Canon mirrorless let-down (maybe)

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    I'd much rather they produced something like the SLR-looking thing in
    the lower picture than the bland black thing in the top pictures. I
    don't know if that image is real, but it looks too spartan and
    boring. I don't see the back of it, but I doubt anyone will be
    thrilled if everything is "touch-screen" driven.
    It looks even more stripped-down than their top P&S camera!!

    http://www.canonrumors.com/
    RichA, Jul 20, 2012
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:
    >I'd much rather they produced something like the SLR-looking thing in
    >the lower picture than the bland black thing in the top pictures. I
    >don't know if that image is real, but it looks too spartan and
    >boring. I don't see the back of it, but I doubt anyone will be
    >thrilled if everything is "touch-screen" driven.
    >It looks even more stripped-down than their top P&S camera!!
    >http://www.canonrumors.com/



    The "SLR-looking thing" was never going to happen. It's one of
    several different retro ideas by the same guy, none of which look
    anything like the camera Canon will announce on Monday July 23.

    As with Nikon, Canon doesn't want the mirrorless system to kill off
    the very profitable entry-level DSLR market. So the 'bland black
    thing' is what is on offer. We were told that there will be a high
    end camera body to come later plus a whole range of lenses and
    accessories.

    On Monday, Canon will announce the camera body and 22mm pancake as
    shown plus a kit zoom lens and an EF adapter. EF lenses will have
    full functionality including phase detect AF.
    Bruce, Jul 20, 2012
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Jul 20, 8:54 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    > RichA <> wrote:
    > >I'd much rather they produced something like the SLR-looking thing in
    > >the lower picture than the bland black thing in the top pictures.  I
    > >don't know if that image is real, but it looks too spartan and
    > >boring.  I don't see the back of it, but I doubt anyone will be
    > >thrilled if everything is "touch-screen" driven.
    > >It looks even more stripped-down than their top P&S camera!!
    > >http://www.canonrumors.com/

    >
    > The "SLR-looking thing" was never going to happen.  It's one of
    > several different retro ideas by the same guy, none of which look
    > anything like the camera Canon will announce on Monday July 23.
    >
    > As with Nikon, Canon doesn't want the mirrorless system to kill off
    > the very profitable entry-level DSLR market.  So the 'bland black
    > thing' is what is on offer.  We were told that there will be a high
    > end camera body to come later plus a whole range of lenses and
    > accessories.
    >
    > On Monday, Canon will announce the camera body and 22mm pancake as
    > shown plus a kit zoom lens and an EF adapter.  EF lenses will have
    > full functionality including phase detect AF.


    But, will they need a clunky adapter for phase like Nikon and Sony do?
    RichA, Jul 20, 2012
    #3
  4. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:

    >On Jul 20, 8:54 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    >> RichA <> wrote:
    >> >I'd much rather they produced something like the SLR-looking thing in
    >> >the lower picture than the bland black thing in the top pictures.  I
    >> >don't know if that image is real, but it looks too spartan and
    >> >boring.  I don't see the back of it, but I doubt anyone will be
    >> >thrilled if everything is "touch-screen" driven.
    >> >It looks even more stripped-down than their top P&S camera!!
    >> >http://www.canonrumors.com/

    >>
    >> The "SLR-looking thing" was never going to happen.  It's one of
    >> several different retro ideas by the same guy, none of which look
    >> anything like the camera Canon will announce on Monday July 23.
    >>
    >> As with Nikon, Canon doesn't want the mirrorless system to kill off
    >> the very profitable entry-level DSLR market.  So the 'bland black
    >> thing' is what is on offer.  We were told that there will be a high
    >> end camera body to come later plus a whole range of lenses and
    >> accessories.
    >>
    >> On Monday, Canon will announce the camera body and 22mm pancake as
    >> shown plus a kit zoom lens and an EF adapter.  EF lenses will have
    >> full functionality including phase detect AF.

    >
    >But, will they need a clunky adapter for phase like Nikon and Sony do?



    No, the phase detect is on the sensor like the Nikon 1 Series and
    Canon Rebel T4i.
    Bruce, Jul 20, 2012
    #4
  5. RichA

    Me Guest

    On 21/07/2012 12:41 a.m., RichA wrote:
    > I'd much rather they produced something like the SLR-looking thing in
    > the lower picture than the bland black thing in the top pictures. I
    > don't know if that image is real, but it looks too spartan and
    > boring. I don't see the back of it, but I doubt anyone will be
    > thrilled if everything is "touch-screen" driven.
    > It looks even more stripped-down than their top P&S camera!!
    >
    > http://www.canonrumors.com/
    >

    If the images are real, then the 43mm filter thread can be used to
    measure the shutter opening at just under 15mm width, and the sensor
    would be a little smaller than the opening.
    Have Canon made any announcement about format?
    Looks like Canon's "EF-M" format could be about the same as the Nikon
    "CX" format in the 1 series.
    Me, Jul 20, 2012
    #5
  6. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Jul 20, 6:04 pm, Me <> wrote:
    > On 21/07/2012 12:41 a.m., RichA wrote:> I'd much rather they produced something like the SLR-looking thing in
    > > the lower picture than the bland black thing in the top pictures.  I
    > > don't know if that image is real, but it looks too spartan and
    > > boring.  I don't see the back of it, but I doubt anyone will be
    > > thrilled if everything is "touch-screen" driven.
    > > It looks even more stripped-down than their top P&S camera!!

    >
    > >http://www.canonrumors.com/

    >
    > If the images are real, then the 43mm filter thread can be used to
    > measure the shutter opening at just under 15mm width, and the sensor
    > would be a little smaller than the opening.
    > Have Canon made any announcement about format?
    > Looks like Canon's "EF-M" format could be about the same as the Nikon
    > "CX" format in the 1 series.


    So not as large as their DSLRs? Looks like they are possibly playing
    the same (don't cannibalize DSLR sales) as Nikon then. So much for
    "killing off" m4/3rds or especially Sony. Even Samsung APC stuff
    might survive.
    RichA, Jul 21, 2012
    #6
  7. RichA

    Me Guest

    On 21/07/2012 12:35 p.m., RichA wrote:
    > On Jul 20, 6:04 pm, Me <> wrote:
    >> On 21/07/2012 12:41 a.m., RichA wrote:> I'd much rather they produced something like the SLR-looking thing in
    >>> the lower picture than the bland black thing in the top pictures. I
    >>> don't know if that image is real, but it looks too spartan and
    >>> boring. I don't see the back of it, but I doubt anyone will be
    >>> thrilled if everything is "touch-screen" driven.
    >>> It looks even more stripped-down than their top P&S camera!!

    >>
    >>> http://www.canonrumors.com/

    >>
    >> If the images are real, then the 43mm filter thread can be used to
    >> measure the shutter opening at just under 15mm width, and the sensor
    >> would be a little smaller than the opening.
    >> Have Canon made any announcement about format?
    >> Looks like Canon's "EF-M" format could be about the same as the Nikon
    >> "CX" format in the 1 series.

    >
    > So not as large as their DSLRs? Looks like they are possibly playing
    > the same (don't cannibalize DSLR sales) as Nikon then. So much for
    > "killing off" m4/3rds or especially Sony. Even Samsung APC stuff
    > might survive.
    >

    It looks like that's the case.
    Nothing "wrong" with CX format, just that different formats have
    different advantages and disadvantages.
    For existing larger format N & C dslr users, I expect for many the
    disadvantages will outweigh the advantages.
    But better to cannibalise your own sales, than to have your lunch eaten
    by a competitor. I think both N & C have made a tactical mistake, but
    they know their market much better than I do, so we wait and see.
    If they see that they've made a mistake, then I expect that they'll be
    able to roll out aps-c (or even 35mm) milc models very quickly.
    Me, Jul 21, 2012
    #7
  8. RichA

    Wally Guest

    On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 10:04:09 +1200, Me <> wrote:

    >On 21/07/2012 12:41 a.m., RichA wrote:
    >> I'd much rather they produced something like the SLR-looking thing in
    >> the lower picture than the bland black thing in the top pictures. I
    >> don't know if that image is real, but it looks too spartan and
    >> boring. I don't see the back of it, but I doubt anyone will be
    >> thrilled if everything is "touch-screen" driven.
    >> It looks even more stripped-down than their top P&S camera!!
    >>
    >> http://www.canonrumors.com/
    >>

    >If the images are real, then the 43mm filter thread can be used to
    >measure the shutter opening at just under 15mm width, and the sensor
    >would be a little smaller than the opening.


    Using the implied proportions, then the width of the camera would be
    about 66 mm, which is very small indeed.

    W
    Wally, Jul 21, 2012
    #8
  9. RichA

    Me Guest

    On 21/07/2012 2:52 p.m., Wally wrote:
    > On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 10:04:09 +1200, Me <> wrote:
    >
    >> On 21/07/2012 12:41 a.m., RichA wrote:
    >>> I'd much rather they produced something like the SLR-looking thing in
    >>> the lower picture than the bland black thing in the top pictures. I
    >>> don't know if that image is real, but it looks too spartan and
    >>> boring. I don't see the back of it, but I doubt anyone will be
    >>> thrilled if everything is "touch-screen" driven.
    >>> It looks even more stripped-down than their top P&S camera!!
    >>>
    >>> http://www.canonrumors.com/
    >>>

    >> If the images are real, then the 43mm filter thread can be used to
    >> measure the shutter opening at just under 15mm width, and the sensor
    >> would be a little smaller than the opening.

    >
    > Using the implied proportions, then the width of the camera would be
    > about 66 mm, which is very small indeed.
    >

    Yes indeed thanks - something is wrong!
    Okay - now look at the 4th photo down - of the lens itself, and the lens
    cap can be assumed to be sitting in the filter thread. I'd assumed that
    the filter thread was in the outer lens barrel.

    Some very good news, remeasure based on this, and it looks like Canon
    have put an APS-c sensor in this camera! (about 22mm wide)
    It's also more credible as a 22mm f2 lens wouldn't be very interesting
    on a smaller format, but could be part of a nice little system at APS-c
    format.

    Canon will kill Nikon's one system in the water if this is any good.
    Me, Jul 21, 2012
    #9
  10. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    rwalker <> wrote:
    >On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 10:27:02 +0200, Alfred Molon
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>This could be the beginning of the end of the dominance of Nikon and
    >>Canon in the interchangeable lens camera sector. The future here could
    >>belong to other players such as Olympus, Panasonic, Sony or even Samsung
    >>who don't have much to lose in the dying DSLR business.

    >
    >Is the DSLR really dying?



    Not in the USA, where mirrorless cameras have only a small share of
    the market for interchangeable-lens cameras. However, in Japan,
    mirrorless cameras have a market share of slightly over 50%.

    In Europe, their market share is just under 30%. In the USA, only
    about half of that.
    Bruce, Jul 21, 2012
    #10
  11. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Jul 21, 6:32 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    > rwalker <> wrote:
    > >On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 10:27:02 +0200, Alfred Molon
    > ><> wrote:

    >
    > >>This could be the beginning of the end of the dominance of Nikon and
    > >>Canon in the interchangeable lens camera sector. The future here could
    > >>belong to other players such as Olympus, Panasonic, Sony or even Samsung
    > >>who don't have much to lose in the dying DSLR business.

    >
    > >Is the DSLR really dying?

    >
    > Not in the USA, where mirrorless cameras have only a small share of
    > the market for interchangeable-lens cameras.  However, in Japan,
    > mirrorless cameras have a market share of slightly over 50%.
    >
    > In Europe, their market share is just under 30%.  In the USA, only
    > about half of that.


    Considering they've only been around for 4 years versus 13 for DSLR's
    that's pretty significant growth.
    RichA, Jul 21, 2012
    #11
  12. Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    > In article <>,


    >> Is the DSLR really dying?


    > It will be a slow death. The mirrorless offering is still at the
    > beginning, but classical DSLRs will for sure disappear sooner or later.


    You keep saying this.
    However, for that to happen several huge technological leaps need
    to be made. Whether that'll happen before or after flying cars,
    holiday trips to the moon colonies or driving (i.e. with a human
    at the wheel) being illegal --- or at all --- is open to debate.

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jul 21, 2012
    #12
  13. RichA

    Joe Kotroczo Guest

    On 21/07/2012 10:55, rwalker wrote:
    > On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 10:27:02 +0200, Alfred Molon
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> This could be the beginning of the end of the dominance of Nikon and
    >> Canon in the interchangeable lens camera sector. The future here could
    >> belong to other players such as Olympus, Panasonic, Sony or even Samsung
    >> who don't have much to lose in the dying DSLR business.

    >
    > Is the DSLR really dying?


    With good electronic viewfinders becoming available, and on-sensor phase
    AF, what is the point of keeping the flappy mirror?

    --
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    Joe Kotroczo, Jul 22, 2012
    #13
  14. Joe Kotroczo wrote:

    > On 21/07/2012 10:55, rwalker wrote:
    >
    >> On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 10:27:02 +0200, Alfred Molon
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> This could be the beginning of the end of the dominance of Nikon and
    >>> Canon in the interchangeable lens camera sector. The future here could
    >>> belong to other players such as Olympus, Panasonic, Sony or even Samsung
    >>> who don't have much to lose in the dying DSLR business.

    >>
    >>
    >> Is the DSLR really dying?

    >
    >
    > With good electronic viewfinders becoming available, and on-sensor phase
    > AF, what is the point of keeping the flappy mirror?
    >

    Could you please elaborate? My understanding, which may be limited, was
    that EVF cameras had to use the contrast-based AF rather than the faster
    phase detection AF found in mirror box cameras. Has the technology now
    changed to permit phase detection AF in EVF cameras? If so, I have not
    seen anything to that effect, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

    Of course, you're not referring to SONY's translucent mirror technology
    which does use phase detection AF, are you?
    Alan Lichtenstein, Jul 22, 2012
    #14
  15. RichA

    Joe Kotroczo Guest

    On 22/07/2012 12:53, Alan Lichtenstein wrote:
    > Joe Kotroczo wrote:


    (...)
    >>> Is the DSLR really dying?

    >>
    >>
    >> With good electronic viewfinders becoming available, and on-sensor phase
    >> AF, what is the point of keeping the flappy mirror?
    >>

    > Could you please elaborate? My understanding, which may be limited, was
    > that EVF cameras had to use the contrast-based AF rather than the faster
    > phase detection AF found in mirror box cameras. Has the technology now
    > changed to permit phase detection AF in EVF cameras? If so, I have not
    > seen anything to that effect, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.


    Fuji has launched on-sensor phase detection in 2010.
    <http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/8/5/fujifilmpd>

    It's also used in the Nikon 1.
    <http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3281713418/nikon-1-system-first-impressions>
    "(...) incorporates a 'Hybrid' autofocus system that employs both Phase
    and Contrast Detection focus methods"

    Or in Nikon marketing speak:
    "Nikon 1 is equipped with both a "focal plane phase-detection AF" superb
    for shooting fast action and a "contrast-detect AF" excellent for
    capturing subtle details in poorly lit areas".
    "http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/acil/bodies/v1/features02.htm"

    So it appears to be technically possible, which means it should only a
    matter of time before we see it being widely used.

    Also, I would be extremely surprised if Canon was to launch a Nikon 1
    competitor without phase detection AF. They'd get slaughtered in the
    trade rags.

    > Of course, you're not referring to SONY's translucent mirror technology
    > which does use phase detection AF, are you?


    No, Sony still uses a separate phase detection sensor for the AF, hence
    they need for the translucent mirror.

    But I do own a Sony A77, and the EVF on that is really good IMO. I like
    it a lot.

    --
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    Joe Kotroczo, Jul 22, 2012
    #15
  16. Joe Kotroczo wrote:
    > On 22/07/2012 12:53, Alan Lichtenstein wrote:
    >
    >> Joe Kotroczo wrote:

    >
    >
    > (...)
    >
    >>>> Is the DSLR really dying?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> With good electronic viewfinders becoming available, and on-sensor phase
    >>> AF, what is the point of keeping the flappy mirror?
    >>>

    >> Could you please elaborate? My understanding, which may be limited, was
    >> that EVF cameras had to use the contrast-based AF rather than the faster
    >> phase detection AF found in mirror box cameras. Has the technology now
    >> changed to permit phase detection AF in EVF cameras? If so, I have not
    >> seen anything to that effect, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't
    >> exist.

    >
    >
    > Fuji has launched on-sensor phase detection in 2010.
    > <http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/8/5/fujifilmpd>
    >
    > It's also used in the Nikon 1.
    > <http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3281713418/nikon-1-system-first-impressions>
    >
    > "(...) incorporates a 'Hybrid' autofocus system that employs both Phase
    > and Contrast Detection focus methods"
    >
    > Or in Nikon marketing speak:
    > "Nikon 1 is equipped with both a "focal plane phase-detection AF" superb
    > for shooting fast action and a "contrast-detect AF" excellent for
    > capturing subtle details in poorly lit areas".
    > "http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/acil/bodies/v1/features02.htm"
    >
    > So it appears to be technically possible, which means it should only a
    > matter of time before we see it being widely used.
    >
    > Also, I would be extremely surprised if Canon was to launch a Nikon 1
    > competitor without phase detection AF. They'd get slaughtered in the
    > trade rags.
    >
    >> Of course, you're not referring to SONY's translucent mirror technology
    >> which does use phase detection AF, are you?

    >
    >
    > No, Sony still uses a separate phase detection sensor for the AF, hence
    > they need for the translucent mirror.
    >
    > But I do own a Sony A77, and the EVF on that is really good IMO. I like
    > it a lot.
    >

    Thank you. I'll read it to update my information.
    Alan Lichtenstein, Jul 22, 2012
    #16
  17. RichA

    Joe Kotroczo Guest

    On 22/07/2012 17:35, Alan Lichtenstein wrote:

    (...)
    >>

    > Thank you. I'll read it to update my information.


    Just found out the Canon EOS 650D also has both:

    "The EOS 650D has a new 'Hybrid CMOS' sensor that now includes pixels
    dedicated to phase detection autofocus (in a similar fashion to Nikon's
    1 J1 and 1 V1 mirrorless cameras). The Hybrid AF system uses these to
    set the lens quickly to roughly the correct distance, then uses contrast
    detection AF to fine-tune focus."
    <http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-650d-rebel-t4i>


    So I guess it's a good bet the new Canon mirrorless will have the same
    sensor as the 650D.

    --
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    Joe Kotroczo, Jul 22, 2012
    #17
  18. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    Joe Kotroczo <> wrote:
    >On 22/07/2012 17:35, Alan Lichtenstein wrote:
    >
    >(...)
    >>>

    >> Thank you. I'll read it to update my information.

    >
    >Just found out the Canon EOS 650D also has both:
    >
    >"The EOS 650D has a new 'Hybrid CMOS' sensor that now includes pixels
    >dedicated to phase detection autofocus (in a similar fashion to Nikon's
    >1 J1 and 1 V1 mirrorless cameras). The Hybrid AF system uses these to
    >set the lens quickly to roughly the correct distance, then uses contrast
    >detection AF to fine-tune focus."
    ><http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-650d-rebel-t4i>
    >
    >
    >So I guess it's a good bet the new Canon mirrorless will have the same
    >sensor as the 650D.



    Yes, it has. Same size, same features, same 1.6X crop factor. Even
    the standard 18-55mm zoom lens is similar. A very different approach
    to Nikon's 1 Series.
    Bruce, Jul 22, 2012
    #18
  19. RichA

    Joe Kotroczo Guest

    On 21/07/2012 21:23, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
    > Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    >> In article <>,

    >
    >>> Is the DSLR really dying?

    >
    >> It will be a slow death. The mirrorless offering is still at the
    >> beginning, but classical DSLRs will for sure disappear sooner or later.

    >
    > You keep saying this.
    > However, for that to happen several huge technological leaps need
    > to be made. Whether that'll happen before or after flying cars,
    > holiday trips to the moon colonies or driving (i.e. with a human
    > at the wheel) being illegal --- or at all --- is open to debate.


    Which technological leaps would that be?


    --
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    Joe Kotroczo, Jul 22, 2012
    #19
  20. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Joe Kotroczo
    <> wrote:

    > >>> Is the DSLR really dying?

    > >
    > >> It will be a slow death. The mirrorless offering is still at the
    > >> beginning, but classical DSLRs will for sure disappear sooner or later.

    > >
    > > You keep saying this.
    > > However, for that to happen several huge technological leaps need
    > > to be made. Whether that'll happen before or after flying cars,
    > > holiday trips to the moon colonies or driving (i.e. with a human
    > > at the wheel) being illegal --- or at all --- is open to debate.

    >
    > Which technological leaps would that be?


    eliminating the latency of evf and improving its dynamic range.
    nospam, Jul 22, 2012
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Old Gringo

    Of Intrest ? Maybe Yes, Maybe No

    Old Gringo, Oct 11, 2004, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    558
    Old Gringo
    Oct 11, 2004
  2. quasi/various/bob [7.13.86.42]

    OT: Let me in! Let me in!

    quasi/various/bob [7.13.86.42], May 29, 2006, in forum: MCSE
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    644
    The Rev [MCT]
    May 30, 2006
  3. Daniel
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    344
    Daniel
    May 11, 2004
  4. iL_weReo

    Maybe it will; maybe it won't

    iL_weReo, Oct 11, 2009, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    500
    Desk Rabbit
    Oct 13, 2009
  5. RichA
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    316
    Peter
    Sep 8, 2010
Loading...

Share This Page