color wheel

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Dale, Dec 12, 2012.

  1. Dale

    Dale Guest

    My Uncle is an artist

    I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer

    I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    opposites of RGB

    he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    complements or opposites to RGB

    does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    someone wrong?


    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 12, 2012
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Dale

    Tim Conway Guest

    "Dale" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > My Uncle is an artist
    >
    > I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >
    > I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    > opposites of RGB
    >
    > he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    > complements or opposites to RGB
    >
    > does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is someone
    > wrong?
    >
    >

    There are others here that can answer you better. As far as I know it is
    "two rights". RGB is generally in tv, video, photography etc. CMY(K) is
    usually used in the printing industry. An example is the computer/monitor
    is RGB, whereas your printer goes by CMYK. Both arrive at the same image
    though or try to.
    Tim
     
    Tim Conway, Dec 12, 2012
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Dale

    Me Guest

    On 12/12/2012 10:31 p.m., Tim Conway wrote:
    > "Dale" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    >> opposites of RGB
    >>
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB
    >>
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is someone
    >> wrong?
    >>
    >>

    > There are others here that can answer you better. As far as I know it is
    > "two rights". RGB is generally in tv, video, photography etc. CMY(K) is
    > usually used in the printing industry. An example is the computer/monitor
    > is RGB, whereas your printer goes by CMYK. Both arrive at the same image
    > though or try to.
    > Tim
    >
    >

    Google "additive and subtractive colour".
    Easy to visualise if you understand that 50:50 red and green pixels on a
    monitor give you bright yellow, red and green paint (or ink) mixed 50:50
    give you a dirty brown, even if dirty brown is just "dark yellow".
     
    Me, Dec 12, 2012
    #3
  4. Dale

    ray Guest

    On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 03:15:14 -0500, Dale wrote:

    > My Uncle is an artist
    >
    > I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >
    > I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    > opposites of RGB
    >
    > he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    > complements or opposites to RGB
    >
    > does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    > someone wrong?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementary_colors

    indicates that it depends on what your primary colors are - the
    complement of a color is obtained by mixing equal portions of the other
    two primaries.
     
    ray, Dec 12, 2012
    #4
  5. On 12.12.2012 09:15, Dale wrote:
    > My Uncle is an artist
    >
    > I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >
    > I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    > opposites of RGB
    >
    > he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    > complements or opposites to RGB
    >
    > does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    > someone wrong?


    All wrong. First of all, RGB is not a color system. There isn't "one
    RGB", there is at best a color gamut, and RGB are three primaries picked
    arbitrary within the gamut. However, that's a subset of all available
    colors, namely everything within the RGB triangle. A popular choice for
    primaries are of course red, green and blue, but do not need to be. Any
    three linearly independent colors do.

    Thus, *a* RGB color space (not *the*...) is the triangle in the XYZ
    color gamut spawned by three primaries. These may or may not be red,
    green and blue.

    Second, CMY (or CMYK) is often referred to as "subtractive" color
    format, though this is highly misleading. I would rather call this a
    multiplicative color space. In RGB, the output color is generated by
    additive mixture (overlay) of colors. In CMY, a white color input
    undergoes filtering by three spectral filters. Thus, a C (cyan) filter
    would remove red. This is multiplicative because the filter
    characteristic of applying two filters (such as C and M) is a filter
    whose spectral sensitivity is the pointwise product of the C and M filter.

    As for RGB, which primaries you pick is entirely up to you. There is no
    need for them to be C, M and Y, though this a popular choice. CMY models
    the color reproduction in print - color pigments act as filters, RGB the
    color reproduction of displays, where light mixes.
     
    Thomas Richter, Dec 12, 2012
    #5
  6. Dale

    Martin Leese Guest

    Dale wrote:
    > My Uncle is an artist
    >
    > I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >
    > I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    > opposites of RGB
    >
    > he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    > complements or opposites to RGB


    What are these "other complements or
    opposites to RGB"? I have a friend who is a
    photographer. He was taught, and always
    refers to, Blue, Red, Yellow filters on his
    colour enlarger but, when I looked, these
    were simply unusual names for Cyan, Magenta,
    Yellow.

    > does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    > someone wrong?


    What you describe is really two *wrongs*, as
    human perception uses something close to Lab.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Leese
    E-mail: -mail.INVALID
    Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
     
    Martin Leese, Dec 12, 2012
    #6
  7. Dale

    Paul Ciszek Guest

    In article <>,
    Dale <> wrote:
    >My Uncle is an artist
    >
    >I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >
    >I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    >opposites of RGB


    In printing, that is definately true--cyan is the absence of red, magenta
    is the absence of green, and yellow is the absence of blue.

    >he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >complements or opposites to RGB


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RYB_color_model

    Artists tend to think of red, yellow and blue as the primary colors.
    And, for some reason, this system works when you are mixing paints.
    Red and yellow give you orange, yellow and blue give you green, and
    red and blue give you purple. Three primaries + three secondaries
    give you six basic colors, seen on the pride flag, most non-technical
    color wheels, and cartoon depictions of rainbows. Personally, I find
    the artist's color wheel with red, yellow and blue equally spaced more
    aesthetically pleasing than the RGB color wheel. Anyway, on the artist's
    color wheel, the complimentary pairs are red-green, yellow-purple, and
    blue-orange.

    >does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >someone wrong?


    Artists came up with this color system long before the physics of color
    vision were understood, so it is not surprising that they identified
    a different set of primaries. I wouldn't call it "wrong", either. To
    me, green "looks like" a mixture of blue and yellow, while yellow does
    *not* "look like" a mixture of red and green. Of course, this could be
    a cultural bias implanted back in pre-school, I don't know.

    --
    "Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS
    crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in
    TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in
    bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither."
     
    Paul Ciszek, Dec 12, 2012
    #7
  8. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 12:47 PM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > On 12.12.2012 09:15, Dale wrote:
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    >> opposites of RGB
    >>
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB
    >>
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >> someone wrong?

    >
    > All wrong. First of all, RGB is not a color system. There isn't "one
    > RGB", there is at best a color gamut, and RGB are three primaries picked
    > arbitrary within the gamut. However, that's a subset of all available
    > colors, namely everything within the RGB triangle. A popular choice for
    > primaries are of course red, green and blue, but do not need to be. Any
    > three linearly independent colors do.
    >
    > Thus, *a* RGB color space (not *the*...) is the triangle in the XYZ
    > color gamut spawned by three primaries. These may or may not be red,
    > green and blue.
    >
    > Second, CMY (or CMYK) is often referred to as "subtractive" color
    > format, though this is highly misleading. I would rather call this a
    > multiplicative color space. In RGB, the output color is generated by
    > additive mixture (overlay) of colors. In CMY, a white color input
    > undergoes filtering by three spectral filters. Thus, a C (cyan) filter
    > would remove red. This is multiplicative because the filter
    > characteristic of applying two filters (such as C and M) is a filter
    > whose spectral sensitivity is the pointwise product of the C and M filter.
    >
    > As for RGB, which primaries you pick is entirely up to you. There is no
    > need for them to be C, M and Y, though this a popular choice. CMY models
    > the color reproduction in print - color pigments act as filters, RGB the
    > color reproduction of displays, where light mixes.
    >


    yeah I forget, there is no one RGB or CMY

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #8
  9. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 06:45 PM, Paul Ciszek wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Dale <> wrote:
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    >> opposites of RGB

    >
    > In printing, that is definately true--cyan is the absence of red, magenta
    > is the absence of green, and yellow is the absence of blue.
    >
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB

    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RYB_color_model
    >
    > Artists tend to think of red, yellow and blue as the primary colors.
    > And, for some reason, this system works when you are mixing paints.
    > Red and yellow give you orange, yellow and blue give you green, and
    > red and blue give you purple. Three primaries + three secondaries
    > give you six basic colors, seen on the pride flag, most non-technical
    > color wheels, and cartoon depictions of rainbows. Personally, I find
    > the artist's color wheel with red, yellow and blue equally spaced more
    > aesthetically pleasing than the RGB color wheel. Anyway, on the artist's
    > color wheel, the complimentary pairs are red-green, yellow-purple, and
    > blue-orange.
    >
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >> someone wrong?

    >
    > Artists came up with this color system long before the physics of color
    > vision were understood, so it is not surprising that they identified
    > a different set of primaries. I wouldn't call it "wrong", either. To
    > me, green "looks like" a mixture of blue and yellow, while yellow does
    > *not* "look like" a mixture of red and green. Of course, this could be
    > a cultural bias implanted back in pre-school, I don't know.
    >


    thanks

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #9
  10. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 01:21 PM, Martin Leese wrote:
    > Dale wrote:
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements
    >> or opposites of RGB
    >>
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB

    >
    > What are these "other complements or
    > opposites to RGB"? I have a friend who is a
    > photographer. He was taught, and always
    > refers to, Blue, Red, Yellow filters on his
    > colour enlarger but, when I looked, these
    > were simply unusual names for Cyan, Magenta,
    > Yellow.


    he uses a standard artist's color wheel, yu can find on the net

    >
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >> someone wrong?

    >
    > What you describe is really two *wrongs*, as
    > human perception uses something close to Lab.
    >


    yeah, I know Lab or Luv is more definitive

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #10
  11. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 06:34 AM, bugbear wrote:
    > Dale wrote:
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements
    >> or opposites of RGB
    >>
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB
    >>
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >> someone wrong?

    >
    > An an imaging system engineer, you'll already be aware of the differences
    > between additive and subtractive colours, so that can't be the
    > difference you're looking for.
    >
    > What colour wheel is your uncle using? Does it have a name?


    it is a standard artist's color wheel, can be found many places on the net


    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #11
  12. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 04:31 AM, Tim Conway wrote:
    > "Dale" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    >> opposites of RGB
    >>
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB
    >>
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is someone
    >> wrong?
    >>
    >>

    > There are others here that can answer you better. As far as I know it is
    > "two rights". RGB is generally in tv, video, photography etc. CMY(K) is
    > usually used in the printing industry. An example is the computer/monitor
    > is RGB, whereas your printer goes by CMYK. Both arrive at the same image
    > though or try to.
    > Tim
    >
    >


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #12
  13. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 06:34 AM, bugbear wrote:
    > Dale wrote:
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements
    >> or opposites of RGB
    >>
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB
    >>
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >> someone wrong?

    >
    > An an imaging system engineer, you'll already be aware of the differences
    > between additive and subtractive colours, so that can't be the
    > difference you're looking for.
    >
    > What colour wheel is your uncle using? Does it have a name?
    >
    > BugBear
    >


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #13
  14. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 11:40 AM, ray wrote:
    > On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 03:15:14 -0500, Dale wrote:
    >
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    >> opposites of RGB
    >>
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB
    >>
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >> someone wrong?

    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementary_colors
    >
    > indicates that it depends on what your primary colors are - the
    > complement of a color is obtained by mixing equal portions of the other
    > two primaries.
    >


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #14
  15. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 12:47 PM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > On 12.12.2012 09:15, Dale wrote:
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    >> opposites of RGB
    >>
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB
    >>
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >> someone wrong?

    >
    > All wrong. First of all, RGB is not a color system. There isn't "one
    > RGB", there is at best a color gamut, and RGB are three primaries picked
    > arbitrary within the gamut. However, that's a subset of all available
    > colors, namely everything within the RGB triangle. A popular choice for
    > primaries are of course red, green and blue, but do not need to be. Any
    > three linearly independent colors do.
    >
    > Thus, *a* RGB color space (not *the*...) is the triangle in the XYZ
    > color gamut spawned by three primaries. These may or may not be red,
    > green and blue.
    >
    > Second, CMY (or CMYK) is often referred to as "subtractive" color
    > format, though this is highly misleading. I would rather call this a
    > multiplicative color space. In RGB, the output color is generated by
    > additive mixture (overlay) of colors. In CMY, a white color input
    > undergoes filtering by three spectral filters. Thus, a C (cyan) filter
    > would remove red. This is multiplicative because the filter
    > characteristic of applying two filters (such as C and M) is a filter
    > whose spectral sensitivity is the pointwise product of the C and M filter.
    >
    > As for RGB, which primaries you pick is entirely up to you. There is no
    > need for them to be C, M and Y, though this a popular choice. CMY models
    > the color reproduction in print - color pigments act as filters, RGB the
    > color reproduction of displays, where light mixes.
    >


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #15
  16. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 01:21 PM, Martin Leese wrote:
    > Dale wrote:
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements
    >> or opposites of RGB
    >>
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB

    >
    > What are these "other complements or
    > opposites to RGB"? I have a friend who is a
    > photographer. He was taught, and always
    > refers to, Blue, Red, Yellow filters on his
    > colour enlarger but, when I looked, these
    > were simply unusual names for Cyan, Magenta,
    > Yellow.
    >
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >> someone wrong?

    >
    > What you describe is really two *wrongs*, as
    > human perception uses something close to Lab.
    >


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #16
  17. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/12/2012 06:45 PM, Paul Ciszek wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Dale <> wrote:
    >> My Uncle is an artist
    >>
    >> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>
    >> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements or
    >> opposites of RGB

    >
    > In printing, that is definately true--cyan is the absence of red, magenta
    > is the absence of green, and yellow is the absence of blue.
    >
    >> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >> complements or opposites to RGB

    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RYB_color_model
    >
    > Artists tend to think of red, yellow and blue as the primary colors.
    > And, for some reason, this system works when you are mixing paints.
    > Red and yellow give you orange, yellow and blue give you green, and
    > red and blue give you purple. Three primaries + three secondaries
    > give you six basic colors, seen on the pride flag, most non-technical
    > color wheels, and cartoon depictions of rainbows. Personally, I find
    > the artist's color wheel with red, yellow and blue equally spaced more
    > aesthetically pleasing than the RGB color wheel. Anyway, on the artist's
    > color wheel, the complimentary pairs are red-green, yellow-purple, and
    > blue-orange.
    >
    >> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >> someone wrong?

    >
    > Artists came up with this color system long before the physics of color
    > vision were understood, so it is not surprising that they identified
    > a different set of primaries. I wouldn't call it "wrong", either. To
    > me, green "looks like" a mixture of blue and yellow, while yellow does
    > *not* "look like" a mixture of red and green. Of course, this could be
    > a cultural bias implanted back in pre-school, I don't know.
    >


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 13, 2012
    #17
  18. Dale

    Martin Leese Guest

    Dale wrote:

    > On 12/12/2012 01:21 PM, Martin Leese wrote:

    ....
    >> I have a friend who is a
    >> photographer. He was taught, and always
    >> refers to, Blue, Red, Yellow filters on his
    >> colour enlarger but, when I looked, these
    >> were simply unusual names for Cyan, Magenta,
    >> Yellow.

    >
    > he uses a standard artist's color wheel, yu can find on the net


    No he doesn't. As I stated, he uses a
    standard CMY colour head on his enlarger,
    but applies non-standard labels to the
    colours.

    Stop trolling.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Leese
    E-mail: -mail.INVALID
    Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
     
    Martin Leese, Dec 13, 2012
    #18
  19. Dale

    Martin Leese Guest

    Dale wrote:
    > On 12/12/2012 01:21 PM, Martin Leese wrote:
    >> Dale wrote:
    >>> My Uncle is an artist
    >>>
    >>> I have ten years work experience as an imaging system engineer
    >>>
    >>> I was always under the impression that CMY were the color complements
    >>> or opposites of RGB
    >>>
    >>> he and apparently many others use a color wheel where the are other
    >>> complements or opposites to RGB

    >>
    >> What are these "other complements or
    >> opposites to RGB"? I have a friend who is a
    >> photographer. He was taught, and always
    >> refers to, Blue, Red, Yellow filters on his
    >> colour enlarger but, when I looked, these
    >> were simply unusual names for Cyan, Magenta,
    >> Yellow.
    >>
    >>> does anyone know why this situation is? are there two rights or is
    >>> someone wrong?

    >>
    >> What you describe is really two *wrongs*, as
    >> human perception uses something close to Lab.

    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel


    What this Wikipedia article shows is a
    number of different colour wheels. These
    are mostly close to Lab (human perception)
    where colour opposites are Green/Red and
    Blue/Yellow.

    Stop trolling.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Leese
    E-mail: -mail.INVALID
    Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
     
    Martin Leese, Dec 13, 2012
    #19
  20. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 12/13/2012 12:06 PM, Martin Leese wrote:
    > Dale wrote:
    >
    >> On 12/12/2012 01:21 PM, Martin Leese wrote:

    > ...
    >>> I have a friend who is a
    >>> photographer. He was taught, and always
    >>> refers to, Blue, Red, Yellow filters on his
    >>> colour enlarger but, when I looked, these
    >>> were simply unusual names for Cyan, Magenta,
    >>> Yellow.

    >>
    >> he uses a standard artist's color wheel, yu can find on the net

    >
    > No he doesn't. As I stated, he uses a
    > standard CMY colour head on his enlarger,
    > but applies non-standard labels to the
    > colours.
    >
    > Stop trolling.
    >


    are you threatening me? I am Cornholio, I need TP for my bunghole

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornholio#Cornholio

    --
    Dale
     
    Dale, Dec 14, 2012
    #20
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