Could flash memory replace DVD/Hard Drives if this pans out?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. RichA

    David Taylor Guest

    On 06/12/2012 23:14, Eric Stevens wrote:
    []
    > I have been leaving my computer on all the time ever since nospam
    > argued that modern power management meant that turning a computer off
    > saved little power. Yet I still get two or three reboots a week. It's
    > all these damned automatic updates which require the computer be
    > rebooted.


    Security updates once a month is enough for most people. Personally, I
    have my PC set to "Notify only" rather than automatically install.
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
     
    David Taylor, Dec 7, 2012
    #41
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  2. RichA

    David Taylor Guest

    On 07/12/2012 09:02, Eric Stevens wrote:
    []
    > I would still want to install them, in which case I would still have
    > to reboot.


    Yes, but you don't have to install the security updates the instant they
    arrive, and it's once a month not "two or three [times] a week" as you
    wrote. Reboot takes what? A couple of minutes per month? 0.005% of
    the time?

    Here, when I have accidentally left a new PC on automatic reboot, the
    installation and reboot appear to have happened around three o'clock in
    the morning, so zero lost time for me. Perhaps a point in favour of
    automatic installation? On the other hand, I prefer to wait until I see
    reports from a couple of Web sites I trust about the possible unintended
    side-effects of the updates before blindly applying all of them! It's
    been a while since that was an issue, though.
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
     
    David Taylor, Dec 7, 2012
    #42
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  3. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <k9s6no$7qf$>, David Taylor
    <> wrote:

    > > it's more than ten milliseconds. the difference is huge.
    > >
    > > the point is that the overall user experience is much nicer. it's like
    > > driving a sports car versus a family sedan, even if you're driving on a
    > > city street at 30 mph.
    > >
    > > also, having ssd means the cpu & gpu doesn't need to be as fast for
    > > similar performance, which means the product can be cheaper, run cooler
    > > and have longer battery life.

    >
    > It depends on what you are doing. If you are encoding videos, for
    > example, CPU/GPU power is by far the most important factor.


    most people don't encode video, especially on a lightweight laptop.

    those that do encode video more than on occasion will have the video
    assets on a hard drive because of their size and a high end machine
    suitable for encoding.

    > There is no
    > single "correct" answer - each use needs to be evaluated on its own.


    true but ssd is replacing hard drives for most use cases, particularly
    laptops, but there are always going to be edge cases where it's not the
    best choice.
     
    nospam, Dec 7, 2012
    #43
  4. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <k9s71p$93k$>, David Taylor
    <> wrote:

    > > the number of cycles for ssd is *very* high.
    > >
    > > some ssds come with *ten* year warranties, which is far more than any
    > > hard drive. in fact, hard drive makers *reduced* their warranty period,
    > > and 1 year is now typical.
    > >
    > > in other words, ssd is a much better choice for disk intensive
    > > operations. you'll see a significant benefit since seek time is zero
    > > and longetivity is a non-issue. you'll probably replace the computer
    > > before the ssd wears out.

    >
    > For disk operations where the majority of operations are /read/, yes.
    > But the number of write cycles (including erase etc.) is limited, so
    > SSDs may not be the best choice where a high write throughput is
    > required. Choose your device carefully.


    hard drives are also limited, and for them, you don't even need to read
    or write. the motor and bearings wear out (or just fail). nothing lasts
    forever.

    as i said, some ssds have a ten year warranty. that's *well* beyond the
    expected lifetime of a typical hard drive.
     
    nospam, Dec 7, 2012
    #44
  5. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <k9s79r$ab2$>, David Taylor
    <> wrote:

    > > I had no choice. If I wanted a MacBook Pro with a Retina display, the
    > > choice was between a 128 GB SSD or a 256 GB SSD.
    > >
    > > I chose the former. Actually, I chose it twice because I picked up my
    > > second yesterday. I now have a 15" and a 13". If I can manage with
    > > the 13" I will be selling the larger one.
    > >
    > > It will be interesting to see how the 128 GB SSD lasts. I am backing
    > > up all documents every evening to cloud storage and two HDDs.

    >
    > Yes, I have the same issue with the iPad - SSD or nothing.


    you wouldn't want a hard drive in an ipad. it would be thicker, noisier
    and a lot less reliable.

    > On the other
    > hand, I'm not editing videos on the iPad, or doing anything else which
    > requires a lot of disk write operations, so I'm hoping it will be OK.


    it will be fine. flash memory is not as fragile as you think it is.

    > I backup to iTunes on one PC from time to time, the applications are
    > mostly stored on the stores I bought them from and the settings
    > reasonable easily recoverable. There are very few critical documents
    > created by me on the iPad which aren't stored elsewhere.


    it's important to have backups whether it's flash or a hard drive, and
    more than just one.
     
    nospam, Dec 7, 2012
    #45
  6. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:07:31 PM UTC, Alfred Molon wrote:
    > In article <k9pl0o$13n$>, David Taylor says...
    >
    > > Yes, maxing out the memory is usually the best way to improve speed on a

    >
    > > PC, although /if/ you are doing something which is very disk I/O

    >
    > > intensive getting a faster disk may be the better choice.

    >
    >
    >
    > The problem with SSDs is that they are not so suitable for disk I/O
    >
    > intensive operations due to the wear on the memory cells. It's better
    >
    > having lots of RAM, so that page swapping is minimised.


    The modern SSDs don;t have quite the sme problem and they are getting better every year, there''s also softtwate that can reduce this 'wear'.

    >
    > --
    >
    >
    >
    > Alfred Molon
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Olympus E-series DSLRs and micro 4/3 forum at
    >
    > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    >
    > http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
     
    Whisky-dave, Dec 7, 2012
    #46
  7. David Taylor <> wrote:

    >On 06/12/2012 23:36, Anthony Polson wrote:
    >[]
    >> I had no choice. If I wanted a MacBook Pro with a Retina display, the
    >> choice was between a 128 GB SSD or a 256 GB SSD.
    >>
    >> I chose the former. Actually, I chose it twice because I picked up my
    >> second yesterday. I now have a 15" and a 13". If I can manage with
    >> the 13" I will be selling the larger one.
    >>
    >> It will be interesting to see how the 128 GB SSD lasts. I am backing
    >> up all documents every evening to cloud storage and two HDDs.

    >
    >Yes, I have the same issue with the iPad - SSD or nothing. On the other
    >hand, I'm not editing videos on the iPad, or doing anything else which
    >requires a lot of disk write operations, so I'm hoping it will be OK.



    I suppose it is a good reason to avoid video. Not that I need one. I
    hate shooting it and am strongly resisting pressure to teach it. I
    don't want to give up teaching but I think I would have to if forced
    to teach videography.


    >I backup to iTunes on one PC from time to time, the applications are
    >mostly stored on the stores I bought them from and the settings
    >reasonable easily recoverable. There are very few critical documents
    >created by me on the iPad which aren't stored elsewhere.



    Until we can have more confidence in SSDs' reliability, a cautious
    approach is probably wise. I greatly value the advice you gave me in
    our previous discussion about SSDs and hope I have taken it fully into
    account when establishing my way of working with applications and
    documents on my SSD-equipped Macs.

    Thank you! :)

    Apple's iCloud makes backing up easy, which is a very good thing;
    using SSDs makes systematic backing up not just desirable, but
    essential.
     
    Anthony Polson, Dec 7, 2012
    #47
  8. David Taylor <> wrote:
    >Here, when I have accidentally left a new PC on automatic reboot, the
    >installation and reboot appear to have happened around three o'clock in
    >the morning, so zero lost time for me. Perhaps a point in favour of
    >automatic installation? On the other hand, I prefer to wait until I see
    >reports from a couple of Web sites I trust about the possible unintended
    >side-effects of the updates before blindly applying all of them! It's
    >been a while since that was an issue, though.



    The one that really annoys me is Adobe Flash. Updates seem to come in
    clusters over a few days with a longer gap to the next cluster.

    I guess that the second and subsequent updates in each cluster are to
    fix bugs in the first. The bugs seem to be many and Flash has to be
    the least stable piece of code that I have ever used.
     
    Anthony Polson, Dec 7, 2012
    #48
  9. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Friday, December 7, 2012 1:39:25 PM UTC, Anthony Polson wrote:
    > David Taylor <> wrote:
    >
    > >Here, when I have accidentally left a new PC on automatic reboot, the

    >
    > >installation and reboot appear to have happened around three o'clock in

    >
    > >the morning, so zero lost time for me. Perhaps a point in favour of

    >
    > >automatic installation? On the other hand, I prefer to wait until I see

    >
    > >reports from a couple of Web sites I trust about the possible unintended

    >
    > >side-effects of the updates before blindly applying all of them! It's

    >
    > >been a while since that was an issue, though.

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > The one that really annoys me is Adobe Flash. Updates seem to come in
    >
    > clusters over a few days with a longer gap to the next cluster.
    >
    >
    >
    > I guess that the second and subsequent updates in each cluster are to
    >
    > fix bugs in the first. The bugs seem to be many and Flash has to be
    >
    > the least stable piece of code that I have ever used.


    Which is why Apple didn't want it on their 'post PC devices'.
     
    Whisky-dave, Dec 7, 2012
    #49
  10. RichA

    DanP Guest

    On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 06:47:58 -0500, nospam wrote:

    > In article <k9s79r$ab2$>, David Taylor
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> > I had no choice. If I wanted a MacBook Pro with a Retina display,
    >> > the choice was between a 128 GB SSD or a 256 GB SSD.
    >> >
    >> > I chose the former. Actually, I chose it twice because I picked up
    >> > my second yesterday. I now have a 15" and a 13". If I can manage
    >> > with the 13" I will be selling the larger one.
    >> >
    >> > It will be interesting to see how the 128 GB SSD lasts. I am backing
    >> > up all documents every evening to cloud storage and two HDDs.

    >>
    >> Yes, I have the same issue with the iPad - SSD or nothing.

    >
    > you wouldn't want a hard drive in an ipad. it would be thicker, noisier
    > and a lot less reliable.


    And less battery life.

    DanP
     
    DanP, Dec 7, 2012
    #50
  11. RichA

    David Taylor Guest

    On 07/12/2012 11:47, nospam wrote:
    []
    > most people don't encode video, especially on a lightweight laptop.
    >
    > those that do encode video more than on occasion will have the video
    > assets on a hard drive because of their size and a high end machine
    > suitable for encoding.
    >
    >> There is no
    >> single "correct" answer - each use needs to be evaluated on its own.

    >
    > true but ssd is replacing hard drives for most use cases, particularly
    > laptops, but there are always going to be edge cases where it's not the
    > best choice.


    Who said the discussion was restricted to "lightweight laptops"?

    Portable devices, but not desktops. The point of the original question
    whether larger HDs could be replaced if the write-cycle limit was
    raised. At the moment, cost alone would prevent this (on 1 .. 3 TB disks).
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
     
    David Taylor, Dec 7, 2012
    #51
  12. RichA

    David Taylor Guest

    On 07/12/2012 13:39, Anthony Polson wrote:
    []
    > The one that really annoys me is Adobe Flash. Updates seem to come in
    > clusters over a few days with a longer gap to the next cluster.
    >
    > I guess that the second and subsequent updates in each cluster are to
    > fix bugs in the first. The bugs seem to be many and Flash has to be
    > the least stable piece of code that I have ever used.


    You will be pleased that HTML5 is gradually replacing Flash, then!
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
     
    David Taylor, Dec 7, 2012
    #52
  13. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <k9ta9o$k6d$>, David Taylor
    <> wrote:

    > > most people don't encode video, especially on a lightweight laptop.
    > >
    > > those that do encode video more than on occasion will have the video
    > > assets on a hard drive because of their size and a high end machine
    > > suitable for encoding.
    > >
    > >> There is no
    > >> single "correct" answer - each use needs to be evaluated on its own.

    > >
    > > true but ssd is replacing hard drives for most use cases, particularly
    > > laptops, but there are always going to be edge cases where it's not the
    > > best choice.

    >
    > Who said the discussion was restricted to "lightweight laptops"?


    those are the devices where flash has pretty much replaced hard drives,
    namely ultrabooks, plus tablets of course.

    for 'normal' laptops, ssd is happening but it's not as widespread.

    > Portable devices, but not desktops. The point of the original question
    > whether larger HDs could be replaced if the write-cycle limit was
    > raised. At the moment, cost alone would prevent this (on 1 .. 3 TB disks).


    1-3 tb disks is not suitable for replacing with ssd, yet.
     
    nospam, Dec 7, 2012
    #53
  14. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Alfred
    Molon <> wrote:

    > > You will be pleased that HTML5 is gradually replacing Flash, then!

    >
    > Still a loooong way to go. Maybe by 2025.


    more like 2015, even sooner.

    flash on mobile is already dead.
     
    nospam, Dec 7, 2012
    #54
  15. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    | > > You will be pleased that HTML5 is gradually replacing Flash, then!
    | >
    | > Still a loooong way to go. Maybe by 2025.
    |
    | more like 2015, even sooner.
    |
    | flash on mobile is already dead.

    You shouldn't believe things just because Apple
    marketing tells you so. They may say that CDs/DVDs
    are dead, that flash storage is the cat's pajamas, and
    that Adobe Flash is passe, but that doesn't make it so.
    It just means that more Apple devotees, already paying
    too much for their hardware, will be paying even more
    for USB DVD drives and no choice about storage... all
    the while praising the wisdom of Lord Jobs.

    HTML 5 is little more than a marketing label for overused
    javascript. With improvements in script and in browsers,
    script is being used for more things. But so far Flash is
    still common. Just look at Anthony Polson's post. He hates
    Flash and thinks it's buggy. Indeed, it's one of the riskiest
    things to run online. But does he remove it? No. Most people
    would never even imagine going without Flash. It's too
    much a part of too many things that they do. In fact, it's
    still not unusual to find entire websites that are actually
    just SWF files.
     
    Mayayana, Dec 7, 2012
    #55
  16. RichA

    DanP Guest

    On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 16:30:07 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

    > | > > You will be pleased that HTML5 is gradually replacing Flash, then!
    > | >
    > | > Still a loooong way to go. Maybe by 2025.
    > |
    > | more like 2015, even sooner.
    > |
    > | flash on mobile is already dead.
    >
    > You shouldn't believe things just because Apple
    > marketing tells you so. They may say that CDs/DVDs are dead, that flash
    > storage is the cat's pajamas, and that Adobe Flash is passe, but that
    > doesn't make it so.
    > It just means that more Apple devotees, already paying too much for
    > their hardware, will be paying even more for USB DVD drives and no
    > choice about storage... all the while praising the wisdom of Lord Jobs.
    >
    > HTML 5 is little more than a marketing label for overused
    > javascript. With improvements in script and in browsers,
    > script is being used for more things. But so far Flash is still common.
    > Just look at Anthony Polson's post. He hates Flash and thinks it's
    > buggy. Indeed, it's one of the riskiest things to run online. But does
    > he remove it? No. Most people would never even imagine going without
    > Flash. It's too much a part of too many things that they do. In fact,
    > it's still not unusual to find entire websites that are actually just
    > SWF files.


    I'm with Apple and Anthony Polson on this, Flash needs to be killed.
    It hogs the CPU, poses security risks and the software update rate is
    ridiculous.

    To support my claim about security risk: http://thenextweb.com/
    microsoft/2012/11/02/microsofts-security-team-is-killing-it-not-one-
    product-on-kasperskys-top-10-vulnerabilities-list/

    Apple and Google are eager to see Flash gone, it will happen soon.


    DanP
     
    DanP, Dec 7, 2012
    #56
  17. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <k9tn3f$6cb$>, Mayayana
    <> wrote:

    > | > > You will be pleased that HTML5 is gradually replacing Flash, then!
    > | >
    > | > Still a loooong way to go. Maybe by 2025.
    > |
    > | more like 2015, even sooner.
    > |
    > | flash on mobile is already dead.
    >
    > You shouldn't believe things just because Apple
    > marketing tells you so.


    they didn't. apple didn't tell me anything. take a look at what is
    happening in the industry, for a change. you are *so* out of touch.

    adobe themselves announced mobile flash is dead, and that was nearly a
    *year* ago.

    flash is gone from android jelly bean and no longer can be installed on
    earlier versions unless the user already had it installed. chrome on
    android doesn't support flash either.

    even on android devices that did support flash (not all of them did),
    it pretty much sucked.

    performance was usually very poor. frame rates were very choppy and it
    was a huge battery hog. not only that but sites built for flash are not
    designed for touch and often don't even work properly (or at all) on
    mobile. html5 is a big step forward.

    flash on the desktop continues for now, but its days are also numbered.

    most sites these days offer an html5 version when there is no flash
    installed, which means the lack of flash is a non-issue. many sites
    have dedicated apps that are far nicer than any flash based web site
    could ever be.

    <http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/no-flash-for-android-4-1-jelly-be
    an-users/11433>
    You may not have noticed at the time but Adobe told us back in
    February that Flash Player would not not supported on Android 4.1 and
    users should uninstall Flash Player prior to upgrading to Android
    4.1, Jelly Bean. Adobe was serious. There will be no Flash for
    Android 4.1.
    ....
    Looking ahead, Adobe will be blocking Flash runtime downloads.
    ³Beginning August 15th we will use the configuration settings in the
    Google Play Store to limit continued access to Flash Player updates
    to only those devices that have Flash Player already installed.
    Devices that do not have Flash Player already installed are
    increasingly likely to be incompatible with Flash Player and will no
    longer be able to install it from the Google Play Store after August
    15th.²
     
    nospam, Dec 7, 2012
    #57
  18. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    | I'm with Apple and Anthony Polson on this, Flash needs to be killed.

    Me too. I would never allow it installed on my PC in
    the first place. But Apple only calls the shots in Appleville,
    which is not in touch with the rest of the world.

    | To support my claim about security risk: http://thenextweb.com/
    | microsoft/2012/11/02/microsofts-security-team-is-killing-it-not-one-
    | product-on-kasperskys-top-10-vulnerabilities-list/
    |

    It's always been one of the biggest security risks.
    On the other hand, javascript is by far the biggest
    problem for both privacy and security. But that doesn't
    mean it's going away soon. People just don't care about
    security. They want to shop, Facebook and watch
    YouTube videos... with zero hassle. If you want interactive
    pages you have to accept security risk.
     
    Mayayana, Dec 7, 2012
    #58
  19. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <k9treo$3dc$>, Mayayana
    <> wrote:

    > | I'm with Apple and Anthony Polson on this, Flash needs to be killed.
    >
    > Me too. I would never allow it installed on my PC in
    > the first place.


    so why are you arguing for keeping it?
     
    nospam, Dec 7, 2012
    #59
  20. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    | > You shouldn't believe things just because Apple
    | > marketing tells you so.
    |
    | they didn't. apple didn't tell me anything.

    No, you just happen to have adamant opinions
    that are always in accord with the Apple view.
    Just as you push $300 SSDs over $50 HDDs as
    the *only* way to go. Pure Apple fan logic.

    | adobe themselves announced mobile flash is dead, and that was nearly a
    | *year* ago.
    |
    | flash is gone from android jelly bean
    | ....performance was usually very poor.

    Mobile? The discussion was about computers and
    the expected life of Flash, not just on mobile. All of
    your references are to mobile.

    Most video online uses Flash because it provides
    a way to obfuscate the file source so that people
    can't easily download the actual file. IE 10 (Win8)
    even has it built in. Flash is also used a lot in
    advertising animation. Sites won't stop using Flash
    to stream video unless they can hide the file path.
    On mobile the situation is different. There's not only
    limited processing power; there's also limited access
    by the person using it, which will make it easier to
    prevent people from downloading video directly.

    | most sites these days offer an html5 version when
    | there is no flash installed

    Most sites? I'm running late-model Mozilla with no
    Flash. I can't see video unless someone offers the
    file download. I can get YouTube videos only because
    I have the DownloadHelper extension. I don't see
    any HTML5 VIDEO tags on their site.

    Maybe Flash will eventually be phased out. But it's
    been an insecure problem for many years now and it's
    still there. It seems rather glib to flaunt predictions
    about how soon it's going to die.
     
    Mayayana, Dec 8, 2012
    #60
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