Computer Identity and Internet Spying?

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by cmashieldscapting@hotmail.com, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. Guest

    Does a specific computer have a specific identity regardless of who is
    using it and where?

    Suppose a person changed ISPs, got a completely new email address from
    their new ISP, used a new personal name for it, and didn't put anything
    identifying on their email profile, such as a home address or phone
    number?

    Could someone who was spying before on what this person was doing
    online continue spying although the computer has a new ISP and
    (supposedly) new user, because the computer itself has some identifying
    code embedded in its very vitals?

    Does the physical location of the computer matter at all? That is, if
    the person moved completely out of the region (which would obviously
    result in changing ISPs) but took their same computer, could that same
    computer still be traced to them?

    Is a Macintosh specifically different in this regard than any other
    computer, more easy to identify, less easy, or does this work the same
    for all computers?

    Thanks for any information on clearing up these questions.

    Cori
     
    , Jan 15, 2006
    #1
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  2. Todd H. Guest

    writes:
    > Does a specific computer have a specific identity regardless of who is
    > using it and where?


    It depends.

    > Suppose a person changed ISPs, got a completely new email address
    > from their new ISP, used a new personal name for it, and didn't put
    > anything identifying on their email profile, such as a home address
    > or phone number?


    Assuming their computer is not compromised with a key logger, or
    anything that phoned home and tipped an individual snoop off to the
    physical machine's new whereabouts, it would be fairly untraceable,
    at least by mortals.

    > Could someone who was spying before on what this person was doing
    > online continue spying although the computer has a new ISP and
    > (supposedly) new user, because the computer itself has some
    > identifying code embedded in its very vitals?


    If the creepy snoop managed to get software onto that computer
    unbeknownst to its rightful owner, then all bets are off.

    If one wanted to be reasonably certain against being traced to a new
    location, purchasing a new computer, or completely reinstalling the
    operating system from original media would be the prescription I'd
    write.

    > Does the physical location of the computer matter at all?


    > That is, if the person moved completely out of the region (which
    > would obviously result in changing ISPs) but took their same
    > computer, could that same computer still be traced to them?


    Depends... The biggies for making the move untraceable would be to
    change the email address completely, use no identifying information in
    the new email addresses, don't leave traces behind in usenet
    newsgroups that might identify someone based on writing style or word
    choice, or whatever, change the version/type of email/news reader
    being used (or use one that's exceedingly common), and completely
    reinstall the operating system on the computer to make sure there
    isn't any spyware. If you wanted to be very paranoid and rule out the
    possibility of a hardware based snooping on the computer itself
    somehow... buy a new machine entirely.

    Another thing to consider is that there was (and maybe still is)
    unique identifiers embedded in Microsoft office documents that
    someone very very savvy could use to try to track someone...but that's
    getting into the realm of having to have someone as resourceful as
    goverment agencies who REALLY want to find someone able to track
    taht.


    > Is a Macintosh specifically different in this regard than any other
    > computer, more easy to identify, less easy, or does this work the
    > same for all computers?


    Not much difference ultimately.

    While macs are designed such that they're perhaps a little harder to
    penetrate to begin with, and less pieces are available in terms of
    public exploits as a manner to get malicious software onto a system
    (such as a keylogger or some program that phoned home periodically).
    But that's a moot point, if you're following the advice of
    reinstalling the operating system to clear off any rogue bad programs
    that might let a very determined and creepy stalker tip off to new
    wherabouts.

    Best Regards,
    --
    Todd H.
    http://www.toddh.net/
     
    Todd H., Jan 15, 2006
    #2
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  3. Lars Guest

    Of course. you should never assume these things, and I'm pretty sure
    that every computer has a built in un-chanageble serial number which is
    attached to the motherboard.
     
    Lars, Jan 15, 2006
    #3
  4. Jim Watt Guest

    On 15 Jan 2006 00:42:43 -0800, "Lars" <> wrote:

    > I'm pretty sure
    >that every computer has a built in un-chanageble serial number which is
    >attached to the motherboard.


    Please explain how this is done for the benefit of those of
    us who don't understand quite how this is done and how its
    included in internet messages.
    --
    Jim Watt
    http://www.gibnet.com
     
    Jim Watt, Jan 15, 2006
    #4
  5. Guest

    Jim Watt wrote:
    > On 15 Jan 2006 00:42:43 -0800, "Lars" <> wrote:
    >
    > > I'm pretty sure
    > >that every computer has a built in un-chanageble serial number which is
    > >attached to the motherboard.

    >
    > Please explain how this is done for the benefit of those of
    > us who don't understand quite how this is done and how its
    > included in internet messages.
    > --
    > Jim Watt
    > http://www.gibnet.com


    Yes! (Although I doubtless won't be able to pretend to completely
    understand your answer, I am interested in the subject and) by all
    means please do!

    Cori
     
    , Jan 15, 2006
    #5
  6. Jim Watt Guest

    On 15 Jan 2006 03:00:54 -0800, wrote:

    >Jim Watt wrote:
    >> On 15 Jan 2006 00:42:43 -0800, "Lars" <> wrote:
    >>
    >> > I'm pretty sure
    >> >that every computer has a built in un-chanageble serial number which is
    >> >attached to the motherboard.

    >>
    >> Please explain how this is done for the benefit of those of
    >> us who don't understand quite how this is done and how its
    >> included in internet messages.
    >> --
    >> Jim Watt
    >> http://www.gibnet.com

    >
    >Yes! (Although I doubtless won't be able to pretend to completely
    >understand your answer, I am interested in the subject and) by all
    >means please do!
    >
    >Cori


    1. Each network card/device has a unique number, although it can be
    changed

    2. Intel processors have a unique ID which can be turned off

    3. MS Windows maintains unique identifiers derrived from the hardware
    and software in the actual configuatarion.

    4. When you use the Internet you are given a IP address which may only
    be leased to you for the session, the ISP logs this the time and
    date.

    5. Spyware programs and others can identify which computer you are
    using as can cookies legitimatly used to maintain state with web
    servers which are otherwise stateless.

    Otherwise its down to paranoia.
    --
    Jim Watt
    http://www.gibnet.com
     
    Jim Watt, Jan 15, 2006
    #6
  7. Dave Guest

    wrote:
    > Does a specific computer have a specific identity regardless of who is
    > using it and where?


    Each will have a MAC address, although I'm not sure if that is passed
    around the internet, unless you have some sort of spyware or virus. As
    someone else said, that can be changed, but I'm sure the details of how
    to do it would depend on the hardware and so might not always be possible.

    Sun workstations have a hostid

    sparrow /export/home/drkirkby % hostid
    80aaf46d

    which some software uses (mainly for licensing issues). That can be
    changed, but it is a bit risky, since if you get it wrong, you can end
    up with a dead system that needs a chip replaced - not a particulary
    difficult task as it is socketed on all them I know.

    And of course, as someone else mentioned, there is spyware.

    If you are really bothered, upgrade Windows to Solaris. I'm not aware of
    any viruses for Solaris, and none of the usual winblows exploits will
    work. That is not to say a Solaris system can't be compromised, but it
    is far more difficult since it is much more secure than winblows. Few
    know anything much about it either, which again is to your advantage.
    Solaris on x86 (or SPARC hardware for that matter) is a free download,
    although it is a large download. There are 4 CDs or a DVD image

    http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/

    You can buy a CD for a nominal fee from Sun if you can't download it due
    to bandwidth limitations. Both 32 and 64-bit is supported on x86. For
    SPARC hardware, you *must* have a 64-bit system, but that should not
    bother you.
    --
    Dave K

    http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/

    Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
    It is always of the form: month-year@domain. Hitting reply will work
    for a couple of months only. Later set it manually. The month is
    always written in 3 letters (e.g. Jan, not January etc)
     
    Dave, Jan 15, 2006
    #7
  8. Todd H. <> wrote:
    [deleted]

    > Assuming their computer is not compromised with a key logger, or
    > anything that phoned home and tipped an individual snoop off to the
    > physical machine's new whereabouts, it would be fairly untraceable,
    > at least by mortals.


    The original poster ("Cori") did not set clear limits on the scope of
    the "spying" part of "someone who was spying before", so I guess it
    needs to be said, that not only the computer must not be compromised,
    but also the 'local' network, if any, to which that computer is
    connected must not be compromised. In other words, if the *network* has
    been compromised, re-installing the *computer* on that network will do
    little good.

    [deleted]
     
    Frank Slootweg, Jan 15, 2006
    #8
  9. Todd H. Guest

    Jim Watt <_way> writes:
    >
    > 1. Each network card/device has a unique number, although it can be
    > changed
    >
    > 2. Intel processors have a unique ID which can be turned off
    >
    > 3. MS Windows maintains unique identifiers derrived from the hardware
    > and software in the actual configuatarion.
    >
    > 4. When you use the Internet you are given a IP address which may only
    > be leased to you for the session, the ISP logs this the time and
    > date.
    >
    > 5. Spyware programs and others can identify which computer you are
    > using as can cookies legitimatly used to maintain state with web
    > servers which are otherwise stateless.
    >
    > Otherwise its down to paranoia.


    And none of the first 4 things are passed around in internet messages
    unless there is malware on the computer that is hunting them down.

    Reinstalling the operating systems removes those threats from the
    possibility list.

    The only possible exception are Microsoft office documents containing
    their unique identifier number that could be traceable back to you by
    a very diligent and resourceful spy. I'm not sure, however, if
    reinstalling office on a fresh OS would yield a different unique ID.

    --
    Todd H.
    http://www.toddh.net/
     
    Todd H., Jan 15, 2006
    #9
  10. Ant Guest

    "Volker Birk" wrote:

    > Lars <> wrote:
    >> I'm pretty sure that every computer has a built in un-chanageble
    >> serial number which is attached to the motherboard.

    >
    > So please show me, how I can read this number out of a simple PC or
    > a simple Macintosh.


    Intel and some other processors support a CPUID instruction which
    returns information about the CPU. The PIII added a serial number,
    and caused a lot of fuss about privacy issues at the time. Intel
    removed the serial number with the Pentium 4. Macs using a Motorola
    chip don't have this feature.

    Privacy issues:
    http://www.cdt.org/privacy/issues/pentium3/
    CPUID guide:
    http://www.paradicesoftware.com/specs/cpuid/index.htm
    Intel processor serial no. FAQ
    http://support.intel.com/support/processors/pentiumiii/sb/CS-007579.htm
    Intel documentation (pdf):
    http://download.intel.com/design/Xeon/applnots/24161829.pdf
     
    Ant, Jan 15, 2006
    #10
  11. Todd H. <> wrote:
    > Jim Watt <_way> writes:
    > >
    > > 1. Each network card/device has a unique number, although it can be
    > > changed
    > >
    > > 2. Intel processors have a unique ID which can be turned off
    > >
    > > 3. MS Windows maintains unique identifiers derrived from the hardware
    > > and software in the actual configuatarion.
    > >
    > > 4. When you use the Internet you are given a IP address which may only
    > > be leased to you for the session, the ISP logs this the time and
    > > date.
    > >
    > > 5. Spyware programs and others can identify which computer you are
    > > using as can cookies legitimatly used to maintain state with web
    > > servers which are otherwise stateless.
    > >
    > > Otherwise its down to paranoia.

    >
    > And none of the first 4 things are passed around in internet messages
    > unless there is malware on the computer that is hunting them down.


    It depends on what the "spy" is doing. The OP said that the spy is
    looking at what the 'victim' is doing online. *That* part relates to
    "internet messages" (which probably also includes information on
    websites). But perhaps the spy is doing *more* than that. For example if
    the spy has access to the victim's local network (see my earlier
    response), (s)he could match a MAC address to an IP address. Later, when
    the IP is changed, (s)he can again determine the IP because (s)he knows
    the MAC. Next (s)he can use the IP to trace the victim in "internet
    messages". So the MAC address *can* be relevant.

    Bottom line: It all depends on which pieces of information the spy has
    access to and to which pieces (s)he has no access.
     
    Frank Slootweg, Jan 15, 2006
    #11
  12. Unruh Guest

    "Ant" <> writes:

    >"Volker Birk" wrote:


    >> Lars <> wrote:
    >>> I'm pretty sure that every computer has a built in un-chanageble
    >>> serial number which is attached to the motherboard.

    >>
    >> So please show me, how I can read this number out of a simple PC or
    >> a simple Macintosh.


    >Intel and some other processors support a CPUID instruction which
    >returns information about the CPU. The PIII added a serial number,
    >and caused a lot of fuss about privacy issues at the time. Intel
    >removed the serial number with the Pentium 4. Macs using a Motorola
    >chip don't have this feature.


    Of course using that feature means that you have to be able to send teh cpu
    the appropriate instruction. If the attacker has such control he already
    has more than enough info to figure out who he is dealing with.
    (Note that OS like Linux disable the serial number info. AFAIK the cpuid
    does not return anything but generic info (what cpu, what speed, etc)
    rather than any specific identifier.
    Of course with enough generic info one can often figure out the exact
    identity.


    >Privacy issues:
    >http://www.cdt.org/privacy/issues/pentium3/
    >CPUID guide:
    >http://www.paradicesoftware.com/specs/cpuid/index.htm
    >Intel processor serial no. FAQ
    >http://support.intel.com/support/processors/pentiumiii/sb/CS-007579.htm
    >Intel documentation (pdf):
    >http://download.intel.com/design/Xeon/applnots/24161829.pdf
     
    Unruh, Jan 15, 2006
    #12
  13. Unruh Guest

    Frank Slootweg <> writes:

    >Todd H. <> wrote:
    >> Jim Watt <_way> writes:
    >> >
    >> > 1. Each network card/device has a unique number, although it can be
    >> > changed
    >> >
    >> > 2. Intel processors have a unique ID which can be turned off
    >> >
    >> > 3. MS Windows maintains unique identifiers derrived from the hardware
    >> > and software in the actual configuatarion.
    >> >
    >> > 4. When you use the Internet you are given a IP address which may only
    >> > be leased to you for the session, the ISP logs this the time and
    >> > date.
    >> >
    >> > 5. Spyware programs and others can identify which computer you are
    >> > using as can cookies legitimatly used to maintain state with web
    >> > servers which are otherwise stateless.
    >> >
    >> > Otherwise its down to paranoia.

    >>
    >> And none of the first 4 things are passed around in internet messages
    >> unless there is malware on the computer that is hunting them down.


    > It depends on what the "spy" is doing. The OP said that the spy is
    >looking at what the 'victim' is doing online. *That* part relates to
    >"internet messages" (which probably also includes information on
    >websites). But perhaps the spy is doing *more* than that. For example if
    >the spy has access to the victim's local network (see my earlier
    >response), (s)he could match a MAC address to an IP address. Later, when
    >the IP is changed, (s)he can again determine the IP because (s)he knows
    >the MAC. Next (s)he can use the IP to trace the victim in "internet
    >messages". So the MAC address *can* be relevant.


    There are no MAC to IP databases. the mac is relevant only on the immediate
    local network, and that is the only place where the mac is liable to be
    known. Ie, it is tough (not impossible) but tough) for someone in Ulan
    Bator to find a machine with a specific mac address even if he knows the
    country or city.


    > Bottom line: It all depends on which pieces of information the spy has
    >access to and to which pieces (s)he has no access.
     
    Unruh, Jan 15, 2006
    #13
  14. Guest

    Todd H. wrote:

    > If one wanted to be reasonably certain against being traced to a new
    > location, purchasing a new computer, or completely reinstalling the
    > operating system from original media would be the prescription I'd
    > write.


    I've heard there are such things as programs to rid a computer of any
    spyware and viruses it may have picked up, and am asking what programs
    are best recommended and where can they be obtained? Will this be good
    enough? Thanks.

    Cori
     
    , Jan 15, 2006
    #14
  15. Unruh Guest

    writes:

    >Todd H. wrote:


    >> If one wanted to be reasonably certain against being traced to a new
    >> location, purchasing a new computer, or completely reinstalling the
    >> operating system from original media would be the prescription I'd
    >> write.


    >I've heard there are such things as programs to rid a computer of any
    >spyware and viruses it may have picked up, and am asking what programs
    >are best recommended and where can they be obtained? Will this be good
    >enough? Thanks.


    Good enough for what. a stool may be good enough for reaching a jar on a
    shelf in your cupboard, but it is not very good for getting to the moon.



    The best idea is to use an operating system which is not susceptible to the
    viruses, spyware, etc out there. (Your sysytem should NOT have picked up
    anything that you did not want on there).
    If your system does pick up something, backup, replace the operating system
    completely and restore your own material from the backup (trying to make
    sure that nasties are not hidden in your own materail)
     
    Unruh, Jan 16, 2006
    #15
  16. Todd H. Guest

    writes:

    > Todd H. wrote:
    >
    > > If one wanted to be reasonably certain against being traced to a new
    > > location, purchasing a new computer, or completely reinstalling the
    > > operating system from original media would be the prescription I'd
    > > write.

    >
    > I've heard there are such things as programs to rid a computer of any
    > spyware and viruses it may have picked up, and am asking what programs
    > are best recommended and where can they be obtained? Will this be good
    > enough? Thanks.


    Such programs can only deal (at best) with known threats. Programs in
    wide deployment that the program knows about. There are no
    guarantees it'll get everything, and it'd be useless against a
    custom-written bit of nastyware. Again, the sophistication of hte
    attacker has to figure in.

    As with any time you have the slightest suspicion that a rogue program
    may have entered your system, the only way to be certain that it is
    rid from teh system is to reformat the disk, and reinstall the OS from
    original media.

    Best Regards,
    --
    Todd H.
    http://www.toddh.net/
     
    Todd H., Jan 16, 2006
    #16
  17. Guest

    > The original poster ("Cori") did not set clear limits on the scope of
    > the "spying" part of "someone who was spying before", so I guess it
    > needs to be said, that not only the computer must not be compromised,
    > but also the 'local' network, if any, to which that computer is
    > connected must not be compromised. In other words, if the *network* has
    > been compromised, re-installing the *computer* on that network will do
    > little good.


    Well, of course not. For one, when you're trying to be mysterious you
    don't get specific, for another, when you're asking a question of
    possible benefit to many people you make the question as broad as
    possible.

    Cori
     
    , Jan 16, 2006
    #17
  18. Guest

    > It depends on what the "spy" is doing. The OP said that the spy is
    > looking at what the 'victim' is doing online. *That* part relates to
    > "internet messages" (which probably also includes information on
    > websites). But perhaps the spy is doing *more* than that. For example if
    > the spy has access to the victim's local network (see my earlier
    > response), (s)he could match a MAC address to an IP address. Later, when
    > the IP is changed, (s)he can again determine the IP because (s)he knows
    > the MAC. Next (s)he can use the IP to trace the victim in "internet
    > messages". So the MAC address *can* be relevant.
    >
    > Bottom line: It all depends on which pieces of information the spy has
    > access to and to which pieces (s)he has no access.


    Well, I have good news and bad news. The good news is I asked this
    question at Macintosh forums and was ABSOLUTELY ASSURED "there are no
    viruses or spyware for Mac OSX."

    To which I replied: Thanks, you guys make me feel so much better.
    This is one reason I bought a Mac, but I was afraid in the several
    years since purchasing it, some new viruses and spyware may have been
    invented for it.

    (You know, just to show them I'm keeping on top of things.)

    The bad news is, I happen to KNOW ON GOOD AUTHORITY that this computer
    user (let's call him "the victim") was using Mac OSX and that this
    other computer user (let's call him "the spy") KNEW that "the victim"
    had visited certain websites. ("The spy" was trying to prevent "the
    victim" from viewing a certain website on which "the victim" would like
    to view information that is not in any way private or confidential.)
    "The victim" has asked me to ask around whether if they do all these
    things (upgrading their Mac to a higher version of OSX, changing their
    ISP and their email) does "the spy" still have a secret way of
    identifying "the victim" through the computer itself?

    "The victim" will be most greatful for your replies.

    Cori
     
    , Jan 16, 2006
    #18
  19. Todd H. Guest

    writes:

    > Well, I have good news and bad news. The good news is I asked this
    > question at Macintosh forums and was ABSOLUTELY ASSURED "there are
    > no viruses or spyware for Mac OSX."


    That seems like something that mac forum users cannot absolutely
    assure.

    Nothing keeps a clever individual from writing and installing such
    software if they have access to the computer. A cron job written in
    perl that spits our the URL cache of all known web browsers on the
    system and makes a connection dumping that information out via netcat
    to a remote internet address... can certainly be done if the attacker
    has local or remote access to the computer (e.g. old roommate or
    s.o.). And because it's custom written, nothing on the mac would
    redflag it, and because there's no widespread malware for the mac,
    software level egress firewall filtering on a per application basis
    (e.g. anything to block outbound netcat connections) is in place, and
    even if there was malware protection on teh machine, the custom
    written solution would have a signature that no antivirus vendor would
    have bothered to write for...because it's custom.

    > To which I replied: Thanks, you guys make me feel so much better.
    > This is one reason I bought a Mac, but I was afraid in the several
    > years since purchasing it, some new viruses and spyware may have
    > been invented for it.
    >
    > (You know, just to show them I'm keeping on top of things.)
    >
    > The bad news is, I happen to KNOW ON GOOD AUTHORITY that this computer
    > user (let's call him "the victim") was using Mac OSX and that this
    > other computer user (let's call him "the spy") KNEW that "the victim"
    > had visited certain websites.


    Here's where it gets interesting.

    Now we all wanna know "how." What was the relationship between the
    victim and the spy? Was the spy random remote dude, or was it
    someone who had frequent and unfettered access to teh machine? What
    was the computing background of the spy? Someone capable of writing
    some software or simple scripts?

    > ("The spy" was trying to prevent "the victim" from viewing a certain
    > website on which "the victim" would like to view information that is
    > not in any way private or confidential.) "The victim" has asked me
    > to ask around whether if they do all these things (upgrading their
    > Mac to a higher version of OSX, changing their ISP and their email)
    > does "the spy" still have a secret way of identifying "the victim"
    > through the computer itself?
    >
    > "The victim" will be most greatful for your replies.


    Not enough information is provided about what sort of access the spy
    had to the victim's computer to perform a forensic analysis.

    I would certainly continue to recommend the merits of a complete
    re-installation of the original operating system (or a fresh
    installation of a newer version of that operating system) from
    original media... while the computer is disconnected from the 'net.



    Best Regards,
    --
    Todd H.
    http://www.toddh.net/
     
    Todd H., Jan 16, 2006
    #19
  20. Guest

    Todd H. wrote:

    > Here's where it gets interesting.
    >
    > Now we all wanna know "how." What was the relationship between the
    > victim and the spy? Was the spy random remote dude, or was it
    > someone who had frequent and unfettered access to teh machine? What
    > was the computing background of the spy? Someone capable of writing
    > some software or simple scripts?


    > Not enough information is provided about what sort of access the spy
    > had to the victim's computer to perform a forensic analysis.


    "The spy" never saw "the victim" or his computer in person. "The spy"
    helps maintain the website in question (which, again, is not private or
    confidential in ANY WAY except for the usual membership
    requirements/logging in--"the victim" was NOT spying--just got on the
    wrong side of a few vindictive individuals there) and "the spy" has
    access to some sort of program available to message board moderators
    (so supposedly they can tell where the messages are coming from?) "The
    victim" does not believe "the spy" actually did anything bad to his
    machine, just that he has it in for him regarding having access to that
    one particular website.

    > I would certainly continue to recommend the merits of a complete
    > re-installation of the original operating system (or a fresh
    > installation of a newer version of that operating system) from
    > original media... while the computer is disconnected from the 'net.
    >
    >
    >
    > Best Regards,
    > --
    > Todd H.
    > http://www.toddh.net/


    Hey, Todd, stupid question: if the connector/cable/what-have-you is
    unplugged and internet connect turned off during the operation, and the
    operating system newly installed, will this in any way affect files
    saved on "the victim"'s Hard Drive or other things such as favorites
    saved on a browser? I mean, it's just replacing the OS, right? Not
    everything stored everywhere on the whole machine? Thanks.

    Cori
     
    , Jan 16, 2006
    #20
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