Computer toasted?

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by mike4ty4@yahoo.com, Oct 27, 2006.

  1. Guest

    w_tom wrote:
    > Again, disconnect nothing. When connected to the motherboard,
    > power switch does nothing. Now we have important facts. Dead bodies
    > always tell us useful information. Again, before pressing power
    > switch, what are the voltages on gray, green, and purple wires? And
    > what does meter demonstrate when power switch is pressed? Without
    > those numbers, nobody can provide useful information.
    >


    Well I decided to do the test with the digital multimeter and with the
    power
    supply plugged in to everything (motherboard, disk drives, etc.).
    Results
    below.

    > Again, notice what is the most important fact. The numbers. Purple
    > wire must provide a voltage that is above 4.87 when computer appears
    > completely dead. A voltage that exists if power cord is connected to
    > wall receptacle. A purple wire voltage that does not change when power
    > switch is pressed. Green wire is what voltage when computer is not
    > powered - before power switch is pressed? It should be more than 2.0
    > volts. When power switch is pressed, that voltage must drop down to
    > less than 0.8 volts. Does it? And what are those values?
    >


    When the computer is off and the button not pressed, the purple wire
    gave
    5.07 V. The voltage did not change AT ALL when the button was pushed.
    The green wire gave 4.98 V but also did *not* drop on pushing the
    switch,
    as though nothing was drawing any power.

    > Gray wire is near zero volts when computer is powered off (and whn
    > purple wire has more than 4.87 volts). What does that wire do when
    > power switch is pressed? Does it rise above 2.4 volts? Does it stay
    > above 2.4 volts? How high does it remain?
    >


    The gray wire gave zero volts, and stayed at zero upon button push.

    So, with this information, what do you think is wrong?

    > These are useful facts about the entire power supply 'system'. Only
    > useful information is what 'system' does - not just the power supply.
    >
    > Damage due to overheating is promoted by myths. Heat is a tool to
    > find intemittent or to find failures before those failures are
    > apparent. Don't worry about heat. Those who grap for solutions
    > without first learning facts will blame only what they understand. IOW
    > they worry about heat - and then cure symptoms. One case fan is more
    > than enough for any system. But those who don't first learn technology
    > and the numbers want more fans.
    >
    > Why did hotwire (green wire jumper) cause power supply to work?
    > Again, we have no idea because the reasons are so long and because the
    > power system is not part of a power supply 'system'. Problem may be
    > inside power supply. Or problem may be in rest of power supply
    > 'system'.
    >


    But the thing is, the button does not start it (the PSU), while making
    a direct
    connection _does_ start the thing up, which suggests it is capable of
    coming on, but the board fails to start it.

    > Websites had changed since I last saw them. If they discuss
    > disconnecting anything to take a reading, then ignore it. A white
    > nylone 20 pin connector to motherboard has holes where each wire
    > enters. Push probes into those same holes to get a meter reading.
    > Again, no reason to strip any wire or disconnect anything to make
    > necessary voltage readings. No reason to disconnect anything until
    > facts tell us where to look. Every wire is accessible.
    >
    > Again, website was cited mostly for the pictures on how to use probe
    > and read a meter. And since then, web sites may have added facts
    > erroneous. Do not follow their instructions. Take voltages as I have
    > posted. No disconnections.
    >
    > wrote:
    > > ...
    > > I cannot even power it up with it connected to the motherboard. When I
    > > push the switch it does not start. Since it has to go through the
    > > motherboard,
    > > I think that's where the problem is. When I jumpered the green to black
    > > wire like it said, the power supply fan came on, and then I proceeded
    > > to
    > > measure the voltages from the wires going into the MB connector. The
    > > numbers agreed with what was given on the sites -- 12V lines gave
    > > around 12V (some registered around 12.5 V, is that too high? Could it
    > > have *over*loaded something in the computer? Would that explain the
    > > tilting killing it?), 5V ones gave 5V, etc. Since the fan was able to start,
    > > I therefore think the problem is between the switch and the power supply
    > > --
    > > the motherboard. It could have overheated perhaps due to lack of a
    > > running case fan, it could have died of old age, etc. If the power
    > > supply failed so bad as to not even run it's fan then why does
    > > "hotwiring" it start it?
    > > ...
    > >
    > > You have to disconnect a connector to test it. Can you measure through
    > > insulated wires? What? Strip the insulation off? The website didn't say
    > > to do that...
    > > ...
    > >
    > > How do you test that with the darned thing plugged into the motherboard
    > > and the pins/etc. inaccessible? (you can't connect things to a
    > > connector that is already connected to something. That should be
    > > obvious.) You have to pull out SOME plug in order to test it. D'oh! And
    > > by "long since" failed, remember that this power supply was brand
    > > new... are you saying there was a manufacturing defect? Not that such
    > > a thing is impossible, just is that what you are saying?
    > > ...
    > >
    > > And the heatsink is firmly attached & the CPU fan ran, so that is not
    > > the problem. Amd yes, I have seen the video of the AMD chip
    > > roasting itself. There was even another video where it
    > > actually _exploded_ and blew a hole in the motherboard, although
    > > I've been told that that one was a hoax.
    > > ...
    > >
    > > I tested all the connections on the M/B connector. I followed the
    > > instructions on the website, which says nothing about plugging it
    > > into the MB and somehow measuring through insulated wires.
     
    , Oct 30, 2006
    #41
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  2. w_tom Guest

    In a previous example, you jumpered the green wire so that power
    supply turned on. The power supply controller does same thing. But
    your voltage numbers say the power supply controller did not 'jumper'
    the green wire. Voltage stayed at 4.98 volts. Therefore power supply
    did exactly what it was suppose to do - gray wire stayed at zero volts
    and no voltage appears on red, yellow, and orange wire.

    So why did power supply controller not ask for power on? Well,
    purple wire gave 5 volts to that power supply controller. What else
    did controller need? A signal from the power switch.

    Find two pins that switch connects to. Maybe using a paper clip or a
    piece of wire, connect meter probes to those two pins. As switch is
    pressed, voltage between two pins should drop to zero. IOW voltage
    must exist when switch is not pressed and voltage must be shorted out
    by a pressed switch. If voltage drops, the power supply controller is
    being told to turn on power supply. If voltage drops, then the switch
    input is working.

    Another reason why green wire voltage did not drop might be a bad
    connection inside that 20 pin power supply to motherboard connector.
    Visually inspect connector and contacts. Or maybe purple wire is
    somehow shorted to green wire inside power supply. IOW if too much
    power is on green wire, then power supply controller cannot conduct all
    that 'too much' power. It looks like the power supply controller is
    defective. But one final check just to make sure problem is not inside
    power supply.

    Disconnect AC mains power cord and remove 20 contact power supply
    connector. Then reconnect AC mains. Green wire to black wire should
    measure that same 4.98 volts. Now switch meter to current mode
    starting at a highest current range (2 amps?). Slowly switch the meter
    down to lower current ranges until a non-zero reading is obtained
    (power supply will turn on as you do this). That current reading
    should be quite low - well below 0.02 amps or well less than 20
    milliamps.

    If green wire can only output less than 20 milliamps, then only
    remaining problem is power supply controller on motherboard. Do some
    visual inspections of that motherboard. Are any capacitors bulging on
    their tops? Is there a metal splinter touching motherboard? Does a
    standoff short to a PC trace beneath motherboard? These could be some
    correctable reasons why a power supply controller did not operate. We
    can see from those first meter readings where to look. Power supply
    controller inputs are purple wire 5 volts and the power switch. 5
    volts exists on purple wire. If your measurements prove the power
    switch is working, then only remaining defect is the power supply
    controller output - an output that 'jumpers' that green wire.

    Notice how quickly those first two minutes with a multimeter pointed
    right at the problem. Identified without disconnecting anything and
    without 'shotgunning'.

    wrote:
    > ...
    > Well I decided to do the test with the digital multimeter and with the
    > power supply plugged in to everything (motherboard, disk drives,
    > etc.). Results below.
    > ...
    >
    > When the computer is off and the button not pressed, the purple wire
    > gave 5.07 V. The voltage did not change AT ALL when the button
    > was pushed. The green wire gave 4.98 V but also did *not* drop on
    > pushing the switch, as though nothing was drawing any power.
    > ...
    >
    > The gray wire gave zero volts, and stayed at zero upon button push.
    >
    > So, with this information, what do you think is wrong?
     
    w_tom, Oct 30, 2006
    #42
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  3. Guest

    w_tom wrote:
    > In a previous example, you jumpered the green wire so that power
    > supply turned on. The power supply controller does same thing. But
    > your voltage numbers say the power supply controller did not 'jumper'
    > the green wire. Voltage stayed at 4.98 volts. Therefore power supply
    > did exactly what it was suppose to do - gray wire stayed at zero volts
    > and no voltage appears on red, yellow, and orange wire.
    >
    > So why did power supply controller not ask for power on? Well,
    > purple wire gave 5 volts to that power supply controller. What else
    > did controller need? A signal from the power switch.
    >
    > Find two pins that switch connects to. Maybe using a paper clip or a
    > piece of wire, connect meter probes to those two pins. As switch is
    > pressed, voltage between two pins should drop to zero. IOW voltage
    > must exist when switch is not pressed and voltage must be shorted out
    > by a pressed switch. If voltage drops, the power supply controller is
    > being told to turn on power supply. If voltage drops, then the switch
    > input is working.
    >


    When it's connected to the board or not? I tested it while unconnected
    and it switches on/off OK (resistance check). I can't seem to get down
    inside the connector for doing an onboard test.

    > Another reason why green wire voltage did not drop might be a bad
    > connection inside that 20 pin power supply to motherboard connector.
    > Visually inspect connector and contacts. Or maybe purple wire is
    > somehow shorted to green wire inside power supply. IOW if too much
    > power is on green wire, then power supply controller cannot conduct all
    > that 'too much' power. It looks like the power supply controller is
    > defective. But one final check just to make sure problem is not inside
    > power supply.
    >


    I just found out something! My switch wasn't plugged into the board
    when
    I did the test! I plugged it back in and tested again. This time the
    green wire
    voltage DID drop to zero when I pressed the button like you said it
    should.
    But the grey wire voltage did *not* go up above 2.4 V like you said it
    should,
    nor did the power supply fan turn on. Yet it turns on when using the
    meter
    for the test you give below... weird.

    > Disconnect AC mains power cord and remove 20 contact power supply
    > connector. Then reconnect AC mains. Green wire to black wire should
    > measure that same 4.98 volts. Now switch meter to current mode
    > starting at a highest current range (2 amps?). Slowly switch the meter
    > down to lower current ranges until a non-zero reading is obtained
    > (power supply will turn on as you do this). That current reading
    > should be quite low - well below 0.02 amps or well less than 20
    > milliamps.
    >


    It gave around 2 milliamps, which is "well less" than 20, obviously.
    The
    power supply *did* start up like you said it would (the fan started
    whirring).

    > If green wire can only output less than 20 milliamps, then only
    > remaining problem is power supply controller on motherboard. Do some
    > visual inspections of that motherboard. Are any capacitors bulging on
    > their tops? Is there a metal splinter touching motherboard? Does a
    > standoff short to a PC trace beneath motherboard? These could be some
    > correctable reasons why a power supply controller did not operate. We
    > can see from those first meter readings where to look. Power supply
    > controller inputs are purple wire 5 volts and the power switch. 5
    > volts exists on purple wire. If your measurements prove the power
    > switch is working, then only remaining defect is the power supply
    > controller output - an output that 'jumpers' that green wire.
    >


    So what do you think now, given the new information I just gave?

    > Notice how quickly those first two minutes with a multimeter pointed
    > right at the problem. Identified without disconnecting anything and
    > without 'shotgunning'.
    >
    > wrote:
    > > ...
    > > Well I decided to do the test with the digital multimeter and with the
    > > power supply plugged in to everything (motherboard, disk drives,
    > > etc.). Results below.
    > > ...
    > >
    > > When the computer is off and the button not pressed, the purple wire
    > > gave 5.07 V. The voltage did not change AT ALL when the button
    > > was pushed. The green wire gave 4.98 V but also did *not* drop on
    > > pushing the switch, as though nothing was drawing any power.
    > > ...
    > >
    > > The gray wire gave zero volts, and stayed at zero upon button push.
    > >
    > > So, with this information, what do you think is wrong?
     
    , Oct 30, 2006
    #43
  4. I downloaded new messages from 24hoursupport.helpdesk on Sun, 29 Oct
    2006 03:31:36 GMT, and "Rich Wilson" <>
    vomited forth this bit of wisdom :

    >
    >"A Colored Guy" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >>I downloaded new messages from 24hoursupport.helpdesk on 28 Oct 2006
    >> 03:46:15 -0700, and "w_tom" <> vomited forth this bit
    >> of wisdom :
    >>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>> ...
    >>>> But IS IT SAFE to test the power supply in the way you describe?
    >>>
    >>> You performed major surgery - replaced a power supply. And now you
    >>>ask about safety? Capacitors inside a disconnected power supply can
    >>>store far more dangerous charges? Did you know voltages inside your
    >>>car battery could be more dangerous?
    >>>
    >>> Your questions were answered in the previous post that included
    >>>pictures and this link http://tinyurl.com/qcvuq . You did major
    >>>surgery. You disconnected wires. Such surgery is not necessary in
    >>>posted procedure / pictures AND such can cause changes that either
    >>>masks a problem or that exponentially complicate the problem. Simply
    >>>disconnecting and reconnecting the power supply connector could have
    >>>eliminated (temporarily) those reboots and not solved the problem.
    >>>
    >>> How would a meter find the problem? Return to and read the earlier
    >>>post that stated exact how and why the meter does its job. Why did you
    >>>not even view the pictures? Earlier post answered your questions.
    >>>
    >>> Meanwhile, it could not overheat with heatsink ajar. Overheating
    >>>would have been likely - and occurred so fast that temperature would
    >>>not be noted fast enough. Your numbers only confirm what we knew
    >>>happened when you said, "Intel".

    >>
    >> I still think it was his power cord.

    >
    >Yep, sounds like exactly what happens when you don't push the power
    >connector in far enough, or when there's a loose connection in the cord.
    >
    >If we say it enough times, someone might listen!
    >

    I made my PC and one day it started acting way weird.
    It would flicker, then shut off, then turn itself back on and off and
    on...someone suggested the power supply and since I had a lot lotta
    shit in the dang thing I figgered I'd go and get a big bastard power
    supply.
    I did then stupidly used the same old power cord to plug it in.
    And I got the same old results!
    Just for the hell of it I tried the new power cord.
    No probs since!
    I figure my old power supply is prob still good.
     
    A Colored Guy, Oct 30, 2006
    #44
  5. w_tom Guest

    The previous post demonstrated that power supply controller was not
    ordering the power supply on. So power supply controller inputs were
    examined, corrected a disconnected switch (an example of why problems
    get more complex when doing surgery before collecting facts), and now
    the power supply controller is dropping green wire voltage down to
    zero. Good. Power supply controller and power switch are not
    confirmed OK. Significant progress. Power supply controller is
    ordering power supply to On (shorting to ground the green "!Power On"
    signal wire).

    Gray wire (called Power Good) fails to rise from zero when power
    switch is pressed. Power supply system monitors all voltages. If any
    voltage does not power within two seconds, the power supply system
    shuts down all voltages and CPU never starts. OK. Which voltage is
    not becoming stable in less than 2 seconds?

    Using a multimeter, monitor voltage for one of each colored wire -
    red, orange, and yellow - when switch is pressed. Some voltages will
    probably pulse on and then fall. If any voltage does not rise (pulse),
    then that is the 'suspect voltage'. 'Suspect voltage' would cause a
    "Power Good" (gray wire) failure. Analysis continues by seeking
    something that is shorting out that 'suspect voltage'. (don't bother
    with purple wire 5 volts because purple wire is a different power
    supply circuit and is not monitored by the Power Good circuit).

    Having established a 'suspect voltage', then step through the system
    seeking something that would be shorting out that voltage. For
    example, red and yellow wires are +5V and +12 volt to peripherals (IOW
    disk drives, CD-ROM, etc). If the red wire voltage has no power
    (voltage pulse) when switch is pressed, then power down and remove AC
    power cord, disconnect peripherals connected to red wires, restore AC
    mains power cord, and try to power up again.

    Step by step, eliminate items that might be shorting out the 'suspect
    voltage' power until all that is left is motherboard. Even disconnect
    mouse and keyboard. Always disconnect AC power cord before connecting
    or disconnecting anything; made obvious by purple wire voltage.

    If disconnected peripherals do not eliminate the problem, then unplug
    IO bus cards - and try again (take static electric precautions).

    One device powered from yellow (12 volt) wire is CPU. CPU has a
    separate power supply located adjacent to CPU and powered from 12
    volts. CPUs rarely cause your problem. But that adjacent CPU power
    supply could short out. If 'suspect voltage' is on yellow wire, then
    inspect components adjacent to CPU. Again, if any capacitors are
    bulging on top, then you have identified why that yellow wire (12
    volts) is 'suspect voltage' and why that Power Good signal does not
    rise.

    Above assumes 'Power Good' fails due to excessive (short circuit)
    loading. If everything but motherboard is disconnected and Power Good
    signal does not rise, then two suspects remain.

    'Suspect voltage' would occur for two reasons. Either load is
    excessive and power supply goes into self protection mode. Or power
    supply itself is defective. We can determine if power supply is
    defective, but cannot determine if power supply is good.

    Based upon the '2 milliamp' test, I suspect failure is not power
    supply - may be motherboard. But we want to disconnect one item or a
    few items at a time so that too much change does not 'mask' the
    problem. Before we fix the problem, we want to know where it was. If
    everything is removed from motherboard, then left are only two
    suspects.

    Disconnect power supply. Attach meter probes to each voltage - red,
    orange, and yellow wires - then jumper the 'green wire to black' (as
    demonstrated in those websites). That jumpering should power each
    supply voltage. What does each voltage do - the 'suspect voltage' and
    other voltages? If all voltages rise and stay stable, then something
    on motherboard might be shorted. If power supply still does not pulse
    or maintain that 'suspect voltage', but other voltages do pulse on,
    then we have clearly identified power supply as defective. If all
    voltages (including suspect voltage) pulse on or stay on, then
    motherboard 'may' be reason for failure. Inspect the motherboard as
    described in a previous post for things like a standoff shorted to a
    motherboard trace, bulging capacitor, metal splinter, etc. Inspection
    defined by which voltage is the 'suspect voltage'.

    wrote:
    > ...
    > When it's connected to the board or not? I tested it while unconnected
    > and it switches on/off OK (resistance check). I can't seem to get down
    > inside the connector for doing an onboard test.
    > ...
    >
    > I just found out something! My switch wasn't plugged into the board
    > when I did the test! I plugged it back in and tested again. This time
    > the green wire voltage DID drop to zero when I pressed the button
    > like you said it should. But the grey wire voltage did *not* go up
    > above 2.4 V like you said it should, nor did the power supply fan
    > turn on. Yet it turns on when using the meter for the test you give
    > below... weird.
    > ...
    >
    > It gave around 2 milliamps, which is "well less" than 20, obviously.
    > The power supply *did* start up like you said it would (the fan
    > started whirring).
    > ...
    >
    > So what do you think now, given the new information I just gave?
    > ...
     
    w_tom, Oct 30, 2006
    #45
  6. Guest

    w_tom wrote:
    > The previous post demonstrated that power supply controller was not
    > ordering the power supply on. So power supply controller inputs were
    > examined, corrected a disconnected switch (an example of why problems
    > get more complex when doing surgery before collecting facts), and now
    > the power supply controller is dropping green wire voltage down to
    > zero. Good. Power supply controller and power switch are not
    > confirmed OK. Significant progress. Power supply controller is
    > ordering power supply to On (shorting to ground the green "!Power On"
    > signal wire).
    >
    > Gray wire (called Power Good) fails to rise from zero when power
    > switch is pressed. Power supply system monitors all voltages. If any
    > voltage does not power within two seconds, the power supply system
    > shuts down all voltages and CPU never starts. OK. Which voltage is
    > not becoming stable in less than 2 seconds?
    >
    > Using a multimeter, monitor voltage for one of each colored wire -
    > red, orange, and yellow - when switch is pressed. Some voltages will
    > probably pulse on and then fall. If any voltage does not rise (pulse),
    > then that is the 'suspect voltage'. 'Suspect voltage' would cause a
    > "Power Good" (gray wire) failure. Analysis continues by seeking
    > something that is shorting out that 'suspect voltage'. (don't bother
    > with purple wire 5 volts because purple wire is a different power
    > supply circuit and is not monitored by the Power Good circuit).
    >
    > Having established a 'suspect voltage', then step through the system
    > seeking something that would be shorting out that voltage. For
    > example, red and yellow wires are +5V and +12 volt to peripherals (IOW
    > disk drives, CD-ROM, etc). If the red wire voltage has no power
    > (voltage pulse) when switch is pressed, then power down and remove AC
    > power cord, disconnect peripherals connected to red wires, restore AC
    > mains power cord, and try to power up again.
    >
    > Step by step, eliminate items that might be shorting out the 'suspect
    > voltage' power until all that is left is motherboard. Even disconnect
    > mouse and keyboard. Always disconnect AC power cord before connecting
    > or disconnecting anything; made obvious by purple wire voltage.
    >
    > If disconnected peripherals do not eliminate the problem, then unplug
    > IO bus cards - and try again (take static electric precautions).
    >
    > One device powered from yellow (12 volt) wire is CPU. CPU has a
    > separate power supply located adjacent to CPU and powered from 12
    > volts. CPUs rarely cause your problem. But that adjacent CPU power
    > supply could short out. If 'suspect voltage' is on yellow wire, then
    > inspect components adjacent to CPU. Again, if any capacitors are
    > bulging on top, then you have identified why that yellow wire (12
    > volts) is 'suspect voltage' and why that Power Good signal does not
    > rise.
    >
    > Above assumes 'Power Good' fails due to excessive (short circuit)
    > loading. If everything but motherboard is disconnected and Power Good
    > signal does not rise, then two suspects remain.
    >
    > 'Suspect voltage' would occur for two reasons. Either load is
    > excessive and power supply goes into self protection mode. Or power
    > supply itself is defective. We can determine if power supply is
    > defective, but cannot determine if power supply is good.
    >
    > Based upon the '2 milliamp' test, I suspect failure is not power
    > supply - may be motherboard. But we want to disconnect one item or a
    > few items at a time so that too much change does not 'mask' the
    > problem. Before we fix the problem, we want to know where it was. If
    > everything is removed from motherboard, then left are only two
    > suspects.
    >
    > Disconnect power supply. Attach meter probes to each voltage - red,
    > orange, and yellow wires - then jumper the 'green wire to black' (as
    > demonstrated in those websites). That jumpering should power each
    > supply voltage. What does each voltage do - the 'suspect voltage' and
    > other voltages? If all voltages rise and stay stable, then something
    > on motherboard might be shorted. If power supply still does not pulse
    > or maintain that 'suspect voltage', but other voltages do pulse on,
    > then we have clearly identified power supply as defective. If all
    > voltages (including suspect voltage) pulse on or stay on, then
    > motherboard 'may' be reason for failure. Inspect the motherboard as
    > described in a previous post for things like a standoff shorted to a
    > motherboard trace, bulging capacitor, metal splinter, etc. Inspection
    > defined by which voltage is the 'suspect voltage'.
    >


    Well I didn't do all those tests, but I did decide to try out
    something,
    maybe it was dumb, maybe it wasn't. I removed everything from the
    board except for the CPU and disconnected all peripherals. Then
    I tested the gray wire and it still failed to rise. I might try the
    tests
    you gave above later, but I'm not sure what to make of this (I did
    that test because I suspected the motherboard and/or power
    supply.). I also tried booting the system off of the old power supply
    and it still failed to start.

    > wrote:
    > > ...
    > > When it's connected to the board or not? I tested it while unconnected
    > > and it switches on/off OK (resistance check). I can't seem to get down
    > > inside the connector for doing an onboard test.
    > > ...
    > >
    > > I just found out something! My switch wasn't plugged into the board
    > > when I did the test! I plugged it back in and tested again. This time
    > > the green wire voltage DID drop to zero when I pressed the button
    > > like you said it should. But the grey wire voltage did *not* go up
    > > above 2.4 V like you said it should, nor did the power supply fan
    > > turn on. Yet it turns on when using the meter for the test you give
    > > below... weird.
    > > ...
    > >
    > > It gave around 2 milliamps, which is "well less" than 20, obviously.
    > > The power supply *did* start up like you said it would (the fan
    > > started whirring).
    > > ...
    > >
    > > So what do you think now, given the new information I just gave?
    > > ...
     
    , Oct 30, 2006
    #46
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