D70 and Adobe RGB color space

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by larrylook, Jan 16, 2005.

  1. larrylook

    larrylook Guest

    Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using the pics on
    the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?
    larrylook, Jan 16, 2005
    #1
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  2. larrylook

    C J Campbell Guest

    "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    news:D...
    > Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using the pics

    on
    > the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?


    There are no downsides even if you are shooting for the web. SRGB is
    designed for VGA standard monitors. You can't even buy one of these any
    more. The monitors were terrible and ARGB looks no worse on them than SRGB
    does. If someone is so cheap as to use a ten year old monitor, he obviously
    does not care how anything looks.
    C J Campbell, Jan 16, 2005
    #2
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  3. larrylook

    Tom Ellliott Guest

    Gee whiz, CJ,
    I sorta agree abut the cheapness part, but then if one wants to be PERFECT,
    then it would not be unreasonable to spend a few thousand dollars on a
    graphics monitor for photography work. Thus there is a SLIGHT delema = How
    to get the most bang for the buck. One way is to calibrate your hardware -
    monitor, printer, scanner/film or flatbed with adaptor your service bureau.
    For me it was: get a calibration file from my service breau (along with a
    glossy 11x14 print done in a chemical/wet lab and a matt print too). Then
    get the monitor, scanner, printer, printer paper all to agree and then give
    that file I make from the calibration file and send it to my service breau
    and have them make a color wet print for me. Keep doing that untill the file
    I make and give them to print look alike.
    I did just that very procedure. It took awhile, a few prints/$$ but it was
    worth it.
    I have a file that I get great 5x7 B&W prints from on matt and glossy wet
    paper. Each time the client orders prints I have one extra made and date the
    back. I have placed an order about six times from that file. When I lay out
    the six extra prints, you cannot tell the difference between them. Which was
    first and which was last. Only by the date on the back can you tell which
    one was made first!
    A great illustration on the advantages of using all tools to thier maximum.
    I shot in color negative, transferred to a Kodak Pro Photo CD scan, had 4x6
    color prints made. Did all manipulations in color. Converted to a B&W file
    and had the service breau make the B&W print.
    I could have had a B&W negative made and did the B&W prints myself, but why?
    Their B&W prints were just as good as my prints, I could then spend that
    "darkroom" time shooting photos, and do a modest markup on the 5x7s still
    make money, and everyone was a happy camper.
    Yours,
    Tom Elliott
    http://www.tom-elliott-photography.com

    "C J Campbell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    > news:D...
    > > Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using the

    pics
    > on
    > > the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?

    >
    > There are no downsides even if you are shooting for the web. SRGB is
    > designed for VGA standard monitors. You can't even buy one of these any
    > more. The monitors were terrible and ARGB looks no worse on them than SRGB
    > does. If someone is so cheap as to use a ten year old monitor, he

    obviously
    > does not care how anything looks.
    >
    >
    Tom Ellliott, Jan 16, 2005
    #3
  4. larrylook

    GTO Guest

    Do you shoot in RAW or JPEG? If you shoot in RAW (compressed NEF on the
    D70), it does not matter since you can easily convert from one to the other
    color space using Nikon Capture 4.1.3. By default, I am using:

    File format: NEF (with basic JPEG)
    White Balance: A
    Optimizing Image: Custom
    Sharpening: None
    Tone: Low contrast
    Color Mode: Mode II (Adobe RGB)
    Saturation: Normal
    Hue: Normal

    Afterwards, I can tweak it using Nikon Capture.

    Gregor

    "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    news:D...
    > Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using the pics
    > on
    > the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?
    >
    >
    GTO, Jan 16, 2005
    #4
  5. larrylook

    hyperion Guest

    GTO wrote:

    > Do you shoot in RAW or JPEG? If you shoot in RAW (compressed NEF on the
    > D70), it does not matter since you can easily convert from one to the
    > other color space using Nikon Capture 4.1.3. By default, I am using:
    >
    > File format: NEF (with basic JPEG)
    > White Balance: A
    > Optimizing Image: Custom
    > Sharpening: None
    > Tone: Low contrast
    > Color Mode: Mode II (Adobe RGB)
    > Saturation: Normal
    > Hue: Normal


    Why do you use "Low contrast" ?
    (Just curious, no criticism!)
    --
    Regards,
    Hyperion
    hyperion, Jan 16, 2005
    #5
  6. larrylook

    Ed Ruf Guest

    On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:51:41 +0100, in rec.photo.digital hyperion
    <> wrote:

    >GTO wrote:
    >
    >> Do you shoot in RAW or JPEG? If you shoot in RAW (compressed NEF on the
    >> D70), it does not matter since you can easily convert from one to the
    >> other color space using Nikon Capture 4.1.3. By default, I am using:
    >>
    >> File format: NEF (with basic JPEG)
    >> White Balance: A
    >> Optimizing Image: Custom
    >> Sharpening: None
    >> Tone: Low contrast
    >> Color Mode: Mode II (Adobe RGB)
    >> Saturation: Normal
    >> Hue: Normal

    >
    >Why do you use "Low contrast" ?
    >(Just curious, no criticism!)


    Most likely to lessen the probability of blown highlights.
    ----------
    Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ()
    See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
    Ed Ruf, Jan 16, 2005
    #6
  7. larrylook

    larrylook Guest

    "GTO" <> wrote in message
    news:UnpGd.10955$...
    > Do you shoot in RAW or JPEG? If you shoot in RAW (compressed NEF on the
    > D70), it does not matter since you can easily convert from one to the

    other
    > color space using Nikon Capture 4.1.3. By default, I am using:
    >
    > File format: NEF (with basic JPEG)
    > White Balance: A
    > Optimizing Image: Custom
    > Sharpening: None
    > Tone: Low contrast
    > Color Mode: Mode II (Adobe RGB)
    > Saturation: Normal
    > Hue: Normal
    >
    > Afterwards, I can tweak it using Nikon Capture.
    >
    > Gregor
    >
    > "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    > news:D...
    > > Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using the

    pics
    > > on
    > > the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?


    Just curious, why low contrast? Were your pics too high in contrast? I
    shoot half fine lg jpegs and half raw plus basic. Does anyone know if pse3
    converts argb to srgb (with raw files). I don't own capture. How come
    default for camera is sRGB, if Adobe RGB is superior? I've read elsewhere
    sRGB is best for internet use. See this:
    http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-880.html
    larrylook, Jan 16, 2005
    #7
  8. larrylook

    Ray Paseur Guest

    The gamut, or color space of your monitors and printers are not likely to
    display colors that are outside of sRGB. Some of my colleagues just set up
    an sRGB workflow and ignore aRGB. There's a good article here (free,
    registration):

    http://www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/wc025.html
    Ray Paseur, Jan 16, 2005
    #8
  9. larrylook

    Markeau Guest

    This is a good site to compare color gamuts of various
    profiles/devices:
    http://www.iccview.de/index_eng.htm

    Try comparing aRGB and sRGB with your own monitor and printer profiles
    and you will see the colors that can/cannot be displayed by the
    device(s).
    Markeau, Jan 16, 2005
    #9
  10. larrylook

    paul Guest

    larrylook wrote:

    > Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using the pics on
    > the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?



    I think the difference is going to be noticeable when applying curves
    and adjustments you can emphasize more if there is more to start with,
    like RAW has more info to work with. I don't believe the eye can detect
    such subtle differences; a computer monitor cannot. But after adjusting,
    you might be able to make that hidden information visible.

    I don't know if it's meaningful or more like just plain error but it's
    easy to see a decrease in saturation if you open an aRGB photo in PS &
    assign the incorrect sRGB colorspace. If you open as aRGB photoshop
    detects it, then if you convert to sRGB there is no visible difference
    to my eyes but I suspect if you apply curves to those there will be a
    difference once the subtle difference is made available.

    The disadvantage is simply the nuisance of remembering to convert for
    printing at home on a normal inkjet which will show that desaturation.
    And converting for web & email.

    This is my non-professional understanding. Corrections welcome.
    paul, Jan 16, 2005
    #10
  11. larrylook

    larrylook Guest

    "paul" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > larrylook wrote:
    >
    > > Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using the

    pics on
    > > the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?

    >
    >
    > I think the difference is going to be noticeable when applying curves
    > and adjustments you can emphasize more if there is more to start with,
    > like RAW has more info to work with. I don't believe the eye can detect
    > such subtle differences; a computer monitor cannot. But after adjusting,
    > you might be able to make that hidden information visible.
    >
    > I don't know if it's meaningful or more like just plain error but it's
    > easy to see a decrease in saturation if you open an aRGB photo in PS &
    > assign the incorrect sRGB colorspace. If you open as aRGB photoshop
    > detects it, then if you convert to sRGB there is no visible difference
    > to my eyes but I suspect if you apply curves to those there will be a
    > difference once the subtle difference is made available.
    >
    > The disadvantage is simply the nuisance of remembering to convert for
    > printing at home on a normal inkjet which will show that desaturation.
    > And converting for web & email.


    You are saying, if I understand you, that if I set the D70 to Adobe RGB,
    shoot jpegs and want to print to my Canon i9900, you'd advise me to convert
    to sRGB first? If so, I'll just shoot in sRBG, since I really don't want
    that step. Do I understand you correct?

    >
    > This is my non-professional understanding. Corrections welcome.
    larrylook, Jan 16, 2005
    #11
  12. larrylook

    larrylook Guest

    "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "paul" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > larrylook wrote:
    > >
    > > > Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using the

    > pics on
    > > > the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?

    > >
    > >
    > > I think the difference is going to be noticeable when applying curves
    > > and adjustments you can emphasize more if there is more to start with,
    > > like RAW has more info to work with. I don't believe the eye can detect
    > > such subtle differences; a computer monitor cannot. But after adjusting,
    > > you might be able to make that hidden information visible.
    > >
    > > I don't know if it's meaningful or more like just plain error but it's
    > > easy to see a decrease in saturation if you open an aRGB photo in PS &
    > > assign the incorrect sRGB colorspace. If you open as aRGB photoshop
    > > detects it, then if you convert to sRGB there is no visible difference
    > > to my eyes but I suspect if you apply curves to those there will be a
    > > difference once the subtle difference is made available.
    > >
    > > The disadvantage is simply the nuisance of remembering to convert for
    > > printing at home on a normal inkjet which will show that desaturation.
    > > And converting for web & email.

    >
    > You are saying, if I understand you, that if I set the D70 to Adobe RGB,
    > shoot jpegs and want to print to my Canon i9900, you'd advise me to

    convert
    > to sRGB first? If so, I'll just shoot in sRBG, since I really don't want
    > that step. Do I understand you correct?


    This source seems to lead me to shoot in aRGB with D70 if using i9900
    printer (not publishing to web):
    http://www.a-digital-eye.net/canon_i9900.html
    What do you folks make of this? I don't want to set camera to aRGB if I
    need to convert to sRGB prior to printing. Too much work. I'd like to hear
    any opinions.


    >
    > >
    > > This is my non-professional understanding. Corrections welcome.

    >
    >
    larrylook, Jan 16, 2005
    #12
  13. larrylook

    adm Guest

    "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >> "paul" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >> > larrylook wrote:
    >> >
    >> > > Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using the

    >> pics on
    >> > > the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > I think the difference is going to be noticeable when applying curves
    >> > and adjustments you can emphasize more if there is more to start with,
    >> > like RAW has more info to work with. I don't believe the eye can detect
    >> > such subtle differences; a computer monitor cannot. But after
    >> > adjusting,
    >> > you might be able to make that hidden information visible.
    >> >
    >> > I don't know if it's meaningful or more like just plain error but it's
    >> > easy to see a decrease in saturation if you open an aRGB photo in PS &
    >> > assign the incorrect sRGB colorspace. If you open as aRGB photoshop
    >> > detects it, then if you convert to sRGB there is no visible difference
    >> > to my eyes but I suspect if you apply curves to those there will be a
    >> > difference once the subtle difference is made available.
    >> >
    >> > The disadvantage is simply the nuisance of remembering to convert for
    >> > printing at home on a normal inkjet which will show that desaturation.
    >> > And converting for web & email.

    >>
    >> You are saying, if I understand you, that if I set the D70 to Adobe RGB,
    >> shoot jpegs and want to print to my Canon i9900, you'd advise me to

    > convert
    >> to sRGB first? If so, I'll just shoot in sRBG, since I really don't want
    >> that step. Do I understand you correct?

    >
    > This source seems to lead me to shoot in aRGB with D70 if using i9900
    > printer (not publishing to web):
    > http://www.a-digital-eye.net/canon_i9900.html
    > What do you folks make of this? I don't want to set camera to aRGB if I
    > need to convert to sRGB prior to printing. Too much work. I'd like to
    > hear
    > any opinions.


    Can't you just set the camera, Photoshop/(insert your choice here) and the
    printer ALL to AdobeRGB and just be done with it ?

    Short of calibrating your set up properly, I'd imagine it;s best just to set
    everything to the same colour space that way.
    adm, Jan 16, 2005
    #13
  14. larrylook

    Crownfield Guest

    larrylook wrote:
    >
    > This source seems to lead me to shoot in aRGB with D70 if using i9900
    > printer (not publishing to web):
    > http://www.a-digital-eye.net/canon_i9900.html
    > What do you folks make of this? I don't want to set camera to aRGB if I
    > need to convert to sRGB prior to printing. Too much work.


    set it, shoot a shot or two, print it.
    let us know how it worked.
    reset it if it did not work.
    Crownfield, Jan 16, 2005
    #14
  15. larrylook

    larrylook Guest

    "Crownfield" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > larrylook wrote:
    > >
    > > This source seems to lead me to shoot in aRGB with D70 if using i9900
    > > printer (not publishing to web):
    > > http://www.a-digital-eye.net/canon_i9900.html
    > > What do you folks make of this? I don't want to set camera to aRGB if

    I
    > > need to convert to sRGB prior to printing. Too much work.

    >
    > set it, shoot a shot or two, print it.
    > let us know how it worked.
    > reset it if it did not work.


    Not sure how to set printer to adobe RGB, but I'll keep looking.
    larrylook, Jan 16, 2005
    #15
  16. larrylook

    larrylook Guest

    "adm" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >
    > > "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >>
    > >> "paul" <> wrote in message
    > >> news:...
    > >> > larrylook wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> > > Any downsides of shooting in Adobe RGB with D70 if I'm not using

    the
    > >> pics on
    > >> > > the web? Will I notice any improvement going from srgb to argb?
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > I think the difference is going to be noticeable when applying curves
    > >> > and adjustments you can emphasize more if there is more to start

    with,
    > >> > like RAW has more info to work with. I don't believe the eye can

    detect
    > >> > such subtle differences; a computer monitor cannot. But after
    > >> > adjusting,
    > >> > you might be able to make that hidden information visible.
    > >> >
    > >> > I don't know if it's meaningful or more like just plain error but

    it's
    > >> > easy to see a decrease in saturation if you open an aRGB photo in PS

    &
    > >> > assign the incorrect sRGB colorspace. If you open as aRGB photoshop
    > >> > detects it, then if you convert to sRGB there is no visible

    difference
    > >> > to my eyes but I suspect if you apply curves to those there will be a
    > >> > difference once the subtle difference is made available.
    > >> >
    > >> > The disadvantage is simply the nuisance of remembering to convert for
    > >> > printing at home on a normal inkjet which will show that

    desaturation.
    > >> > And converting for web & email.
    > >>
    > >> You are saying, if I understand you, that if I set the D70 to Adobe

    RGB,
    > >> shoot jpegs and want to print to my Canon i9900, you'd advise me to

    > > convert
    > >> to sRGB first? If so, I'll just shoot in sRBG, since I really don't

    want
    > >> that step. Do I understand you correct?

    > >
    > > This source seems to lead me to shoot in aRGB with D70 if using i9900
    > > printer (not publishing to web):
    > > http://www.a-digital-eye.net/canon_i9900.html
    > > What do you folks make of this? I don't want to set camera to aRGB if

    I
    > > need to convert to sRGB prior to printing. Too much work. I'd like to
    > > hear
    > > any opinions.

    >
    > Can't you just set the camera, Photoshop/(insert your choice here) and the
    > printer ALL to AdobeRGB and just be done with it ?


    Not sure how to set printer to Adobe RGB. I went to properties and it's set
    for color management automatic (recommended) so I'll leave it there. I
    don't see aRGB as a selection.


    >
    > Short of calibrating your set up properly, I'd imagine it;s best just to

    set
    > everything to the same colour space that way.
    >
    >
    larrylook, Jan 16, 2005
    #16
  17. larrylook

    Crownfield Guest

    larrylook wrote:
    >
    > "Crownfield" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > larrylook wrote:
    > > >
    > > > This source seems to lead me to shoot in aRGB with D70 if using i9900
    > > > printer (not publishing to web):
    > > > http://www.a-digital-eye.net/canon_i9900.html
    > > > What do you folks make of this? I don't want to set camera to aRGB if

    > I
    > > > need to convert to sRGB prior to printing. Too much work.

    > >
    > > set it, shoot a shot or two, print it.
    > > let us know how it worked.
    > > reset it if it did not work.

    >
    > Not sure how to set printer to adobe RGB, but I'll keep looking.


    we were discussing the camera setting, i thought.
    I did not consider changing the printer.
    set the camera to aRGB?
    Crownfield, Jan 16, 2005
    #17
  18. larrylook

    Markeau Guest

    I have a i9900 and have researched a lot about color management. Even
    though I only have a Canon s400 that tags exif as sRGB I have been
    getting good results converting to and using aRGB as the work space in
    PS CS.

    Don't set the i9900 printer driver to ICM, instead turn it off and
    disable everything else, and then in PS Print Preview set Print Space
    > Profile to the Canon paper you will be printing on (ie, Canon i9900

    PR1). There are reports that setting ICM to ON is basically using
    sRGB on the i9900. I cannot conform this, but even though I was
    specifying the correct matte paper profile in the i9900 driver with
    ICM ON, and PS set to Printer Color Mgmt, I was getting a horrible
    yellow cast which seems to have gone away after setting ICM OFF and PS
    to the Canon matte paper (MP1) profile.

    This (large download) pdf has some good info:
    http://www.qualiteitems.com/canon.pdf

    And, if you go to the link I posted earlier, you can upload the Canon
    i9900 paper profiles and see how they compare to both aRGB and sRGB.
    You will see that the i9900 can print some colors outside even the
    aRGB color space - but yes most of the colors are within both aRGB as
    well as sRGB.
    Markeau, Jan 16, 2005
    #18
  19. larrylook

    larrylook Guest

    "Crownfield" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > larrylook wrote:
    > >
    > > "Crownfield" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > larrylook wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > This source seems to lead me to shoot in aRGB with D70 if using

    i9900
    > > > > printer (not publishing to web):
    > > > > http://www.a-digital-eye.net/canon_i9900.html
    > > > > What do you folks make of this? I don't want to set camera to aRGB

    if
    > > I
    > > > > need to convert to sRGB prior to printing. Too much work.
    > > >
    > > > set it, shoot a shot or two, print it.
    > > > let us know how it worked.
    > > > reset it if it did not work.

    > >
    > > Not sure how to set printer to adobe RGB, but I'll keep looking.

    >
    > we were discussing the camera setting, i thought.
    > I did not consider changing the printer.
    > set the camera to aRGB?


    I thought maybe I needed to, because someone suggested I convert to sRGB
    before printing. I'll give it a try soon.
    larrylook, Jan 16, 2005
    #19
  20. larrylook

    adm Guest

    "larrylook" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "adm" <> wrote in message
    > news:...


    >>
    >> Can't you just set the camera, Photoshop/(insert your choice here) and
    >> the
    >> printer ALL to AdobeRGB and just be done with it ?

    >
    > Not sure how to set printer to Adobe RGB. I went to properties and it's
    > set
    > for color management automatic (recommended) so I'll leave it there. I
    > don't see aRGB as a selection.
    >


    If I go to the properties page for my printer (Epson Photo 925 thingy...)
    and select the colour mangement tab, I have options to choose what profile
    to use. I did originally have to select "manual" to get these options
    though.

    The good thing is that I can have both the PC that the printer is connected
    to, and the Mac downstairs that shares it both set the printer to different
    profiles on the fly. So if I want to use sRGB or AppleRGB, I just select the
    relevant profile....


    >
    >>
    >> Short of calibrating your set up properly, I'd imagine it;s best just to

    > set
    >> everything to the same colour space that way.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    adm, Jan 16, 2005
    #20
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