CDR Storage unreliable?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mike O'sullivan, Jun 19, 2004.

  1. Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I tried to
    look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I find that I
    can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or freeze on one
    particular image, and the software stops responding. Is this common with
    images transferred to CDR, and is there any way of preventing it, or
    recovering from it?
     
    Mike O'sullivan, Jun 19, 2004
    #1
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  2. Mike O'sullivan

    Drifter Guest

    On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:23:48 +0000 (UTC), "Mike O'sullivan"
    <> wrote:

    >Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I tried to
    >look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I find that I
    >can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or freeze on one
    >particular image, and the software stops responding. Is this common with
    >images transferred to CDR, and is there any way of preventing it, or
    >recovering from it?


    Recovery:
    1) try the media in a different CD Player. Some like burned CD's
    better than others. I had an old mitsumi drive that would read
    EVERYTHING. I was very sad when it finally died. On the other hand I
    had a plextor that would only read discs it had created! (very unusual
    for plextor)

    2) Naltech's DVD Rescue has worked well for me in the past.
    http://www.naltech.com/ $39.95

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Making good CD's:

    1) buy good quality media (easier said than done) Do websearches on
    the topic.

    2) Burn your cd's at a lower speed (8x, 10x, not 30x or 40x)

    3) Find the "verify" command in your burning software and use it. If
    your software doesn't have a verify command then scrap it and buy
    something that does.

    4) store your CD's away from high humidity and direct sunlight (the
    evil killer of CD's and DVD's)

    Cheers

    Drifter
    "I've been here, I've been there..."
     
    Drifter, Jun 19, 2004
    #2
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  3. Mike O'sullivan

    Alex Butcher Guest

    On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:23:48 +0000, Mike O'sullivan wrote:

    > Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I tried to
    > look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I find that I
    > can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or freeze on one
    > particular image, and the software stops responding. Is this common with
    > images transferred to CDR, and is there any way of preventing it,


    Use good quality media, and always perform a comparison against the
    original files on your disc/memory card before erasing them. Once burnt,
    keep the discs in some form of protective case and away from sunlight.
    Note that the recording surface is the /label side/, so take care not to
    scratch it or otherwise damage it. I'm also not a fan of sticky press-on
    labels on CDs.

    > or recovering from it?


    See if you can find a utility that will temporarily slow the read speed of
    your CD drive down and attempt to copy the files off onto your hard disc.
    If you manage to do this successfully, burn a new copy.

    Best Regards,
    Alex.
    --
    Alex Butcher Brainbench MVP for Internet Security: www.brainbench.com
    Bristol, UK Need reliable and secure network systems?
    PGP/GnuPG ID:0x271fd950 <http://www.assursys.com/>
     
    Alex Butcher, Jun 19, 2004
    #3
  4. Mike O'sullivan

    Dave Cohen Guest

    You could download a copy of cdspeed and do a media check. This will detect
    errors on media, but won't do much for the recovery part. I've had very good
    luck with both cd-r and cd-rw.
    Dave Cohen

    "Alex Butcher" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:23:48 +0000, Mike O'sullivan wrote:
    >
    > > Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I tried

    to
    > > look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I find that I
    > > can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or freeze on one
    > > particular image, and the software stops responding. Is this common with
    > > images transferred to CDR, and is there any way of preventing it,

    >
    > Use good quality media, and always perform a comparison against the
    > original files on your disc/memory card before erasing them. Once burnt,
    > keep the discs in some form of protective case and away from sunlight.
    > Note that the recording surface is the /label side/, so take care not to
    > scratch it or otherwise damage it. I'm also not a fan of sticky press-on
    > labels on CDs.
    >
    > > or recovering from it?

    >
    > See if you can find a utility that will temporarily slow the read speed of
    > your CD drive down and attempt to copy the files off onto your hard disc.
    > If you manage to do this successfully, burn a new copy.
    >
    > Best Regards,
    > Alex.
    > --
    > Alex Butcher Brainbench MVP for Internet Security: www.brainbench.com
    > Bristol, UK Need reliable and secure network systems?
    > PGP/GnuPG ID:0x271fd950 <http://www.assursys.com/>
    >
     
    Dave Cohen, Jun 19, 2004
    #4
  5. Mike O'sullivan

    Bowzre Guest

    You may have fallen victim to the "dirty little secret" of digital imaging.
    We simply don't know how long out storage mediums will last. With care,
    they're supposed to last decades, but that's under lab conditions, and we
    really don't know. CDs, DVDs, or any optical medium can suffer from rot, and
    when that happens, you're sunk. Try one of the rescue programs the others
    have mentioned, and always have a second set of media on hand.

    "Mike O'sullivan" <> wrote in message
    news:cb1b8j$ss$...
    > Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I tried to
    > look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I find that I
    > can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or freeze on one
    > particular image, and the software stops responding. Is this common with
    > images transferred to CDR, and is there any way of preventing it, or
    > recovering from it?
    >
    >
     
    Bowzre, Jun 19, 2004
    #5
  6. Mike O'sullivan

    Frank ess Guest

    Bowzre wrote:
    > You may have fallen victim to the "dirty little secret" of digital
    > imaging. We simply don't know how long out storage mediums will last.
    > With care, they're supposed to last decades, but that's under lab
    > conditions, and we really don't know. CDs, DVDs, or any optical
    > medium can suffer from rot, and when that happens, you're sunk. Try
    > one of the rescue programs the others have mentioned, and always have
    > a second set of media on hand.
    >
    > "Mike O'sullivan" <> wrote in message
    > news:cb1b8j$ss$...
    >> Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I
    >> tried to look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I
    >> find that I can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or
    >> freeze on one particular image, and the software stops responding.
    >> Is this common with images transferred to CDR, and is there any way
    >> of preventing it, or recovering from it?


    Some errors may not be media-fostered. File systems have their own share
    of quirks and disabilities. One of the simplest and quickest recovery
    tactics is to diskcopy to a different disk. Hard disk is a faster host.
    The copy process' built-in correction functions may straighten out such
    a problem. Or not.


    Frank ess
     
    Frank ess, Jun 19, 2004
    #6
  7. Mike O'sullivan

    Kakadu Guest

    Recently TDK released some blank CDs marketed as "metallic" and called
    "reference CDs". The also market an archival 'gold' CD. None of these
    products are cheap and none of them are marked as *spindle* disks.

    Why I am pointing this out is that I have some cheap CDs myself ($20 for 50)
    and all the images on them have disappeared or begun to in less than a year.
    Since using TDK's 100 year archival discs I have not had any lost images.
    They do cost a lot more than the cheap stuff but hey... So does the camera!

    I found great relief with a product called "Digital Image Recovery" which
    pulled out most of the lost and damaged images from my cheap disks.
    http://www.foto-erhardt.de/

    Hope this helps.
    Kakadu,
    A Photographers Paradise.
    ---------------------------------------
    "Mike O'sullivan" <> wrote in message
    news:cb1b8j$ss$...
    > Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I tried to
    > look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I find that I
    > can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or freeze on one
    > particular image, and the software stops responding. Is this common with
    > images transferred to CDR, and is there any way of preventing it, or
    > recovering from it?
    >
    >
     
    Kakadu, Jun 19, 2004
    #7
  8. Mike O'sullivan

    Bowzre Guest

    "Frank ess" <> wrote in message
    news:FO_Ac.49761$...
    > Bowzre wrote:
    > > You may have fallen victim to the "dirty little secret" of digital
    > > imaging. We simply don't know how long out storage mediums will last.
    > > With care, they're supposed to last decades, but that's under lab
    > > conditions, and we really don't know. CDs, DVDs, or any optical
    > > medium can suffer from rot, and when that happens, you're sunk. Try
    > > one of the rescue programs the others have mentioned, and always have
    > > a second set of media on hand.
    > >
    > > "Mike O'sullivan" <> wrote in message
    > > news:cb1b8j$ss$...
    > >> Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I
    > >> tried to look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I
    > >> find that I can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or
    > >> freeze on one particular image, and the software stops responding.
    > >> Is this common with images transferred to CDR, and is there any way
    > >> of preventing it, or recovering from it?

    >
    > Some errors may not be media-fostered. File systems have their own share
    > of quirks and disabilities. One of the simplest and quickest recovery
    > tactics is to diskcopy to a different disk. Hard disk is a faster host.
    > The copy process' built-in correction functions may straighten out such
    > a problem. Or not.


    And it's those two last words that really hamper digital. The storage
    mediums aren't as reliable as film.

    >
    >
    > Frank ess
    >
    >
     
    Bowzre, Jun 19, 2004
    #8
  9. Mike O'sullivan

    Steven Wandy Guest

    > Note that the recording surface is the /label side/, so take care not to
    > scratch it or otherwise damage it.


    The recording is done through the side OPPOSITE the label. (That's why when
    you get a DVD from your local video store and there are scratches on the
    shiny side some DVD players will have problems with it.) The problem with
    the label side is it is VERY THIN and by scratching it (or even writing on
    it with the wrong type of pen) you will actually cut into the DATA LAYER.
     
    Steven Wandy, Jun 19, 2004
    #9
  10. Mike O'sullivan

    Ken Oaf Guest

    On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:23:48 +0000 (UTC), "Mike O'sullivan"
    <> wrote:

    > Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I tried to
    > look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I find that I
    > can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or freeze on one
    > particular image, and the software stops responding. Is this common with
    > images transferred to CDR, and is there any way of preventing it, or
    > recovering from it?


    Try copying them to your hard drive before viewing.

    Speaking of hard drives, I find they are a good storage medium and seem more
    reliable than CDR/DVDR. Cheap, too. ;-)
     
    Ken Oaf, Jun 19, 2004
    #10
  11. In article <6K0Bc.58561$Hg2.13076@attbi_s04>, says...
    > And it's those two last words that really hamper digital. The storage
    > mediums aren't as reliable as film.


    BS. If you store film incorrectly, it will deteriorate to the point to
    be unusable. It will always deteriorate over time due to chemical
    processes.

    Cheapo CD media failing occasionally does not mark a trend towards CD-R
    and DVD-/+R media "hampering" digital.
     
    Brian C. Baird, Jun 20, 2004
    #11
  12. Mike O'sullivan

    Kakadu Guest

    Be careful Ken...
    When a hard drive fails it is invariably the electronics which go... Killing
    the drive. You have to find another, identical drive to rob the electronics
    from, if you want a hope in hell of reclaiming your files.

    An Archival or reference CD only needs to be stored correctly for it to be
    read on any drive made since 1997 and probably for another 25 years too. If
    different types of storage become available in the future, I'm sure it will
    be a transition, giving time to move from CD to the new medium. In the mean
    time, the service life of an ATA or IDE hard drive is under 4 years.
    ----------

    "Ken Oaf" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:23:48 +0000 (UTC), "Mike O'sullivan"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > > Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I tried

    to
    > > look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I find that I
    > > can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or freeze on one
    > > particular image, and the software stops responding. Is this common with
    > > images transferred to CDR, and is there any way of preventing it, or
    > > recovering from it?

    >
    > Try copying them to your hard drive before viewing.
    >
    > Speaking of hard drives, I find they are a good storage medium and seem

    more
    > reliable than CDR/DVDR. Cheap, too. ;-)
    >
    >
     
    Kakadu, Jun 20, 2004
    #12
  13. Machine Messiah, Jun 20, 2004
    #13
  14. Mike O'sullivan

    Big Bill Guest

    On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:29:59 GMT, "Steven Wandy" <>
    wrote:

    >> Note that the recording surface is the /label side/, so take care not to
    >> scratch it or otherwise damage it.

    >
    >The recording is done through the side OPPOSITE the label. (That's why when
    >you get a DVD from your local video store and there are scratches on the
    >shiny side some DVD players will have problems with it.) The problem with
    >the label side is it is VERY THIN and by scratching it (or even writing on
    >it with the wrong type of pen) you will actually cut into the DATA LAYER.
    >

    CD-Rs and DVDs are constructed differently.
    On a CD-R, the recording layer is *very* close to the label side; on a
    DVD (or DVD recordable) there's an extra layer of plastic between the
    label surface and the recording layer, so scratches on the label side
    of a DVD aren't nearly as liable to damage the recording.
    The extra layer of plastic is done to address just this problem.

    Bill Funk
    Change "g" to "a"
     
    Big Bill, Jun 20, 2004
    #14
  15. Mike O'sullivan

    Big Bill Guest

    On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:46:10 GMT, "Bowzre" <> wrote:

    >> Some errors may not be media-fostered. File systems have their own share
    >> of quirks and disabilities. One of the simplest and quickest recovery
    >> tactics is to diskcopy to a different disk. Hard disk is a faster host.
    >> The copy process' built-in correction functions may straighten out such
    >> a problem. Or not.

    >
    >And it's those two last words that really hamper digital. The storage
    >mediums aren't as reliable as film.


    That may be a little too 'all encompassing.'
    When film is processed carefully, and stored carefully, it's pretty
    reliable.
    The same can be said for digital storage.
    The problem with CD-Rs is that there are many people doing them who
    are more interested with saving money and time than in long-term
    storage.
    If film is handled the same way, it degrades pretty quickly.

    Bill Funk
    Change "g" to "a"
     
    Big Bill, Jun 20, 2004
    #15
  16. Mike O'sullivan

    Alex Butcher Guest

    On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:29:59 +0000, Steven Wandy wrote:

    >> Note that the recording surface is the /label side/, so take care not
    >> to scratch it or otherwise damage it.

    >
    > The recording is done through the side OPPOSITE the label.


    Obviously, since the outer surface of the label side is a) covered by
    printing and b) not facing the write head during the write process, or
    facing the read head during the read process..

    > (That's why when you get a DVD from your local video store and there are
    > scratches on the shiny side some DVD players will have problems with
    > it.) The problem with the label side is it is VERY THIN and by
    > scratching it (or even writing on it with the wrong type of pen) you
    > will actually cut into the DATA LAYER.


    Scratches to the label side are /much/ more likely to affect the
    readability than scratches to the shiny side.

    To be pedantic, the structure of a CD is as follows:

    --- Label/Printing
    --- Reflective Layer
    --- Clear polycarbonate

    A CDR has a dye layer sandwiched between the reflective layer and the
    polycarbonate.

    If the dye layer is damaged (hard) or the reflective layer is damaged
    (easy) then the data will be damaged. If the polycarbonate layer is
    scratched, then the read laser or its reflection will be diffracted and
    the corresponding signal from the read head will be less clear.

    Best Regards,
    Alex.
    --
    Alex Butcher Brainbench MVP for Internet Security: www.brainbench.com
    Bristol, UK Need reliable and secure network systems?
    PGP/GnuPG ID:0x271fd950 <http://www.assursys.com/>
     
    Alex Butcher, Jun 20, 2004
    #16
  17. Thanks everyone for all the information, and suggestions.


    "Mike O'sullivan" <> wrote in message
    news:cb1b8j$ss$...
    > Some months ago I burnt some of my pictures on to CDR. Recently I tried to
    > look at these, but with any image viewer, like Irfanview, I find that I
    > can't access some of them. The viewer seems to lock or freeze on one
    > particular image, and the software stops responding. Is this common with
    > images transferred to CDR, and is there any way of preventing it, or
    > recovering from it?
    >
    >
     
    Mike O'sullivan, Jun 20, 2004
    #17
  18. Mike O'sullivan

    Bowzre Guest

    "Brian C. Baird" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <6K0Bc.58561$Hg2.13076@attbi_s04>, says...
    > > And it's those two last words that really hamper digital. The storage
    > > mediums aren't as reliable as film.

    >
    > BS. If you store film incorrectly, it will deteriorate to the point to
    > be unusable. It will always deteriorate over time due to chemical
    > processes.


    Likewise for CD-R, or any other physical medium. But the notion that CD-R is
    "perfect" is what's BS. FWIW, I have some 50 year old chromes that look as
    good as the day they were processed. Unfortunately, I won't be around
    another 50 years to see what's left of today's CDs, but I don't yet trust
    them completely.

    >
    > Cheapo CD media failing occasionally does not mark a trend towards CD-R
    > and DVD-/+R media "hampering" digital.


    What I meant was that digital needs to overcome shortcomings, and storage is
    one of them. Digital is photography's future; we all see that coming. But to
    dismiss film as a viable storage medium is not intelligent.
     
    Bowzre, Jun 20, 2004
    #18
  19. Mike O'sullivan

    Bowzre Guest

    "Big Bill" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:46:10 GMT, "Bowzre" <> wrote:
    >
    > >> Some errors may not be media-fostered. File systems have their own

    share
    > >> of quirks and disabilities. One of the simplest and quickest recovery
    > >> tactics is to diskcopy to a different disk. Hard disk is a faster host.
    > >> The copy process' built-in correction functions may straighten out such
    > >> a problem. Or not.

    > >
    > >And it's those two last words that really hamper digital. The storage
    > >mediums aren't as reliable as film.

    >
    > That may be a little too 'all encompassing.'
    > When film is processed carefully, and stored carefully, it's pretty
    > reliable.
    > The same can be said for digital storage.
    > The problem with CD-Rs is that there are many people doing them who
    > are more interested with saving money and time than in long-term
    > storage.
    > If film is handled the same way, it degrades pretty quickly.


    My point is that we don't have any long-term real life tests of the current
    digital storage mediums, like we do with film. Maybe the only answer is to
    keep upgrading the storage medium with digital until we really know
    something.

    >
    > Bill Funk
    > Change "g" to "a"
     
    Bowzre, Jun 20, 2004
    #19
  20. Mike O'sullivan

    Big Bill Guest

    On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:14:54 GMT, "Bowzre" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Big Bill" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:46:10 GMT, "Bowzre" <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >> Some errors may not be media-fostered. File systems have their own

    >share
    >> >> of quirks and disabilities. One of the simplest and quickest recovery
    >> >> tactics is to diskcopy to a different disk. Hard disk is a faster host.
    >> >> The copy process' built-in correction functions may straighten out such
    >> >> a problem. Or not.
    >> >
    >> >And it's those two last words that really hamper digital. The storage
    >> >mediums aren't as reliable as film.

    >>
    >> That may be a little too 'all encompassing.'
    >> When film is processed carefully, and stored carefully, it's pretty
    >> reliable.
    >> The same can be said for digital storage.
    >> The problem with CD-Rs is that there are many people doing them who
    >> are more interested with saving money and time than in long-term
    >> storage.
    >> If film is handled the same way, it degrades pretty quickly.

    >
    >My point is that we don't have any long-term real life tests of the current
    >digital storage mediums, like we do with film. Maybe the only answer is to
    >keep upgrading the storage medium with digital until we really know
    >something.


    Good point, but artificial aging does a pretty good job.
    I think that hedging your bets with multiple backups, and makng
    backups at intervals, is a good practice.
    I, personally, don't think the need (or desire, whichever) to do this
    is a reason to abandon digital for film.
    >
    >>
    >> Bill Funk
    >> Change "g" to "a"

    >


    Bill Funk
    Change "g" to "a"
     
    Big Bill, Jun 20, 2004
    #20
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