College vs Cert

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jul 8, 2005.

  1. Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question is
    a bit different.

    I am an IST major and people at my college don’t seem to take certifications
    very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
    councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door
    then a degree.
    Our program manager said “a certification cant replace an ‘entire’ courseâ€.
    I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306 would
    be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
     
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jul 8, 2005
    #1
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  2. =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

    EggHead Guest

    I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
    However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
    degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree from
    university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
    field" not the M$ Cert.
    Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is only
    a piece of paper and almost unless.
    Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip from
    college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert from
    the street in North America now.

    Egghead

    "Sean" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question
    > is
    > a bit different.
    >
    > I am an IST major and people at my college don¡¦t seem to take
    > certifications
    > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
    > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
    > door
    > then a degree.
    > Our program manager said ¡§a certification cant replace an ¡¥entire¡¦
    > course¡¨.
    > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
    > would
    > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
    >
     
    EggHead, Jul 8, 2005
    #2
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  3. My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to be
    teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but they
    are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the course
    work.

    Now on the topic of “experience†need I remind you that people who are
    talking to college councilors about “the best way to get my foot in the doorâ€
    don’t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
    councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
    experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
    following
    1.get certified
    2.get a degree
    3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
    stuff at work.

    “experience†is not an option for “getting experienceâ€. I hope before I die
    people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic “I need
    experience to get my foot in the door†which if it is not illogical, it is at
    best simply asking for a hand out.



    "EggHead" wrote:

    > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
    > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
    > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree from
    > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
    > field" not the M$ Cert.
    > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is only
    > a piece of paper and almost unless.
    > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip from
    > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert from
    > the street in North America now.
    >
    > Egghead
    >
    > "Sean" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question
    > > is
    > > a bit different.
    > >
    > > I am an IST major and people at my college don¡¦t seem to take
    > > certifications
    > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
    > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
    > > door
    > > then a degree.
    > > Our program manager said ¡§a certification cant replace an ¡¥entire¡¦
    > > course¡¨.
    > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
    > > would
    > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
    > >

    >
    >
    >
     
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jul 9, 2005
    #3
  4. I want to add to what I am replying by making it clear that I personally am
    doing both degree and certification for a very specific reason. The reason is
    because my college is not teaching me the material I need to know to survive
    one day in this industry despite the fact the degree plan is directly
    related! Granted this may be my college in particular but I assure you I
    would hire a MS certified person with no experience before I ever considered
    a person with no experience who has graduated from my college/degree plan
    despite the fact the degree plan purports to be teaching these specific
    technologies.

    I guess my question is this, is my college the exception or the rule?
    Because my college is a academic disaster zone when it comes to the IST
    degree plan.


    "Sean" wrote:

    > My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to be
    > teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but they
    > are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the course
    > work.
    >
    > Now on the topic of “experience†need I remind you that people who are
    > talking to college councilors about “the best way to get my foot in the doorâ€
    > don’t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
    > councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
    > experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
    > following
    > 1.get certified
    > 2.get a degree
    > 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
    > stuff at work.
    >
    > “experience†is not an option for “getting experienceâ€. I hope before I die
    > people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic “I need
    > experience to get my foot in the door†which if it is not illogical, it is at
    > best simply asking for a hand out.
    >
    >
    >
    > "EggHead" wrote:
    >
    > > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
    > > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
    > > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree from
    > > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
    > > field" not the M$ Cert.
    > > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is only
    > > a piece of paper and almost unless.
    > > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip from
    > > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert from
    > > the street in North America now.
    > >
    > > Egghead
    > >
    > > "Sean" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question
    > > > is
    > > > a bit different.
    > > >
    > > > I am an IST major and people at my college don¡¦t seem to take
    > > > certifications
    > > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
    > > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
    > > > door
    > > > then a degree.
    > > > Our program manager said ¡§a certification cant replace an ¡¥entire¡¦
    > > > course¡¨.
    > > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
    > > > would
    > > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
    > > >

    > >
    > >
    > >
     
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jul 9, 2005
    #4
  5. =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

    Egghead Guest

    Sean, something wrong here,
    Do u mean MCSE? I think IST is for MCSE stuffs, not MCSD stuffs.
    May be you are in the wrong Major after all.
    You are the first one to tell me that cert materials are more challenging
    than a degree courses works, do you complete your last yr courses yet?
    Anyway, I also have a degree in CS and few certs as well. However, I find
    out that a degree is still the best way to get the foot in the door without
    any exp (Of course, it is given that it is not an university of Pancakes
    degree). It is bcos it looks good on your resume, and you must do some
    computer related course works in that 4yrs.
    "Exp in the field" does not mean that you are working as a PAID developer or
    a PAID sys admin. There are a lot of ways to get exp in the field. In our
    CS, we need to involve in 3 CS related projects with some companies before
    we can go to our final yr, and we must spend at least 150 hrs in each
    project. Also, before we can let go, we need to involve in a CS related
    project that we spend at least 450hrs in it. Therefore, we can build up some
    exp and have a nice CVS. A lot of my classmates have job offer from those
    companies or other companies that have similar project. If your college does
    not offer that, I believe your can do some volunteer work for your local
    church as well.
    I understand that it feels angry when looking for work, especially after 4
    yrs of hard work in college. On the other hand, you must understand without
    exp. It is a really hard sell to any employer. How can they know you can do
    the work?
    OK, I run into some jobs that degree and exp are not really a req. However,
    you need to write their in-house exam. The exam is not all in MC format, and
    at least half of the exam is hand-on programming.
    Now, I really want to know which college you are in?
    I mean there is no way an accredited college in North America can be that
    bad.
    Egghead

    "Sean" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to

    be
    > teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but

    they
    > are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the

    course
    > work.
    >
    > Now on the topic of ¡§experience¡¨ need I remind you that people who are
    > talking to college councilors about ¡§the best way to get my foot in the

    door¡¨
    > don¡¦t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
    > councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
    > experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
    > following
    > 1.get certified
    > 2.get a degree
    > 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
    > stuff at work.
    >
    > ¡§experience¡¨ is not an option for ¡§getting experience¡¨. I hope before

    I die
    > people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic ¡§I need
    > experience to get my foot in the door¡¨ which if it is not illogical, it

    is at
    > best simply asking for a hand out.
    >
    >
    >
    > "EggHead" wrote:
    >
    > > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
    > > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
    > > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree

    from
    > > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
    > > field" not the M$ Cert.
    > > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is

    only
    > > a piece of paper and almost unless.
    > > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip

    from
    > > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert

    from
    > > the street in North America now.
    > >
    > > Egghead
    > >
    > > "Sean" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my

    question
    > > > is
    > > > a bit different.
    > > >
    > > > I am an IST major and people at my college don!|t seem to take
    > > > certifications
    > > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
    > > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
    > > > door
    > > > then a degree.
    > > > Our program manager said !¡±a certification cant replace an !¢D

    entire!|
    > > > course!¡L.
    > > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
    > > > would
    > > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
    > > >

    > >
    > >
    > >
     
    Egghead, Jul 9, 2005
    #5
  6. =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

    Egghead Guest

    What do they teach you in IST now?
    Do they teach you how to defend a network when it is under attack? Or, how
    to write a virus or trojan horse? Or the methodology in designing an IS?
    That is new to me, I never know a degree plan can be a vendor-specific. In
    our school, we learn not only M$ tech, but also other tech as well. It is
    like telling me that a BBA only learn one depreciation method.
    Egghead
    "Sean" <> wrote in message
    news:D...
    > I want to add to what I am replying by making it clear that I personally

    am
    > doing both degree and certification for a very specific reason. The reason

    is
    > because my college is not teaching me the material I need to know to

    survive
    > one day in this industry despite the fact the degree plan is directly
    > related! Granted this may be my college in particular but I assure you I
    > would hire a MS certified person with no experience before I ever

    considered
    > a person with no experience who has graduated from my college/degree plan
    > despite the fact the degree plan purports to be teaching these specific
    > technologies.
    >
    > I guess my question is this, is my college the exception or the rule?
    > Because my college is a academic disaster zone when it comes to the IST
    > degree plan.
    >
    >
    > "Sean" wrote:
    >
    > > My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed

    to be
    > > teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but

    they
    > > are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the

    course
    > > work.
    > >
    > > Now on the topic of ¡§experience¡¨ need I remind you that people who are
    > > talking to college councilors about ¡§the best way to get my foot in the

    door¡¨
    > > don¡¦t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
    > > councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
    > > experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of

    the
    > > following
    > > 1.get certified
    > > 2.get a degree
    > > 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
    > > stuff at work.
    > >
    > > ¡§experience¡¨ is not an option for ¡§getting experience¡¨. I hope

    before I die
    > > people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic ¡§I

    need
    > > experience to get my foot in the door¡¨ which if it is not illogical, it

    is at
    > > best simply asking for a hand out.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "EggHead" wrote:
    > >
    > > > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
    > > > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then

    a
    > > > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree

    from
    > > > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in

    the
    > > > field" not the M$ Cert.
    > > > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is

    only
    > > > a piece of paper and almost unless.
    > > > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip

    from
    > > > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert

    from
    > > > the street in North America now.
    > > >
    > > > Egghead
    > > >
    > > > "Sean" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:...
    > > > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my

    question
    > > > > is
    > > > > a bit different.
    > > > >
    > > > > I am an IST major and people at my college don!|t seem to take
    > > > > certifications
    > > > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my

    college
    > > > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in

    the
    > > > > door
    > > > > then a degree.
    > > > > Our program manager said !¡±a certification cant replace an !¢D

    entire!|
    > > > > course!¡L.
    > > > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as

    70-306
    > > > > would
    > > > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
     
    Egghead, Jul 9, 2005
    #6
  7. =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

    Mark Guest

    Sean,

    Your best bet as a college student is to get an internship. Plenty if IT
    companies hire interns for summer work. They know you will not be fully
    up-to-speed, and may only contribute minimally. However, you get paid a
    little / get some experience, and they get to market their company to you as
    a possibility for when you graduated. I had internships from my Sophomore
    year on while I was in school. One with a major insurance company (that was
    the one that seemed to be more of a marketing deal for the company), the
    other with a local engineering firm. The engineering firm was the one that I
    learned the most from. Small IT department, plenty to do and learn.

    I concur with Sir Egghead though, certifications are for experienced
    professionals. Once you've gotten in the door and have some experience, then
    consider what certifications will do for you. Your college degree is to
    teach you the basic concepts of IT that you will be able to reuse
    (hopefully) for a long time to come, even as new technologies come out.

    What year are you? What college are you at?

    Mark


    "Sean" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to

    be
    > teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but

    they
    > are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the

    course
    > work.
    >
    > Now on the topic of "experience" need I remind you that people who are
    > talking to college councilors about "the best way to get my foot in the

    door"
    > don't have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
    > councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
    > experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
    > following
    > 1.get certified
    > 2.get a degree
    > 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
    > stuff at work.
    >
    > "experience" is not an option for "getting experience". I hope before I

    die
    > people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic "I need
    > experience to get my foot in the door" which if it is not illogical, it is

    at
    > best simply asking for a hand out.
    >
    >
    >
    > "EggHead" wrote:
    >
    > > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
    > > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
    > > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree

    from
    > > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
    > > field" not the M$ Cert.
    > > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is

    only
    > > a piece of paper and almost unless.
    > > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip

    from
    > > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert

    from
    > > the street in North America now.
    > >
    > > Egghead
    > >
    > > "Sean" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my

    question
    > > > is
    > > > a bit different.
    > > >
    > > > I am an IST major and people at my college don¡¦t seem to take
    > > > certifications
    > > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
    > > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
    > > > door
    > > > then a degree.
    > > > Our program manager said ¡§a certification cant replace an ¡¥entire¡¦
    > > > course¡¨.
    > > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
    > > > would
    > > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
    > > >

    > >
    > >
    > >
     
    Mark, Jul 11, 2005
    #7
  8. Well this continues to divert from what I was asking and I thought I made it
    clear I was not asking which one a person should get. I was strictly asking
    about the volume of material itself and the difficultly of it. But since we
    are going down that road let me try to make it as clear and simple as I can.

    Students in my IT degree plan will be lucky to even know what ADO is before
    they graduate, let alone what it does. We will not cover web services, .net
    remoting, or serviced components (and I am 1000% positive on remoting and
    serviced components, those words will not even be mentioned in 4 years)

    I don’t know about other degree plans but at least for mine the concept that
    my IT degree plan prepares you for anything other then how to write words on
    paper is hysterical to me.

    I already have one degree and worked in a similar industry for 13 years of
    which was close to developers who I interacted from time to time and I can
    assure you that at least my IT degree plan doesn’t even come into the same
    general ballpark as MCAD or MCSD.

    I am not askin how to get into the business. I think my 3.95 GPA and MCAD
    soon to be MCSD certification will be fine.
     
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jul 11, 2005
    #8
  9. My degree plan teaches even LESS on MCSE type material then it does MCAD
    material.
    Again I stress, this could simply be my college this degree plan suggests
    network Admin but only has two classes regarding networking. There is another
    degree plan called computer engineering which is 100% hardware and only has
    one programing class but my college says its for "software engineering".

    My college basically doesnt have a clue what its doing and is not teaching
    students anything. If I was an employer I would hire a certified person with
    no experience before I hired a graduate from my college/degree plan with no
    experience, without question. I am willing to bet a vast majority of my
    co-students would agree with me in fact, we talk about it all the time.

    "Egghead" wrote:

    > Sean, something wrong here,
    > Do u mean MCSE? I think IST is for MCSE stuffs, not MCSD stuffs.
    > May be you are in the wrong Major after all.
    > You are the first one to tell me that cert materials are more challenging
    > than a degree courses works, do you complete your last yr courses yet?
    > Anyway, I also have a degree in CS and few certs as well. However, I find
    > out that a degree is still the best way to get the foot in the door without
    > any exp (Of course, it is given that it is not an university of Pancakes
    > degree). It is bcos it looks good on your resume, and you must do some
    > computer related course works in that 4yrs.
    > "Exp in the field" does not mean that you are working as a PAID developer or
    > a PAID sys admin. There are a lot of ways to get exp in the field. In our
    > CS, we need to involve in 3 CS related projects with some companies before
    > we can go to our final yr, and we must spend at least 150 hrs in each
    > project. Also, before we can let go, we need to involve in a CS related
    > project that we spend at least 450hrs in it. Therefore, we can build up some
    > exp and have a nice CVS. A lot of my classmates have job offer from those
    > companies or other companies that have similar project. If your college does
    > not offer that, I believe your can do some volunteer work for your local
    > church as well.
    > I understand that it feels angry when looking for work, especially after 4
    > yrs of hard work in college. On the other hand, you must understand without
    > exp. It is a really hard sell to any employer. How can they know you can do
    > the work?
    > OK, I run into some jobs that degree and exp are not really a req. However,
    > you need to write their in-house exam. The exam is not all in MC format, and
    > at least half of the exam is hand-on programming.
    > Now, I really want to know which college you are in?
    > I mean there is no way an accredited college in North America can be that
    > bad.
    > Egghead
    >
    > "Sean" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to

    > be
    > > teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but

    > they
    > > are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the

    > course
    > > work.
    > >
    > > Now on the topic of ¡§experience¡¨ need I remind you that people who are
    > > talking to college councilors about ¡§the best way to get my foot in the

    > door¡¨
    > > don¡¦t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
    > > councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
    > > experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
    > > following
    > > 1.get certified
    > > 2.get a degree
    > > 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
    > > stuff at work.
    > >
    > > ¡§experience¡¨ is not an option for ¡§getting experience¡¨. I hope before

    > I die
    > > people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic ¡§I need
    > > experience to get my foot in the door¡¨ which if it is not illogical, it

    > is at
    > > best simply asking for a hand out.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "EggHead" wrote:
    > >
    > > > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
    > > > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
    > > > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree

    > from
    > > > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
    > > > field" not the M$ Cert.
    > > > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is

    > only
    > > > a piece of paper and almost unless.
    > > > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip

    > from
    > > > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert

    > from
    > > > the street in North America now.
    > > >
    > > > Egghead
    > > >
    > > > "Sean" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:...
    > > > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my

    > question
    > > > > is
    > > > > a bit different.
    > > > >
    > > > > I am an IST major and people at my college don!|t seem to take
    > > > > certifications
    > > > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
    > > > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
    > > > > door
    > > > > then a degree.
    > > > > Our program manager said !¡±a certification cant replace an !¢D

    > entire!|
    > > > > course!¡L.
    > > > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
    > > > > would
    > > > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    >
    >
    >
     
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jul 11, 2005
    #9
  10. Position = debugger for .Net

    Candidate A
    1.no experience
    2.college degree
    3.no clue what tracing, logs or anything else regarding debug for that matter

    Canidate B
    1.no experience
    2.college degree
    3.MCAD

    Which one do you pick at the same rate. It boils down to the basics here,
    the first day at work you have to choice of teaching someone the basics of
    debugging before explaining your companies standards and tools or you can
    just jump to your companies standards and tools and skip all the debugging
    basics.

    The answer to this question could be any easier in my mind.
     
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jul 11, 2005
    #10
  11. =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

    EggHead Guest

    haha, if all you want is those M$ stuff, you should enroll .net programmer
    or OOP programmer cert/diploma at your college rather than go to take any
    degree program from your
    college. I think not that many school will put those stuff in their degree
    courses' outline.

    Are those stuff in your courses' outline?

    The truth is that none of my courses' outline has web services, ADO.net, or
    even RPC. However, I learn those when I was doing my courses' homework or my
    working project.
    A degree plan should teaches you how to do a basic research, like how to
    find out how to do a Link-List search in C# base on what you already know
    and what you will find. If a degree plan only spoon feed you how to do those
    M$ stuff, then what is the different between a degree and a programmer
    cert/diploma?

    BTW, 3.95 GPA means nothing if your college is Batman College, unless IT
    unemployment rate is less than 3% at your area.

    In my CS program, there is a option for a student to take MCSD or SCJD.
    However, it is only equal to 3 course cerdits (around part-time for one
    semester). As you can see, no one will compare a dregree to a MCSD.

    Egghead

    "Sean" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Well this continues to divert from what I was asking and I thought I made
    > it
    > clear I was not asking which one a person should get. I was strictly
    > asking
    > about the volume of material itself and the difficultly of it. But since
    > we
    > are going down that road let me try to make it as clear and simple as I
    > can.
    >
    > Students in my IT degree plan will be lucky to even know what ADO is
    > before
    > they graduate, let alone what it does. We will not cover web services,
    > .net
    > remoting, or serviced components (and I am 1000% positive on remoting and
    > serviced components, those words will not even be mentioned in 4 years)
    >
    > I don¡¦t know about other degree plans but at least for mine the concept
    > that
    > my IT degree plan prepares you for anything other then how to write words
    > on
    > paper is hysterical to me.
    >
    > I already have one degree and worked in a similar industry for 13 years of
    > which was close to developers who I interacted from time to time and I can
    > assure you that at least my IT degree plan doesn¡¦t even come into the
    > same
    > general ballpark as MCAD or MCSD.
    >
    > I am not askin how to get into the business. I think my 3.95 GPA and MCAD
    > soon to be MCSD certification will be fine.
     
    EggHead, Jul 11, 2005
    #11
  12. =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

    EggHead Guest

    haha,

    Assume this is a jr position.

    OK, none of them have any experience in the field. It means almost clueless.

    Assume they are from the same $_Sucking college with 4.0 GPA

    I will C who has a better people skill and can represent his idea better in
    the interview. This is VERY VERY important when a tester try to explain the
    bug to the developer and not offend the developer.

    The problem for MCAD or MCSD or other few MC format certs is that how can
    an employer know the candidiate has hand-on exp in .net debugging or in
    windows programming or at least put in afford to read the MS press book,
    or he is just memorizing the dump answers.

    Of course, it will be different for SCJD :)

    Regarding the debugging basics, I will train A&B the same way, just give
    them the manual and tell them to read it :), I need to make sure them is in
    the same bar as what we have in our tester team. So, it is not a matter
    after all.

    Sean, the problem is that you need to see from 10 miles up :)

    However, if :

    A:
    1. 4 yrs exp in the similar position
    2. college degree
    3. no cert

    B:
    1. 3 yrs exp in the similar position
    2. $_Sucking college degree
    3. MCAD or MCSD or any other similar cert


    B will be my first choice :)

    If you think my choice is BAIS, go to ask your developer friend.

    Egghead.

    "Sean" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Position = debugger for .Net
    >
    > Candidate A
    > 1.no experience
    > 2.college degree
    > 3.no clue what tracing, logs or anything else regarding debug for that
    > matter
    >
    > Canidate B
    > 1.no experience
    > 2.college degree
    > 3.MCAD
    >
    > Which one do you pick at the same rate. It boils down to the basics here,
    > the first day at work you have to choice of teaching someone the basics of
    > debugging before explaining your companies standards and tools or you can
    > just jump to your companies standards and tools and skip all the debugging
    > basics.
    >
    > The answer to this question could be any easier in my mind.
    >
     
    EggHead, Jul 12, 2005
    #12
  13. My college doesnt have the degree/cert program, wish they did.

    GPA does matter, it has in my past life, it has with my friends as well and
    Honors societies match you up with jobs that are otherwise not listed.

    Granted Loser U (which is what I attend) one must maintain a higher GPA then
    others at better colleges and in fact there is even a rating system that
    takes that into effect from what I understand.

    If GPA was not important we wouldnt have it becuase its a horrific hassle
    when it comes to adminstration, testing and even learning itself.

    If you graduate Summa its a very good thing. Some recuriters will not even
    look at your resume unless you have a 3.0 or better.

    As it turns out, if you have two canidates for a junior position and neither
    one of them have experience, the academics both college and certs will become
    the filtering process for the interview. I personally, also have an
    application I can demo and explain all the details.

    Thing is, until tonight, I had no idea the real questions on the exams were
    floating around which really sucks becuase I got my MCAD 100% from reading
    and building.

    I personally am in very good shape on all fronts including "word of mouth".
    I had two internship offers which I wasnt looking for and turned them down
    becuase I wanted to study cert. additionally the dean said he would write a
    letter of recomendation..:) I should brag so much it could be my achillies.

    Anyway, back to the orginal point of my post I just basically wanted to get
    an idea if people felt these exams were much more intensive then college
    work, they have been for me.

    I clock my actual study time. In college I spend more time going to class
    and sitting in class then I actually studying and I learn much better on my
    own and with an expert handy to ask questions. Some classes in fact I spend
    more time with my writtings then I do actually learning something new. With
    certs its intense 100% learning compared to college work. I have only taken
    one class were I felt each test covered the same level of actual study time
    that an overall certification process takes. That class was a total of 56
    hours of my head deep in a book perparing for the exam. 56 hours for a cert
    exam (for me anyway) is just getting started.
     
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jul 12, 2005
    #13
  14. =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

    EggHead Guest

    Not all degree are created equal.
    Are you telling me you believe that an $TT or D£ávry degree is same as a
    degree from Caltech b'cos of teach the same stuff and have all the similar
    exam Qs?
    Sean, did you born yesterday?
    Anyway, your college is not bad yet. I hear some college hand out exam Qs
    and ans to their student.
    However, having a degree, you can be easier to become a pm :)
    Egghead

    "Sean" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > My college doesnt have the degree/cert program, wish they did.
    >
    > GPA does matter, it has in my past life, it has with my friends as well
    > and
    > Honors societies match you up with jobs that are otherwise not listed.
    >
    > Granted Loser U (which is what I attend) one must maintain a higher GPA
    > then
    > others at better colleges and in fact there is even a rating system that
    > takes that into effect from what I understand.
    >
    > If GPA was not important we wouldnt have it becuase its a horrific hassle
    > when it comes to adminstration, testing and even learning itself.
    >
    > If you graduate Summa its a very good thing. Some recuriters will not even
    > look at your resume unless you have a 3.0 or better.
    >
    > As it turns out, if you have two canidates for a junior position and
    > neither
    > one of them have experience, the academics both college and certs will
    > become
    > the filtering process for the interview. I personally, also have an
    > application I can demo and explain all the details.
    >
    > Thing is, until tonight, I had no idea the real questions on the exams
    > were
    > floating around which really sucks becuase I got my MCAD 100% from reading
    > and building.
    >
    > I personally am in very good shape on all fronts including "word of
    > mouth".
    > I had two internship offers which I wasnt looking for and turned them down
    > becuase I wanted to study cert. additionally the dean said he would write
    > a
    > letter of recomendation..:) I should brag so much it could be my
    > achillies.
    >
    > Anyway, back to the orginal point of my post I just basically wanted to
    > get
    > an idea if people felt these exams were much more intensive then college
    > work, they have been for me.
    >
    > I clock my actual study time. In college I spend more time going to class
    > and sitting in class then I actually studying and I learn much better on
    > my
    > own and with an expert handy to ask questions. Some classes in fact I
    > spend
    > more time with my writtings then I do actually learning something new.
    > With
    > certs its intense 100% learning compared to college work. I have only
    > taken
    > one class were I felt each test covered the same level of actual study
    > time
    > that an overall certification process takes. That class was a total of 56
    > hours of my head deep in a book perparing for the exam. 56 hours for a
    > cert
    > exam (for me anyway) is just getting started.
     
    EggHead, Jul 12, 2005
    #14
  15. =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

    JaR Guest

    In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd, =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?= spewed across
    the ether:

    > My college basically doesnt have a clue what its doing and is not
    > teaching students anything. If I was an employer I would hire a
    > certified person with no experience before I hired a graduate from my
    > college/degree plan with no experience, without question. I am willing
    > to bet a vast majority of my co-students would agree with me in fact,
    > we talk about it all the time.


    You should probable spend more time listening to your profs and less bs'ing
    in the coffeeshop. If your co-students agree with you, they are wrong too.
    If your college REALLY has that flawed a curriculum, then why are you
    continuing to attend? There are other colleges out there that would be
    happy to take your tuition money. That aside, I AM an hiring manager and
    have been in the workforce for many years. My company's (like many others
    with an IT staff) hiring prefs are:

    1. Degree, Experienced, Certified
    2. Degree, Experienced
    3. Experienced, Certified
    4. Degree, Inexperienced, Certified
    5. Degree, Inexperienced
    6. Inexperienced, Certified

    And in that exact order. Where will you be when you come banging on my
    door?

    --
    JaR
    Thug 10110
    MCNGP.com Dept of Employment Counseling
     
    JaR, Jul 12, 2005
    #15
  16. Cert value has been downgraded due to the proliferation of cheat sites. This
    does not mean it does not have value.

    College is useful, but at the start of your career, college and career will
    get you farther than college alone. WIth the former, you have four years of
    part time experience along with your college. FOr many, career alone is the
    best option to start out and then get college later when you are already
    making money. If you go this route, work on some sample apps, even donating
    development time to organizations, to get some samples you can show
    perspective employers. Find out the types of businesses that are heaviest in
    your market and make samples apps that appeal to those types of businesses.

    I am not deriding college (have a BA myself), but four years of experience
    up front can get you farther than getting an BS degree in computer science.

    --
    Gregory A. Beamer
    MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

    ***************************
    Think Outside the Box!
    ***************************


    "Sean" wrote:

    > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question is
    > a bit different.
    >
    > I am an IST major and people at my college don’t seem to take certifications
    > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
    > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door
    > then a degree.
    > Our program manager said “a certification cant replace an ‘entire’ courseâ€.
    > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306 would
    > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
    >
     
    =?Utf-8?B?Q293Ym95IChHcmVnb3J5IEEuIEJlYW1lcikgLSBN, Jul 14, 2005
    #16
  17. Creating my own app is basically what I did this summer.
    I had the option of either an internship or studying for MCAD and creating
    an application for a friend of mines office. I picked the latter.

    Namely because I have seen what these guys do for internship....not much.

    creating my own application I had the power to take it any direction I
    wanted and show my planning skills etc.

    I havent cheated (didnt even know one could) on my MCAD and I know there is
    no job out there that could teach me as much in the same amount of hours so I
    perfered to go that way for now. Next semester I start looking for part time
    work.
    I did this namely becuase my degree plan is extreemly abstract and doesnt
    really tell an employer which direction one is serious about going (ie
    networking, developing, training) and having MCAD on the resume instead of me
    just saying " I want to do software" I felt was a bit mo better.

    "Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer) - MVP" wrote:

    > Cert value has been downgraded due to the proliferation of cheat sites. This
    > does not mean it does not have value.
    >
    > College is useful, but at the start of your career, college and career will
    > get you farther than college alone. WIth the former, you have four years of
    > part time experience along with your college. FOr many, career alone is the
    > best option to start out and then get college later when you are already
    > making money. If you go this route, work on some sample apps, even donating
    > development time to organizations, to get some samples you can show
    > perspective employers. Find out the types of businesses that are heaviest in
    > your market and make samples apps that appeal to those types of businesses.
    >
    > I am not deriding college (have a BA myself), but four years of experience
    > up front can get you farther than getting an BS degree in computer science.
    >
    > --
    > Gregory A. Beamer
    > MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
    >
    > ***************************
    > Think Outside the Box!
    > ***************************
    >
    >
    > "Sean" wrote:
    >
    > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question is
    > > a bit different.
    > >
    > > I am an IST major and people at my college don’t seem to take certifications
    > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
    > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door
    > > then a degree.
    > > Our program manager said “a certification cant replace an ‘entire’ courseâ€.
    > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306 would
    > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
    > >
     
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jul 21, 2005
    #17
    1. Advertising

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