Canon A510 question about file type & sise

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Gene, Mar 13, 2005.

  1. Gene

    Gene Guest

    I just purchased a new Canon A510 & really love it.
    However, I'm a little confused about file type & size.

    Questions:

    Is there a way to copy the "RAW" file images from the
    A510 to my PC hard drive? I use XP Pro to simply "copy" the
    JPG images to a folder via a USB cable while running Windows
    Explorer. I do not use any Canon, etc. software.
    I have no problem copying over the A510 JPG images to my hard drive
    and viewing the JPG images on my PC.

    This is a 3.2MP camera. I want to shoot "every" photo at
    MAXIMUM quality. Therefore, I set the A510 to 2048x1536
    and Superfine - which seems to be the maximum setting possible.
    I make this assumption because it creates the largest file size of
    all possible settings. I shot ~300 photos in a number
    of different locations, lighting, etc. I "assumed" that the camera
    would generate ~3MP image file sizes. It does not. The JPG
    image sizes ranged from 1010KB to 2705KB. QUESTION:
    How do I set this camera to get a 3MP image each & every
    shot? Are the RAW images in the camera, or does it do the
    JPEG conversion "on-the-fly" , thereby not preserve the
    original raw data?

    I did a little test.
    I shot three photos under the same conditions.
    Photo #1 was 2048x1536 Superfine = 1419BK JPG file
    Photo #2 was 2048x1536 Fine = 879BK JPG file
    Photo #3 was 2048x1536 Normal = 401BK JPG file

    After blowing-up and comparing the above three JPG images,
    I really can't see "any" difference in image quality.
    They all look the same to me.

    Here is my conclusion per the above.
    To get the BEST quality photos: Set my Canon A510 to
    2048x1536 Superfine and live with the fact that the
    A510 converts the raw image data to a JPG file of
    varying sizes. Given the settings of 2048x1536 Superfine,
    there is nothing else I can do to cause this A510 to
    generate an image of more pixels, or a larger JPG
    image file. I'm going to get what I get, and I can't save raw
    image files to my hard drive.

    THANKS,
    Gene
     
    Gene, Mar 13, 2005
    #1
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  2. Gene

    paul Guest

    I don't think you can get RAW files from that camera. It would be a
    specific mode if available.

    3MP means 3 million pixels, not the file size.
    2048x1536 = 3,145,728 pixels.

    The file size varies according to the amount of detail in the image,
    even for uncompressed images. A piture of tree branches will be larger
    than a picture of a blank sky.

    You should be able to tell the difference in the different settings,
    jpeg compression simplifies in squares so you can see a larger grid
    (artifacts) plus posterization in skys due to reducing the number of
    colors in a gradual gradation. Try zooming in a ridiculous amount like
    400% or more in the lower quality jpegs. Try saving an image at a
    ridiculously low quality jpeg setting to get a feel for what jpeg
    compression looks like if you don't know that will help.

    The high quality jpegs from my D70 are very hard to see any squareish
    artifacts until you zoom wayy the hell in. It's equivalent to about 95%
    quality & I'm sure your camera is similar. My Olympus C3030 with 3MP
    typically produced about 700K files so yours is less compression than
    that at 1,400K for the same number of pixels.

    RAW files would only be a significant benefit if you planned to do post
    processing stretching the exposure & contrast but if you got the
    exposure correct, the jpegs are indeed virtually indistinguishable from
    anything a RAW file could create. Very subtle differences in the more
    careful on-computer processing compared to the speed optimized in-camera
    processing but no big deal. I made hundreds of lovely 8x10 prints from
    my 3MP 700K images & I'm sure you will also have a lot of fun with this!



    Gene wrote:

    > I just purchased a new Canon A510 & really love it.
    > However, I'm a little confused about file type & size.
    >
    > Questions:
    >
    > Is there a way to copy the "RAW" file images from the
    > A510 to my PC hard drive? I use XP Pro to simply "copy" the
    > JPG images to a folder via a USB cable while running Windows
    > Explorer. I do not use any Canon, etc. software.
    > I have no problem copying over the A510 JPG images to my hard drive
    > and viewing the JPG images on my PC.
    >
    > This is a 3.2MP camera. I want to shoot "every" photo at
    > MAXIMUM quality. Therefore, I set the A510 to 2048x1536
    > and Superfine - which seems to be the maximum setting possible.
    > I make this assumption because it creates the largest file size of
    > all possible settings. I shot ~300 photos in a number
    > of different locations, lighting, etc. I "assumed" that the camera
    > would generate ~3MP image file sizes. It does not. The JPG
    > image sizes ranged from 1010KB to 2705KB. QUESTION:
    > How do I set this camera to get a 3MP image each & every
    > shot? Are the RAW images in the camera, or does it do the
    > JPEG conversion "on-the-fly" , thereby not preserve the
    > original raw data?
    >
    > I did a little test.
    > I shot three photos under the same conditions.
    > Photo #1 was 2048x1536 Superfine = 1419BK JPG file
    > Photo #2 was 2048x1536 Fine = 879BK JPG file
    > Photo #3 was 2048x1536 Normal = 401BK JPG file
    >
    > After blowing-up and comparing the above three JPG images,
    > I really can't see "any" difference in image quality.
    > They all look the same to me.
    >
    > Here is my conclusion per the above.
    > To get the BEST quality photos: Set my Canon A510 to
    > 2048x1536 Superfine and live with the fact that the
    > A510 converts the raw image data to a JPG file of
    > varying sizes. Given the settings of 2048x1536 Superfine,
    > there is nothing else I can do to cause this A510 to
    > generate an image of more pixels, or a larger JPG
    > image file. I'm going to get what I get, and I can't save raw
    > image files to my hard drive.
    >
    > THANKS,
    > Gene
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    paul, Mar 13, 2005
    #2
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  3. Gene

    Sheldon Guest

    Don't know much about your camera and RAW images, but regardless of your
    camera, every JPG image will be a different size based on the image and
    colors in it. Take a shot of something with lots of colors and detail, and
    then take a picture of a clear blue sky, or a white sheet of paper. The
    shot with one color in the entire image will be quite small, as there isn't
    much data to record.

    During the compression process the data is basically "make every pixel blue"
    for the sky, or "make every pixel white" for the sheet of paper. Put a
    couple of marks on the sheet of paper and the jpg image size will go up a
    bit.


    "Gene" <> wrote in message
    news:vLPYd.205$...
    >I just purchased a new Canon A510 & really love it.
    > However, I'm a little confused about file type & size.
    >
    > Questions:
    >
    > Is there a way to copy the "RAW" file images from the
    > A510 to my PC hard drive? I use XP Pro to simply "copy" the
    > JPG images to a folder via a USB cable while running Windows
    > Explorer. I do not use any Canon, etc. software.
    > I have no problem copying over the A510 JPG images to my hard drive
    > and viewing the JPG images on my PC.
    >
    > This is a 3.2MP camera. I want to shoot "every" photo at
    > MAXIMUM quality. Therefore, I set the A510 to 2048x1536
    > and Superfine - which seems to be the maximum setting possible.
    > I make this assumption because it creates the largest file size of
    > all possible settings. I shot ~300 photos in a number
    > of different locations, lighting, etc. I "assumed" that the camera
    > would generate ~3MP image file sizes. It does not. The JPG
    > image sizes ranged from 1010KB to 2705KB. QUESTION:
    > How do I set this camera to get a 3MP image each & every
    > shot? Are the RAW images in the camera, or does it do the
    > JPEG conversion "on-the-fly" , thereby not preserve the
    > original raw data?
    >
    > I did a little test.
    > I shot three photos under the same conditions.
    > Photo #1 was 2048x1536 Superfine = 1419BK JPG file
    > Photo #2 was 2048x1536 Fine = 879BK JPG file
    > Photo #3 was 2048x1536 Normal = 401BK JPG file
    >
    > After blowing-up and comparing the above three JPG images,
    > I really can't see "any" difference in image quality.
    > They all look the same to me.
    >
    > Here is my conclusion per the above.
    > To get the BEST quality photos: Set my Canon A510 to
    > 2048x1536 Superfine and live with the fact that the
    > A510 converts the raw image data to a JPG file of
    > varying sizes. Given the settings of 2048x1536 Superfine,
    > there is nothing else I can do to cause this A510 to
    > generate an image of more pixels, or a larger JPG
    > image file. I'm going to get what I get, and I can't save raw
    > image files to my hard drive.
    >
    > THANKS,
    > Gene
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    Sheldon, Mar 13, 2005
    #3
  4. Gene

    Gene Guest

    Thanks, Paul.

    I was hoping that there was a way to capture a raw file
    that had "one" byte per pixel :)

    I waited for two years to buy a new camera, nothing
    looked good until now. This little 3.2MP Canon A510 is
    awesome. The more I play with it, the more I like it.
    It's a replacement for the Canon A75.

    Now that I have a better understanding of the A510 design, I will
    probably buy the A530 (replacement for the ~5MP Canon A95)
    when it ships. We plan to use a HDTV to display the image slide shows,
    so I "suspect" that a ~5MP camera will produce a much better image -
    but I have not researched what JPG file size will display best on
    a large HDTV.

    Gene





    "paul" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I don't think you can get RAW files from that camera. It would be a
    >specific mode if available.
    >
    > 3MP means 3 million pixels, not the file size.
    > 2048x1536 = 3,145,728 pixels.
    >
    > The file size varies according to the amount of detail in the image, even
    > for uncompressed images. A piture of tree branches will be larger than a
    > picture of a blank sky.
    >
    > You should be able to tell the difference in the different settings, jpeg
    > compression simplifies in squares so you can see a larger grid (artifacts)
    > plus posterization in skys due to reducing the number of colors in a
    > gradual gradation. Try zooming in a ridiculous amount like 400% or more in
    > the lower quality jpegs. Try saving an image at a ridiculously low quality
    > jpeg setting to get a feel for what jpeg compression looks like if you
    > don't know that will help.
    >
    > The high quality jpegs from my D70 are very hard to see any squareish
    > artifacts until you zoom wayy the hell in. It's equivalent to about 95%
    > quality & I'm sure your camera is similar. My Olympus C3030 with 3MP
    > typically produced about 700K files so yours is less compression than that
    > at 1,400K for the same number of pixels.
    >
    > RAW files would only be a significant benefit if you planned to do post
    > processing stretching the exposure & contrast but if you got the exposure
    > correct, the jpegs are indeed virtually indistinguishable from anything a
    > RAW file could create. Very subtle differences in the more careful
    > on-computer processing compared to the speed optimized in-camera
    > processing but no big deal. I made hundreds of lovely 8x10 prints from my
    > 3MP 700K images & I'm sure you will also have a lot of fun with this!
    >
    >
    >
    > Gene wrote:
    >
    >> I just purchased a new Canon A510 & really love it.
    >> However, I'm a little confused about file type & size.
    >>
    >> Questions:
    >>
    >> Is there a way to copy the "RAW" file images from the
    >> A510 to my PC hard drive? I use XP Pro to simply "copy" the
    >> JPG images to a folder via a USB cable while running Windows
    >> Explorer. I do not use any Canon, etc. software.
    >> I have no problem copying over the A510 JPG images to my hard drive
    >> and viewing the JPG images on my PC.
    >>
    >> This is a 3.2MP camera. I want to shoot "every" photo at
    >> MAXIMUM quality. Therefore, I set the A510 to 2048x1536
    >> and Superfine - which seems to be the maximum setting possible.
    >> I make this assumption because it creates the largest file size of
    >> all possible settings. I shot ~300 photos in a number
    >> of different locations, lighting, etc. I "assumed" that the camera
    >> would generate ~3MP image file sizes. It does not. The JPG
    >> image sizes ranged from 1010KB to 2705KB. QUESTION:
    >> How do I set this camera to get a 3MP image each & every
    >> shot? Are the RAW images in the camera, or does it do the
    >> JPEG conversion "on-the-fly" , thereby not preserve the
    >> original raw data?
    >>
    >> I did a little test.
    >> I shot three photos under the same conditions.
    >> Photo #1 was 2048x1536 Superfine = 1419BK JPG file
    >> Photo #2 was 2048x1536 Fine = 879BK JPG file
    >> Photo #3 was 2048x1536 Normal = 401BK JPG file
    >>
    >> After blowing-up and comparing the above three JPG images,
    >> I really can't see "any" difference in image quality.
    >> They all look the same to me.
    >>
    >> Here is my conclusion per the above.
    >> To get the BEST quality photos: Set my Canon A510 to
    >> 2048x1536 Superfine and live with the fact that the
    >> A510 converts the raw image data to a JPG file of
    >> varying sizes. Given the settings of 2048x1536 Superfine,
    >> there is nothing else I can do to cause this A510 to
    >> generate an image of more pixels, or a larger JPG
    >> image file. I'm going to get what I get, and I can't save raw
    >> image files to my hard drive.
    >>
    >> THANKS,
    >> Gene
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
     
    Gene, Mar 13, 2005
    #4
  5. Gene

    Gene Guest

    Thanks, Sheldon.

    I'm getting a better grasp of all the features of this little Canon
    A510 3.2MP camera. It's incredible how many scene modes,
    and manual settings available! It's going to take months to try all
    of them out ... and I thought my old Canon SLR 35mm stuff was
    complicated:)

    When the ~ 5MP A530 comes out, I will upgrade to it.

    Gene




    "Sheldon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Don't know much about your camera and RAW images, but regardless of your
    > camera, every JPG image will be a different size based on the image and
    > colors in it. Take a shot of something with lots of colors and detail,
    > and then take a picture of a clear blue sky, or a white sheet of paper.
    > The shot with one color in the entire image will be quite small, as there
    > isn't much data to record.
    >
    > During the compression process the data is basically "make every pixel
    > blue" for the sky, or "make every pixel white" for the sheet of paper.
    > Put a couple of marks on the sheet of paper and the jpg image size will go
    > up a bit.
    >
    >
    > "Gene" <> wrote in message
    > news:vLPYd.205$...
    >>I just purchased a new Canon A510 & really love it.
    >> However, I'm a little confused about file type & size.
    >>
    >> Questions:
    >>
    >> Is there a way to copy the "RAW" file images from the
    >> A510 to my PC hard drive? I use XP Pro to simply "copy" the
    >> JPG images to a folder via a USB cable while running Windows
    >> Explorer. I do not use any Canon, etc. software.
    >> I have no problem copying over the A510 JPG images to my hard drive
    >> and viewing the JPG images on my PC.
    >>
    >> This is a 3.2MP camera. I want to shoot "every" photo at
    >> MAXIMUM quality. Therefore, I set the A510 to 2048x1536
    >> and Superfine - which seems to be the maximum setting possible.
    >> I make this assumption because it creates the largest file size of
    >> all possible settings. I shot ~300 photos in a number
    >> of different locations, lighting, etc. I "assumed" that the camera
    >> would generate ~3MP image file sizes. It does not. The JPG
    >> image sizes ranged from 1010KB to 2705KB. QUESTION:
    >> How do I set this camera to get a 3MP image each & every
    >> shot? Are the RAW images in the camera, or does it do the
    >> JPEG conversion "on-the-fly" , thereby not preserve the
    >> original raw data?
    >>
    >> I did a little test.
    >> I shot three photos under the same conditions.
    >> Photo #1 was 2048x1536 Superfine = 1419BK JPG file
    >> Photo #2 was 2048x1536 Fine = 879BK JPG file
    >> Photo #3 was 2048x1536 Normal = 401BK JPG file
    >>
    >> After blowing-up and comparing the above three JPG images,
    >> I really can't see "any" difference in image quality.
    >> They all look the same to me.
    >>
    >> Here is my conclusion per the above.
    >> To get the BEST quality photos: Set my Canon A510 to
    >> 2048x1536 Superfine and live with the fact that the
    >> A510 converts the raw image data to a JPG file of
    >> varying sizes. Given the settings of 2048x1536 Superfine,
    >> there is nothing else I can do to cause this A510 to
    >> generate an image of more pixels, or a larger JPG
    >> image file. I'm going to get what I get, and I can't save raw
    >> image files to my hard drive.
    >>
    >> THANKS,
    >> Gene
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Gene, Mar 13, 2005
    #5
  6. Gene

    Jim Townsend Guest

    Gene wrote:

    > I just purchased a new Canon A510 & really love it.
    > However, I'm a little confused about file type & size.
    >
    > Questions:
    >
    > Is there a way to copy the "RAW" file images from the
    > A510 to my PC hard drive? I use XP Pro to simply "copy" the
    > JPG images to a folder via a USB cable while running Windows


    The A510 does not save in RAW format. JPEG is all you get.

    > I shot ~300 photos in a number
    > of different locations, lighting, etc. I "assumed" that the camera
    > would generate ~3MP image file sizes. It does not.


    The fact that the prefix 'Mega' is used tends to confuse
    people. Mega is the designator for 1 million and nothing
    more. You can't directly equate pixels to bytes without
    knowing something about the bytes.

    A byte is a unit of storage. In the case of your camera,
    a single byte doesn't contain enough data to represent the
    information in a single pixel. In order to store all the
    information in one pixel, it takes 3 bytes.

    So.. the sensor on your 3 Mp camera captures 9 megabytes of
    information each time you take a picture. (3MP x 3 bytes)

    If your camera could record as uncompressed TIFF, then the
    files would be a bit over 9 Mb each.

    > I did a little test.
    > I shot three photos under the same conditions.
    > Photo #1 was 2048x1536 Superfine = 1419BK JPG file
    > Photo #2 was 2048x1536 Fine = 879BK JPG file
    > Photo #3 was 2048x1536 Normal = 401BK JPG file


    Here's where the confusion lies. JPEG uses a compression
    scheme so the saved file is *much* smaller than the original
    image. You can vary this compression.. Your camera's
    Superfine has the least compression and Normal has the
    most. The whole purpose of compressing the data is to
    save memory card space.

    The compression is lossy. Some color information is
    discarded during the compression. You don't lose any pixels,
    but you do lose subtle color differences. As you've noticed,
    at the compression levels your camera uses, you can't readily
    see the difference so they truly are 'subtle' losses.
    This is why JPEG works and why it's so popular.

    You'll also notice that the file sizes vary even if you
    take them all in Superfine. A shot of the blue sky alone
    will be MUCH smaller than a shot with lots of detail
    like branches and leaves on a tree. This is because the
    solid blue of the sky is easier to compress than the high
    detail in leaves and branches.

    Note that you can apply a lot more compression than your
    camera does to obtain even smaller file sizes, but the data
    loss will become apparent. You'll see banding in large areas
    of solid color and you'll see smudges (called artifacts) in
    areas of bright/dark transition.

    > Here is my conclusion per the above.
    > To get the BEST quality photos: Set my Canon A510 to
    > 2048x1536 Superfine and live with the fact that the
    > A510 converts the raw image data to a JPG file of
    > varying sizes. Given the settings of 2048x1536 Superfine,
    > there is nothing else I can do to cause this A510 to
    > generate an image of more pixels, or a larger JPG
    > image file. I'm going to get what I get, and I can't save raw
    > image files to my hard drive.


    That's correct :)

    Your camera captures 9 Megabytes when you shoot. Depending
    on the level of compression you choose, this 9 Megabytes is
    'shrunk' down to around 1.5MB in Superfine or around 5Kb in
    Normal.

    It's hard to tell by looking at the image when it's the same
    size as your monitor, but the Normal compression level isn't
    as good as Superfine. There is less color information in the
    Normal file, so you should use Superfine all the time.

    A Superfine image is approx 1.5 Mb on disk, but it does 'inflate'
    back to 9 Megabytes when gets uncompressed as it's loaded into your
    computer's memory.

    Note that if you save the image back to disk, the 9 Megabytes
    will be compressed again. The compression this time depends on
    your editing software. The image could be larger or smaller
    depending on the software settings.

    If you choose 'save as' an uncompressed TIFF, then the image
    won't be shrunk when it's saved back to disk and you will
    have a file that's around 9 Megapixels.
     
    Jim Townsend, Mar 13, 2005
    #6
  7. "Gene" <> writes:

    > Now that I have a better understanding of the A510 design, I will
    > probably buy the A530 (replacement for the ~5MP Canon A95)
    > when it ships. We plan to use a HDTV to display the image slide shows,
    > so I "suspect" that a ~5MP camera will produce a much better image -
    > but I have not researched what JPG file size will display best on
    > a large HDTV.


    I suspect you'll be surprised. Isn't the *top* "HD" TV resolution
    something like 1920x768? That's just 1.5 megapixels!
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Mar 13, 2005
    #7
  8. ....
    > I was hoping that there was a way to capture a raw file
    > that had "one" byte per pixel :)


    You'd get one byte per pixel if you camera only recorded 8 bits per sensor.
    Higher end cameras often record 12 bits or 16 bits per pixel. On the other
    hand, perhaps you are thinking of an uncompressed format like TIFF which
    typically gives 3 bytes per pixel (one byte R, G, and B). The obviouse draw
    back is that at 3 bytes per pixel, each image would occupy 9.6 MB. Not
    only does that eat up memory space quickly, but it takes a lot longer to
    write a 9.6MB file to the memory card, versus a 1.4MB file.

    >
    > I waited for two years to buy a new camera, nothing
    > looked good until now. This little 3.2MP Canon A510 is
    > awesome. The more I play with it, the more I like it.
    > It's a replacement for the Canon A75.
    >
    > Now that I have a better understanding of the A510 design, I will
    > probably buy the A530 (replacement for the ~5MP Canon A95)
    > when it ships. We plan to use a HDTV to display the image slide shows,
    > so I "suspect" that a ~5MP camera will produce a much better image -
    > but I have not researched what JPG file size will display best on
    > a large HDTV.
    >
    > Gene

    ....

    Gene, you might want to think about this a little more. HDTV resolution
    is at best something like 1920 x 1080 (and most display far less than
    that).
    1920 x 1080 pixels is .... ta da! about 2 MP. Why would you "suspect" that
    a 5MP cameral image would look better than a 3.2 MP camera image?
    I'm not saying that there won't be differences, but they will be rather
    subtle
    to most people's eyes. The one place where the extra resolution pays off
    is that you will have to crop your 4:3 original to get a 16:9 final output.
    5MP will give more lea-way for cropping.

    Lastly, please let go of the "JPG file size" concerns you seem to have.
    Since
    JPG is a lossy, compressed file format, the size of the file is only a crude
    indicator of the resolution/detail/etc of the image. Resolution matters.
    Amount
    of information lost due to compression matters. When you set your camera
    to its highest resolutiona and least compression, you are getting the best
    images the camera can produce. So, at least you've done that right. }:)

    Another thing to keep in mind, the linear resolution of the image increases
    with the square root of the image size. If you double the resolution, say
    from
    3MP to 6MP, the linear resolution has only increased by a factor of 1.41.
    My guess is that ordinary observers don't really notice much until the
    resolution
    doubles. (Certainly, expert or trained observers will see considerably
    smaller
    increases.) So, if you really want to notice a difference, upgrage from
    your
    3.2MP camera to a 12MP camera. On the other hand, what's the point if
    your planned diplay mechanism is 2MP or less? (Yes, there is some
    advantage to essentially oversampling your picture, but is it worth the
    prices
    you'll pay?)


    --
    Dan (Woj...) [dmaster](no space)[at](no space)[lucent](no space)[dot](no
    space)[com]
    ===============================
    "I want to feel sunlight on my face
    I see the dust cloud disappear
    Without a trace
    I want to take shelter from the poison rain
    Where the streets have no name"
     
    Dan Wojciechowski, Mar 16, 2005
    #8
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