Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest??

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by BD, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. BD

    BD Guest

    Hi, all.

    I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate, I'm just wondering if
    someone's seen info that I have not.

    I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    Canon 7D.

    I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    1) The hardware is producing softer images; and
    2) The DPP / ACR software needed to be updated to better support the
    hardware, and with the latest software the softness issues are
    eliminated.

    I've seen as many discussions (fredmiranda, dpreview) about the
    softness of the sensor as I have about the need for an updated DPP.
    One person says their images are soft, and the next person says this
    softness was completely remedied by using the latest DPP / ACR, or
    Lightroom.

    This *appears* to be settling on the side of those who assert an issue
    with the sensor.

    Am I wrong? I'm wondering if someone knows of a 'silver bullet' which
    conclusively shows that there is not a problem with the sensor, and
    that the issue is the software being used to view the images.

    Thanks...

    BD
    BD, Dec 30, 2009
    #1
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  2. BD

    Rich Guest

    On Dec 30, 12:30 pm, BD <> wrote:
    > Hi, all.
    >
    > I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate, I'm just wondering if
    > someone's seen info that I have not.
    >
    > I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    > Canon 7D.
    >
    > I am finding a couple of different conclusions:
    >
    > 1) The hardware is producing softer images; and
    > 2) The DPP / ACR software needed to be updated to better support the
    > hardware, and with the latest software the softness issues are
    > eliminated.


    Are you sure the problem lies with poor ACR support, rather than
    something like a strong AA filter and it's effect on an 18 megapixel
    sensor? Has anyone ever wondered if the alignment of AA filter with
    the CMOS sensor is more difficult the greater the pixel density? Maybe
    tolerances are simply not tight enough, compared to a 10 megapixel
    sensor? The softness issue (for cameras that came out with higher
    pixel counts than their predecessors) has dogged other companies than
    Canon.
    Rich, Dec 30, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. BD

    BD Guest

    On Dec 30, 12:33 pm, Rich <> wrote:
    > On Dec 30, 12:30 pm, BD <> wrote:
    >
    > > Hi, all.

    >
    > > I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate, I'm just wondering if
    > > someone's seen info that I have not.

    >
    > > I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    > > Canon 7D.

    >
    > > I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    >
    > > 1) The hardware is producing softer images; and
    > > 2) The DPP / ACR software needed to be updated to better support the
    > > hardware, and with the latest software the softness issues are
    > > eliminated.

    >
    > Are you sure the problem lies with poor ACR support, rather than
    > something like a strong AA filter and it's effect on an 18 megapixel
    > sensor?  Has anyone ever wondered if the alignment of AA filter with
    > the CMOS sensor is more difficult the greater the pixel density? Maybe
    > tolerances are simply not tight enough, compared to a 10 megapixel
    > sensor?  The softness issue (for cameras that came out with higher
    > pixel counts than their predecessors) has dogged other companies than
    > Canon.


    Another suggestion was made to me this morning by a vendor: The kind
    of pixel-level sharpness you see in some digitals just doesn't exist
    in the film world. These sensors are perhaps not quite as sharp by
    default in order to better replicate the characteristics of film.
    Additional sharpness can, theoretically, be had by adjusting the
    camera, or in post. The suggestion he made was that the kind of tack-
    sharpness you see in some digitals is less appealing aesthetically.

    I'm not sure I buy that; it's just a perspective I hadn't considered.
    BD, Dec 30, 2009
    #3
  4. BD

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    BD <> wrote:
    >I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate,


    Or start rumors?

    > I'm just wondering if
    >someone's seen info that I have not.
    >
    >I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    >Canon 7D.
    >
    >I am finding a couple of different conclusions:


    So am I.

    You make unfounded allegations, produce no evidence to support those
    allegations, and then pretend to look for an explanation for those
    unfounded allegations.

    [...]
    >Am I wrong?


    Not if you want to be a propaganda minister for some government.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Dec 30, 2009
    #4
  5. BD

    BD Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    On Dec 30, 3:41 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    > BD  <> wrote:
    > >I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate,

    >
    > Or start rumors?
    >
    > > I'm just wondering if
    > >someone's seen info that I have not.

    >
    > >I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    > >Canon 7D.

    >
    > >I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    >
    > So am I.
    >
    > You make unfounded allegations, produce no evidence to support those
    > allegations, and then pretend to look for an explanation for those
    > unfounded allegations.
    >
    > [...]
    >
    > >Am I wrong?

    >
    > Not if you want to be a propaganda minister for some government.
    >
    > --
    > Ray Fischer        
    >  


    Wow. Relax, will you? Claiming to have read something is not exactly
    the same as making allegations, Mensa-bait. See the words I used?
    '*following* assessments'? '*Finding* conclusions? See? First three
    lines of my initial post... go ahead, reread it. I'll wait. Making
    allegations, am I?. Here's one. You're a fool and a troll. I'm looking
    for feedback and get bitch-slapped for it? Mmmmyeahnotsomuch. You want
    citations, and ask me for some without characterizing me in the same
    breath, and I'll be happy to oblige.

    Hell with it - you want a citation? Google "canon 7d soft", pick one
    of the DOZENS of discussions on the topic, and fill your f*cking
    boots.
    BD, Dec 31, 2009
    #5
  6. BD

    ransley Guest

    On Dec 30, 3:16 pm, BD <> wrote:
    > On Dec 30, 12:33 pm, Rich <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Dec 30, 12:30 pm, BD <> wrote:

    >
    > > > Hi, all.

    >
    > > > I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate, I'm just wondering if
    > > > someone's seen info that I have not.

    >
    > > > I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    > > > Canon 7D.

    >
    > > > I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    >
    > > > 1) The hardware is producing softer images; and
    > > > 2) The DPP / ACR software needed to be updated to better support the
    > > > hardware, and with the latest software the softness issues are
    > > > eliminated.

    >
    > > Are you sure the problem lies with poor ACR support, rather than
    > > something like a strong AA filter and it's effect on an 18 megapixel
    > > sensor?  Has anyone ever wondered if the alignment of AA filter with
    > > the CMOS sensor is more difficult the greater the pixel density? Maybe
    > > tolerances are simply not tight enough, compared to a 10 megapixel
    > > sensor?  The softness issue (for cameras that came out with higher
    > > pixel counts than their predecessors) has dogged other companies than
    > > Canon.

    >
    > Another suggestion was made to me this morning by a vendor: The kind
    > of pixel-level sharpness you see in some digitals just doesn't exist
    > in the film world. These sensors are perhaps not quite as sharp by
    > default in order to better replicate the characteristics of film.
    > Additional sharpness can, theoretically, be had by adjusting the
    > camera, or in post. The suggestion he made was that the kind of tack-
    > sharpness you see in some digitals is less appealing aesthetically.
    >
    > I'm not sure I buy that; it's just a perspective I hadn't considered.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Of course a salesman would say that, he wants to sell you the 7d, the
    reviews I have read, and its funny how dpreview doesnt address it say
    to me its the camera and not worth getting.
    ransley, Dec 31, 2009
    #6
  7. BD

    ransley Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    On Dec 30, 5:41 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    > BD  <> wrote:
    > >I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate,

    >
    > Or start rumors?
    >
    > > I'm just wondering if
    > >someone's seen info that I have not.

    >
    > >I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    > >Canon 7D.

    >
    > >I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    >
    > So am I.
    >
    > You make unfounded allegations, produce no evidence to support those
    > allegations, and then pretend to look for an explanation for those
    > unfounded allegations.
    >
    > [...]
    >
    > >Am I wrong?

    >
    > Not if you want to be a propaganda minister for some government.
    >
    > --
    > Ray Fischer        
    >  


    You must be an unhappy canon salesman, Try google, 7dsoft focus,
    7dsoft picture etc etc etc etc , its a well known fact its crap, sure
    the body is great, so what.
    ransley, Dec 31, 2009
    #7
  8. BD

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    BD <> wrote:
    >On Dec 30, 3:41 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    >> BD  <> wrote:
    >> >I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate,

    >>
    >> Or start rumors?
    >>
    >> > I'm just wondering if
    >> >someone's seen info that I have not.

    >>
    >> >I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    >> >Canon 7D.

    >>
    >> >I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    >>
    >> So am I.
    >>
    >> You make unfounded allegations, produce no evidence to support those
    >> allegations, and then pretend to look for an explanation for those
    >> unfounded allegations.
    >>
    >> [...]
    >>
    >> >Am I wrong?

    >>
    >> Not if you want to be a propaganda minister for some government.

    >
    >Wow. Relax, will you? Claiming to have read something is not exactly
    >the same as making allegations, Mensa-bait.


    Yes it is. Want an example?

    I read somewhere that you're paid by Nikon to slander and smear Canon.
    I'm wondering if anyone has seen any information as to how much you
    might be getting paid for that service.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Dec 31, 2009
    #8
  9. BD

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    ransley <> wrote:
    > (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    >> BD  <> wrote:
    >> >I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate,

    >>
    >> Or start rumors?
    >>
    >> > I'm just wondering if
    >> >someone's seen info that I have not.

    >>
    >> >I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    >> >Canon 7D.

    >>
    >> >I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    >>
    >> So am I.
    >>
    >> You make unfounded allegations, produce no evidence to support those
    >> allegations, and then pretend to look for an explanation for those
    >> unfounded allegations.
    >>
    >> [...]
    >>
    >> >Am I wrong?

    >>
    >> Not if you want to be a propaganda minister for some government.

    >
    >You must be an unhappy canon salesman, Try google, 7dsoft focus,


    ANOTHER shill crawls out from under a rock! Or the same one with a
    different userid. And they're both using free and anonymous accounts.
    WHAT a surprise.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Dec 31, 2009
    #9
  10. BD

    Bob AZ Guest

    I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in
    > > the Canon 7D.

    >
    > Can't speak to the 7D but I've never been at all happy with the
    > softness of my Rebel XSi images, despite it's new (then) sharpness
    > filter.
    >

    Jerry

    I have had three Canon DSLRS and each was soft until I set the
    Preferences settings on a menu item. With the 2nd and 3rd one I did
    this before putting them into use. See your manual for further
    information.

    Bob AZ
    Bob AZ, Dec 31, 2009
    #10
  11. BD

    Henry Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:04:21 -0800 (PST), BD <> wrote
    this:

    >Hell with it - you want a citation? Google "canon 7d soft", pick one
    >of the DOZENS of discussions on the topic, and fill your f*cking
    >boots.


    I have and this is what I get;

    Results 1 - 10 of about 9 for 7dsoft focus.
    Not enough to fill a thimble let alone my boots.
    Are you sure you are not inadvertently starting a rumour?

    Henry.
    Henry, Dec 31, 2009
    #11
  12. BD

    NameHere Guest

    On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 09:30:59 -0800 (PST), BD <> wrote:

    >Hi, all.
    >
    >I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate, I'm just wondering if
    >someone's seen info that I have not.
    >
    >I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    >Canon 7D.
    >
    >I am finding a couple of different conclusions:
    >
    >1) The hardware is producing softer images; and
    >2) The DPP / ACR software needed to be updated to better support the
    >hardware, and with the latest software the softness issues are
    >eliminated.
    >
    >I've seen as many discussions (fredmiranda, dpreview) about the
    >softness of the sensor as I have about the need for an updated DPP.
    >One person says their images are soft, and the next person says this
    >softness was completely remedied by using the latest DPP / ACR, or
    >Lightroom.
    >
    >This *appears* to be settling on the side of those who assert an issue
    >with the sensor.
    >
    >Am I wrong? I'm wondering if someone knows of a 'silver bullet' which
    >conclusively shows that there is not a problem with the sensor, and
    >that the issue is the software being used to view the images.
    >
    >Thanks...
    >
    >BD


    Read this:

    http://darwinwiggett.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-canon-7d/

    You'll see how 2 P&S cameras easily out-perform the DSLR.
    NameHere, Dec 31, 2009
    #12
  13. BD

    BD Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?


    > Are you sure you are not inadvertently starting a rumour?


    Not deliberately...

    This article is probably worth at least a cursory scan. It discusses
    diffraction at higher stops, differences in AA filtering of this
    model, and software versioning differences. But, it looks like this
    guy isn't making his RAWs available for public scrutiny, which kind of
    hurts his credibility a bit. Could well be that *he's* biased against
    this model, and has stirred up a bit of a ruckus with his review.

    http://darwinwiggett.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-canon-7d/

    And here's a follow-up to that review, in which the author of the
    above article is criticized for his process, and the same image is
    processed as he appears to have done it, and then in a different way -
    which drastically affects the final output.

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/809801/136#7765183

    So whatever... as always, mileage may vary.
    BD, Dec 31, 2009
    #13
  14. BD

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    BD <> wrote:
    >
    >> Are you sure you are not inadvertently starting a rumour?

    >
    >Not deliberately...
    >
    >This article is probably worth at least a cursory scan. It discusses
    >diffraction at higher stops, differences in AA filtering of this
    >model, and software versioning differences. But, it looks like this
    >guy isn't making his RAWs available for public scrutiny, which kind of
    >hurts his credibility a bit. Could well be that *he's* biased against
    >this model, and has stirred up a bit of a ruckus with his review.
    >
    >http://darwinwiggett.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-canon-7d/


    It's interesting that he's using a manual focus tilt-shift lens.
    Plenty of opportunity for personal bias to creep in. Plenty of
    opportunity for "odd" settings to bias the results.

    >And here's a follow-up to that review, in which the author of the
    >above article is criticized for his process, and the same image is
    >processed as he appears to have done it, and then in a different way -
    >which drastically affects the final output.
    >
    >http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/809801/136#7765183


    The first poster is incorrect in that the AF microadjust is not a
    factor since it's not an autofocus lens. But it is interesting that
    he got such dramatically better results.

    For me it doesn't pass the smell test.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Dec 31, 2009
    #14
  15. BD

    ransley Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    On Dec 30, 8:51 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    > ransley  <> wrote:
    > > (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    > >> BD  <> wrote:
    > >> >I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate,

    >
    > >> Or start rumors?

    >
    > >> > I'm just wondering if
    > >> >someone's seen info that I have not.

    >
    > >> >I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    > >> >Canon 7D.

    >
    > >> >I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    >
    > >> So am I.

    >
    > >> You make unfounded allegations, produce no evidence to support those
    > >> allegations, and then pretend to look for an explanation for those
    > >> unfounded allegations.

    >
    > >> [...]

    >
    > >> >Am I wrong?

    >
    > >> Not if you want to be a propaganda minister for some government.

    >
    > >You must be an unhappy canon salesman, Try google, 7dsoft focus,

    >
    > ANOTHER shill crawls out from under a rock!  Or the same one with a
    > different userid.  And they're both using free and anonymous accounts.
    > WHAT a surprise.
    >
    > --
    > Ray Fischer        
    >  - Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Hey dumbass ray, is google broke, or dont you know how do a google and
    read reviews, I own alot of Canon stuff, actualy all Canon for 25
    years, but the 7d is one product I wont miss never getting, it doesnt
    even out perform my new T1i in sharpness and the T1i is 2/3rds
    cheaper. You are the shill or a real moron to to not know the facts of
    the 7Ds softness, quality is a 5D the 7D was a rushed mistake.
    ransley, Dec 31, 2009
    #15
  16. BD

    BD Guest

    BD, Dec 31, 2009
    #16
  17. BD

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the disinformation??

    BD <> wrote:
    >> I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate, I'm just wondering if
    >> someone's seen info that I have not.

    >
    >Here is another article which suggests that it's not the sensor that's


    Oooo! "Suggests"!

    Excellect propaganda!

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Dec 31, 2009
    #17
  18. BD

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    ransley <> wrote:
    >On Dec 30, 8:51 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    >> ransley  <> wrote:
    >> > (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    >> >> BD  <> wrote:
    >> >> >I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate,

    >>
    >> >> Or start rumors?

    >>
    >> >> > I'm just wondering if
    >> >> >someone's seen info that I have not.

    >>
    >> >> >I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    >> >> >Canon 7D.

    >>
    >> >> >I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    >>
    >> >> So am I.

    >>
    >> >> You make unfounded allegations, produce no evidence to support those
    >> >> allegations, and then pretend to look for an explanation for those
    >> >> unfounded allegations.

    >>
    >> >> [...]

    >>
    >> >> >Am I wrong?

    >>
    >> >> Not if you want to be a propaganda minister for some government.

    >>
    >> >You must be an unhappy canon salesman, Try google, 7dsoft focus,

    >>
    >> ANOTHER shill crawls out from under a rock!  Or the same one with a
    >> different userid.  And they're both using free and anonymous accounts.
    >> WHAT a surprise.

    >
    >Hey dumbass ray, is google broke, or dont you know how do a google and


    You can use existing email addresses but all of your post's headers
    show that you're a forger.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Dec 31, 2009
    #18
  19. BD

    ransley Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    On Dec 31, 9:23 am, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    > ransley  <> wrote:
    > >On Dec 30, 8:51 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    > >> ransley  <> wrote:
    > >> > (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    > >> >> BD  <> wrote:
    > >> >> >I'm not looking to start (restart) a big debate,

    >
    > >> >> Or start rumors?

    >
    > >> >> > I'm just wondering if
    > >> >> >someone's seen info that I have not.

    >
    > >> >> >I've been following the assessments of the sharpness/softness in the
    > >> >> >Canon 7D.

    >
    > >> >> >I am finding a couple of different conclusions:

    >
    > >> >> So am I.

    >
    > >> >> You make unfounded allegations, produce no evidence to support those
    > >> >> allegations, and then pretend to look for an explanation for those
    > >> >> unfounded allegations.

    >
    > >> >> [...]

    >
    > >> >> >Am I wrong?

    >
    > >> >> Not if you want to be a propaganda minister for some government.

    >
    > >> >You must be an unhappy canon salesman, Try google, 7dsoft focus,

    >
    > >> ANOTHER shill crawls out from under a rock!  Or the same one with a
    > >> different userid.  And they're both using free and anonymous accounts.
    > >> WHAT a surprise.

    >
    > >Hey dumbass ray, is google broke, or dont you know how do a google and

    >
    > You can use existing email addresses but all of your post's headers
    > show that you're a forger.
    >
    > --
    > Ray Fischer        
    >  - Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Your statement Proves you dont know squat.
    ransley, Dec 31, 2009
    #19
  20. BD

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Re: Canon 7D and softness - what's the latest disinformation?

    ransley <> wrote:
    >On Dec 30, 8:51 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
    >> ransley  <> wrote:
    >> > (Ray Fischer) wrote:


    >> >> Not if you want to be a propaganda minister for some government.

    >>
    >> >You must be an unhappy canon salesman, Try google, 7dsoft focus,

    >>
    >> ANOTHER shill crawls out from under a rock!  Or the same one with a
    >> different userid.  And they're both using free and anonymous accounts.
    >> WHAT a surprise.

    >
    >Hey dumbass ray, is google broke, or dont you know how do a google and


    Ya know, asshole, when you steal someone's email address to post a
    forgery, it's pretty damn stupid of you to post the message using
    Google and from the same machine as your original post.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Dec 31, 2009
    #20
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