Certification Craze

Discussion in 'Microsoft Certification' started by JimBob, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. JimBob

    JimBob Guest

    I've been reading a large number of IT certification postings where
    individuals appear to be looking for a quick fix to become certified. A
    quick fix for study material, not necessarily taking the time to actually
    learn the material, just memorize it, just to pass a certification test.

    Learning enough just to pass a certification test appears to be what a lot
    of people are doing these days. In addition, people want pay increases and
    promotion simply because they obtained a certification. More often than not,
    it appears a certification on a resume is more important than a person's
    actual work experience. An instructor of an IT training facility, once told
    me that it's not an individuals experience that's important, it's whether
    that individual holds a valid industry recognized certification that counts!
    Whether that's the truth or not, I'm not sure.

    I wonder, are these true statements? Are individuals hired into or promoted
    into positions simply because they have an industry certification? Is it
    true that experience is not as important as a certification is when
    individuals apply for positions within the IT world? I would think
    employers would consider experience and compare it with the certification,
    i.e. does the experience support the certification type of approach.

    Michael
    JimBob, Sep 15, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. You're preaching to the choir my friend.

    I'm sure it's true to some extent. I always believed certification helps
    get your resume out of the "toss" pile and maybe and interview, especially
    at small organizations. If someone has thirty different certifications
    listed with only two years experience, I'd question that.

    "JimBob" <> wrote in message
    news:5a4c4$4329ad92$438d48ea$...
    > I've been reading a large number of IT certification postings where
    > individuals appear to be looking for a quick fix to become certified. A
    > quick fix for study material, not necessarily taking the time to actually
    > learn the material, just memorize it, just to pass a certification test.
    >
    > Learning enough just to pass a certification test appears to be what a lot
    > of people are doing these days. In addition, people want pay increases

    and
    > promotion simply because they obtained a certification. More often than

    not,
    > it appears a certification on a resume is more important than a person's
    > actual work experience. An instructor of an IT training facility, once

    told
    > me that it's not an individuals experience that's important, it's whether
    > that individual holds a valid industry recognized certification that

    counts!
    > Whether that's the truth or not, I'm not sure.
    >
    > I wonder, are these true statements? Are individuals hired into or

    promoted
    > into positions simply because they have an industry certification? Is it
    > true that experience is not as important as a certification is when
    > individuals apply for positions within the IT world? I would think
    > employers would consider experience and compare it with the certification,
    > i.e. does the experience support the certification type of approach.
    >
    > Michael
    >
    >
    Bill McPherson, Sep 15, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. JimBob

    Blackmetal Guest

    In my opinion, experience is the best way to probe that your certifications
    has value.

    The bad thing of all of this, is that always the reference is against
    certified people. Yes, is true that not everyone that is certified has the
    experience and background to support the paper, but what happens with the
    people who graduate from college/university and doesn't have experience
    also?

    Is the same thing, because nobody who claims to be a BS in Computer Science
    can say that he's a geek just because he/she graduated.

    I believe that the worth of your titles/certifications/degrees are really
    valuable assets only if you have how to probe.

    If I go to an interview showing my certifications, the prospective employer
    could ask about prior projects I've developed and I have gone through a
    couple of times.
    I'm a software developer (web and windows) and in both cases, I have had to
    show the urls or projects samples to my prospective employer, wich it means
    I could probe what the paper said.

    One last cent: not just the certified people may be inexperienced and
    guilty, but the graduates from colleges/universities also.


    "JimBob" <> wrote in message
    news:5a4c4$4329ad92$438d48ea$...
    > I've been reading a large number of IT certification postings where
    > individuals appear to be looking for a quick fix to become certified. A
    > quick fix for study material, not necessarily taking the time to actually
    > learn the material, just memorize it, just to pass a certification test.
    >
    > Learning enough just to pass a certification test appears to be what a lot
    > of people are doing these days. In addition, people want pay increases
    > and
    > promotion simply because they obtained a certification. More often than
    > not,
    > it appears a certification on a resume is more important than a person's
    > actual work experience. An instructor of an IT training facility, once
    > told
    > me that it's not an individuals experience that's important, it's whether
    > that individual holds a valid industry recognized certification that
    > counts!
    > Whether that's the truth or not, I'm not sure.
    >
    > I wonder, are these true statements? Are individuals hired into or
    > promoted
    > into positions simply because they have an industry certification? Is it
    > true that experience is not as important as a certification is when
    > individuals apply for positions within the IT world? I would think
    > employers would consider experience and compare it with the certification,
    > i.e. does the experience support the certification type of approach.
    >
    > Michael
    >
    >
    Blackmetal, Sep 15, 2005
    #3
  4. JimBob

    Guest

    There is no way to replace experience but certifications have their
    place too. The problem is we have way to many people and sites posting
    braindumps and people looking for a quick fix. All this does is erode
    the meaning of the certification process.

    Certifications show that one has a baseline level of knowledge and was
    able to demonstrate that knowledge by passing an exam. Does that make
    the person a seasoned developer? No - but it does show you have some
    knowledge of the subject matter. Usually more breadth than depth. Is
    this a bad thing? No. It is the responsibility of the hiring person
    to probe and determine how in-depth a person's skill is. If they are
    making hiring decisions solely on letters on a resume, then shame on
    them.

    I am in the process of starting a company to deliver MCAD and MCSD boot
    camps. My goal is to have people learn & write code & pass the exams
    in a short duration of time (but lot's of effort). I plan on using new
    teaching techniques to help people learn, retain and apply their new
    found knowledge. Our current accepted methods of teaching are totally
    against how the brain is wired to learn. More on that in another post.

    I studied for and passed the requirements for MCAD - but it took
    several months. Only because I did not spend a concentrated amount of
    time. With 1 or 2 hours here or there studying makes for a long
    duration. Now, if all that studying is concentrated, you could gain a
    lot of knowledge in a short time frame.


    Regards,

    Vic

    www.matrixlearningsolutions.com
    http://matrixlearning.blogspot.com
    , Sep 16, 2005
    #4
  5. JimBob

    JimBob Guest

    To Bill, Blackmetal and Victor, thank you for your responses. They were
    most welcomed.

    I have attended boot camps, obtained my Cisco certification and currently
    scheduled to attend an MCSA certification school, yet it appears numerous
    boot camp training facilities are more interested in the amount of passing
    students than in actually teaching students.

    I have considered starting a training facility in the IT field. My initial
    idea is to lengthen the classes from the normal 5, 7, 9 and 15 days to a
    much more relaxed and thorough training period. Some initial time periods
    are listed below, not set in stone and most likely will need refinement.

    CCNA -- 3 1/2 weeks
    A+ -- 3 weeks
    Network+ -- 3 weeks
    MCSA/MCSE -- 1 to 1 1/2 month(s)

    I believe there is a need to change the certification training process, not
    the certification itself. Increasing the training period, as outlined
    above, for example, will have a great impact on knowledge retention and a
    vast improvement in job performance! This can be proven and when employers
    view an individuals resume, especially when that student came from a
    training facility such as I have discribed, that employer will know the
    individual/employee is well trained, not force fed information under great
    pressure, just to pass and hold a certification!



    Regards,

    Michael


    As Victor stated and in my opinion, craming information down students
    throats at a rapid pace, to me, doe not give that student the opportunity to
    retain the information for any length of time. Take, for example, a student
    who passes his/her CCNA, A+, Network+ or MCSA/MCSE exam. How much of that
    information, after passing the exam, does that student actually retain? In
    my opinion, somewhere in the range of 30 to 45% possibly 65% at most. What
    I propose is to lengthen the time of each class in order that the student
    actually retains the information, knows what he and/or she is talking about
    and can perform much better at his/her job when hired or promoted.

    I feel the less pressure placed upon a student the more that student is
    going to retain. The more that student retains, the more productive, in the
    work place or applying for a position, that student will be.



    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > There is no way to replace experience but certifications have their
    > place too. The problem is we have way to many people and sites posting
    > braindumps and people looking for a quick fix. All this does is erode
    > the meaning of the certification process.
    >
    > Certifications show that one has a baseline level of knowledge and was
    > able to demonstrate that knowledge by passing an exam. Does that make
    > the person a seasoned developer? No - but it does show you have some
    > knowledge of the subject matter. Usually more breadth than depth. Is
    > this a bad thing? No. It is the responsibility of the hiring person
    > to probe and determine how in-depth a person's skill is. If they are
    > making hiring decisions solely on letters on a resume, then shame on
    > them.
    >
    > I am in the process of starting a company to deliver MCAD and MCSD boot
    > camps. My goal is to have people learn & write code & pass the exams
    > in a short duration of time (but lot's of effort). I plan on using new
    > teaching techniques to help people learn, retain and apply their new
    > found knowledge. Our current accepted methods of teaching are totally
    > against how the brain is wired to learn. More on that in another post.
    >
    > I studied for and passed the requirements for MCAD - but it took
    > several months. Only because I did not spend a concentrated amount of
    > time. With 1 or 2 hours here or there studying makes for a long
    > duration. Now, if all that studying is concentrated, you could gain a
    > lot of knowledge in a short time frame.
    >
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Vic
    >
    > www.matrixlearningsolutions.com
    > http://matrixlearning.blogspot.com
    >
    JimBob, Sep 16, 2005
    #5
  6. JimBob

    Paul Robson Guest

    JimBob wrote:
    > To Bill, Blackmetal and Victor, thank you for your responses. They were
    > most welcomed.
    >
    > I have attended boot camps, obtained my Cisco certification and currently
    > scheduled to attend an MCSA certification school, yet it appears numerous
    > boot camp training facilities are more interested in the amount of passing
    > students than in actually teaching students.


    Well .... that's what they are supposed to do. They don't claim to teach
    you "experience" in say coding, they say they will get you through the
    exam. That's why people pay them.

    > I have considered starting a training facility in the IT field. My initial
    > idea is to lengthen the classes from the normal 5, 7, 9 and 15 days to a
    > much more relaxed and thorough training period. Some initial time periods
    > are listed below, not set in stone and most likely will need refinement.
    >
    > CCNA -- 3 1/2 weeks
    > A+ -- 3 weeks
    > Network+ -- 3 weeks
    > MCSA/MCSE -- 1 to 1 1/2 month(s)
    >


    There's an Indian one (Koenig) that has these sort of timescales. The
    problem is that (i) the person has to have that amount of time off - for
    say MCSE or MCAD that's going to be significant and (ii) you have to pay
    trainers, residential costs etc. for an extended period of time.

    > I believe there is a need to change the certification training process, not
    > the certification itself. Increasing the training period, as outlined
    > above, for example, will have a great impact on knowledge retention and a
    > vast improvement in job performance!
    > This can be proven and when employers
    > view an individuals resume, especially when that student came from a
    > training facility such as I have discribed, that employer will know the
    > individual/employee is well trained, not force fed information under great
    > pressure, just to pass and hold a certification!
    >


    I don't think it's a problem ; the cert. may get you the interview, but
    no further.
    Paul Robson, Sep 16, 2005
    #6
  7. JimBob

    Geez31 Guest

    Boot camps are designed for people that are already in the field and have
    experience with that product. In most cases they are taking the class to get
    the benefits of having the certification.


    "JimBob" <> wrote in message
    news:2ada2$432ae95a$a2288c66$...
    > To Bill, Blackmetal and Victor, thank you for your responses. They were
    > most welcomed.
    >
    > I have attended boot camps, obtained my Cisco certification and currently
    > scheduled to attend an MCSA certification school, yet it appears numerous
    > boot camp training facilities are more interested in the amount of passing
    > students than in actually teaching students.
    >
    > I have considered starting a training facility in the IT field. My
    > initial
    > idea is to lengthen the classes from the normal 5, 7, 9 and 15 days to a
    > much more relaxed and thorough training period. Some initial time periods
    > are listed below, not set in stone and most likely will need refinement.
    >
    > CCNA -- 3 1/2 weeks
    > A+ -- 3 weeks
    > Network+ -- 3 weeks
    > MCSA/MCSE -- 1 to 1 1/2 month(s)
    >
    > I believe there is a need to change the certification training process,
    > not
    > the certification itself. Increasing the training period, as outlined
    > above, for example, will have a great impact on knowledge retention and a
    > vast improvement in job performance! This can be proven and when employers
    > view an individuals resume, especially when that student came from a
    > training facility such as I have discribed, that employer will know the
    > individual/employee is well trained, not force fed information under great
    > pressure, just to pass and hold a certification!
    >
    >
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Michael
    >
    >
    > As Victor stated and in my opinion, craming information down students
    > throats at a rapid pace, to me, doe not give that student the opportunity
    > to
    > retain the information for any length of time. Take, for example, a
    > student
    > who passes his/her CCNA, A+, Network+ or MCSA/MCSE exam. How much of that
    > information, after passing the exam, does that student actually retain?
    > In
    > my opinion, somewhere in the range of 30 to 45% possibly 65% at most.
    > What
    > I propose is to lengthen the time of each class in order that the student
    > actually retains the information, knows what he and/or she is talking
    > about
    > and can perform much better at his/her job when hired or promoted.
    >
    > I feel the less pressure placed upon a student the more that student is
    > going to retain. The more that student retains, the more productive, in
    > the
    > work place or applying for a position, that student will be.
    >
    >
    >
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> There is no way to replace experience but certifications have their
    >> place too. The problem is we have way to many people and sites posting
    >> braindumps and people looking for a quick fix. All this does is erode
    >> the meaning of the certification process.
    >>
    >> Certifications show that one has a baseline level of knowledge and was
    >> able to demonstrate that knowledge by passing an exam. Does that make
    >> the person a seasoned developer? No - but it does show you have some
    >> knowledge of the subject matter. Usually more breadth than depth. Is
    >> this a bad thing? No. It is the responsibility of the hiring person
    >> to probe and determine how in-depth a person's skill is. If they are
    >> making hiring decisions solely on letters on a resume, then shame on
    >> them.
    >>
    >> I am in the process of starting a company to deliver MCAD and MCSD boot
    >> camps. My goal is to have people learn & write code & pass the exams
    >> in a short duration of time (but lot's of effort). I plan on using new
    >> teaching techniques to help people learn, retain and apply their new
    >> found knowledge. Our current accepted methods of teaching are totally
    >> against how the brain is wired to learn. More on that in another post.
    >>
    >> I studied for and passed the requirements for MCAD - but it took
    >> several months. Only because I did not spend a concentrated amount of
    >> time. With 1 or 2 hours here or there studying makes for a long
    >> duration. Now, if all that studying is concentrated, you could gain a
    >> lot of knowledge in a short time frame.
    >>
    >>
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Vic
    >>
    >> www.matrixlearningsolutions.com
    >> http://matrixlearning.blogspot.com
    >>

    >
    >
    Geez31, Sep 16, 2005
    #7
  8. JimBob

    ZombyWoof Guest

    On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:21:48 -0500, "JimBob" <>
    wrote:

    >I've been reading a large number of IT certification postings where
    >individuals appear to be looking for a quick fix to become certified. A
    >quick fix for study material, not necessarily taking the time to actually
    >learn the material, just memorize it, just to pass a certification test.
    >
    >Learning enough just to pass a certification test appears to be what a lot
    >of people are doing these days. In addition, people want pay increases and
    >promotion simply because they obtained a certification. More often than not,
    >it appears a certification on a resume is more important than a person's
    >actual work experience. An instructor of an IT training facility, once told
    >me that it's not an individuals experience that's important, it's whether
    >that individual holds a valid industry recognized certification that counts!
    >Whether that's the truth or not, I'm not sure.
    >
    >I wonder, are these true statements? Are individuals hired into or promoted
    >into positions simply because they have an industry certification? Is it
    >true that experience is not as important as a certification is when
    >individuals apply for positions within the IT world? I would think
    >employers would consider experience and compare it with the certification,
    >i.e. does the experience support the certification type of approach.
    >
    >Michael
    >

    As an individual with 30+ years in the trenches and currently serving
    as a CIO without certification one I would say no. Not a single
    member of my staff got their job because they had a certification.
    They all got them because they can do the jobs they are assigned.

    I can within minutes during an interview if a person can do or simply
    holds a certification. Given a person with one years verifiable work
    experience and a person with a certification, the person with the work
    experience will usually get the job hands down.

    Easiest way to get the job experience? Joined the Armed Forces and
    select a job in the IT career field. Four years later and not one
    stinking exam and your worth 60k a year to me.
    ZombyWoof, Sep 19, 2005
    #8
  9. JimBob

    ZombyWoof Guest

    On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:06:34 -0500, "Blackmetal"
    <> wrote:

    >In my opinion, experience is the best way to probe that your certifications
    >has value.
    >
    >The bad thing of all of this, is that always the reference is against
    >certified people. Yes, is true that not everyone that is certified has the
    >experience and background to support the paper, but what happens with the
    >people who graduate from college/university and doesn't have experience
    >also?
    >
    >Is the same thing, because nobody who claims to be a BS in Computer Science
    >can say that he's a geek just because he/she graduated.
    >
    >I believe that the worth of your titles/certifications/degrees are really
    >valuable assets only if you have how to probe.
    >
    >If I go to an interview showing my certifications, the prospective employer
    >could ask about prior projects I've developed and I have gone through a
    >couple of times.
    >I'm a software developer (web and windows) and in both cases, I have had to
    >show the urls or projects samples to my prospective employer, wich it means
    >I could probe what the paper said.
    >
    >One last cent: not just the certified people may be inexperienced and
    >guilty, but the graduates from colleges/universities also.
    >

    Well as one who has been involved in hiring decisions within IT for
    quite some time now I'll take a trainable college graduate who has
    more exposure to subjects then just IT over any one with a
    Certification. It is college or substitutable work experience I
    require for my positions. I am usually quite dismayed at the quality
    of certification holders and have started discarding their resumes out
    of hand.
    >
    >"JimBob" <> wrote in message
    >news:5a4c4$4329ad92$438d48ea$...
    >> I've been reading a large number of IT certification postings where
    >> individuals appear to be looking for a quick fix to become certified. A
    >> quick fix for study material, not necessarily taking the time to actually
    >> learn the material, just memorize it, just to pass a certification test.
    >>
    >> Learning enough just to pass a certification test appears to be what a lot
    >> of people are doing these days. In addition, people want pay increases
    >> and
    >> promotion simply because they obtained a certification. More often than
    >> not,
    >> it appears a certification on a resume is more important than a person's
    >> actual work experience. An instructor of an IT training facility, once
    >> told
    >> me that it's not an individuals experience that's important, it's whether
    >> that individual holds a valid industry recognized certification that
    >> counts!
    >> Whether that's the truth or not, I'm not sure.
    >>
    >> I wonder, are these true statements? Are individuals hired into or
    >> promoted
    >> into positions simply because they have an industry certification? Is it
    >> true that experience is not as important as a certification is when
    >> individuals apply for positions within the IT world? I would think
    >> employers would consider experience and compare it with the certification,
    >> i.e. does the experience support the certification type of approach.
    >>
    >> Michael
    >>
    >>

    >
    ZombyWoof, Sep 19, 2005
    #9
  10. JimBob

    ZombyWoof Guest

    On 16 Sep 2005 05:37:30 -0700,
    wrote:

    >There is no way to replace experience but certifications have their
    >place too. The problem is we have way to many people and sites posting
    >braindumps and people looking for a quick fix. All this does is erode
    >the meaning of the certification process.
    >
    >Certifications show that one has a baseline level of knowledge and was
    >able to demonstrate that knowledge by passing an exam. Does that make
    >the person a seasoned developer? No - but it does show you have some
    >knowledge of the subject matter. Usually more breadth than depth. Is
    >this a bad thing? No. It is the responsibility of the hiring person
    >to probe and determine how in-depth a person's skill is. If they are
    >making hiring decisions solely on letters on a resume, then shame on
    >them.
    >
    >I am in the process of starting a company to deliver MCAD and MCSD boot
    >camps. My goal is to have people learn & write code & pass the exams
    >in a short duration of time (but lot's of effort). I plan on using new
    >teaching techniques to help people learn, retain and apply their new
    >found knowledge. Our current accepted methods of teaching are totally
    >against how the brain is wired to learn. More on that in another post.
    >
    >I studied for and passed the requirements for MCAD - but it took
    >several months. Only because I did not spend a concentrated amount of
    >time. With 1 or 2 hours here or there studying makes for a long
    >duration. Now, if all that studying is concentrated, you could gain a
    >lot of knowledge in a short time frame.
    >
    >
    >Regards,
    >
    >Vic
    >

    Good luck with your company, but I would never hire one of your
    graduates simply because they passed an exam. Never.
    ZombyWoof, Sep 19, 2005
    #10
  11. JimBob

    ZombyWoof Guest

    On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:49:03 -0500, "JimBob" <>
    wrote:

    >To Bill, Blackmetal and Victor, thank you for your responses. They were
    >most welcomed.
    >
    >I have attended boot camps, obtained my Cisco certification and currently
    >scheduled to attend an MCSA certification school, yet it appears numerous
    >boot camp training facilities are more interested in the amount of passing
    >students than in actually teaching students.
    >
    >I have considered starting a training facility in the IT field. My initial
    >idea is to lengthen the classes from the normal 5, 7, 9 and 15 days to a
    >much more relaxed and thorough training period. Some initial time periods
    >are listed below, not set in stone and most likely will need refinement.
    >
    >CCNA -- 3 1/2 weeks
    > A+ -- 3 weeks
    >Network+ -- 3 weeks
    >MCSA/MCSE -- 1 to 1 1/2 month(s)
    >
    >I believe there is a need to change the certification training process, not
    >the certification itself. Increasing the training period, as outlined
    >above, for example, will have a great impact on knowledge retention and a
    >vast improvement in job performance! This can be proven and when employers
    >view an individuals resume, especially when that student came from a
    >training facility such as I have discribed, that employer will know the
    >individual/employee is well trained, not force fed information under great
    >pressure, just to pass and hold a certification!
    >

    Lengthen the time even more, throw in some communications skills
    training, and develop some industry partnerships for real world
    internships and practical knowledge and you just might be on to
    something.
    ZombyWoof, Sep 19, 2005
    #11
  12. JimBob

    ZombyWoof Guest

    On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 19:08:04 +0100, Paul Robson
    <> wrote:

    >JimBob wrote:
    >> To Bill, Blackmetal and Victor, thank you for your responses. They were
    >> most welcomed.
    >>
    >> I have attended boot camps, obtained my Cisco certification and currently
    >> scheduled to attend an MCSA certification school, yet it appears numerous
    >> boot camp training facilities are more interested in the amount of passing
    >> students than in actually teaching students.

    >
    >Well .... that's what they are supposed to do. They don't claim to teach
    >you "experience" in say coding, they say they will get you through the
    >exam. That's why people pay them.
    >
    >> I have considered starting a training facility in the IT field. My initial
    >> idea is to lengthen the classes from the normal 5, 7, 9 and 15 days to a
    >> much more relaxed and thorough training period. Some initial time periods
    >> are listed below, not set in stone and most likely will need refinement.
    >>
    >> CCNA -- 3 1/2 weeks
    >> A+ -- 3 weeks
    >> Network+ -- 3 weeks
    >> MCSA/MCSE -- 1 to 1 1/2 month(s)
    >>

    >
    >There's an Indian one (Koenig) that has these sort of timescales. The
    >problem is that (i) the person has to have that amount of time off - for
    >say MCSE or MCAD that's going to be significant and (ii) you have to pay
    >trainers, residential costs etc. for an extended period of time.
    >
    >> I believe there is a need to change the certification training process, not
    >> the certification itself. Increasing the training period, as outlined
    >> above, for example, will have a great impact on knowledge retention and a
    >> vast improvement in job performance!
    >> This can be proven and when employers
    >> view an individuals resume, especially when that student came from a
    >> training facility such as I have discribed, that employer will know the
    >> individual/employee is well trained, not force fed information under great
    >> pressure, just to pass and hold a certification!
    >>

    >
    >I don't think it's a problem ; the cert. may get you the interview, but
    >no further.
    >

    Actually as of late I've been dumping the Certifications Resumes into
    the no sort bin as they come in. The lack of quality in not just the
    IT skill set, but the communications skills and lack of common
    business language knowledge is amazingly apparent on all that I have
    interviewed. I'd rather OJT a recent college graduate or give me
    someone out of the Armed Forces with four years of practical daily
    hands-on experience.
    ZombyWoof, Sep 19, 2005
    #12
  13. JimBob

    ZombyWoof Guest

    On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:28:54 -0400, "Geez31" <> wrote:

    >Boot camps are designed for people that are already in the field and have
    >experience with that product. In most cases they are taking the class to get
    >the benefits of having the certification.
    >

    And what would those benefits be?
    >
    >"JimBob" <> wrote in message
    >news:2ada2$432ae95a$a2288c66$...
    >> To Bill, Blackmetal and Victor, thank you for your responses. They were
    >> most welcomed.
    >>
    >> I have attended boot camps, obtained my Cisco certification and currently
    >> scheduled to attend an MCSA certification school, yet it appears numerous
    >> boot camp training facilities are more interested in the amount of passing
    >> students than in actually teaching students.
    >>
    >> I have considered starting a training facility in the IT field. My
    >> initial
    >> idea is to lengthen the classes from the normal 5, 7, 9 and 15 days to a
    >> much more relaxed and thorough training period. Some initial time periods
    >> are listed below, not set in stone and most likely will need refinement.
    >>
    >> CCNA -- 3 1/2 weeks
    >> A+ -- 3 weeks
    >> Network+ -- 3 weeks
    >> MCSA/MCSE -- 1 to 1 1/2 month(s)
    >>
    >> I believe there is a need to change the certification training process,
    >> not
    >> the certification itself. Increasing the training period, as outlined
    >> above, for example, will have a great impact on knowledge retention and a
    >> vast improvement in job performance! This can be proven and when employers
    >> view an individuals resume, especially when that student came from a
    >> training facility such as I have discribed, that employer will know the
    >> individual/employee is well trained, not force fed information under great
    >> pressure, just to pass and hold a certification!
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Michael
    >>
    >>
    >> As Victor stated and in my opinion, craming information down students
    >> throats at a rapid pace, to me, doe not give that student the opportunity
    >> to
    >> retain the information for any length of time. Take, for example, a
    >> student
    >> who passes his/her CCNA, A+, Network+ or MCSA/MCSE exam. How much of that
    >> information, after passing the exam, does that student actually retain?
    >> In
    >> my opinion, somewhere in the range of 30 to 45% possibly 65% at most.
    >> What
    >> I propose is to lengthen the time of each class in order that the student
    >> actually retains the information, knows what he and/or she is talking
    >> about
    >> and can perform much better at his/her job when hired or promoted.
    >>
    >> I feel the less pressure placed upon a student the more that student is
    >> going to retain. The more that student retains, the more productive, in
    >> the
    >> work place or applying for a position, that student will be.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> There is no way to replace experience but certifications have their
    >>> place too. The problem is we have way to many people and sites posting
    >>> braindumps and people looking for a quick fix. All this does is erode
    >>> the meaning of the certification process.
    >>>
    >>> Certifications show that one has a baseline level of knowledge and was
    >>> able to demonstrate that knowledge by passing an exam. Does that make
    >>> the person a seasoned developer? No - but it does show you have some
    >>> knowledge of the subject matter. Usually more breadth than depth. Is
    >>> this a bad thing? No. It is the responsibility of the hiring person
    >>> to probe and determine how in-depth a person's skill is. If they are
    >>> making hiring decisions solely on letters on a resume, then shame on
    >>> them.
    >>>
    >>> I am in the process of starting a company to deliver MCAD and MCSD boot
    >>> camps. My goal is to have people learn & write code & pass the exams
    >>> in a short duration of time (but lot's of effort). I plan on using new
    >>> teaching techniques to help people learn, retain and apply their new
    >>> found knowledge. Our current accepted methods of teaching are totally
    >>> against how the brain is wired to learn. More on that in another post.
    >>>
    >>> I studied for and passed the requirements for MCAD - but it took
    >>> several months. Only because I did not spend a concentrated amount of
    >>> time. With 1 or 2 hours here or there studying makes for a long
    >>> duration. Now, if all that studying is concentrated, you could gain a
    >>> lot of knowledge in a short time frame.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Regards,
    >>>
    >>> Vic
    >>>
    >>> www.matrixlearningsolutions.com
    >>> http://matrixlearning.blogspot.com
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    ZombyWoof, Sep 19, 2005
    #13
  14. JimBob

    De Guest

    ZombyWoof wrote:
    > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:06:34 -0500, "Blackmetal"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >In my opinion, experience is the best way to probe that your certifications
    > >has value.
    > >
    > >The bad thing of all of this, is that always the reference is against
    > >certified people. Yes, is true that not everyone that is certified has the
    > >experience and background to support the paper, but what happens with the
    > >people who graduate from college/university and doesn't have experience
    > >also?
    > >
    > >Is the same thing, because nobody who claims to be a BS in Computer Science
    > >can say that he's a geek just because he/she graduated.
    > >
    > >I believe that the worth of your titles/certifications/degrees are really
    > >valuable assets only if you have how to probe.
    > >
    > >If I go to an interview showing my certifications, the prospective employer
    > >could ask about prior projects I've developed and I have gone through a
    > >couple of times.
    > >I'm a software developer (web and windows) and in both cases, I have had to
    > >show the urls or projects samples to my prospective employer, wich it means
    > >I could probe what the paper said.
    > >
    > >One last cent: not just the certified people may be inexperienced and
    > >guilty, but the graduates from colleges/universities also.
    > >

    > Well as one who has been involved in hiring decisions within IT for
    > quite some time now I'll take a trainable college graduate who has
    > more exposure to subjects then just IT over any one with a
    > Certification. It is college or substitutable work experience I
    > require for my positions. I am usually quite dismayed at the quality
    > of certification holders and have started discarding their resumes out
    > of hand.
    > >
    > >"JimBob" <> wrote in message
    > >news:5a4c4$4329ad92$438d48ea$...
    > >> I've been reading a large number of IT certification postings where
    > >> individuals appear to be looking for a quick fix to become certified. A
    > >> quick fix for study material, not necessarily taking the time to actually
    > >> learn the material, just memorize it, just to pass a certification test.
    > >>
    > >> Learning enough just to pass a certification test appears to be what a lot
    > >> of people are doing these days. In addition, people want pay increases
    > >> and
    > >> promotion simply because they obtained a certification. More often than
    > >> not,
    > >> it appears a certification on a resume is more important than a person's
    > >> actual work experience. An instructor of an IT training facility, once
    > >> told
    > >> me that it's not an individuals experience that's important, it's whether
    > >> that individual holds a valid industry recognized certification that
    > >> counts!
    > >> Whether that's the truth or not, I'm not sure.
    > >>
    > >> I wonder, are these true statements? Are individuals hired into or
    > >> promoted
    > >> into positions simply because they have an industry certification? Is it
    > >> true that experience is not as important as a certification is when
    > >> individuals apply for positions within the IT world? I would think
    > >> employers would consider experience and compare it with the certification,
    > >> i.e. does the experience support the certification type of approach.
    > >>
    > >> Michael
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    De, Sep 20, 2005
    #14
  15. JimBob

    De Guest

    This all sounds very good but upon graduation from college I went cert
    crazy and got cne, A+, MCP etc. When I finally got the interview I
    wasn't even asked about the certs I worked so hard to attain. With 2
    years exp. at that company I moved on to a major computer company with
    the hopes of gaining what I was told would be more valuable to me,
    EXPERIENCE. Great I'm on my way so I thought. Five years later I have
    much more experience (server/o/s) and exposure to what I was after in
    the first place (Cisco switching/router exp) but was downsized. So here
    I am again submitting my resume looking for a networking job but I
    don't have my CCNA and cannot even get a callback (For the record,
    NONE of the guys/gals working in the network or firewall groups at my
    last company were certified in ANYTHING). I love computers but this
    industry is ridiculous because no one seems to know what to do to
    become successful. Contrast this with my girlfriend who as a pharmacy
    technician and does her job search in between episodes of sex in the
    city and gets more offers than she cares for.
    De, Sep 20, 2005
    #15
  16. JimBob

    Michael Guest

    !Re: Certification Craze

    ZombyWoof,

    As you stated:

    > I am usually quite dismayed at the quality of certification holders and

    have started
    >discarding their resumes out of hand.


    and that is exactly my point! The amount of resumes you are seeing are only
    the "tip of the
    iceberg". There are thousands upon thousands of individuals who are exactly
    as you say,
    have poor quality/knowledge yet they hold those valued "MCSE", "CCNA", "MCP"
    and
    other certifications! Why is that? From my experience both in the IT field
    which I have 15
    years as a civilian and 22 years as a military person, it's the quality and
    amount of training
    they receive along with experience! There are many people who are "Test
    takers",
    individuals who can memorize information and pass a test but when tasked to
    perform
    on the job, they fail miserably! Many students forget what they learned in
    boot camp
    or when confronted with "Real World" situations they forget what to do!

    A case in point happened to me the other day. I was out shopping for a SCSI
    card at
    CompUSA. An employee in the store came up to me and asked if he could help
    me. I
    asked him for a PCI SCSI card. His responses were as follows:

    1. Deer in the headlights look
    2. I've never heard of SCSI, I don't know what that is.

    I'm seriously considered starting a training facility that is built on
    quality and quantity style of
    training instead of force feeding individuals information just to PASS A
    TEST! My vision is
    "When the student completes the course, A+, Network+, CCNA, etc. then takes
    the test
    they will not only pass the test with a very high score, they will know what
    they are talking
    about and can prove their knowledge along with their ability to perform on
    the job!".

    Regards,

    Michael



    "ZombyWoof" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:06:34 -0500, "Blackmetal"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >In my opinion, experience is the best way to probe that your

    certifications
    > >has value.
    > >
    > >The bad thing of all of this, is that always the reference is against
    > >certified people. Yes, is true that not everyone that is certified has

    the
    > >experience and background to support the paper, but what happens with the
    > >people who graduate from college/university and doesn't have experience
    > >also?
    > >
    > >Is the same thing, because nobody who claims to be a BS in Computer

    Science
    > >can say that he's a geek just because he/she graduated.
    > >
    > >I believe that the worth of your titles/certifications/degrees are really
    > >valuable assets only if you have how to probe.
    > >
    > >If I go to an interview showing my certifications, the prospective

    employer
    > >could ask about prior projects I've developed and I have gone through a
    > >couple of times.
    > >I'm a software developer (web and windows) and in both cases, I have had

    to
    > >show the urls or projects samples to my prospective employer, wich it

    means
    > >I could probe what the paper said.
    > >
    > >One last cent: not just the certified people may be inexperienced and
    > >guilty, but the graduates from colleges/universities also.
    > >

    > Well as one who has been involved in hiring decisions within IT for
    > quite some time now I'll take a trainable college graduate who has
    > more exposure to subjects then just IT over any one with a
    > Certification. It is college or substitutable work experience I
    > require for my positions. I am usually quite dismayed at the quality
    > of certification holders and have started discarding their resumes out
    > of hand.
    > >
    > >"JimBob" <> wrote in message
    > >news:5a4c4$4329ad92$438d48ea$...
    > >> I've been reading a large number of IT certification postings where
    > >> individuals appear to be looking for a quick fix to become certified. A
    > >> quick fix for study material, not necessarily taking the time to

    actually
    > >> learn the material, just memorize it, just to pass a certification

    test.
    > >>
    > >> Learning enough just to pass a certification test appears to be what a

    lot
    > >> of people are doing these days. In addition, people want pay increases
    > >> and
    > >> promotion simply because they obtained a certification. More often than
    > >> not,
    > >> it appears a certification on a resume is more important than a

    person's
    > >> actual work experience. An instructor of an IT training facility, once
    > >> told
    > >> me that it's not an individuals experience that's important, it's

    whether
    > >> that individual holds a valid industry recognized certification that
    > >> counts!
    > >> Whether that's the truth or not, I'm not sure.
    > >>
    > >> I wonder, are these true statements? Are individuals hired into or
    > >> promoted
    > >> into positions simply because they have an industry certification? Is

    it
    > >> true that experience is not as important as a certification is when
    > >> individuals apply for positions within the IT world? I would think
    > >> employers would consider experience and compare it with the

    certification,
    > >> i.e. does the experience support the certification type of approach.
    > >>
    > >> Michael
    > >>
    > >>

    > >

    >
    Michael, Sep 25, 2005
    #16
  17. JimBob

    ZombyWoof Guest

    Re: !Re: Certification Craze

    On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:07:33 -0500, "Michael" <>
    wrote:

    >ZombyWoof,
    >
    >As you stated:
    >
    >> I am usually quite dismayed at the quality of certification holders and

    >have started
    >>discarding their resumes out of hand.

    >
    >and that is exactly my point! The amount of resumes you are seeing are only
    >the "tip of the
    >iceberg". There are thousands upon thousands of individuals who are exactly
    >as you say,
    >have poor quality/knowledge yet they hold those valued "MCSE", "CCNA", "MCP"
    >and
    >other certifications! Why is that? From my experience both in the IT field
    >which I have 15
    >years as a civilian and 22 years as a military person, it's the quality and
    >amount of training
    >they receive along with experience! There are many people who are "Test
    >takers",
    >individuals who can memorize information and pass a test but when tasked to
    >perform
    >on the job, they fail miserably! Many students forget what they learned in
    >boot camp
    >or when confronted with "Real World" situations they forget what to do!
    >

    Well first you have to understand who it is that is seeing the value
    in these Certifications. It certainly isn't the IT Managers or the IT
    shops themselves. It is the HR departments who see it as the lazy
    mans way of pre-screening employees. I've gone round & round with our
    HR Director on more then one occasion on this.

    I want one of two things. Either a BS degree in CS, CIS, MIS, or
    equivalent experience. Personally I would rather train someone with
    only background knowledge in my way of doing things then breaking
    someone of bad habits.

    Fortunately for me as an IT manager I am in an area of an awful large
    Military presence which constantly feeds the local workforce with
    candidates that have proven that they can do the job and will show up
    to do the job. The majority who have successfully completed at least
    a four-year tour in the Military aren't going to be discipline
    problems either. Perhaps I am just biased, but I think the Military
    provides excellent training in this area. One cannot just card swap
    while on a sub. They learn component level repair & troubleshooting
    skills which are valuable even as a Network Administrator.

    >A case in point happened to me the other day. I was out shopping for a SCSI
    >card at
    >CompUSA. An employee in the store came up to me and asked if he could help
    >me. I
    >asked him for a PCI SCSI card. His responses were as follows:
    >
    >1. Deer in the headlights look
    >2. I've never heard of SCSI, I don't know what that is.
    >
    >I'm seriously considered starting a training facility that is built on
    >quality and quantity style of
    >training instead of force feeding individuals information just to PASS A
    >TEST! My vision is
    >"When the student completes the course, A+, Network+, CCNA, etc. then takes
    >the test
    >they will not only pass the test with a very high score, they will know what
    >they are talking
    >about and can prove their knowledge along with their ability to perform on
    >the job!".
    >

    Again, I personally don't give a rats ass about any Certifications and
    haven't ever since Novell originally pushed the idea and salaries rose
    because of em and the people weren't worth a shit only knowing one
    solution, a Novell solution. At least Microsoft isn't all that bad,
    but hey basic troubleshoot skills are basic troubleshooting skills
    regardless of if it is a car or a PC. Once you learn the terminology
    that is.

    Well nowadays SCSI is about dead so I wouldn't be surprised if some 20
    something working in CompUsa didn't know what you were talking about.
    Hell most of those guys couldn't identified the guts in side the case
    once you pulled the cover off for them anyways, which is one of my
    practical tests for hiring techs.
    ZombyWoof, Sep 26, 2005
    #17
  18. JimBob

    Blackmetal Guest

    mmm...well...do you think that joining the AF is the only way to gain
    experience?

    It means that my 10+ years in IT won't mean nothing just because I didn't
    join the AF?

    C'mon...open your eyes dude and live a real life and by the way, I'm
    certified too, besides my university...just to let know...

    "ZombyWoof" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:21:48 -0500, "JimBob" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>I've been reading a large number of IT certification postings where
    >>individuals appear to be looking for a quick fix to become certified. A
    >>quick fix for study material, not necessarily taking the time to actually
    >>learn the material, just memorize it, just to pass a certification test.
    >>
    >>Learning enough just to pass a certification test appears to be what a lot
    >>of people are doing these days. In addition, people want pay increases
    >>and
    >>promotion simply because they obtained a certification. More often than
    >>not,
    >>it appears a certification on a resume is more important than a person's
    >>actual work experience. An instructor of an IT training facility, once
    >>told
    >>me that it's not an individuals experience that's important, it's whether
    >>that individual holds a valid industry recognized certification that
    >>counts!
    >>Whether that's the truth or not, I'm not sure.
    >>
    >>I wonder, are these true statements? Are individuals hired into or
    >>promoted
    >>into positions simply because they have an industry certification? Is it
    >>true that experience is not as important as a certification is when
    >>individuals apply for positions within the IT world? I would think
    >>employers would consider experience and compare it with the certification,
    >>i.e. does the experience support the certification type of approach.
    >>
    >>Michael
    >>

    > As an individual with 30+ years in the trenches and currently serving
    > as a CIO without certification one I would say no. Not a single
    > member of my staff got their job because they had a certification.
    > They all got them because they can do the jobs they are assigned.
    >
    > I can within minutes during an interview if a person can do or simply
    > holds a certification. Given a person with one years verifiable work
    > experience and a person with a certification, the person with the work
    > experience will usually get the job hands down.
    >
    > Easiest way to get the job experience? Joined the Armed Forces and
    > select a job in the IT career field. Four years later and not one
    > stinking exam and your worth 60k a year to me.
    Blackmetal, Sep 30, 2005
    #18
  19. Blackmetal wrote:
    > mmm...well...do you think that joining the AF is the only way to gain
    > experience?
    >
    > It means that my 10+ years in IT won't mean nothing just because I didn't
    > join the AF?
    >
    > C'mon...open your eyes dude and live a real life and by the way, I'm
    > certified too, besides my university...just to let know...
    >



    >>Easiest way to get the job experience? Joined the Armed Forces and
    >>select a job in the IT career field. Four years later and not one
    >>stinking exam and your worth 60k a year to me.

    >
    >
    >


    You'll note, he said 'Easiest way" not the only way. I don't think he
    intended to step on the toes of people who are in the IT field with the
    comment, but to point out that in a lot of cases it's a Catch 22 in the
    IT Field. In order to get a job, you have to have experience-- but in
    order to get the experience, you have to get a job. The Armed Forces
    doesn't have this Catch 22, so it's the easiest way to get the experience.

    Otherwise, IMHO (from things I've read) it's a matter of starting out as
    a entry-level tech support person, and working your way up the ladder.
    Although, I have to say, I'm not sure if I'd want to give the four years
    of my life to Uncle Sam, just for the IT Experience. But, that's me
    (not counting that at 34, they probably won't want me). I have NOTHING
    against the military, just that I know I wouldn't get in.

    --
    Patrick Dickey <>
    http://www.pats-computer-solutions.com
    Smile.. someone out there cares deeply for you.
    Patrick Dickey, Oct 2, 2005
    #19
  20. JimBob

    Blackmetal Guest

    You're right, that's "another way" to get experience, but this guy it seems
    to be very emphatic in saying that.

    I've worked in software development in three different industries with a
    proben track of projects, and I don't care if this guy thinks that's the way
    it should be.

    That's crap, because I've sweated my ass writing code and databases and
    nobody will come to tell that the AF is the best way

    "Patrick Dickey" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Blackmetal wrote:
    >> mmm...well...do you think that joining the AF is the only way to gain
    >> experience?
    >>
    >> It means that my 10+ years in IT won't mean nothing just because I didn't
    >> join the AF?
    >>
    >> C'mon...open your eyes dude and live a real life and by the way, I'm
    >> certified too, besides my university...just to let know...
    >>

    >
    >
    >>>Easiest way to get the job experience? Joined the Armed Forces and
    >>>select a job in the IT career field. Four years later and not one
    >>>stinking exam and your worth 60k a year to me.

    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    > You'll note, he said 'Easiest way" not the only way. I don't think he
    > intended to step on the toes of people who are in the IT field with the
    > comment, but to point out that in a lot of cases it's a Catch 22 in the
    > IT Field. In order to get a job, you have to have experience-- but in
    > order to get the experience, you have to get a job. The Armed Forces
    > doesn't have this Catch 22, so it's the easiest way to get the experience.
    >
    > Otherwise, IMHO (from things I've read) it's a matter of starting out as
    > a entry-level tech support person, and working your way up the ladder.
    > Although, I have to say, I'm not sure if I'd want to give the four years
    > of my life to Uncle Sam, just for the IT Experience. But, that's me
    > (not counting that at 34, they probably won't want me). I have NOTHING
    > against the military, just that I know I wouldn't get in.
    >
    > --
    > Patrick Dickey <>
    > http://www.pats-computer-solutions.com
    > Smile.. someone out there cares deeply for you.
    Blackmetal, Oct 3, 2005
    #20
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