Compensation

Discussion in 'MCAD' started by Lydon Bergin, Jan 9, 2006.

  1. Lydon Bergin

    Lydon Bergin Guest

    Hey all,
    I recently passed Exam 070-306 to get my MCP Certification. I am a
    second semester Junior at a University (4.0 CIS GPA, 3.4 Overall)
    majoring in CIS. I also have a MOS certification.

    I expect a company to be offering me a job doing VB.NET Development
    and I was just wondering if anyone could give me any advice on what kind
    of Salary I should ask for? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Lydon Bergin
    lydonbergin[{AT}]hotmail.com
    Lydon Bergin, Jan 9, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. January 9, 2006

    I definitely suggest looking at the current and past versions of the MCP
    Salary Survey at mcpmag.com....!!! :) Good job! (also check out the MCP
    Career Center on the MCP Private Site for local job listings which will give
    you another indication)

    --

    Joseph Bittman
    Microsoft Certified Solution Developer
    Microsoft Most Valuable Professional -- DPM

    Blog/Web Site: http://71.39.42.23/



    "Lydon Bergin" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hey all,
    > I recently passed Exam 070-306 to get my MCP Certification. I am a
    > second semester Junior at a University (4.0 CIS GPA, 3.4 Overall) majoring
    > in CIS. I also have a MOS certification.
    >
    > I expect a company to be offering me a job doing VB.NET Development and
    > I was just wondering if anyone could give me any advice on what kind of
    > Salary I should ask for? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    >
    > Lydon Bergin
    > lydonbergin[{AT}]hotmail.com
    Joseph Bittman MVP MCSD, Jan 9, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Lydon Bergin

    Sean Guest

    I did the cert while in college thing to and I have a question for you.

    Did you find the cert study and test more demanding the college.

    I did...considerably so but I didnt know anyone at the college doing it as
    well so I was never able to get a sounding board on that.

    "Lydon Bergin" wrote:

    > Hey all,
    > I recently passed Exam 070-306 to get my MCP Certification. I am a
    > second semester Junior at a University (4.0 CIS GPA, 3.4 Overall)
    > majoring in CIS. I also have a MOS certification.
    >
    > I expect a company to be offering me a job doing VB.NET Development
    > and I was just wondering if anyone could give me any advice on what kind
    > of Salary I should ask for? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    >
    > Lydon Bergin
    > lydonbergin[{AT}]hotmail.com
    >
    Sean, Jan 12, 2006
    #3
  4. Lydon Bergin

    Lydon Bergin Guest

    "Sean" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I did the cert while in college thing to and I have a question for you.
    >
    > Did you find the cert study and test more demanding the college.
    >
    > I did...considerably so but I didnt know anyone at the college doing it as
    > well so I was never able to get a sounding board on that.
    >


    Yes, I definitely found that I have learned much more useful stuff studying
    for Microsoft Exams than I have in college. In fact, I have learned almost
    nothing in college that will be useful in my future. Of course, I still
    have three semesters to go, so I am hoping it will get a lot more advanced
    really quickly, but I'm not counting on it. I want a Computer Information
    Systems program that is as rigorous as a Computer Science Program. The
    problem with my college (and I would guess others) is that they make you get
    a Minor in Business Administration (About 15-30 hours of, to me, useless
    junk) if you major in CIS. I would love to replace those useless
    Management/Marketing/Introduction to CIS classes with some ball-busting
    VB/SQL work, but that's just not in the curriculum right now.

    What really sucks is that they're changing the curriculum totally next year
    to VB.NET/MSSQL but I won't be able to take advantage of it as I will have
    to finish out my coursework. Oh well, I can teach myself as well as anyone
    can teach me.

    I'm rambling now, but my advice to people that are in college right now like
    me is FIND A JOB IN I.T. It will be hard, it took me almost 2 years, but
    you can do it. You will learn so much more from just being around
    everything that it's not even funny. Between Certifications and Experience,
    I have learned more than any of my peers that will graduate with just a
    degree.

    PS. Anyone need to hire a VB.NET developer with an MCP in Tennessee?? :)
    (I have a great job but I've outgrown it and want to get into development)

    Lydon D. Bergin
    MCP, MOS
    Lydon Bergin, Jan 12, 2006
    #4
  5. Lydon Bergin

    Sean Guest

    Well my degree plan (Info Sys) went from bad to worse so its best to not
    count on it like you say. Mine got so bad I couldnt take it anymore and drop
    out at senior standing once I got MCAD. I get interviews but no job yet,
    without question my MCAD and personal projects are helping me get interviews.
    In fact, just today I had a pretty intense technical interview which I think
    I did pretty well, at least compared to anyone else they will find at my
    green level.

    About CS: Thing is, from what I understand about CS they dont really perpare
    those students for application development. They learn theory, how to make
    database engines programing engines etc. but not presentation
    layer/middleware development.

    In short, in my view certification doesnt get the reputation it deserves.


    "Lydon Bergin" wrote:

    > "Sean" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >I did the cert while in college thing to and I have a question for you.
    > >
    > > Did you find the cert study and test more demanding the college.
    > >
    > > I did...considerably so but I didnt know anyone at the college doing it as
    > > well so I was never able to get a sounding board on that.
    > >

    >
    > Yes, I definitely found that I have learned much more useful stuff studying
    > for Microsoft Exams than I have in college. In fact, I have learned almost
    > nothing in college that will be useful in my future. Of course, I still
    > have three semesters to go, so I am hoping it will get a lot more advanced
    > really quickly, but I'm not counting on it. I want a Computer Information
    > Systems program that is as rigorous as a Computer Science Program. The
    > problem with my college (and I would guess others) is that they make you get
    > a Minor in Business Administration (About 15-30 hours of, to me, useless
    > junk) if you major in CIS. I would love to replace those useless
    > Management/Marketing/Introduction to CIS classes with some ball-busting
    > VB/SQL work, but that's just not in the curriculum right now.
    >
    > What really sucks is that they're changing the curriculum totally next year
    > to VB.NET/MSSQL but I won't be able to take advantage of it as I will have
    > to finish out my coursework. Oh well, I can teach myself as well as anyone
    > can teach me.
    >
    > I'm rambling now, but my advice to people that are in college right now like
    > me is FIND A JOB IN I.T. It will be hard, it took me almost 2 years, but
    > you can do it. You will learn so much more from just being around
    > everything that it's not even funny. Between Certifications and Experience,
    > I have learned more than any of my peers that will graduate with just a
    > degree.
    >
    > PS. Anyone need to hire a VB.NET developer with an MCP in Tennessee?? :)
    > (I have a great job but I've outgrown it and want to get into development)
    >
    > Lydon D. Bergin
    > MCP, MOS
    >
    >
    >
    Sean, Jan 12, 2006
    #5
  6. Lydon Bergin

    Lydon Bergin Guest

    > Well my degree plan (Info Sys) went from bad to worse so its best to not
    > count on it like you say. Mine got so bad I couldnt take it anymore and
    > drop
    > out at senior standing once I got MCAD.

    That is probably the route I would take if I didn't have scholarships, etc,
    that were actually paying me to go to school. Can't really beat that. I
    can definitely understand the feeling of not being able to sit through the
    hours and hours of crap that it puts you through though.

    >I get interviews but no job yet,
    > without question my MCAD and personal projects are helping me get
    > interviews.
    > In fact, just today I had a pretty intense technical interview which I
    > think
    > I did pretty well, at least compared to anyone else they will find at my
    > green level.

    I think with an MCAD can get your foot in the door somewhere, but there's
    nothing like that college degree to an employer. I hate to be a downer, but
    without a degree you'll probably never be paid what you're worth (at least
    that's what I've been told, others may know better).

    > About CS: Thing is, from what I understand about CS they dont really
    > perpare
    > those students for application development. They learn theory, how to make
    > database engines programing engines etc. but not presentation
    > layer/middleware development.

    I agree. CS majors probably don't have to take 2
    accounting/marketing/management classes either though. I know these will
    look good in the event an employer ever actually looks at what I've taken
    (not likely), but I want to learn how to Populate a DataGrid or implement
    Tracing in an application. I think one thing holding back colleges from
    being able to teach this stuff is that they don't have enough professors
    that have any idea what they're doing.

    > In short, in my view certification doesnt get the reputation it deserves.

    Again, I agree. It seems to me that in the workplace a certification more
    of a way for current employees to prove what they know and maybe get a raise
    than it is for an aspiring programmer to get a job. I'm not sure why that
    is, probably because of all the "paper MCXX's" around, which Microsoft is
    actively trying to stop. Maybe with the new generation of certifications
    they will do just that and then when we upgrade our skills employers will
    really know that we know our stuff.


    The way I'm looking at my education is this: when I graduate in Spring 2007
    I'll have 2 1/2 years of full-time experience in I.T. at a mid-sized
    corporation, I'll have a CIS Degree from a pretty good school, and I'll be
    at least MCP, MCAD, and MOS. I think my next employer will give me a second
    look before they do some guy that graduated right beside me with no
    experience and no certs. At least I hope so.
    Lydon Bergin, Jan 12, 2006
    #6
  7. Lydon Bergin

    Sean Guest

    Yeah if you finish school and have the certs you will be prime canidate for
    sure. I personally am not worried about the pay becuase developers make so
    much money anyway but I am concerned about getting in the door.

    Many of the job descriptions that say "degree required" arent really and it
    depends on how much education over all etc... The problem I have had a few
    times is recuiters who are clueless and simply say no degree no resume sumbit
    to client.
    Having said all this I still get enough calls to keep me busy but that silly
    overpriced degree would help me for sure. Most likely would have gotten a job
    before graduating if I stayed in.

    Thing is some employers are clueless about certification. I had one recuiter
    give me an online test which was just as hard as any cert exam I have taken
    and it was three tests! I was insulted that she held more respect to
    "provit.com" then "microsoft.com". I didnt bother finishing the test. Besides
    one question was flat out wrong.

    Company I am currently interivewing with and am excited about requires
    certification within the first year...



    > > Well my degree plan (Info Sys) went from bad to worse so its best to not
    > > count on it like you say. Mine got so bad I couldnt take it anymore and
    > > drop
    > > out at senior standing once I got MCAD.

    > That is probably the route I would take if I didn't have scholarships, etc,
    > that were actually paying me to go to school. Can't really beat that. I
    > can definitely understand the feeling of not being able to sit through the
    > hours and hours of crap that it puts you through though.
    >
    > >I get interviews but no job yet,
    > > without question my MCAD and personal projects are helping me get
    > > interviews.
    > > In fact, just today I had a pretty intense technical interview which I
    > > think
    > > I did pretty well, at least compared to anyone else they will find at my
    > > green level.

    > I think with an MCAD can get your foot in the door somewhere, but there's
    > nothing like that college degree to an employer. I hate to be a downer, but
    > without a degree you'll probably never be paid what you're worth (at least
    > that's what I've been told, others may know better).
    >
    > > About CS: Thing is, from what I understand about CS they dont really
    > > perpare
    > > those students for application development. They learn theory, how to make
    > > database engines programing engines etc. but not presentation
    > > layer/middleware development.

    > I agree. CS majors probably don't have to take 2
    > accounting/marketing/management classes either though. I know these will
    > look good in the event an employer ever actually looks at what I've taken
    > (not likely), but I want to learn how to Populate a DataGrid or implement
    > Tracing in an application. I think one thing holding back colleges from
    > being able to teach this stuff is that they don't have enough professors
    > that have any idea what they're doing.
    >
    > > In short, in my view certification doesnt get the reputation it deserves.

    > Again, I agree. It seems to me that in the workplace a certification more
    > of a way for current employees to prove what they know and maybe get a raise
    > than it is for an aspiring programmer to get a job. I'm not sure why that
    > is, probably because of all the "paper MCXX's" around, which Microsoft is
    > actively trying to stop. Maybe with the new generation of certifications
    > they will do just that and then when we upgrade our skills employers will
    > really know that we know our stuff.
    >
    >
    > The way I'm looking at my education is this: when I graduate in Spring 2007
    > I'll have 2 1/2 years of full-time experience in I.T. at a mid-sized
    > corporation, I'll have a CIS Degree from a pretty good school, and I'll be
    > at least MCP, MCAD, and MOS. I think my next employer will give me a second
    > look before they do some guy that graduated right beside me with no
    > experience and no certs. At least I hope so.
    >
    >
    >
    Sean, Jan 12, 2006
    #7
  8. Lydon Bergin

    Jim Berg Guest

    No one is ever paid what they're worth. But that's another topic. ;-)

    As for what to ask for, the answer is to not ask for anything. Let them
    make the first offer. If you tell them something that is low, you may just
    get it. If you tell them something too high, they'll laugh and hire the next
    guy. If they press you for a price, then they're trying to get a bargain and
    probably aren't worth working for anyway. Didn't they teach you negotiation
    in college? ;-)

    I remember the first job I ever got. They offered me twice the amount that
    I was thinking of asking for. Something like that sticks with you. :)


    "Lydon Bergin" wrote:

    > > Well my degree plan (Info Sys) went from bad to worse so its best to not
    > > count on it like you say. Mine got so bad I couldnt take it anymore and
    > > drop
    > > out at senior standing once I got MCAD.

    > That is probably the route I would take if I didn't have scholarships, etc,
    > that were actually paying me to go to school. Can't really beat that. I
    > can definitely understand the feeling of not being able to sit through the
    > hours and hours of crap that it puts you through though.
    >
    > >I get interviews but no job yet,
    > > without question my MCAD and personal projects are helping me get
    > > interviews.
    > > In fact, just today I had a pretty intense technical interview which I
    > > think
    > > I did pretty well, at least compared to anyone else they will find at my
    > > green level.

    > I think with an MCAD can get your foot in the door somewhere, but there's
    > nothing like that college degree to an employer. I hate to be a downer, but
    > without a degree you'll probably never be paid what you're worth (at least
    > that's what I've been told, others may know better).
    >
    > > About CS: Thing is, from what I understand about CS they dont really
    > > perpare
    > > those students for application development. They learn theory, how to make
    > > database engines programing engines etc. but not presentation
    > > layer/middleware development.

    > I agree. CS majors probably don't have to take 2
    > accounting/marketing/management classes either though. I know these will
    > look good in the event an employer ever actually looks at what I've taken
    > (not likely), but I want to learn how to Populate a DataGrid or implement
    > Tracing in an application. I think one thing holding back colleges from
    > being able to teach this stuff is that they don't have enough professors
    > that have any idea what they're doing.
    >
    > > In short, in my view certification doesnt get the reputation it deserves.

    > Again, I agree. It seems to me that in the workplace a certification more
    > of a way for current employees to prove what they know and maybe get a raise
    > than it is for an aspiring programmer to get a job. I'm not sure why that
    > is, probably because of all the "paper MCXX's" around, which Microsoft is
    > actively trying to stop. Maybe with the new generation of certifications
    > they will do just that and then when we upgrade our skills employers will
    > really know that we know our stuff.
    >
    >
    > The way I'm looking at my education is this: when I graduate in Spring 2007
    > I'll have 2 1/2 years of full-time experience in I.T. at a mid-sized
    > corporation, I'll have a CIS Degree from a pretty good school, and I'll be
    > at least MCP, MCAD, and MOS. I think my next employer will give me a second
    > look before they do some guy that graduated right beside me with no
    > experience and no certs. At least I hope so.
    >
    >
    >
    Jim Berg, Jan 17, 2006
    #8
  9. Lydon Bergin

    Sean Guest

    Many if not most companies do indeed work that way. What I find stunning is
    that they actually think a canidate once hired will never find out what the
    going rates are.

    In other words, when a company pays considerably less then the industry
    standard they can guarantee that person will leave in less then 2 years. If
    that is the kind of business they want to run I sure would be intrested in
    knowing their business model.
    Most people in HR never look that deep into their hiring standards.

    "Jim Berg" wrote:

    > No one is ever paid what they're worth. But that's another topic. ;-)
    >
    > As for what to ask for, the answer is to not ask for anything. Let them
    > make the first offer. If you tell them something that is low, you may just
    > get it. If you tell them something too high, they'll laugh and hire the next
    > guy. If they press you for a price, then they're trying to get a bargain and
    > probably aren't worth working for anyway. Didn't they teach you negotiation
    > in college? ;-)
    >
    > I remember the first job I ever got. They offered me twice the amount that
    > I was thinking of asking for. Something like that sticks with you. :)
    >
    >
    > "Lydon Bergin" wrote:
    >
    > > > Well my degree plan (Info Sys) went from bad to worse so its best to not
    > > > count on it like you say. Mine got so bad I couldnt take it anymore and
    > > > drop
    > > > out at senior standing once I got MCAD.

    > > That is probably the route I would take if I didn't have scholarships, etc,
    > > that were actually paying me to go to school. Can't really beat that. I
    > > can definitely understand the feeling of not being able to sit through the
    > > hours and hours of crap that it puts you through though.
    > >
    > > >I get interviews but no job yet,
    > > > without question my MCAD and personal projects are helping me get
    > > > interviews.
    > > > In fact, just today I had a pretty intense technical interview which I
    > > > think
    > > > I did pretty well, at least compared to anyone else they will find at my
    > > > green level.

    > > I think with an MCAD can get your foot in the door somewhere, but there's
    > > nothing like that college degree to an employer. I hate to be a downer, but
    > > without a degree you'll probably never be paid what you're worth (at least
    > > that's what I've been told, others may know better).
    > >
    > > > About CS: Thing is, from what I understand about CS they dont really
    > > > perpare
    > > > those students for application development. They learn theory, how to make
    > > > database engines programing engines etc. but not presentation
    > > > layer/middleware development.

    > > I agree. CS majors probably don't have to take 2
    > > accounting/marketing/management classes either though. I know these will
    > > look good in the event an employer ever actually looks at what I've taken
    > > (not likely), but I want to learn how to Populate a DataGrid or implement
    > > Tracing in an application. I think one thing holding back colleges from
    > > being able to teach this stuff is that they don't have enough professors
    > > that have any idea what they're doing.
    > >
    > > > In short, in my view certification doesnt get the reputation it deserves.

    > > Again, I agree. It seems to me that in the workplace a certification more
    > > of a way for current employees to prove what they know and maybe get a raise
    > > than it is for an aspiring programmer to get a job. I'm not sure why that
    > > is, probably because of all the "paper MCXX's" around, which Microsoft is
    > > actively trying to stop. Maybe with the new generation of certifications
    > > they will do just that and then when we upgrade our skills employers will
    > > really know that we know our stuff.
    > >
    > >
    > > The way I'm looking at my education is this: when I graduate in Spring 2007
    > > I'll have 2 1/2 years of full-time experience in I.T. at a mid-sized
    > > corporation, I'll have a CIS Degree from a pretty good school, and I'll be
    > > at least MCP, MCAD, and MOS. I think my next employer will give me a second
    > > look before they do some guy that graduated right beside me with no
    > > experience and no certs. At least I hope so.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    Sean, Jan 20, 2006
    #9
  10. Lydon Bergin

    Sean Guest

    added to what I just said I took an HR class and they said on average it
    costs two time the annual salary of a given position to find and settle in a
    new canidate. I find that hard to believe but I am sure its costly either
    way.

    As a result, for HR managers to think short term unless its for a specific
    contract seems short sighted.


    "Sean" wrote:

    > Many if not most companies do indeed work that way. What I find stunning is
    > that they actually think a canidate once hired will never find out what the
    > going rates are.
    >
    > In other words, when a company pays considerably less then the industry
    > standard they can guarantee that person will leave in less then 2 years. If
    > that is the kind of business they want to run I sure would be intrested in
    > knowing their business model.
    > Most people in HR never look that deep into their hiring standards.
    >
    > "Jim Berg" wrote:
    >
    > > No one is ever paid what they're worth. But that's another topic. ;-)
    > >
    > > As for what to ask for, the answer is to not ask for anything. Let them
    > > make the first offer. If you tell them something that is low, you may just
    > > get it. If you tell them something too high, they'll laugh and hire the next
    > > guy. If they press you for a price, then they're trying to get a bargain and
    > > probably aren't worth working for anyway. Didn't they teach you negotiation
    > > in college? ;-)
    > >
    > > I remember the first job I ever got. They offered me twice the amount that
    > > I was thinking of asking for. Something like that sticks with you. :)
    > >
    > >
    > > "Lydon Bergin" wrote:
    > >
    > > > > Well my degree plan (Info Sys) went from bad to worse so its best to not
    > > > > count on it like you say. Mine got so bad I couldnt take it anymore and
    > > > > drop
    > > > > out at senior standing once I got MCAD.
    > > > That is probably the route I would take if I didn't have scholarships, etc,
    > > > that were actually paying me to go to school. Can't really beat that. I
    > > > can definitely understand the feeling of not being able to sit through the
    > > > hours and hours of crap that it puts you through though.
    > > >
    > > > >I get interviews but no job yet,
    > > > > without question my MCAD and personal projects are helping me get
    > > > > interviews.
    > > > > In fact, just today I had a pretty intense technical interview which I
    > > > > think
    > > > > I did pretty well, at least compared to anyone else they will find at my
    > > > > green level.
    > > > I think with an MCAD can get your foot in the door somewhere, but there's
    > > > nothing like that college degree to an employer. I hate to be a downer, but
    > > > without a degree you'll probably never be paid what you're worth (at least
    > > > that's what I've been told, others may know better).
    > > >
    > > > > About CS: Thing is, from what I understand about CS they dont really
    > > > > perpare
    > > > > those students for application development. They learn theory, how to make
    > > > > database engines programing engines etc. but not presentation
    > > > > layer/middleware development.
    > > > I agree. CS majors probably don't have to take 2
    > > > accounting/marketing/management classes either though. I know these will
    > > > look good in the event an employer ever actually looks at what I've taken
    > > > (not likely), but I want to learn how to Populate a DataGrid or implement
    > > > Tracing in an application. I think one thing holding back colleges from
    > > > being able to teach this stuff is that they don't have enough professors
    > > > that have any idea what they're doing.
    > > >
    > > > > In short, in my view certification doesnt get the reputation it deserves.
    > > > Again, I agree. It seems to me that in the workplace a certification more
    > > > of a way for current employees to prove what they know and maybe get a raise
    > > > than it is for an aspiring programmer to get a job. I'm not sure why that
    > > > is, probably because of all the "paper MCXX's" around, which Microsoft is
    > > > actively trying to stop. Maybe with the new generation of certifications
    > > > they will do just that and then when we upgrade our skills employers will
    > > > really know that we know our stuff.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > The way I'm looking at my education is this: when I graduate in Spring 2007
    > > > I'll have 2 1/2 years of full-time experience in I.T. at a mid-sized
    > > > corporation, I'll have a CIS Degree from a pretty good school, and I'll be
    > > > at least MCP, MCAD, and MOS. I think my next employer will give me a second
    > > > look before they do some guy that graduated right beside me with no
    > > > experience and no certs. At least I hope so.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    Sean, Jan 21, 2006
    #10
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