Cheapest Full Frame Digital Camera?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by mutefan@yahoo.com, Nov 4, 2006.

  1. Bill Funk Guest

    On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 17:08:12 GMT, (Dr. Joel M. Hoffman)
    wrote:

    >>Aperture rings on lenses would be problematic; where would an aperture
    >>ring go on a short zoom lens? There's already a zoom and focus ring.
    >>And it would need another switch - manual/auto.
    >>And there's the question of marketability; how many people want the
    >>added cost and complexity? How many would buy such a lens? Probably
    >>not many.

    >
    >I wouldn't put the aperture ring on the lens. I'd put an electronic
    >dial on the lens-mount.
    >
    >-Joel


    On the mount? How would it be operated? Would the mount be extended,
    making other lenses unable to focus to infinity?
    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Nov 8, 2006
    #41
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  2. Mark² Guest

    Bill Funk wrote:
    > On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:14:48 +1000, Graham Fountain <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Mark² wrote:
    >>
    >>> Four: If you would prefer help as a new DSLR shooter from the modes
    >>> which lesser Canon cameras have (Sports mode, Landscape mode,
    >>> Macro, etc.)...it is assumed that you know how to do that, and you
    >>> are therefore NOT given these modes--You've got to create the
    >>> settings yourself.

    >> What I want to know is - why do I have to spend $5k(AUS) to get rid
    >> of this feature.
    >> Why can't someone come out with a camera that has an aperture ring
    >> and a shutter dial and that's it. Add a "match-the-needle"
    >> viewfinder for good measure and we're done. The shutter dial could
    >> have an A position for
    >> the lazy, and the aperture ring could have an A position. Full auto -
    >> both on A. Shutter on A, selected aperture = aperture priority.
    >> Aperture on A, shutter selected = Shutter priority. Select both
    >> aperture and shutter, and you have full manual. No messing around
    >> with mode dials and wheels. No "push this button while turning the
    >> wheel to select
    >> aperture". Just simple straightforward and logical controls.
    >> The 5D almost gets there, the new Pana sort of does it, but again
    >> both
    >> are expensive cameras. Why does a camera have to be expensive to be
    >> simple?

    >
    > Aperture rings on lenses would be problematic; where would an aperture
    > ring go on a short zoom lens? There's already a zoom and focus ring.
    > And it would need another switch - manual/auto.
    > And there's the question of marketability; how many people want the
    > added cost and complexity? How many would buy such a lens? Probably
    > not many.


    I agree with that (by the way...your quote attributed words to me that I
    didn't write...)
    With the existing system, I adjust aperture and shutter identically...no
    matter which lens I have attached to the camera. With rings on each lens,
    there would be constant re-adjustment based on each lens' size and layout.
    Body-based controls mean consistency across the entire line of
    lenses...whether they're 400mm or 50mm.

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Nov 9, 2006
    #42
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  3. Skip Guest

    "Dr. Joel M. Hoffman" <> wrote in message
    news:Bkl4h.4$...

    >
    > The dials are simply digital controls, and they can go anywhere. Why
    > not put them where the photographer's fingers are?
    >
    > (Am I right that Nikkon does a better job with this?)
    >
    > -Joel


    Hmmm, I've found that the rear wheel falls readily to thumb when my index
    finger is on the shutter button. This on my A2, 1n, D30, 20D and 5D.

    --
    Skip Middleton
    www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
    www.pbase.com/skipm
     
    Skip, Nov 9, 2006
    #43
  4. Skip Guest

    "Dr. Joel M. Hoffman" <> wrote in message
    news:y8o4h.63$...
    >>> The dials are simply digital controls, and they can go anywhere. Why
    >>> not put them where the photographer's fingers are?

    >>
    >>It's placed almost exactly where my right thumb wants to rest. Works
    >>just fine with that digit. My hands are average.

    >
    > I find that I have to move the camera from my eye to make room for my
    > thumb to get to the dial. But other than that, it's a fine second
    > choice, and certainly better than the Rebel's solution.
    >
    > -Joel
    >

    Yeah, my daughter has an Xt, and I find it impossible to navigate. OTOH,
    she finds the 5D rather obscure...

    --
    Skip Middleton
    www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
    www.pbase.com/skipm
     
    Skip, Nov 9, 2006
    #44
  5. Mark² Guest

    Dr. Joel M. Hoffman wrote:
    >> The 30D, which is meant to be an upgrade (and it does feel nicer to
    >> hold), is even worse on the user interface. In Tv the dial near the
    >> shutter changes shutter speed. In Av it changes aperture. In M, the
    >> dial near the shutter does shutter speed, and it is now the back
    >> dial for aperture. Depending on what mode we are in, the dial to
    >> change aperture changes - pretty dumb situation. Not only that, but
    >> the dial is in the most awkward possible position to try and access
    >> if you are holding the camera to your face - it's awkward
    >> positioning makes it even harder to use than pushing the +/- button
    >> as on the Rebel.

    >
    > You get used to the back dial. (I did with the Elan IIe.) But of
    > course you're right. If you're holding the camera properly, there are
    > two places your hands can conveniently adjust things; near the
    > shutter button, and on the lens.
    >
    > The dials are simply digital controls, and they can go anywhere. Why
    > not put them where the photographer's fingers are?


    I frankly don't see the problem here.
    For me, the dials are a perfect fit, and completely natural in use.
    In fact, the rear dial can be turned from within MORE than an inch of
    area...depending on which side of the dial you choose to turn. This
    actually offers greater variability of finger placement for each user.
    Works for me... It also means you don't have to be sure your finger is on
    the proper button. If you're touching the very large dial, you're there.
    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Nov 9, 2006
    #45
  6. Mark² Guest

    Mark² wrote:
    > Dr. Joel M. Hoffman wrote:
    >>> The 30D, which is meant to be an upgrade (and it does feel nicer to
    >>> hold), is even worse on the user interface. In Tv the dial near the
    >>> shutter changes shutter speed. In Av it changes aperture. In M, the
    >>> dial near the shutter does shutter speed, and it is now the back
    >>> dial for aperture. Depending on what mode we are in, the dial to
    >>> change aperture changes - pretty dumb situation. Not only that, but
    >>> the dial is in the most awkward possible position to try and access
    >>> if you are holding the camera to your face - it's awkward
    >>> positioning makes it even harder to use than pushing the +/- button
    >>> as on the Rebel.

    >>
    >> You get used to the back dial. (I did with the Elan IIe.) But of
    >> course you're right. If you're holding the camera properly, there
    >> are two places your hands can conveniently adjust things; near the
    >> shutter button, and on the lens.
    >>
    >> The dials are simply digital controls, and they can go anywhere. Why
    >> not put them where the photographer's fingers are?

    >
    > I frankly don't see the problem here.
    > For me, the dials are a perfect fit, and completely natural in use.
    > In fact, the rear dial can be turned from within MORE than an inch of
    > area...depending on which side of the dial you choose to turn. This
    > actually offers greater variability of finger placement for each user.
    > Works for me... It also means you don't have to be sure your finger
    > is on the proper button. If you're touching the very large dial,
    > you're there.


    I'm referring to D30, 10D, 20D, 5D bodies.

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Nov 9, 2006
    #46
  7. Guest

    Graham Fountain wrote:
    > Mark² wrote:
    >
    > > Four: If you would prefer help as a new DSLR shooter from the modes which
    > > lesser Canon cameras have (Sports mode, Landscape mode, Macro, etc.)...it is
    > > assumed that you know how to do that, and you are therefore NOT given these
    > > modes--You've got to create the settings yourself.

    > What I want to know is - why do I have to spend $5k(AUS) to get rid of
    > this feature.
    > Why can't someone come out with a camera that has an aperture ring and a
    > shutter dial and that's it. Add a "match-the-needle" viewfinder for good
    > measure and we're done. The shutter dial could have an A position for
    > the lazy, and the aperture ring could have an A position. Full auto -
    > both on A. Shutter on A, selected aperture = aperture priority. Aperture
    > on A, shutter selected = Shutter priority. Select both aperture and
    > shutter, and you have full manual. No messing around with mode dials and
    > wheels. No "push this button while turning the wheel to select
    > aperture". Just simple straightforward and logical controls.
    > The 5D almost gets there, the new Pana sort of does it, but again both
    > are expensive cameras. Why does a camera have to be expensive to be simple?
    > >
    > > These are just a few examples.
    > >

    Graham Fountain wrote:
    > Mark² wrote:
    >
    > > Four: If you would prefer help as a new DSLR shooter from the modes which
    > > lesser Canon cameras have (Sports mode, Landscape mode, Macro, etc.)...it is
    > > assumed that you know how to do that, and you are therefore NOT given these
    > > modes--You've got to create the settings yourself.

    > What I want to know is - why do I have to spend $5k(AUS) to get rid of
    > this feature.
    > Why can't someone come out with a camera that has an aperture ring and a
    > shutter dial and that's it. Add a "match-the-needle" viewfinder for good
    > measure and we're done. The shutter dial could have an A position for
    > the lazy, and the aperture ring could have an A position. Full auto -
    > both on A. Shutter on A, selected aperture = aperture priority. Aperture
    > on A, shutter selected = Shutter priority. Select both aperture and
    > shutter, and you have full manual. No messing around with mode dials and
    > wheels. No "push this button while turning the wheel to select
    > aperture". Just simple straightforward and logical controls.
    > The 5D almost gets there, the new Pana sort of does it, but again both
    > are expensive cameras. Why does a camera have to be expensive to be simple?
    > >
    > > These are just a few examples.
    > >


    This is actually a great design idea. I miss the aparture ring!!!
     
    , Nov 9, 2006
    #47
  8. In article <>, Bill Funk
    <> writes
    >On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 17:08:12 GMT, (Dr. Joel M. Hoffman)
    >wrote:
    >
    >>>Aperture rings on lenses would be problematic; where would an aperture
    >>>ring go on a short zoom lens? There's already a zoom and focus ring.
    >>>And it would need another switch - manual/auto.
    >>>And there's the question of marketability; how many people want the
    >>>added cost and complexity? How many would buy such a lens? Probably
    >>>not many.

    >>
    >>I wouldn't put the aperture ring on the lens. I'd put an electronic
    >>dial on the lens-mount.
    >>
    >>-Joel

    >
    >On the mount?


    No problem.

    > How would it be operated?


    Thumb and/or forefinger of left hand.

    >Would the mount be extended,
    >making other lenses unable to focus to infinity?


    No.

    Ever seen the Nikormat or Olympus OM cameras with shutter dials on the
    lens mount? No problem with focus of any lenses. Same position could
    easily be used for an aperture (or even a shutter speed) control on a
    DSLR today.
    --
    Kennedy
    Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
    A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
    Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
     
    Kennedy McEwen, Nov 11, 2006
    #48
  9. Bill Funk Guest

    On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 03:29:11 +0000, Kennedy McEwen
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>, Bill Funk
    ><> writes
    >>On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 17:08:12 GMT, (Dr. Joel M. Hoffman)
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>>Aperture rings on lenses would be problematic; where would an aperture
    >>>>ring go on a short zoom lens? There's already a zoom and focus ring.
    >>>>And it would need another switch - manual/auto.
    >>>>And there's the question of marketability; how many people want the
    >>>>added cost and complexity? How many would buy such a lens? Probably
    >>>>not many.
    >>>
    >>>I wouldn't put the aperture ring on the lens. I'd put an electronic
    >>>dial on the lens-mount.
    >>>
    >>>-Joel

    >>
    >>On the mount?

    >
    >No problem.
    >
    >> How would it be operated?

    >
    >Thumb and/or forefinger of left hand.
    >
    >>Would the mount be extended,
    >>making other lenses unable to focus to infinity?

    >
    >No.
    >
    >Ever seen the Nikormat or Olympus OM cameras with shutter dials on the
    >lens mount? No problem with focus of any lenses. Same position could
    >easily be used for an aperture (or even a shutter speed) control on a
    >DSLR today.


    I never used those cameras.
    But, putting the aperture ring on a mount will extend the mount,
    moving the lens out, affecting its ability to focus.
    Not talking about old cameras here, but new ones.
    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Nov 12, 2006
    #49
  10. Geoffrey Guest

    Bill Funk wrote:
    > On 4 Nov 2006 05:13:32 -0800, wrote:
    >
    > >I still have time to cancel out the Rebel XTi 400D order. What is the
    > >cheapest full frame sensor camera, and does it obviate the need to
    > >purchase additional lenses in order to be worth the money?

    >
    > As others have pointed out, the Canon is the cheapest full-frame DSLR
    > being marketed now.
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5d/
    >
    > Does it obviate the need to purchase additional lenses in order to be
    > worth the money? Depends. What lenses do you have now? How good do you
    > want your pics to be? The 5D will take advantage of the best lenses
    > you can buy. Canon makes some very nice "L" series lenses that are of
    > very good quality, and Canon's pride in these lenses is evident in
    > their prices.
    >
    > But I would caution you; since your knowledge of DSLRs doesn't seem to
    > extend beyond setting the camera to full auto mode and not
    > understanding why the camera does what it does, it might be better to
    > stick with the XTi to gain some basic understanding of the interaction
    > between the shutter speed, aperture and ISO settings, and how you can
    > manipulate them to get what you want, before you buy a 5D. (If you
    > don't know how to drive, buying a $100,000 car makes little sense.)


    I work for a well-known maker of $100k+ cars, and I can assure you
    that, if we sold them only to people who knew how to drive them, we
    would have gone out of business years ago ;-)
     
    Geoffrey, Nov 12, 2006
    #50
  11. Bill Funk Guest

    On 12 Nov 2006 11:53:37 -0800, "Geoffrey" <>
    wrote:

    >
    >Bill Funk wrote:
    >> On 4 Nov 2006 05:13:32 -0800, wrote:
    >>
    >> >I still have time to cancel out the Rebel XTi 400D order. What is the
    >> >cheapest full frame sensor camera, and does it obviate the need to
    >> >purchase additional lenses in order to be worth the money?

    >>
    >> As others have pointed out, the Canon is the cheapest full-frame DSLR
    >> being marketed now.
    >>
    >> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5d/
    >>
    >> Does it obviate the need to purchase additional lenses in order to be
    >> worth the money? Depends. What lenses do you have now? How good do you
    >> want your pics to be? The 5D will take advantage of the best lenses
    >> you can buy. Canon makes some very nice "L" series lenses that are of
    >> very good quality, and Canon's pride in these lenses is evident in
    >> their prices.
    >>
    >> But I would caution you; since your knowledge of DSLRs doesn't seem to
    >> extend beyond setting the camera to full auto mode and not
    >> understanding why the camera does what it does, it might be better to
    >> stick with the XTi to gain some basic understanding of the interaction
    >> between the shutter speed, aperture and ISO settings, and how you can
    >> manipulate them to get what you want, before you buy a 5D. (If you
    >> don't know how to drive, buying a $100,000 car makes little sense.)

    >
    >I work for a well-known maker of $100k+ cars, and I can assure you
    >that, if we sold them only to people who knew how to drive them, we
    >would have gone out of business years ago ;-)


    The fact that such people buy them doesn't mean it makes sense. :)
    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Nov 12, 2006
    #51
  12. In article <>, Bill Funk
    <> writes
    >On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 03:29:11 +0000, Kennedy McEwen
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>In article <>, Bill Funk
    >><> writes
    >>
    >>>Would the mount be extended,
    >>>making other lenses unable to focus to infinity?

    >>
    >>No.
    >>
    >>Ever seen the Nikormat or Olympus OM cameras with shutter dials on the
    >>lens mount? No problem with focus of any lenses. Same position could
    >>easily be used for an aperture (or even a shutter speed) control on a
    >>DSLR today.

    >
    >I never used those cameras.
    >But, putting the aperture ring on a mount will extend the mount,
    >moving the lens out, affecting its ability to focus.
    >Not talking about old cameras here, but new ones.


    There is no need to extend the lens mount out at all - the ring, if that
    is what was required, could easily be integrated into the body. Just as
    it was with the old Nikormats and Olympus cameras. The flange to focal
    plane distance still remains the same.

    For example, the Nikormats used standard Nikon lenses with the same
    flange distance from the focal plane as any Nikon camera and no focus
    problems. Similarly, the lower prices double digit Olympus OM cameras
    which didn't have a shutter speed ring around the lens mount were
    compatible with the single digit OM cameras which did have the ring.

    You are assuming that the ring is added onto the existing camera body
    design, rather than integrated with it - behind the flange.
    --
    Kennedy
    Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
    A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
    Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
     
    Kennedy McEwen, Nov 13, 2006
    #52
  13. Geoffrey Guest

    Bill Funk wrote:
    > On 12 Nov 2006 11:53:37 -0800, "Geoffrey" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >Bill Funk wrote:
    > >> On 4 Nov 2006 05:13:32 -0800, wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >I still have time to cancel out the Rebel XTi 400D order. What is the
    > >> >cheapest full frame sensor camera, and does it obviate the need to
    > >> >purchase additional lenses in order to be worth the money?
    > >>
    > >> As others have pointed out, the Canon is the cheapest full-frame DSLR
    > >> being marketed now.
    > >>
    > >> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5d/
    > >>
    > >> Does it obviate the need to purchase additional lenses in order to be
    > >> worth the money? Depends. What lenses do you have now? How good do you
    > >> want your pics to be? The 5D will take advantage of the best lenses
    > >> you can buy. Canon makes some very nice "L" series lenses that are of
    > >> very good quality, and Canon's pride in these lenses is evident in
    > >> their prices.
    > >>
    > >> But I would caution you; since your knowledge of DSLRs doesn't seem to
    > >> extend beyond setting the camera to full auto mode and not
    > >> understanding why the camera does what it does, it might be better to
    > >> stick with the XTi to gain some basic understanding of the interaction
    > >> between the shutter speed, aperture and ISO settings, and how you can
    > >> manipulate them to get what you want, before you buy a 5D. (If you
    > >> don't know how to drive, buying a $100,000 car makes little sense.)

    > >
    > >I work for a well-known maker of $100k+ cars, and I can assure you
    > >that, if we sold them only to people who knew how to drive them, we
    > >would have gone out of business years ago ;-)

    >
    > The fact that such people buy them doesn't mean it makes sense. :)
    > --
    > Bill Funk
    > replace "g" with "a"


    A question: I have a 350D with three lenses: 18-55 plastic kit, 60 EFS
    f2.8 macro and 70-200 f2.8L IS USM. So quite a spread in terms of
    presumed quality. When I shoot a variety of test targets in high
    quality JPEG mode the results from all three are practically identical,
    and seem related, above all else, to the way in which the data from the
    sensor are extracted. With DPP I can't do better with RAW (I'm sure
    others could). The results also, broadly speaking, agree with
    dpreview.com's shots in their 350D full review.

    The expensive tele zoom gives identical results at all focal lengths
    and apertures I've tried (up to f11), a promising result, but it does
    seem slightly less contrasty than the others. (The "collateral damage"
    caused by a transition from black to white spreads, as usual, to 3-4
    pixels, but, as evidenced by a shot including, for instance, a hair, or
    a thin branch, where the dark feature in question is only a single
    pixel wide, the "black" appears to be more compromised by the adjacent,
    light, background colours and fades toward them.)

    Should I expect more from this device attached to a 350D, or is the
    lens too good for the body?

    All the best,
    Geoff
     
    Geoffrey, Nov 13, 2006
    #53
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