Complicated music downloading legality question

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by vbMark, Nov 1, 2004.

  1. vbMark

    vbMark Guest

    Hi there,

    I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am correct
    in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back this up.

    Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I purchased.
    It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I download this same
    music in CD format using a P2P program I am not breaking any laws. I have
    already paid for the privilege of listening to this music.

    My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase another
    copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.

    At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my wishes.

    Who is right? Where is the evidence?

    Thanks!
     
    vbMark, Nov 1, 2004
    #1
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  2. vbMark

    Avenger© Guest

    On 1 Nov 2004 12:34:09 GMT, vbMark <> wrote:

    >Hi there,
    >
    >I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am correct
    >in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back this up.
    >
    >Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I purchased.
    >It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I download this same
    >music in CD format using a P2P program I am not breaking any laws. I have
    >already paid for the privilege of listening to this music.
    >
    >My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase another
    >copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.
    >
    >At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my wishes.
    >
    >Who is right? Where is the evidence?
    >
    >Thanks!


    Your opponent is correct. The single copy you own is just that, you
    have no right to reproduce it in any way. The copyright refers to each
    and every single copy. You as the end user agree not to copy or
    commercially replay, sell or otherwise use the copyrighted material.

    Google returns over 16,000,000 hits on music copyright. You do your
    own search for `evidence' :eek:)
    --
    Avenger©
    *I DETEST Spam - A Spam Hater since 1951*
     
    Avenger©, Nov 1, 2004
    #2
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  3. vbMark

    Ingeborg Guest

    vbMark <> wrote in
    news:Xns95944D005E372noemailcom@130.133.1.4:

    > Hi there,
    >
    > I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am
    > correct in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back
    > this up.
    >
    > Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I
    > purchased. It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I
    > download this same music in CD format using a P2P program I am not
    > breaking any laws. I have already paid for the privilege of listening
    > to this music.
    >


    Depends on where you live, I think. In my country (the Netherlands) I
    have the right to create a backup for own use of all media I purchased.

    So in your case I *could* have made a backup of the tape when it was new,
    and I *could* have burned it to CD.

    But I didn't, and I don't know if I have the right to correct that after
    my tape died. You could also say I payed for the quality of an analog
    tape, and not for a digital CD.
     
    Ingeborg, Nov 1, 2004
    #3
  4. vbMark

    vbMark Guest

    Avenger© <> wrote in
    news::

    > On 1 Nov 2004 12:34:09 GMT, vbMark <> wrote:
    >
    >>Hi there,
    >>
    >>I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am
    >>correct in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back
    >>this up.
    >>
    >>Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I
    >>purchased. It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I
    >>download this same music in CD format using a P2P program I am not
    >>breaking any laws. I have already paid for the privilege of listening
    >>to this music.
    >>
    >>My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase
    >>another copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.
    >>
    >>At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my
    >>wishes.
    >>
    >>Who is right? Where is the evidence?
    >>
    >>Thanks!

    >
    > Your opponent is correct. The single copy you own is just that, you
    > have no right to reproduce it in any way. The copyright refers to each
    > and every single copy. You as the end user agree not to copy or
    > commercially replay, sell or otherwise use the copyrighted material.
    >
    > Google returns over 16,000,000 hits on music copyright. You do your
    > own search for `evidence' :eek:)
    > --
    > Avenger©
    > *I DETEST Spam - A Spam Hater since 1951*


    Ok, I did like you said and did a Google on music copyright and found
    this:

    http://www.lib.jmu.edu/org/mla/FAQ/Fair Use/Personal Fair Use.asp

    Can't I assume that any copy made for my personal use is fair?

    Generally, personal use has not been questioned. However, disseminating
    the results of personal use may not be a "fair" use.

    Recent legislation (P.L. 102-563) has allowed for personal duplication of
    sound recordings for private, noncommercial use (see, for example, H.R.
    Rep. 102-780, pt. 1, p. 20). (See also NACS & AAPbib guidebook)
     
    vbMark, Nov 1, 2004
    #4
  5. vbMark

    Avenger© Guest

    On 1 Nov 2004 13:05:34 GMT, vbMark <> wrote:

    >Avenger© <> wrote in
    >news::
    >
    >> On 1 Nov 2004 12:34:09 GMT, vbMark <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Hi there,
    >>>
    >>>I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am
    >>>correct in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back
    >>>this up.
    >>>
    >>>Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I
    >>>purchased. It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I
    >>>download this same music in CD format using a P2P program I am not
    >>>breaking any laws. I have already paid for the privilege of listening
    >>>to this music.
    >>>
    >>>My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase
    >>>another copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.
    >>>
    >>>At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my
    >>>wishes.
    >>>
    >>>Who is right? Where is the evidence?
    >>>
    >>>Thanks!

    >>
    >> Your opponent is correct. The single copy you own is just that, you
    >> have no right to reproduce it in any way. The copyright refers to each
    >> and every single copy. You as the end user agree not to copy or
    >> commercially replay, sell or otherwise use the copyrighted material.
    >>
    >> Google returns over 16,000,000 hits on music copyright. You do your
    >> own search for `evidence' :eek:)
    >> --
    >> Avenger©
    >> *I DETEST Spam - A Spam Hater since 1951*

    >
    >Ok, I did like you said and did a Google on music copyright and found
    >this:
    >
    >http://www.lib.jmu.edu/org/mla/FAQ/Fair Use/Personal Fair Use.asp
    >
    >Can't I assume that any copy made for my personal use is fair?
    >
    >Generally, personal use has not been questioned. However, disseminating
    >the results of personal use may not be a "fair" use.
    >
    >Recent legislation (P.L. 102-563) has allowed for personal duplication of
    >sound recordings for private, noncommercial use (see, for example, H.R.
    >Rep. 102-780, pt. 1, p. 20). (See also NACS & AAPbib guidebook)


    Copyright law and interpretation of the law does vary from country to
    country. If you read ALL of the pages of the below link, it may help
    further.

    As the end user, you have a right to privately (ie: not publicly or
    for profit) play the music you purchased. It appears you do not have
    the right to reproduce that work (music) onto another medium, without
    the copyright owner's permission.

    Take the example of using P2P software, you are downloading a
    copyrighted material, which the owner has not expressly permitted you
    to do. You are therefore infringing on their copyright, by not paying
    for the music or using the music, as the owner originally intended.

    You, as the end user, are only permitted to play and use the music
    within the terms of use. You don't own the music or music media (CD or
    tape) as such, more so, that it is on a permanent `loan' (for the want
    of a better word) to you to use within those terms and conditions.

    http://www.digitalproducer.com/pages/cd_audio_rights_and_wrongs.htm
    --
    Avenger©
    *I DETEST Spam - A Spam Hater since 1951*
     
    Avenger©, Nov 1, 2004
    #5
  6. vbMark

    Secret S Guest

    "Ingeborg" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns95948DFED570Babinvalid@130.133.1.4...
    > vbMark <> wrote in
    > news:Xns95944D005E372noemailcom@130.133.1.4:
    >
    >> Hi there,
    >>
    >> I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am
    >> correct in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back
    >> this up.
    >>
    >> Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I
    >> purchased. It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I
    >> download this same music in CD format using a P2P program I am not
    >> breaking any laws. I have already paid for the privilege of listening
    >> to this music.
    >>

    >
    > Depends on where you live, I think. In my country (the Netherlands) I
    > have the right to create a backup for own use of all media I purchased.
    >
    > So in your case I *could* have made a backup of the tape when it was new,
    > and I *could* have burned it to CD.
    >
    > But I didn't, and I don't know if I have the right to correct that after
    > my tape died. You could also say I payed for the quality of an analog
    > tape, and not for a digital CD.


    Something else to be aware of. Many P2P networks have miss-labelled tracks
    on them. So if you think you are d/l a song that you already own, when you
    listen to it then you could find you've d/l something that you don't own the
    right to use.

    I've d/l tracks that have been different versions of the same song (i.e. a
    live version) or sometimes even entirely different songs by different
    artists.

    If you want to stay on the right side of the law, then use a pay online
    music service.

    **SS**
     
    Secret S, Nov 1, 2004
    #6
  7. "Secret S" <> wrote in message
    news:41863ef1$0$1839$...
    >
    > "Ingeborg" <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns95948DFED570Babinvalid@130.133.1.4...
    >> vbMark <> wrote in
    >> news:Xns95944D005E372noemailcom@130.133.1.4:
    >>
    >>> Hi there,
    >>>
    >>> I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am
    >>> correct in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back
    >>> this up.
    >>>
    >>> Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I
    >>> purchased. It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I
    >>> download this same music in CD format using a P2P program I am not
    >>> breaking any laws. I have already paid for the privilege of listening
    >>> to this music.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Depends on where you live, I think. In my country (the Netherlands) I
    >> have the right to create a backup for own use of all media I purchased.
    >>
    >> So in your case I *could* have made a backup of the tape when it was new,
    >> and I *could* have burned it to CD.
    >>
    >> But I didn't, and I don't know if I have the right to correct that after
    >> my tape died. You could also say I payed for the quality of an analog
    >> tape, and not for a digital CD.

    >
    > Something else to be aware of. Many P2P networks have miss-labelled tracks
    > on them. So if you think you are d/l a song that you already own, when you
    > listen to it then you could find you've d/l something that you don't own
    > the right to use.
    >
    > I've d/l tracks that have been different versions of the same song (i.e. a
    > live version) or sometimes even entirely different songs by different
    > artists.
    >
    > If you want to stay on the right side of the law, then use a pay online
    > music service.
    >
    > **SS**

    Yeh, and get ripped off yet again !
     
    Dr Hackenbush, Nov 1, 2004
    #7
  8. In article <>,
    says...
    > You, as the end user, are only permitted to play and use the music
    > within the terms of use. You don't own the music or music media (CD or
    > tape) as such, more so, that it is on a permanent `loan' (for the want
    > of a better word) to you to use within those terms and conditions.
    >


    You're full of shit. I don't own the media? Who does own it, then --
    the music company?

    I can resell it in any one of hundreds of places without penalty. Not
    only that, but the new owner can resell it and keep all the money --
    they don't owe the music company or the artist a penny.

    Are eBay, Amazon, and dozens of other places breaking the law by
    participating in the sales of used CDs? If they were breaking the law,
    then wouldn't they be prime targets for an enforcement action? But
    they're not, becouse they're not doing anything illegal.

    Get a clue before you start ranting here, idiot.

    Jacques
     
    Jacques Clouseau, Nov 1, 2004
    #8
  9. vbMark

    Max Guest

    In article <Xns95944D005E372noemailcom@130.133.1.4>, vbMark
    <> wrote:

    > Hi there,
    >
    > I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am correct
    > in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back this up.
    >
    > Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I purchased.
    > It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I download this same
    > music in CD format using a P2P program I am not breaking any laws. I have
    > already paid for the privilege of listening to this music.
    >
    > My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase another
    > copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.
    >
    > At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my wishes.
    >
    > Who is right? Where is the evidence?


    You are right -- it makes all the difference in the world that you have
    purchased that music already.

    Your friend is making the mistake of confusing the article of the
    cassette with the music on it. If you were talking about a cassette
    purchase, then yes, you should expect the cassette to wear out and have
    no right to another one.
    But you weren't really purchasing the cassette, it is merely the means
    of transmission. You were purchasing the copy of music on it -- and you
    have a right to make copies of that (for your own use only) if you
    decide to.
    You have not purchased that music in all it's available forms, however.
    Only in a form equivalent to the original purchase. If that music
    becomes available in a remastered album, a video, even a remix -- you
    haven't got the right to have that music.

    On the gripping hand, P2P systems are such a major threat there could
    be laws in place where you are that make using them illegal. In such a
    case, you still have the right to have a copy of the music -- it's just
    the method you use to get a good copy now that makes it illegal.
     
    Max, Nov 1, 2004
    #9
  10. vbMark wrote:
    > Hi there,
    >
    > I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am correct
    > in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back this up.
    >
    > Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I purchased.
    > It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I download this same
    > music in CD format using a P2P program I am not breaking any laws. I have
    > already paid for the privilege of listening to this music.
    >
    > My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase another
    > copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.
    >
    > At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my wishes.
    >
    > Who is right? Where is the evidence?
    >
    > Thanks!

    to be completely technical about this, downloading any music, or video
    from a p2p is not illegal. the illegality is only in the distributing.
    the point to be made there though is...if no one is distributing it, who
    is going to be able to download it?

    gideon
     
    Gideon Stargrave, Nov 1, 2004
    #10
  11. vbMark

    Fuzzy Logic Guest

    vbMark <> wrote in
    news:Xns95944D005E372noemailcom@130.133.1.4:

    > I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am
    > correct in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back
    > this up.
    >
    > Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I purchased.
    > It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I download this
    > same music in CD format using a P2P program I am not breaking any laws.
    > I have already paid for the privilege of listening to this music.
    >
    > My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase
    > another copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.
    >
    > At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my
    > wishes.
    >
    > Who is right? Where is the evidence?


    The answer is, it depends. For starters we need to know what country you're
    in. The law is quite different in Canada compared to the US for example.
     
    Fuzzy Logic, Nov 1, 2004
    #11
  12. vbMark

    Avenger© Guest

    On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:50:05 -0500, Jacques Clouseau
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    > says...
    >> You, as the end user, are only permitted to play and use the music
    >> within the terms of use. You don't own the music or music media (CD or
    >> tape) as such, more so, that it is on a permanent `loan' (for the want
    >> of a better word) to you to use within those terms and conditions.
    >>

    >
    >You're full of shit. I don't own the media? Who does own it, then --
    >the music company?
    >
    >I can resell it in any one of hundreds of places without penalty. Not
    >only that, but the new owner can resell it and keep all the money --
    >they don't owe the music company or the artist a penny.
    >
    >Are eBay, Amazon, and dozens of other places breaking the law by
    >participating in the sales of used CDs? If they were breaking the law,
    >then wouldn't they be prime targets for an enforcement action? But
    >they're not, becouse they're not doing anything illegal.
    >
    >Get a clue before you start ranting here, idiot.
    >
    >Jacques


    And fuckstick, your reference is????
    --
    Avenger©
    *I DETEST Spam - A Spam Hater since 1951*
     
    Avenger©, Nov 1, 2004
    #12
  13. vbMark

    vbMark Guest

    Fuzzy Logic <> wrote in
    news:Xns95947F75BF455bobarcabca@198.161.157.145:

    > vbMark <> wrote in
    > news:Xns95944D005E372noemailcom@130.133.1.4:
    >
    >> I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am
    >> correct in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to
    >> back this up.
    >>
    >> Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I
    >> purchased.
    >> It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I download this
    >> same music in CD format using a P2P program I am not breaking any
    >> laws. I have already paid for the privilege of listening to this
    >> music.
    >>
    >> My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase
    >> another copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.
    >>
    >> At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my
    >> wishes.
    >>
    >> Who is right? Where is the evidence?

    >
    > The answer is, it depends. For starters we need to know what country
    > you're in. The law is quite different in Canada compared to the US for
    > example.
    >
    >


    US
     
    vbMark, Nov 1, 2004
    #13
  14. vbMark

    pcbutts1 Guest

    Just do it and don't tell nobody.

    --


    The best live web video on the internet http://www.seedsv.com/webdemo.htm
    Sharpvision simply the best http://www.seedsv.com



    "vbMark" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns959452538465Dnoemailcom@130.133.1.4...
    > Avenger© <> wrote in
    > news::
    >
    >> On 1 Nov 2004 12:34:09 GMT, vbMark <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Hi there,
    >>>
    >>>I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am
    >>>correct in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back
    >>>this up.
    >>>
    >>>Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I
    >>>purchased. It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I
    >>>download this same music in CD format using a P2P program I am not
    >>>breaking any laws. I have already paid for the privilege of listening
    >>>to this music.
    >>>
    >>>My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase
    >>>another copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.
    >>>
    >>>At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my
    >>>wishes.
    >>>
    >>>Who is right? Where is the evidence?
    >>>
    >>>Thanks!

    >>
    >> Your opponent is correct. The single copy you own is just that, you
    >> have no right to reproduce it in any way. The copyright refers to each
    >> and every single copy. You as the end user agree not to copy or
    >> commercially replay, sell or otherwise use the copyrighted material.
    >>
    >> Google returns over 16,000,000 hits on music copyright. You do your
    >> own search for `evidence' :eek:)
    >> --
    >> Avenger©
    >> *I DETEST Spam - A Spam Hater since 1951*

    >
    > Ok, I did like you said and did a Google on music copyright and found
    > this:
    >
    > http://www.lib.jmu.edu/org/mla/FAQ/Fair Use/Personal Fair Use.asp
    >
    > Can't I assume that any copy made for my personal use is fair?
    >
    > Generally, personal use has not been questioned. However, disseminating
    > the results of personal use may not be a "fair" use.
    >
    > Recent legislation (P.L. 102-563) has allowed for personal duplication of
    > sound recordings for private, noncommercial use (see, for example, H.R.
    > Rep. 102-780, pt. 1, p. 20). (See also NACS & AAPbib guidebook)
    >
     
    pcbutts1, Nov 2, 2004
    #14
  15. vbMark

    Millimeter Guest

    On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:06:59 GMT, Max <> wrote:

    >In article <Xns95944D005E372noemailcom@130.133.1.4>, vbMark
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> Hi there,
    >>
    >> I got in to an argument with someone over this issue. I think I am correct
    >> in my thinking but was wondering if there is something to back this up.
    >>
    >> Here is what I think: I have a cassette tape of music that I purchased.
    >> It is old and is wearing out. My thought is that if I download this same
    >> music in CD format using a P2P program I am not breaking any laws. I have
    >> already paid for the privilege of listening to this music.
    >>
    >> My opponent says no, if the medium is worn out you need to purchase another
    >> copy. Downloading of music via P2P is illegal.
    >>
    >> At this point I have nothing to base my argument on other than my wishes.
    >>
    >> Who is right? Where is the evidence?

    >
    >You are right -- it makes all the difference in the world that you have
    >purchased that music already.
    >
    >Your friend is making the mistake of confusing the article of the
    >cassette with the music on it. If you were talking about a cassette
    >purchase, then yes, you should expect the cassette to wear out and have
    >no right to another one.
    >But you weren't really purchasing the cassette, it is merely the means
    >of transmission. You were purchasing the copy of music on it -- and you
    >have a right to make copies of that (for your own use only) if you
    >decide to.


    In truth, OP purchased the "medium" which is the piece of plastic the
    music is recorded on. They have not purchased the music at all,
    merely rented a license to listen to it from that piece of plastic.

    OP would be entitled to copy from their original piece of plastic to a
    second piece of plastic for extending their license to listen, as long
    as (theoretical at best) only 1 piece of plastic is in use at any
    given moment.

    Potentially OP should be entitled to have the original piece of
    plastic replaced at a nominal fee (cost of materials) but IMHO, one
    would need an exensive collection to make a worthwhile case of it as
    the publisher would likely laugh at the suggestion.

    Millimeter

    >You have not purchased that music in all it's available forms, however.
    >Only in a form equivalent to the original purchase. If that music
    >becomes available in a remastered album, a video, even a remix -- you
    >haven't got the right to have that music.
    >
    >On the gripping hand, P2P systems are such a major threat there could
    >be laws in place where you are that make using them illegal. In such a
    >case, you still have the right to have a copy of the music -- it's just
    >the method you use to get a good copy now that makes it illegal.
     
    Millimeter, Nov 12, 2004
    #15
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