# Conundrums of tests

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Shane, Aug 7, 2006.

1. ### ShaneGuest

Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep

One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a resit.
The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and points out where
they went wrong.
The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.

So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in fact I
was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test went on
to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me with 87%,
and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest to throw the
first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are, expect 100% on the
resit.

But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going to
see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation that
he only scored so well because of the resit system

Opinions welcome
--
Rule 6: There is no rule 6

Blog: http://shanes.dyndns.org

Shane, Aug 7, 2006

2. ### SonnGuest

Shane wrote:
> Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep
>
> One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a resit.
> The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and points out where
> they went wrong.
> The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.
>
> So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in fact I
> was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
> My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
> questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
> One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test went on
> to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me with 87%,
> and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest to throw the
> first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are, expect 100% on the
> resit.
>
> But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going to
> see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation that
> he only scored so well because of the resit system
>
> Opinions welcome

Or ... it's in your interests to figure out the system, and work with it
for your best (or the organisation's - in the future) interest. Look at
it a different way - a little extra effort pays off, and the effort of
sitting the test again is what what your marks will be reflecting.
Employers also like people who put the effort in.

S.

Sonn, Aug 7, 2006

3. ### JoGuest

"Sonn" <> wrote in message news:44d6dfa3\$...
> Shane wrote:
> Or ... it's in your interests to figure out the system, and work with it
> for your best (or the organisation's - in the future) interest. Look at
> it a different way - a little extra effort pays off, and the effort of
> sitting the test again is what what your marks will be reflecting.
> Employers also like people who put the effort in.
>

Actually most employers like their employees to be charismatic, popular and
easy to get on with. They dont like painfully shy socially inept
perfectionist geniuses.

Jo, Aug 7, 2006
4. ### Chris HopeGuest

Shane wrote:

> Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep
>
> One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a
> resit. The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and
> points out where they went wrong.
> The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.
>
> So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in
> fact I was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
> My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
> questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
> One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test
> went on
> to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me with
> 87%,
> and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest to throw
> the first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are, expect
> 100% on the resit.
>
> But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going
> to see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my
> explanation that he only scored so well because of the resit system
>
> Opinions welcome

When I was studying the pass mark was 80% as well, and if you failed you
could resit like with you sitting exactly the same test. However, no
matter what score you got on the resit, you would be credited with only
80%, assuming you passed on the second go.

--
Chris Hope | www.electrictoolbox.com | www.linuxcdmall.com

Chris Hope, Aug 7, 2006
5. ### Guest

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:56:40 +1200, Shane <-a-geek.net>
wrote:

>Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep
>
>One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a resit.
>The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and points out where
>they went wrong.
>The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.
>
>So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in fact I
>was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
>My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
>questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
>One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test went on
>to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me with 87%,
>and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest to throw the
>first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are, expect 100% on the
>resit.
>
>But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going to
>see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation that
>he only scored so well because of the resit system
>
>Opinions welcome

Welcome to the PC dream of never failing at anything.
If the others get to resit the same test, then it becomes pretty much
like an open book exam, so what's the point of a test at all?
I think the point of a test is to see how much of the course work you
have actually learned and retained.
I would say that the fair thing to do for those who resit and pass
would be to get the pass mark and nothing more.

Blah.

, Aug 7, 2006
6. ### PoohGuest

"Shane" <-a-geek.net> wrote in message
news:eb6klk\$34m\$...
> Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep
>
> One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a resit.
> The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and points out
> where
> they went wrong.
> The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.
>
> So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in fact
> I
> was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
> My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
> questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
> One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test went on
> to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me with 87%,
> and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest to throw the
> first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are, expect 100% on the
> resit.
>
> But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going to
> see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation that
> he only scored so well because of the resit system
>
> Opinions welcome
> --
> Rule 6: There is no rule 6
>
> Blog: http://shanes.dyndns.org

As red would say. "It's the damned commies corupting our school system".
;O) It strikes me as being a bit like cheating. Maybe what they should do is
refuse to give a mark over 80% if it's a retest. I'm in a course that makes
you redo questions you get wrong. However the tutors arn't kind enough to
tell you the 'book' answer. It feels like a bit of fiddle to me, but have to
complete the course wether I like it or not.
However after all that Shane you can and should still feel good about your
mark. Well done from me m8 ;O)

Pooh

Pooh, Aug 7, 2006
7. ### Dave TaylorGuest

wrote in news::

> I would say that the fair thing to do for those who resit and pass
> would be to get the pass mark and nothing more.

Sounds good and fair to me.

--
Ciao, Dave

Dave Taylor, Aug 7, 2006
8. ### Dave TaylorGuest

"Jo" <> wrote in news:44d6e2ca\$:

> Actually most employers like their employees to be charismatic,
> popular and easy to get on with. They dont like painfully shy socially
> inept perfectionist geniuses.

Thinking of "Hands" from Boston Legal?

--
Ciao, Dave

Dave Taylor, Aug 7, 2006
9. ### AllistarGuest

wrote:

> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:56:40 +1200, Shane <-a-geek.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep
>>
>>One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a resit.
>>The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and points out
>>where they went wrong.
>>The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.
>>
>>So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in fact
>>I was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
>>My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
>>questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
>>One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test went on
>>to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me with 87%,
>>and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest to throw the
>>first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are, expect 100% on the
>>resit.
>>
>>But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going to
>>see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation that
>>he only scored so well because of the resit system
>>
>>Opinions welcome

> Welcome to the PC dream of never failing at anything.
> If the others get to resit the same test, then it becomes pretty much
> like an open book exam, so what's the point of a test at all?
> I think the point of a test is to see how much of the course work you
> have actually learned and retained.
> I would say that the fair thing to do for those who resit and pass
> would be to get the pass mark and nothing more.

Isn't the fair thing for those who fail the test simply.... fail? Why get a
second chance?

Allistar.

Allistar, Aug 7, 2006
10. ### ~misfit~Guest

Dave Taylor wrote:
> "Jo" <> wrote in news:44d6e2ca\$:
>
> > Actually most employers like their employees to be charismatic,
> > popular and easy to get on with. They dont like painfully shy
> > socially inept perfectionist geniuses.

>
> Thinking of "Hands" from Boston Legal?

Asperger's Syndrome. I thought of that as soon as I first saw him.

BTW, that has to be one of the funniest shows around. Isn't it strange how
modern dramas are often funnier (by far) than modern comedy shows?
--
Shaun.

~misfit~, Aug 7, 2006
11. ### ~misfit~Guest

Dave Taylor wrote:
> wrote in
> news::
>
> > I would say that the fair thing to do for those who resit and pass
> > would be to get the pass mark and nothing more.

>
> Sounds good and fair to me.

Ditto.
--
Shaun.

~misfit~, Aug 7, 2006
12. ### Earl GreyGuest

Allistar wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:56:40 +1200, Shane <-a-geek.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep
>>>
>>> One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a resit.
>>> The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and points out
>>> where they went wrong.
>>> The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.
>>>
>>> So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in fact
>>> I was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
>>> My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
>>> questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
>>> One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test went on
>>> to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me with 87%,
>>> and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest to throw the
>>> first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are, expect 100% on the
>>> resit.
>>>
>>> But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going to
>>> see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation that
>>> he only scored so well because of the resit system
>>>
>>> Opinions welcome

>> Welcome to the PC dream of never failing at anything.
>> If the others get to resit the same test, then it becomes pretty much
>> like an open book exam, so what's the point of a test at all?
>> I think the point of a test is to see how much of the course work you
>> have actually learned and retained.
>> I would say that the fair thing to do for those who resit and pass
>> would be to get the pass mark and nothing more.

>
> Isn't the fair thing for those who fail the test simply.... fail? Why get a
> second chance?
>
> Allistar.

Because a test shows you what you need to learn maybe ?

Earl Grey, Aug 7, 2006
13. ### AllistarGuest

Earl Grey wrote:

> Allistar wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:56:40 +1200, Shane <-a-geek.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep
>>>>
>>>> One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a
>>>> resit. The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and
>>>> points out where they went wrong.
>>>> The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.
>>>>
>>>> So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in
>>>> fact I was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
>>>> My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
>>>> questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
>>>> One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test went
>>>> on
>>>> to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me with
>>>> 87%,
>>>> and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest to throw
>>>> the first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are, expect 100%
>>>> on the resit.
>>>>
>>>> But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going
>>>> to see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation
>>>> that he only scored so well because of the resit system
>>>>
>>>> Opinions welcome
>>> Welcome to the PC dream of never failing at anything.
>>> If the others get to resit the same test, then it becomes pretty much
>>> like an open book exam, so what's the point of a test at all?
>>> I think the point of a test is to see how much of the course work you
>>> have actually learned and retained.
>>> I would say that the fair thing to do for those who resit and pass
>>> would be to get the pass mark and nothing more.

>>
>> Isn't the fair thing for those who fail the test simply.... fail? Why get
>> a second chance?
>>
>> Allistar.

>
> Because a test shows you what you need to learn maybe ?

By all means show them why and where they failed, but letting them resit
with the exact same questions leads to meaningless results.

In my day (not that long ago) tests were either passed or failed. There
seems to be a culture of protecting people from failure. Failure is the
best way to ensure non failure next time (as one will find out when
forgetting their wedding anniversary ).

Allistar.

Allistar, Aug 7, 2006
14. ### Waylon KenningGuest

T'was the Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:56:40 +1200 when I remembered Shane
<-a-geek.net> saying something like this:

>But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going to
>see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation that
>he only scored so well because of the resit system

This is a degree right? When I was at Weltec, we didn't have resits
for degree (level 5+) papers. Same as here at Waikato.

More to the point, if you are being reassessed, it should be with
different questions. You can't reassess someone using the same
questions.

Blame Wintec I guess.
--
Cheers,

Waylon Kenning.

Waylon Kenning, Aug 7, 2006
15. ### ShaneGuest

On 2006-08-07, Allistar <> wrote:
> Earl Grey wrote:
>
>> Allistar wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:56:40 +1200, Shane <-a-geek.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep
>>>>>
>>>>> One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a
>>>>> resit. The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and
>>>>> points out where they went wrong.
>>>>> The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.
>>>>>
>>>>> So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in
>>>>> fact I was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
>>>>> My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
>>>>> questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
>>>>> One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test went
>>>>> on
>>>>> to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me with
>>>>> 87%,
>>>>> and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest to throw
>>>>> the first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are, expect 100%
>>>>> on the resit.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going
>>>>> to see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation
>>>>> that he only scored so well because of the resit system
>>>>>
>>>>> Opinions welcome
>>>> Welcome to the PC dream of never failing at anything.
>>>> If the others get to resit the same test, then it becomes pretty much
>>>> like an open book exam, so what's the point of a test at all?
>>>> I think the point of a test is to see how much of the course work you
>>>> have actually learned and retained.
>>>> I would say that the fair thing to do for those who resit and pass
>>>> would be to get the pass mark and nothing more.
>>>
>>> Isn't the fair thing for those who fail the test simply.... fail? Why get
>>> a second chance?
>>>
>>> Allistar.

>>
>> Because a test shows you what you need to learn maybe ?

>
> By all means show them why and where they failed, but letting them resit
> with the exact same questions leads to meaningless results.
>
> In my day (not that long ago) tests were either passed or failed. There
> seems to be a culture of protecting people from failure. Failure is the
> best way to ensure non failure next time (as one will find out when
> forgetting their wedding anniversary ).
>
> Allistar.

When I sat my other exams of this nature the questions were different, so its
made me think twice. Ethically I should go for gold on the first attempt, but is
it better to play the situation to my advantage.

Shane, Aug 7, 2006
16. ### ShaneGuest

On 2006-08-07, Waylon Kenning <> wrote:
> T'was the Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:56:40 +1200 when I remembered Shane
><-a-geek.net> saying something like this:
>
>>But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going to
>>see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my explanation that
>>he only scored so well because of the resit system

>
> This is a degree right? When I was at Weltec, we didn't have resits
> for degree (level 5+) papers. Same as here at Waikato.
>
> More to the point, if you are being reassessed, it should be with
> different questions. You can't reassess someone using the same
> questions.
>
> Blame Wintec I guess.

Its one class, in other classes there is no resit. Further its an offsite
testing procedure. Wintec (as far as I can make out is just following the
prescription)

Shane, Aug 7, 2006
17. ### MarkHGuest

Shane <-a-geek.net> wrote in
news:eb6klk\$34m\$:

> Lets see if I can summon the wisdom from the deep
>
> One of my papers is tested once per week, and people who fail get a
> resit. The tutor normally goes over the test they just failed and
> points out where they went wrong.
> The interesting thing is, the resit is precisely the same test.
>
> So far I have been the highest in the class for the first attempt (in
> fact I was one of only two to pass the third weeks test)
> My mark was 87% which I had thought was quite good (there was only 18
> questions in the test and the pass mark is 80%)
> One of my friends who scored 62% on the first attempt at that test
> went on to score 100% in the resit. The record for that test shows me
> with 87%, and him with 100%. It appears to me that its in my interest
> to throw the first attempt, and then knowing what the questions are,
> expect 100% on the resit.
>
> But it doesnt feel honest. At the end of the day, employers are going
> to see his 100% and my 87%, and are they going to accept my
> explanation that he only scored so well because of the resit system
>
> Opinions welcome

Have you asked the tutor about it? When you finish this paper how do they
calculate your final mark? Does your friend get a higher final mark with
100% on the resit or would you have the higher final mark with higher
scores on the first sit?

If you tutor advises you that you would get a higher final mark due to the
good score on the first try then why are you complaining here?

If you tutor sheepishly admits that your friend would be looking at a
better final mark then you need to demand to also be allowed a resit, even
if you got 87% on the first try. In fact everyone should get to do the
test twice.

At the end of the day would an employer really get to see the results of
each weekly test?

My opinion is that you should take your concerns to the relevant people and
either have your concerns laid to rest or have the system changed to be
fairer. You should especially ask if there is any reason why the tutor
couldn't explain where you went wrong and then let you have a resit to

--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 27-May-06)
"The person on the other side was a young woman. Very obviously a
young woman. There was no possible way she could have been mistaken
for a young man in any language, especially Braille."

MarkH, Aug 8, 2006
18. ### RichardGuest

Shane wrote:

>
> Its one class, in other classes there is no resit. Further its an offsite
> testing procedure. Wintec (as far as I can make out is just following the
> prescription)
> Blame a big name instead

Is this one of the worthless but necessary industry qualifications from cisco/ms
etc?

Richard, Aug 8, 2006
19. ### ShaneGuest

Richard wrote:

> Shane wrote:
>
>>
>> Its one class, in other classes there is no resit. Further its an offsite
>> testing procedure. Wintec (as far as I can make out is just following
>> the prescription)
>> Blame a big name instead

>
> Is this one of the worthless but necessary industry qualifications from
> cisco/ms etc?

Yessum
Cisco

--
Rule 6: There is no rule 6

Blog: http://shanes.dyndns.org

Shane, Aug 8, 2006
20. ### Waylon KenningGuest

T'was the Mon, 7 Aug 2006 21:48:19 +0000 (UTC) when I remembered Shane
<-a-geek.net> saying something like this:

>Its one class, in other classes there is no resit. Further its an offsite
>testing procedure. Wintec (as far as I can make out is just following the
>prescription)

CCNA?
--
Cheers,

Waylon Kenning.

Waylon Kenning, Aug 8, 2006