Clarification of ADSL service offerings in NZ.

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Crash, Jan 30, 2007.

  1. Crash

    Crash Guest

    Greetings all,

    Just wondering how ISPs operate in NZ. Some contributors here refer to ISPs as
    offering a 're badged' Telecom/Xtra service. My understanding is that at least
    some ISPs (such as Orcon) offer an independent ISP service.

    A 're badged' service implies that the ISP depends on both Telecom and Xtra to
    provide core services to the ISP - that (for example) mail servers appear to be
    provided by the ISP but are really provided by Xtra. In this scenario the ISP
    is totally constrained by the quality of service provided to them by both
    Telecom and Xtra - and they have to compete against the retail pricing offered
    by Xtra.

    An 'independent' service implies that there is no connection between the ISP and
    Xtra - but inevitably there is a dependence between the ISP and Telecom - for
    'last mile' connectivity to customers and shared Telecom back-haul resources as
    possibly access to 'the internet' in general (ie through the Southern Cross
    cable etc.).

    The difference is that 'independent' ISPs, except for having to use Telecom
    backhaul and last-mile copper, are otherwise independent (i.e. use no Xtra
    services). Apart from the cost of Telecom-provided services they are free to
    provide whatever packages they wish.

    As far as I know Orcon are an 'independent'.

    Have I got this wrong? If not - which ISPs are in what category - and why do
    the 'independents' follow Xtra service packages so closely?

    Crash.
     
    Crash, Jan 30, 2007
    #1
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  2. Crash

    Phil Guest

    Crash wrote, On 30/01/07 5.28 p:
    > Just wondering how ISPs operate in NZ. Some contributors here refer to ISPs as
    > offering a 're badged' Telecom/Xtra service. My understanding is that at least
    > some ISPs (such as Orcon) offer an independent ISP service.


    All ISPs in New Zealand depend on Telecom New Zealand to provide:
    - The connection from the customer to the exchange
    - The connection from the exchange to the ISP (ISPs can have handover
    points anywhere in the country, and Telecom offers their network to
    haul data between those points)

    Once you're data is at the ISP, it's up to them (the ISP) to decide who
    carries it from there.

    Because Telecom controls the exchange, they offer one of two pipes to
    ISPs to sell as plans (FS/128 and FS/FS). The actual service offered by
    ISPs is up to them.

    Basically, there are no truly 'independent' ISPs -- Telecom has total
    control over part of the process (the You <-> ISP part), the rest is up
    to your ISP. But by your definition, all ISPs are -- Xtra is not
    involved in any of this, they're an ISP just like any other (except for
    getting preferential treatment from Telecom).

    -Phil
     
    Phil, Jan 30, 2007
    #2
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  3. Crash

    Crash Guest

    Phil wrote:
    > Crash wrote, On 30/01/07 5.28 p:
    >> Just wondering how ISPs operate in NZ. Some contributors here refer
    >> to ISPs as offering a 're badged' Telecom/Xtra service. My
    >> understanding is that at least some ISPs (such as Orcon) offer an
    >> independent ISP service.

    >
    > All ISPs in New Zealand depend on Telecom New Zealand to provide:
    > - The connection from the customer to the exchange
    > - The connection from the exchange to the ISP (ISPs can have handover
    > points anywhere in the country, and Telecom offers their network to
    > haul data between those points)
    >
    > Once you're data is at the ISP, it's up to them (the ISP) to decide who
    > carries it from there.
    >
    > Because Telecom controls the exchange, they offer one of two pipes to
    > ISPs to sell as plans (FS/128 and FS/FS). The actual service offered by
    > ISPs is up to them.
    >
    > Basically, there are no truly 'independent' ISPs -- Telecom has total
    > control over part of the process (the You <-> ISP part), the rest is up
    > to your ISP. But by your definition, all ISPs are -- Xtra is not
    > involved in any of this, they're an ISP just like any other (except for
    > getting preferential treatment from Telecom).
    >

    Thanks for that. What you are saying then is that in NZ all ISPs are what I
    defined as 'independent'.

    If that is the case then there is no ISP is reselling a service provided
    entirely by Telecom/Xtra but in the ISPs name. This is what I would have
    thought a 're-badged' service is.

    Crash.
     
    Crash, Jan 30, 2007
    #3
  4. Crash

    Crash Guest

    Blue wrote:
    > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:28:38 +1300, Crash wrote:
    >
    >> Have I got this wrong? If not - which ISPs are in what category - and why do
    >> the 'independents' follow Xtra service packages so closely?

    >
    > Market forces. Telecom is *the* major player and thus it sets the price.
    > The rest just follow along and take extra profit if that is the case.
    >

    But Telecom monopolises the connection from the ISP to the customer except where
    TelstraClear cable is available. Telecom pricing of that connection would play
    a big part in the ISPs price for services.
    > Real competition happens when there are several, 4 or more, asking for the
    > customers $.
    >

    Agreed - but given the Telecom near-monopoly does that mean that ISPs need a
    choice of 4 or more service-providers to connect to their customers? Probably.

    Crash.
     
    Crash, Jan 30, 2007
    #4
  5. Crash

    Phil Guest

    Crash wrote, On 30/01/07 9.37 p:
    > If that is the case then there is no ISP is reselling a service provided
    > entirely by Telecom/Xtra but in the ISPs name. This is what I would have
    > thought a 're-badged' service is.


    With FS/FS lines, the ISP is free to make up whatever speed limits, data
    caps, and charge what they want (but of course, they have to pay Telecom
    for each of these lines).

    -Phil
     
    Phil, Jan 30, 2007
    #5
  6. Crash

    David Empson Guest

    Crash <> wrote:

    > Phil wrote:
    > > Basically, there are no truly 'independent' ISPs -- Telecom has total
    > > control over part of the process (the You <-> ISP part), the rest is up
    > > to your ISP. But by your definition, all ISPs are -- Xtra is not
    > > involved in any of this, they're an ISP just like any other (except for
    > > getting preferential treatment from Telecom).
    > >

    > Thanks for that. What you are saying then is that in NZ all ISPs are what I
    > defined as 'independent'.


    That isn't entirely true.

    For some broadband plans, the service is being provided through your
    ISP, but a greater proportion of it is being implemented by Telecom
    and/or Xtra.

    > If that is the case then there is no ISP is reselling a service provided
    > entirely by Telecom/Xtra but in the ISPs name. This is what I would have
    > thought a 're-badged' service is.


    Case in point: the "Go Large" plan being offered by Xtra is also
    available through other ISPs. As far as I know every ISP is actually
    on-selling the same service being implemented by Telecom.

    Telecom is responsible for allocating the IP address to the customer,
    supplies the DNS servers, and implements the traffic shaping and "fair
    use" policy. The port 25 blocking rule imposed by Xtra also affects all
    Go Large customers for other ISPs.

    Your ISP is still responsible for supplying a mail server and other
    facilities. To get around port 25 blocking, the connection to your ISP's
    mail server to send mail requires an SSL connection on a different port,
    and an authenticated login.

    I'm not sure what happens when a non-Xtra Go Large customer does
    something like access an overseas web site. It is possible that Telecom
    is entirely responsible for the traffic, or it might pass through the
    ISP's routers before going back out again. I didn't do any detailed
    inspection of traceroutes while I was briefly on Go Large with Actrix.

    However it works, the end result was abysmally slow international
    traffic at busy times of the day. National traffic was sluggish.

    I hated it and went back to a normal ADSL plan after about three weeks
    of hell.

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, Jan 30, 2007
    #6
  7. Crash

    ~misfit~ Guest

    David Empson wrote:
    > Crash <> wrote:
    >
    > > Phil wrote:
    > > > Basically, there are no truly 'independent' ISPs -- Telecom has
    > > > total control over part of the process (the You <-> ISP part),
    > > > the rest is up to your ISP. But by your definition, all ISPs are
    > > > -- Xtra is not involved in any of this, they're an ISP just like
    > > > any other (except for getting preferential treatment from
    > > > Telecom).
    > > >

    > > Thanks for that. What you are saying then is that in NZ all ISPs
    > > are what I defined as 'independent'.

    >
    > That isn't entirely true.


    In fact isn't it entirely untrue? Aren't virtually all plans reliant on UBS,
    a wholesale product sold and controlled by Telecom/Xtra?

    > For some broadband plans, the service is being provided through your
    > ISP, but a greater proportion of it is being implemented by Telecom
    > and/or Xtra.


    Yeah, like Unbundled Bitsream S...(hit?) It's my understanding that most
    non-Go Large plans are UBS, meaning Telecom handle the data throughout the
    National stages. Once it gets overseas it's provisioned by the ISP.

    Could be wrong....

    > > If that is the case then there is no ISP is reselling a service
    > > provided entirely by Telecom/Xtra but in the ISPs name. This is
    > > what I would have thought a 're-badged' service is.

    >
    > Case in point: the "Go Large" plan being offered by Xtra is also
    > available through other ISPs. As far as I know every ISP is actually
    > on-selling the same service being implemented by Telecom.
    >
    > Telecom is responsible for allocating the IP address to the customer,
    > supplies the DNS servers, and implements the traffic shaping and "fair
    > use" policy. The port 25 blocking rule imposed by Xtra also affects
    > all Go Large customers for other ISPs.


    Yup, Go Large is the new Jetstream.

    > Your ISP is still responsible for supplying a mail server and other
    > facilities. To get around port 25 blocking, the connection to your
    > ISP's mail server to send mail requires an SSL connection on a
    > different port, and an authenticated login.
    >
    > I'm not sure what happens when a non-Xtra Go Large customer does
    > something like access an overseas web site. It is possible that
    > Telecom is entirely responsible for the traffic, or it might pass
    > through the ISP's routers before going back out again. I didn't do
    > any detailed inspection of traceroutes while I was briefly on Go
    > Large with Actrix.


    Niether did I. I was in much too much of a hurry trying to get the hell off
    it.

    > However it works, the end result was abysmally slow international
    > traffic at busy times of the day. National traffic was sluggish.
    >
    > I hated it and went back to a normal ADSL plan after about three weeks
    > of hell.


    Ditto.

    Did you see that crock of shit on Campbell Live tonight? It was almost
    believeable (the motorway analogy) until you realise that plans like
    Actrix's Cyberjet use that same copper and *don't* have the major road
    blocks that Telecom would have us believe are an inherant problem.

    Cheers,
    --
    Shaun.
     
    ~misfit~, Jan 30, 2007
    #7
  8. Crash

    Phil Guest

    David Empson wrote, On 31/01/07 12.41 a:
    > Case in point: the "Go Large" plan being offered by Xtra is also
    > available through other ISPs. As far as I know every ISP is actually
    > on-selling the same service being implemented by Telecom.


    The other ISPs are selling their own service based on the pipes that
    Telecom supplies them. Xtra have *nothing* to do with it.

    > Telecom is responsible for allocating the IP address to the customer,
    > supplies the DNS servers, and implements the traffic shaping and "fair
    > use" policy. The port 25 blocking rule imposed by Xtra also affects all
    > Go Large customers for other ISPs.


    Your ISP does all of this, not Telecom or Xtra (unless your ISP *is* Xtra).

    > I hated it and went back to a normal ADSL plan after about three weeks
    > of hell.


    What's a normal ADSL plan?

    -Phil
     
    Phil, Jan 30, 2007
    #8
  9. Crash

    jasen Guest

    On 2007-01-30, Phil <> wrote:
    > Crash wrote, On 30/01/07 5.28 p:
    >> Just wondering how ISPs operate in NZ. Some contributors here refer to ISPs as
    >> offering a 're badged' Telecom/Xtra service. My understanding is that at least
    >> some ISPs (such as Orcon) offer an independent ISP service.

    >
    > All ISPs in New Zealand depend on Telecom New Zealand to provide:
    > - The connection from the customer to the exchange
    > - The connection from the exchange to the ISP (ISPs can have handover
    > points anywhere in the country, and Telecom offers their network to
    > haul data between those points)


    Nope, one can get telstra DSL on telstra copper.
    There's also cable, wireless, and satellite, providers,

    Bye.
    Jasen
     
    jasen, Jan 30, 2007
    #9
  10. Crash

    David Empson Guest

    Phil <> wrote:

    > David Empson wrote, On 31/01/07 12.41 a:
    > > Case in point: the "Go Large" plan being offered by Xtra is also
    > > available through other ISPs. As far as I know every ISP is actually
    > > on-selling the same service being implemented by Telecom.

    >
    > The other ISPs are selling their own service based on the pipes that
    > Telecom supplies them. Xtra have *nothing* to do with it.


    I didn't say that Xtra was involved. I said that a plan with the same
    characteristics as the Go Large plan offered by Xtra is also available
    through other ISPs. It is my contention that this plan is implemented by
    Telecom and onsold by the ISPs (including Xtra).

    > > Telecom is responsible for allocating the IP address to the customer,
    > > supplies the DNS servers, and implements the traffic shaping and "fair
    > > use" policy. The port 25 blocking rule imposed by Xtra also affects all
    > > Go Large customers for other ISPs.

    >
    > Your ISP does all of this, not Telecom or Xtra (unless your ISP *is* Xtra).


    I had a Go Large plan with Actrix for three weeks after previously being
    on CyberJet, which is their standard ADSL plan (equivalent to Xtra's
    plans other than Go Large, but with different pricing, speed and data
    caps).

    On an Actrix CyberJet plan, my modem logged in using a
    cyberjet.actrix.co.nz domain name, the IP address was in a range
    supplied by Actrix, the automatically configured DNS servers belonged to
    Actrix, and I had direct access to Actrix's mail and news servers
    without having to jump through extra hoops.

    When I switched to Go Large, I had to change the login details to use
    jestream.actrix.co.nz, the IP address I was assigned was in a range
    owned by Telecom, the automatically configured DNS servers belonged to
    Telecom, and I had to change my e-mail and news clients to use
    authenticated logins to get to Actrix's mail and news servers. Sending
    mail also required the use of SSL with a different port number, because
    port 25 was blocked. (I didn't try using Xtra's mail server to send
    mail, but I expect it would have worked.)

    As for the traffic shaping: if this is implemented by each ISP, it is a
    staggering cooincidence that every ISP has *exactly the same* traffic
    shaping and fair use policy for Go Large customers.

    The only reasonable explanation is that Telecom implements all of this
    and on-sells the package to the ISP. Xtra or another ISP are offering
    the same product (implemented by Telecom) except for a few things like
    the mail, news and web servers.

    > > I hated it and went back to a normal ADSL plan after about three weeks
    > > of hell.

    >
    > What's a normal ADSL plan?


    One which has a data cap, doesn't have an official traffic management
    policy and fair use mechanism to limit usage during peak periods, and
    which actually works as advertised.

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, Jan 30, 2007
    #10
  11. Crash

    David Empson Guest

    ~misfit~ <> wrote:

    > David Empson wrote:
    > > Crash <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Phil wrote:
    > > > > Basically, there are no truly 'independent' ISPs -- Telecom has
    > > > > total control over part of the process (the You <-> ISP part),
    > > > > the rest is up to your ISP. But by your definition, all ISPs are
    > > > > -- Xtra is not involved in any of this, they're an ISP just like
    > > > > any other (except for getting preferential treatment from
    > > > > Telecom).
    > > > >
    > > > Thanks for that. What you are saying then is that in NZ all ISPs
    > > > are what I defined as 'independent'.

    > >
    > > That isn't entirely true.

    >
    > In fact isn't it entirely untrue? Aren't virtually all plans reliant on UBS,
    > a wholesale product sold and controlled by Telecom/Xtra?


    That wasn't in dispute - Telecom provides a large amount of
    infrastructure to get access to the ISP.

    It isn't controlled by Xtra, per se - it is defined by Telecom and sold
    by Xtra. The UBS plans offered by Telecom have the same characteristics
    as the Xtra retail plans.

    I think ISPs still have access to some other plans: they aren't forced
    to use UBS, but I don't fully understand this area. For example, I don't
    think Actrix's CyberJet plans are using UBS, because they have quite
    different characteristics, such as a wider range of speed caps, daily
    volume cap rather than monthly, slow down when the limit is reached.

    > > For some broadband plans, the service is being provided through your
    > > ISP, but a greater proportion of it is being implemented by Telecom
    > > and/or Xtra.

    >
    > Yeah, like Unbundled Bitsream S...(hit?) It's my understanding that most
    > non-Go Large plans are UBS, meaning Telecom handle the data throughout the
    > National stages. Once it gets overseas it's provisioned by the ISP.
    >
    > Could be wrong....


    It is hard to tell from something like a traceroute. If I try to connect
    to an overseas site, there is no visible "actrix" domain name in the
    chain of local connections. Several connections.net.nz domains, then it
    seems to go through telstraclear.net for quite a few destinations
    (amusingly, including www.telecom.co.nz). I expect some of the later
    connections.net.nz routers belong to Actrix or at least are used by
    Actrix for traffic counting and routing for their customers.

    > Did you see that crock of shit on Campbell Live tonight? It was almost
    > believeable (the motorway analogy) until you realise that plans like
    > Actrix's Cyberjet use that same copper and *don't* have the major road
    > blocks that Telecom would have us believe are an inherant problem.


    Didn't see it (was still at work).
    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, Jan 30, 2007
    #11
  12. Crash

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Phil wrote:
    > David Empson wrote, On 31/01/07 12.41 a:
    > > Case in point: the "Go Large" plan being offered by Xtra is also
    > > available through other ISPs. As far as I know every ISP is actually
    > > on-selling the same service being implemented by Telecom.

    >
    > The other ISPs are selling their own service based on the pipes that
    > Telecom supplies them. Xtra have *nothing* to do with it.
    >
    > > Telecom is responsible for allocating the IP address to the
    > > customer, supplies the DNS servers, and implements the traffic
    > > shaping and "fair use" policy. The port 25 blocking rule imposed by
    > > Xtra also affects all Go Large customers for other ISPs.

    >
    > Your ISP does all of this, not Telecom or Xtra (unless your ISP *is*
    > Xtra).


    You're wrong on this Phil. Completely and utterly wrong. Have you been on Go
    Large through another ISP? (I have).

    The folks at Actrix told me that, if you get Go Large through them (as I did
    briefly) all they do is tell you how to log onto their NNTP/mail servers
    using authentication (as you are no longer connecting through their own
    network) and *everything* else is handled by Xtra.

    > > I hated it and went back to a normal ADSL plan after about three
    > > weeks of hell.

    >
    > What's a normal ADSL plan?


    Anything that isn't Go Large.
    --
    Shaun.
     
    ~misfit~, Jan 30, 2007
    #12
  13. Crash

    ~misfit~ Guest

    David Empson wrote:
    > ~misfit~ <> wrote:
    >
    > > David Empson wrote:
    > > > Crash <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Phil wrote:
    > > > > > Basically, there are no truly 'independent' ISPs -- Telecom
    > > > > > has total control over part of the process (the You <-> ISP
    > > > > > part), the rest is up to your ISP. But by your definition,
    > > > > > all ISPs are -- Xtra is not involved in any of this, they're
    > > > > > an ISP just like any other (except for getting preferential
    > > > > > treatment from Telecom).
    > > > > >
    > > > > Thanks for that. What you are saying then is that in NZ all
    > > > > ISPs are what I defined as 'independent'.
    > > >
    > > > That isn't entirely true.

    > >
    > > In fact isn't it entirely untrue? Aren't virtually all plans
    > > reliant on UBS, a wholesale product sold and controlled by
    > > Telecom/Xtra?

    >
    > That wasn't in dispute - Telecom provides a large amount of
    > infrastructure to get access to the ISP.
    >
    > It isn't controlled by Xtra, per se - it is defined by Telecom and
    > sold by Xtra. The UBS plans offered by Telecom have the same
    > characteristics as the Xtra retail plans.
    >
    > I think ISPs still have access to some other plans: they aren't forced
    > to use UBS, but I don't fully understand this area. For example, I
    > don't think Actrix's CyberJet plans are using UBS, because they have
    > quite different characteristics, such as a wider range of speed caps,
    > daily volume cap rather than monthly, slow down when the limit is
    > reached.


    30 seconds on the phone would have cleared that up for you. I just rang
    Actrix helpdesk and Darren said that Cyberjet is indeed a UBS product, as
    are all of their residential ADSL plans. (And residential plans of all other
    ISPs who offer ADSL and don't own their own copper AFATK).

    Non-UBS ADSL is *way* too expensive for residential use and even smaller
    commercial plans apparently. It's (Telecom set) price puts it in the
    "mission-critical only" bracket, rserved for big corperations or folks with
    very deep pockets.

    > > > For some broadband plans, the service is being provided through
    > > > your ISP, but a greater proportion of it is being implemented by
    > > > Telecom and/or Xtra.

    > >
    > > Yeah, like Unbundled Bitsream S...(hit?) It's my understanding that
    > > most non-Go Large plans are UBS, meaning Telecom handle the data
    > > throughout the National stages. Once it gets overseas it's
    > > provisioned by the ISP.
    > >
    > > Could be wrong....

    >
    > It is hard to tell from something like a traceroute. If I try to
    > connect to an overseas site, there is no visible "actrix" domain name
    > in the chain of local connections. Several connections.net.nz
    > domains, then it seems to go through telstraclear.net for quite a few
    > destinations (amusingly, including www.telecom.co.nz). I expect some
    > of the later connections.net.nz routers belong to Actrix or at least
    > are used by Actrix for traffic counting and routing for their
    > customers.


    It is hard to tell from traceroute. That's why I prefer to ring the ISPs and
    ask them.

    > > Did you see that crock of shit on Campbell Live tonight? It was
    > > almost believeable (the motorway analogy) until you realise that
    > > plans like Actrix's Cyberjet use that same copper and *don't* have
    > > the major road blocks that Telecom would have us believe are an
    > > inherant problem.

    >
    > Didn't see it (was still at work).


    You didn't miss much. Basically, the number one product in NZ with customers
    as far as dissatisfaction is concerned is 'broadband' with a whopping 96% of
    respondents saying it didn't live up to it's sales pitch and only 4% being
    satisfied with it. A Telecom manager was on the programme and agreed that
    they had problems, gave a motorway analogy, saying 'unleashing' and 'go
    large' had only increased the number of on-ramps but hadn't done anything
    about the motorway itself. She then went on to say that only 10% of
    customers had 'bad' connections. That completely disagreed with the survey
    and Campbell didn't dispute it, despite him saying that his connections was
    one of the of the ones that had suffered, and the Telecom person saying hers
    was also worse.

    Geoff Palmer (I think) bemoaned the fact that we have the worst contention
    ratios in the OECD... The usual stuff really.
    --
    Shaun.
     
    ~misfit~, Jan 30, 2007
    #13
  14. Crash

    Mark C Guest

    Crash <> wrote in
    news:45becd1d$:

    > Just wondering how ISPs operate in NZ. Some contributors here
    > refer to ISPs as offering a 're badged' Telecom/Xtra service.
    > My understanding is that at least some ISPs (such as Orcon)
    > offer an independent ISP service.


    ISPs have the choice of using either Telecom's UBS or WBS.

    Most choose to use UBS:
    http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,8748,204215-204225,00.html

    UBS is ADSL access across the copper to the first ATM data switch,
    and optional backhaul from there to the ISP.

    Some (smaller) ISPs choose instead to resell WBS:
    http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,8748,204215-204225,00.html

    WBS is simply resold Xtra plans (but not including mailservers).

    Some ISPs use UBS but also resell the WBS Cabriolet/Go Large plan
    (maxnet for example).

    > A 're badged' service implies that the ISP depends on both
    > Telecom and Xtra to provide core services to the ISP - that (for
    > example) mail servers appear to be provided by the ISP but are
    > really provided by Xtra.


    With the WBS product, ISPs provide their own mail and news
    servers. Telecom provides all other national and international
    bandwidth.

    > In this scenario the ISP is totally constrained by the quality
    > of service provided to them by both Telecom and Xtra - and they
    > have to compete against the retail pricing offered by Xtra.


    Yes.

    > ... Apart from the cost of Telecom-provided services they are
    > free to provide whatever packages they wish.


    Subject also to Telecom's crap quality of service commitments.
    (For example, ping < 2 seconds.)

    > As far as I know Orcon are an 'independent'.


    They only use the UBS product.

    > Have I got this wrong? If not - which ISPs are in what category
    > - and why do the 'independents' follow Xtra service packages so
    > closely?


    I know maxnet use mostly USB but do also resell WBS Cabriolet/Go
    Large.
    ISPs using WBS by definition follow Xtra's plans.
    ISPs using UBS may choose to loosely match Xtra's plans for
    competitive or marketing reasons.

    Mark
     
    Mark C, Jan 31, 2007
    #14
  15. Crash

    Earl Grey Guest

    jasen wrote:
    > On 2007-01-30, Phil <> wrote:
    >> Crash wrote, On 30/01/07 5.28 p:
    >>> Just wondering how ISPs operate in NZ. Some contributors here refer to ISPs as
    >>> offering a 're badged' Telecom/Xtra service. My understanding is that at least
    >>> some ISPs (such as Orcon) offer an independent ISP service.

    >> All ISPs in New Zealand depend on Telecom New Zealand to provide:
    >> - The connection from the customer to the exchange
    >> - The connection from the exchange to the ISP (ISPs can have handover
    >> points anywhere in the country, and Telecom offers their network to
    >> haul data between those points)

    >
    > Nope, one can get telstra DSL on telstra copper.
    > There's also cable, wireless, and satellite, providers,
    >
    > Bye.
    > Jasen


    Phil is correct, Telstra don't offer DSL on their networks in ch and wn
    that deliver coax tv/internet and phone pairs to domestic customers,
    because its a hybrid fiber-coaxial network
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fibre-coaxial
    It has copper pairs to the optical nodes, but they concentrate to
    optical to connect to the switch. It would be possible to site a DSLAM
    at the optical node, but pointless, the coax already has the cable
    internet services modulated all the way from the head end.
    I believe that the Clear lines are copper all the way capable of ADSL,
    but they are a business product.
    All current domestic ADSL products are dependent on Telecoms connection
    from the termination of the copper local loop at the Telecom DSLAM in
    the exchange to the ISP.
    That is the bottleneck, that is where the contention ratio is, that is
    the link which is oversubscribed, however you want to put it. Demand has
    outstripped supply
    Telstrclear cable customers don't have to contend with that particular
    bottleneck, but they do have other restrictions like no other isp
    options, no peering, local traffic charged as international because of
    no peering, etc.
     
    Earl Grey, Jan 31, 2007
    #15
  16. Crash

    none Guest

    ~misfit~ wrote:
    > The folks at Actrix told me that, if you get Go Large through them (as I did
    > briefly) all they do is tell you how to log onto their NNTP/mail servers
    > using authentication (as you are no longer connecting through their own
    > network) and *everything* else is handled by Xtra.


    Xtra != Telecom

    Go Large is sold wholesale to ISPs by Telecom. Not Xtra.

    Xtra are an ISP that sell retail services to consumers. Any ISP buying
    services wholesale deal with Telecom, not Xtra.

    In spite of the closeness of their operations, it is an important
    distinction.
     
    none, Jan 31, 2007
    #16
  17. Crash

    Blue Guest

    On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:28:38 +1300, Crash wrote:

    > Have I got this wrong? If not - which ISPs are in what category - and why do
    > the 'independents' follow Xtra service packages so closely?


    Market forces. Telecom is *the* major player and thus it sets the price.
    The rest just follow along and take extra profit if that is the case.

    Real competition happens when there are several, 4 or more, asking for the
    customers $.
     
    Blue, Jan 31, 2007
    #17
  18. Crash

    Phil Guest

    ~misfit~ wrote, On 31/01/07 11.28 a:
    > You're wrong on this Phil. Completely and utterly wrong. Have you been on Go
    > Large through another ISP? (I have).


    I'm probably missing something here: who else is selling the 'Go Large'
    plan apart from Xtra?

    I'm assuming that you're talking about this specific plan:
    <http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,8763,204548-203090,00.html?nv=sd>
    Not a generic FS/128 flat-rate plan from another ISP?

    -Phil
     
    Phil, Jan 31, 2007
    #18
  19. Crash

    Phil Guest

    Phil wrote, On 31/01/07 6.53 p:
    > ~misfit~ wrote, On 31/01/07 11.28 a:
    >> You're wrong on this Phil. Completely and utterly wrong. Have you been on Go
    >> Large through another ISP? (I have).

    >
    > I'm probably missing something here: who else is selling the 'Go Large'
    > plan apart from Xtra?
    >
    > I'm assuming that you're talking about this specific plan:
    > <http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,8763,204548-203090,00.html?nv=sd>
    > Not a generic FS/128 flat-rate plan from another ISP?


    Ok, I just read Actrix's website on this and they do appear to be
    reselling Telecom/Xtra's plan.

    I can't figure out why though -- I can only think that they're getting
    some discount from Telecom for this, but...

    -Phil
     
    Phil, Jan 31, 2007
    #19
  20. Crash

    Phil Guest

    Phil wrote, On 31/01/07 6.59 p:
    > I can't figure out why though -- I can only think that they're getting
    > some discount from Telecom for this, but...


    Aaaaand I just remembered about WBS :)

    -Phil
     
    Phil, Jan 31, 2007
    #20
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