ceramic lens in digital cameras

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by aniramca@yahoo.com, Jan 28, 2007.

  1. Guest

    Casio introduced a transparent ceramic lens in their Exilim line
    camera, model EX-S100 a few years ago. Has the ceramic lens been used
    in other Casio's digital cameras? What about other digital camera
    manufacturers? Will ceramic lenses eventually compete with glass
    lenses? Will we see Nikkor and Canon lenses made of ceramic in the
    near future? Or, do ceramic lenses only compete in small size lenses
    (small digital cameras like the exilim line) ?
    For those who own the Exilim Ex-S100, what kind of picture quality
    that is obtained from this camera?
    Thanks for info.
     
    , Jan 28, 2007
    #1
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  2. wrote:
    > Casio introduced a transparent ceramic lens in their Exilim line
    > camera, model EX-S100 a few years ago. Has the ceramic lens been used
    > in other Casio's digital cameras? What about other digital camera
    > manufacturers? Will ceramic lenses eventually compete with glass
    > lenses? Will we see Nikkor and Canon lenses made of ceramic in the
    > near future? Or, do ceramic lenses only compete in small size lenses
    > (small digital cameras like the exilim line) ?
    > For those who own the Exilim Ex-S100, what kind of picture quality
    > that is obtained from this camera?
    > Thanks for info.
    >

    I may be misunderstanding something but isn't glass a non-crystalline
    ceramic?

    I suspect that Casio simply thought it worth mentioning that their
    lenses were galss rather than plastic as is commonly found on cheap cameras.
     
    Richard Polhill, Jan 28, 2007
    #2
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  3. Richard Polhill wrote:
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Casio introduced a transparent ceramic lens in their Exilim line
    >> camera, model EX-S100 a few years ago. Has the ceramic lens been used
    >> in other Casio's digital cameras? What about other digital camera
    >> manufacturers? Will ceramic lenses eventually compete with glass
    >> lenses? Will we see Nikkor and Canon lenses made of ceramic in the
    >> near future? Or, do ceramic lenses only compete in small size lenses
    >> (small digital cameras like the exilim line) ?
    >> For those who own the Exilim Ex-S100, what kind of picture quality
    >> that is obtained from this camera?
    >> Thanks for info.
    >>

    > I may be misunderstanding something but isn't glass a non-crystalline
    > ceramic?
    >
    > I suspect that Casio simply thought it worth mentioning that their
    > lenses were galss rather than plastic as is commonly found on cheap
    > cameras.


    Ah I've looked it up: the lenses were made from Lumicera:-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumicera


    Apparently it has a very high refractive index compared to glass.
     
    Richard Polhill, Jan 28, 2007
    #3
  4. wrote:

    > Casio introduced a transparent ceramic lens in their Exilim line
    > camera, model EX-S100 a few years ago. Has the ceramic lens been used
    > in other Casio's digital cameras? What about other digital camera
    > manufacturers? Will ceramic lenses eventually compete with glass
    > lenses? Will we see Nikkor and Canon lenses made of ceramic in the
    > near future? Or, do ceramic lenses only compete in small size lenses
    > (small digital cameras like the exilim line) ?
    > For those who own the Exilim Ex-S100, what kind of picture quality
    > that is obtained from this camera?


    The only place were transparent ceramics is acceptably used in is electric
    cooktops. There's no place for this material in optics.







    Rita
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=, Jan 28, 2007
    #4
  5. Cgiorgio Guest

    "Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:...
    >
    > The only place were transparent ceramics is acceptably used in is electric
    > cooktops. There's no place for this material in optics.
    >
    > Rita


    Thanks for the highly qualified comment. Could you elaborate if I am right
    that calcium fluoride is good for teeth only?

    >
     
    Cgiorgio, Jan 28, 2007
    #5
  6. Just D Guest

    "Cgiorgio" <>

    > "Rita Ä Berkowitz"
    >> The only place were transparent ceramics is acceptably used in is
    >> electric cooktops. There's no place for this material in optics.
    >> Rita


    > Thanks for the highly qualified comment. Could you elaborate if I am right
    > that calcium fluoride is good for teeth only?


    I understand your sarcasm. She should forward this question to the guys
    created Canon GL2 using these lenses :)

    Just D.
     
    Just D, Jan 28, 2007
    #6
  7. ASAAR Guest

    On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 20:08:07 +0100, Cgiorgio wrote:

    >> The only place were transparent ceramics is acceptably used in is electric
    >> cooktops. There's no place for this material in optics.
    >>
    >> Rita

    >
    > Thanks for the highly qualified comment. Could you elaborate if I am right
    > that calcium fluoride is good for teeth only?


    Don't mind Rita. She's known for her many crockpot statements.
     
    ASAAR, Jan 28, 2007
    #7
  8. Phil Wheeler Guest

    Cgiorgio wrote:
    > "Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    > news:...
    >> The only place were transparent ceramics is acceptably used in is electric
    >> cooktops. There's no place for this material in optics.
    >>
    >> Rita

    >
    > Thanks for the highly qualified comment. Could you elaborate if I am right
    > that calcium fluoride is good for teeth only?
    >


    Maybe Rita knows more about cooktops than optics.
     
    Phil Wheeler, Jan 28, 2007
    #8
  9. Cgiorgio wrote:

    >> The only place were transparent ceramics is acceptably used in is
    >> electric cooktops. There's no place for this material in optics.

    >
    > Thanks for the highly qualified comment. Could you elaborate if I am
    > right that calcium fluoride is good for teeth only?


    A much more universally accept chemical would be glycolic acid. It works
    for everything from a facial peel, teeth whitener, tub and tile cleaner, to
    cement cleaner.






    Rita
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=, Jan 28, 2007
    #9
  10. Just D wrote:

    >>> The only place were transparent ceramics is acceptably used in is
    >>> electric cooktops. There's no place for this material in optics.
    >>> Rita

    >
    >> Thanks for the highly qualified comment. Could you elaborate if I am
    >> right that calcium fluoride is good for teeth only?

    >
    > I understand your sarcasm. She should forward this question to the
    > guys created Canon GL2 using these lenses :)


    THANKS! You just solved one of the greatest mysteries in the photography
    world if you are correct. Do they use ceramic lens elements in the Canon
    16-35/2.8? This would be a logical conclusion since glass wouldn't yield so
    much light falloff in the corners.







    Rita
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=, Jan 28, 2007
    #10
  11. Cgiorgio Guest

    "Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:...

    > THANKS! You just solved one of the greatest mysteries in the photography
    > world if you are correct. Do they use ceramic lens elements in the Canon
    > 16-35/2.8? This would be a logical conclusion since glass wouldn't yield
    > so
    > much light falloff in the corners.
    >


    >
    > Rita
    >

    Light falloff because of calcium fluorite lenses - that must be the reason
    they have to step these small 12" silicon wafers under their projectors
    instead of exposing them all at once. Thank you once again for your
    competent comment.
     
    Cgiorgio, Jan 28, 2007
    #11
  12. Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <episaq$p7h$00$-online.com>, Cgiorgio says...
    >
    > Thanks for the highly qualified comment. Could you elaborate if I am right
    > that calcium fluoride is good for teeth only?


    Is calcium fluoride a ceramic? AFAIK a ceramic is a mixture of different
    powders compressed at high temperatures or something similar, in any
    case not something consisting of just one substance. But feel free to
    correct me if I'm mistaken.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E300, E330, E400 and E500 forum at
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus E330 resource - http://myolympus.org/E330/
     
    Alfred Molon, Jan 28, 2007
    #12
  13. Just D Guest

    "Rita Ä Berkowitz"

    >> I understand your sarcasm. She should forward this question to the
    >> guys created Canon GL2 using these lenses :)

    >
    > THANKS! You just solved one of the greatest mysteries in the photography
    > world if you are correct. Do they use ceramic lens elements in the Canon
    > 16-35/2.8? This would be a logical conclusion since glass wouldn't yield
    > so
    > much light falloff in the corners.


    Maybe you're not aware that this camcorder was created about or even more
    than 3 years ago :) At least I bought it at that time. In my mind that's the
    best semipro camcorder that you can buy. But that's not the subj of this NG.
    If it's interesting just take a closer look.

    http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=165&modelid=7512

    > Rita


    Just D.
     
    Just D, Jan 29, 2007
    #13
  14. Just D Guest

    Sorry, forgot to mention in my previous post that this camcorder has 30X
    optical zoom, isn't that impressive? :)

    "Just D" <> wrote in message
    news:rkbvh.5185$...
    > "Rita Ä Berkowitz"
    >
    >>> I understand your sarcasm. She should forward this question to the
    >>> guys created Canon GL2 using these lenses :)

    >>
    >> THANKS! You just solved one of the greatest mysteries in the photography
    >> world if you are correct. Do they use ceramic lens elements in the Canon
    >> 16-35/2.8? This would be a logical conclusion since glass wouldn't yield
    >> so
    >> much light falloff in the corners.

    >
    > Maybe you're not aware that this camcorder was created about or even more
    > than 3 years ago :) At least I bought it at that time. In my mind that's
    > the best semipro camcorder that you can buy. But that's not the subj of
    > this NG. If it's interesting just take a closer look.
    >
    > http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=165&modelid=7512
    >
    >> Rita

    >
    > Just D.
    >
    >
     
    Just D, Jan 29, 2007
    #14
  15. Just D Guest

    "Alfred Molon"
    > Is calcium fluoride a ceramic? AFAIK a ceramic is a mixture of different
    > powders compressed at high temperatures or something similar, in any
    > case not something consisting of just one substance. But feel free to
    > correct me if I'm mistaken.


    Maybe you're right, lets anybody who knows for sure answer. Probably it's
    just the game of the names, terminology, nothing else. Its noticed if you
    call some low quality stuff like EXTRA TRI-PLUS and people will buy it
    immediately, regardless of what's that, tooth paste or some cheap chemical
    against cockroaches. :( I just know that fluorite is a mineral having the
    formula CaF2. It's a well-known, very soft mineral of cubic singony, you
    can scratch it with your nail if you want. Maybe artificial crystals should
    be grown up using some mixes kept for a long time under high pressure and
    temperature, I don't know the technology. I'm just absolutely sure that it's
    almost impossible to use the natural crystals for that purpose of the great
    number of cracks, scratches, etc. I'm writing as a person having the very
    first education as the master in geology in the past.

    Just D.
     
    Just D, Jan 29, 2007
    #15
  16. Just D wrote:

    > Sorry, forgot to mention in my previous post that this camcorder has
    > 30X optical zoom, isn't that impressive? :)


    It's a nice camcorder, but you really don't need superior optics for it. If
    adapted to a dSLR that 30X zoom would fail miserably.






    Rita
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=, Jan 29, 2007
    #16
  17. Just D Guest

    Sure, and not only zoom but a regular wide mode as well, because the best
    fluorite optics has its own disadvantages. Although I was shooting the rings
    of the Saturn easily without additional lenses. It was interesting to get
    its limits. But the same optics would be bad for a DSLR for sure because we
    would never a sharp enough image.

    Just D.

    "Rita Ä Berkowitz"
    > Just D wrote:
    >> Sorry, forgot to mention in my previous post that this camcorder has
    >> 30X optical zoom, isn't that impressive? :)

    > It's a nice camcorder, but you really don't need superior optics for it.
    > If
    > adapted to a dSLR that 30X zoom would fail miserably.
     
    Just D, Jan 29, 2007
    #17
  18. Cgiorgio Guest

    They grow monolithic crystals from CaF2 which are crystal clear, have a high
    transmission from infrared through ultraviolet, a low refractory index and
    very low chromatic dispersion. It is not a ceramic and it is a very
    expensive material. Used for the low dispersion (low chromatic aberration)
    in visible light optics. Because its high transmission for short wave UV it
    is used in semiconductor equipment.


    "Just D" <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:Kvbvh.5191$...
    > "Alfred Molon"
    >
    > Maybe you're right, lets anybody who knows for sure answer. Probably it's
    > just the game of the names, terminology, nothing else. Its noticed if you
    > call some low quality stuff like EXTRA TRI-PLUS and people will buy it
    > immediately, regardless of what's that, tooth paste or some cheap chemical
    > against cockroaches. :( I just know that fluorite is a mineral having the
    > formula CaF2. It's a well-known, very soft mineral of cubic singony, you
    > can scratch it with your nail if you want. Maybe artificial crystals
    > should be grown up using some mixes kept for a long time under high
    > pressure and temperature, I don't know the technology. I'm just absolutely
    > sure that it's almost impossible to use the natural crystals for that
    > purpose of the great number of cracks, scratches, etc. I'm writing as a
    > person having the very first education as the master in geology in the
    > past.
    >
    > Just D.
    >
    >
     
    Cgiorgio, Jan 29, 2007
    #18
  19. Bandicoot Guest

    "Just D" <> wrote in message
    news:Kvbvh.5191$...
    > "Alfred Molon"
    > > Is calcium fluoride a ceramic? AFAIK a ceramic is a mixture of different
    > > powders compressed at high temperatures or something similar, in any
    > > case not something consisting of just one substance. But feel free to
    > > correct me if I'm mistaken.

    >
    > Maybe you're right, lets anybody who knows for sure answer. Probably it's
    > just the game of the names, terminology, nothing else. Its noticed if you
    > call some low quality stuff like EXTRA TRI-PLUS and people will buy it
    > immediately, regardless of what's that, tooth paste or some cheap chemical
    > against cockroaches. :( I just know that fluorite is a mineral having the
    > formula CaF2. It's a well-known, very soft mineral of cubic singony, you
    > can scratch it with your nail if you want. Maybe artificial crystals

    should
    > be grown up using some mixes kept for a long time under high pressure and
    > temperature, I don't know the technology. I'm just absolutely sure that

    it's
    > almost impossible to use the natural crystals for that purpose of the

    great
    > number of cracks, scratches, etc. I'm writing as a person having the very
    > first education as the master in geology in the past.
    >


    Crystalline flourite (which is not a ceramic, obviously) has been used in
    photographic lenses since at least the 1960s. It was a very expensive
    material then, and used to make lenses with transmission into the UV, and
    then in long lenses primarily in controlling chromatic aberration: this is
    the role now handled by various "ED" "LD" and "AD" glasses, which are
    cheaper to produce than large flourite crystals and also more practical in
    use: the flourite was fragile and very susceptible to temperature change.

    None of this has anything at all to do with the OP's question though.


    Peter
     
    Bandicoot, Jan 29, 2007
    #19
  20. wrote:
    > Casio introduced a transparent ceramic lens in their Exilim line
    > camera, model EX-S100 a few years ago. Has the ceramic lens been used
    > in other Casio's digital cameras? What about other digital camera
    > manufacturers? Will ceramic lenses eventually compete with glass
    > lenses? Will we see Nikkor and Canon lenses made of ceramic in the
    > near future? Or, do ceramic lenses only compete in small size lenses
    > (small digital cameras like the exilim line) ?
    > For those who own the Exilim Ex-S100, what kind of picture quality
    > that is obtained from this camera?
    > Thanks for info.
    >

    I am starting to suspect you're not going to get your answer here. I'm not
    convinced there are any samples on the internet.

    You could try searching PBase or Flickr for Exilim EX-S100 pictures and
    compare them with other Casio Exilim photos that use the same sensor and
    processing. Not 100% accurate, but at least you may be able to see if either
    of them have glaring lens faults.

    Casio do not appear to have mentioned it in connection with any other models
    so maybe the benefits were not as great as they hoped.

    The benefit of the ceramic is its high refractive index which is an essential
    property for optical glass when making corrected lens groups. If it is so very
    good, then I suspect it'll eventually get licensed and used more widely across
    the range of manufacturers. If nothing else it promises to reduce the size and
    weight of well-corrected lenses.

    Looks like a wait-and-see.
     
    Richard Polhill, Jan 30, 2007
    #20
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