lossless". No one has been able to find a technical reason
    > for Nikon to change the description. Some Nikonians feel the
    > compressed raw is inferior to the uncompressed raw.
    >
    > http://www.majid.info/mylos/weblog/2004/05/02-1.html
    >
    > --
    > Erik
    >


    See also the discussion of RAW (and how to get "true raw") from a D70 at
    Christian Buils site:

    http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm

    Dr Peter R Hobson
    Peter R Hobson, Jul 20, 2004
    #5
  6. Dane Brickman

    Guest

    "Dane Brickman" <> wrote:

    > I read on the net today that the Nikon version of raw isn't really, and then
    > the article got into a lot of stuff that was basically over my head as to
    > the ramifications.


    I read on the net today that Dane Brickman is an intellectual lazy-ass
    that can't even bother himself to post an URL or other usable
    reference to what he merely _claims_ to have read about the Nikon
    D70's raw format.

    But whether he made it up or not, it turns out to be true anyways:

    http://astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm

    > So the question, is this just another pissing contest, or does the lack of a
    > "real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
    > considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
    > earning a degree in engineering?


    It is always amusing when the art-freaks or their breathless
    sycophants are reduced to anti-intellectual sneering at the engineers
    who design and build the hardware these self-same artistes use to
    create their "art" (cough!). Kinda like poking fun at farmers for
    growing your food, the city for providing clean water to drink and
    bathe in, and dogs that bite the hands of their owners...
    , Jul 20, 2004
    #6
  7. Dane Brickman

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    Tom Scales <> wrote:

    > Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
    > seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.
    >
    > Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression


    The compression is lossless, but the compressed NEFs aren't lossless with
    regard to the original RAW data.

    But the real point is whether it matters. In theory, it could indeed matter,
    since there has to be some highlight detail lost in the process; in practice,
    I haven't seen it matter yet. The compressed RAW files from the D70 seem to
    be very nice, and from my (quick) testing, have a usable dynamic range of
    about 7 stops (with some noise in the darkest one), which I think is just
    fine. So the bottom line is that I'm not planning to worry about it until
    I see it affecting pictures.

    --
    Jeremy |
    Jeremy Nixon, Jul 20, 2004
    #7
  8. Dane Brickman

    Helge Nareid Guest

    On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:55:53 +0100, Peter R Hobson
    <> wrote:

    [...snip...]
    >
    >See also the discussion of RAW (and how to get "true raw") from a D70 at
    >Christian Buils site:
    >
    >http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm
    >
    >Dr Peter R Hobson


    Thank you very much for that, Peter! Most informative.

    I've recently purchased a D70, and besides normal photography you can
    probably guess what other use I want to put it to - hence my interest
    in a true RAW format.

    --
    - Helge Nareid
    Nordmann i utlendighet, Aberdeen, Scotland
    For e-mail, please use my initials with the same domain as the posted address
    Helge Nareid, Jul 20, 2004
    #8
  9. Dane Brickman

    dslrlover Guest

    On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:27:59 -0400, "Dane Brickman" <>
    wrote:

    >I read on the net today that the Nikon version of raw isn't really, and then
    >the article got into a lot of stuff that was basically over my head as to
    >the ramifications.
    >
    >So the question, is this just another pissing contest, or does the lack of a
    >"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
    >considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
    >earning a degree in engineering?
    >
    >Thanks
    >


    In the D100 group on Yahoo there was a lengthy discussion of this very
    topic. One explanation proferred was that enough bits were kept on the
    D70 to generate 16 million colors and that this was the most that a
    human eye cam discern. Hence the claim "lossless".
    dslrlover, Jul 24, 2004
    #9
  10. dslrlover <> wrote in message news:<>...

    > >So the question, is this just another pissing contest, or does the lack of a
    > >"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
    > >considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
    > >earning a degree in engineering?
    > >
    > >Thanks

    >
    > In the D100 group on Yahoo there was a lengthy discussion of this very
    > topic. One explanation proferred was that enough bits were kept on the
    > D70 to generate 16 million colors and that this was the most that a
    > human eye cam discern. Hence the claim "lossless".


    256 shades per color channel is the most a human eye can distinguish??
    Think again. If you are happy in the slightest with Nikon RAW or the
    supplied software (or the ridiculously expensive full version) there
    is only one reason: you haven't taken the 2 minutes required to
    install and play with this...

    http://www.sigmaphoto.com/html/pages/camerasb_sd9_downloads_spp2.htm
    http://www.sigmaphoto.com/Images/sd9samples/Woman.X3F

    If you really do that, your D70 will meet ebay by sundown.
    Georgette Preddy, Jul 24, 2004
    #10
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. IpastBecauseiamSmarterthanallofyoucombinedsochewon

    70-296 Ain't That Bad

    IpastBecauseiamSmarterthanallofyoucombinedsochewon, Jan 8, 2004, in forum: MCSE
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    429
    IpastBecauseiamSmarterthanallofyoucombinedsochewon
    Jan 8, 2004
  2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Frisbee=AE?=
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    390
  3. Daniel

    RANDRECO.EXE = Still there & ain't leaving!

    Daniel, Dec 21, 2004, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    20
    Views:
    1,133
    Gary G. Taylor
    Dec 24, 2004
  4. Bob Jones

    Yahoo briefcase ain't working

    Bob Jones, May 8, 2005, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    1,817
    mkg42_tm
    May 26, 2005
  5. Eddie

    My mices ain't working right.............

    Eddie, Jun 3, 2005, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    504
Loading...

Share This Page