Candid shots of people.

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Peter Jason, Dec 15, 2006.

  1. Peter Jason

    Peter Jason Guest

    Are there any techniques for taking photos of
    people without them knowing?

    Are there special cameras to help with this?

    Any refs?
     
    Peter Jason, Dec 15, 2006
    #1
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  2. Peter Jason

    Chuck Guest

    It sort of depends on who and where and what circumstances.
    You might need to practice running away, or have escape transportation
    available, and figure out various protect the camera methods.
    Also remember to have a credit card and some cash.

    I used to setup on an object to one side or the other, then turn and shoot.

    "Peter Jason" <> wrote in message
    news:elt0sn$2jdd$...
    > Are there any techniques for taking photos of
    > people without them knowing?
    >
    > Are there special cameras to help with this?
    >
    > Any refs?
    >
    >
     
    Chuck, Dec 15, 2006
    #2
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  3. Peter Jason wrote:
    > Are there any techniques for taking photos of
    > people without them knowing?
    >
    > Are there special cameras to help with this?
    >
    > Any refs?


    My advice is to do it with a telephoto lens. Preferably a long one. ;)
     
    Michael Johnson, PE, Dec 15, 2006
    #3
  4. Peter Jason

    Peter Jason Guest

    "Chuck" <> wrote in
    message
    news:nPngh.12462$...
    > It sort of depends on who and where and
    > what circumstances.
    > You might need to practice running away, or
    > have escape transportation
    > available, and figure out various protect
    > the camera methods.
    > Also remember to have a credit card and
    > some cash.
    >
    > I used to setup on an object to one side or
    > the other, then turn and shoot.
    >
    > "Peter Jason" <> wrote in
    > message
    > news:elt0sn$2jdd$...
    >> Are there any techniques for taking photos
    >> of
    >> people without them knowing?
    >>
    >> Are there special cameras to help with
    >> this?
    >>
    >> Any refs?


    I was thinking to photograph people in town
    and recording all the various fashions of the
    day.

    But people get uptight when a camera points
    at them.

    I can lurk in front of the setting sun and
    photograph them, but this is restricting.

    I was thinking of some setup where a camera
    lens could sit on one's lapel, and all the
    other electronic guts could be sequestered
    away in the pocket, to be triggered when a
    good shot presents itself.

    I have a wide-angle 7-14 lens, so it might be
    possible to stash this in a briefcase with a
    discreet opening, and with a trigger of some
    sort in the handle.
     
    Peter Jason, Dec 15, 2006
    #4
  5. Peter Jason

    Guest

    , Dec 15, 2006
    #5
  6. Peter Jason

    Peter Jason Guest

    Peter Jason, Dec 15, 2006
    #6
  7. Peter Jason <> wrote:

    : "Chuck" <> wrote in
    : message
    : news:nPngh.12462$...
    : > It sort of depends on who and where and
    : > what circumstances.
    : > You might need to practice running away, or
    : > have escape transportation
    : > available, and figure out various protect
    : > the camera methods.
    : > Also remember to have a credit card and
    : > some cash.
    : >
    : > I used to setup on an object to one side or
    : > the other, then turn and shoot.
    : >
    : > "Peter Jason" <> wrote in
    : > message
    : > news:elt0sn$2jdd$...
    : >> Are there any techniques for taking photos
    : >> of
    : >> people without them knowing?
    : >>
    : >> Are there special cameras to help with
    : >> this?
    : >>
    : >> Any refs?

    : I was thinking to photograph people in town
    : and recording all the various fashions of the
    : day.

    : But people get uptight when a camera points
    : at them.

    : I can lurk in front of the setting sun and
    : photograph them, but this is restricting.

    : I was thinking of some setup where a camera
    : lens could sit on one's lapel, and all the
    : other electronic guts could be sequestered
    : away in the pocket, to be triggered when a
    : good shot presents itself.

    : I have a wide-angle 7-14 lens, so it might be
    : possible to stash this in a briefcase with a
    : discreet opening, and with a trigger of some
    : sort in the handle.

    First I will say that intient is very important. What you state above
    seems to be legit. But there are those who use "hidden camera" techniques
    in irresponsable or illegal ways and these people give the rest of us a
    bad name. And if for some reason someone notices you taking photos and
    requests that you NOT take their photo, please acceed to the request with
    a smile. And as a responsable photographer it is up to us to try to police
    ourselves so that the irresponsable few don't make our hobby even more
    restricted than it already is. (nuf said)

    Now you mention that you have a good wide angle lens and are not opposed
    to "general area aim, and shoot" photos. I find that the "tension" that
    you mention is most prevalent when the camera is held at eye level or if
    the photog is paying attention to the camera (looking down at a tilted
    screen, etc). But if the camera is just hanging from the strap and you are
    just resting your hand on the hanging camera, and you are just looking
    around, not obviously watching your subject, you can snap off shots
    without most people noticing. Don't try to hide the camera, but with
    practice it is fairly easy to "shoot from the hip" without any obvious
    fiddling with the camera. In fact if your camera will accept a wired
    remote you could have the remote and your hand in a pocket and do the
    aiming with your belly. With a wide angle lens, auto everything, and a lot
    of practice, it is actually rather easy to take photos when it doesn't
    look like you are even contemplating using your camera. Also resist the
    impulse to snatch the camera up to see if you got the shot. Such behavior
    will alert everyone in the area that your camera is doing anything other
    than hanging from your neck. Also don't be afraid to snap off multiple
    exposures of each subject. Just turn your body toward the subject, turn
    your head to look away from your subject and "click". Or you could turn
    your head, and then as if visually scanning the crowd, turn your head the
    other way. As you head passes the subject you can check the subject
    placement and snap several shots, while your head continues to turn away
    from the subject. Think magician. Misdirection can do wonders.

    BTW, remember that many wide angle lenses reach infinity at about 8 to 10
    ft and so if you choose subjects at or beyond that distance you can
    manually set your camera at infinity and you won't have to wait for the
    autofocus to do its thing.

    One other thing. You notice at the beginning I said NOT to hide the
    camera. No matter how well you think you have hidden it, there is a good
    chance that someone will spot it. And if a hidden camera is spotted it may
    not only make your subjects tense up, they may even become violent (it's
    happened). But a camera hanging in full view but not obviously in use will
    generally be ignored as an unimportant item.

    Randy

    ==========
    Randy Berbaum
    Champaign, IL
     
    Randy Berbaum, Dec 15, 2006
    #7
  8. Peter Jason

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Peter Jason wrote:
    > Are there any techniques for taking photos of
    > people without them knowing?
    >
    > Are there special cameras to help with this?
    >
    > Any refs?
    >
    >

    Sure. First is forget flash exists. People tend to notice. Grin.
    I used to use a Minox B, which was small enough that I got pictures of
    people from 3 feet away without them realizing I was taking a picture.
    Generally, go for a small camera with a clear viewfinder, shut off the
    flash, and have everything set up before you move the camera into
    position. You can't dawdle, you must aim and shoot before then have
    time to change expression, or otherwise react.
     
    Ron Hunter, Dec 15, 2006
    #8
  9. Peter Jason

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Peter Jason wrote:
    > "Chuck" <> wrote in
    > message
    > news:nPngh.12462$...
    >> It sort of depends on who and where and
    >> what circumstances.
    >> You might need to practice running away, or
    >> have escape transportation
    >> available, and figure out various protect
    >> the camera methods.
    >> Also remember to have a credit card and
    >> some cash.
    >>
    >> I used to setup on an object to one side or
    >> the other, then turn and shoot.
    >>
    >> "Peter Jason" <> wrote in
    >> message
    >> news:elt0sn$2jdd$...
    >>> Are there any techniques for taking photos
    >>> of
    >>> people without them knowing?
    >>>
    >>> Are there special cameras to help with
    >>> this?
    >>>
    >>> Any refs?

    >
    > I was thinking to photograph people in town
    > and recording all the various fashions of the
    > day.
    >
    > But people get uptight when a camera points
    > at them.
    >
    > I can lurk in front of the setting sun and
    > photograph them, but this is restricting.
    >
    > I was thinking of some setup where a camera
    > lens could sit on one's lapel, and all the
    > other electronic guts could be sequestered
    > away in the pocket, to be triggered when a
    > good shot presents itself.
    >
    > I have a wide-angle 7-14 lens, so it might be
    > possible to stash this in a briefcase with a
    > discreet opening, and with a trigger of some
    > sort in the handle.
    >
    >
    >

    Ahhh, now we understand. You are going for 'upskirts'. A whole other
    specialty.
     
    Ron Hunter, Dec 15, 2006
    #9
  10. "Peter Jason" <> wrote in message
    news:elt0sn$2jdd$...
    > Are there any techniques for taking photos of people without them knowing?
    >
    > Are there special cameras to help with this?
    >
    > Any refs?

    I have a Panasonic FZ30 which has a 12 power zoom at 8 MP. If the resolution
    is lowered to 3 MP the zoom becomes 19 power, instead of 12. With image
    stabilization, it's perfect for wildlife, but I think it would work great
    for taking any candid shots, especially if you used the LCD, instead of the
    viewfinder.

    Hope this helps.

    Ropert Cunningham
     
    Robert A. Cunningham, Dec 15, 2006
    #10
  11. "Peter Jason" <> wrote in message
    news:elt0sn$2jdd$...

    > Are there any techniques for taking photos of people without them knowing?
    >
    > Are there special cameras to help with this?
    >
    > Any refs?


    I'd say the best advice is to forget zooms altogether and choose a prime, as
    they are much smaller for what they do. A photographer with a zoom will
    draw attention to himself, (people have said the nikkor 70-200/2.8 actually
    looks like a rocket launcher, but even a kit zoom can look intimidating) but
    a prime can make your camera really small and light overall.

    cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk
     
    Adrian Boliston, Dec 15, 2006
    #11
  12. Peter Jason

    ASAAR Guest

    On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 04:36:04 -0800, Robert A. Cunningham wrote:

    >> Are there any techniques for taking photos of people without them knowing?
    >>
    >> Are there special cameras to help with this?
    >>
    >> Any refs?

    >
    > I have a Panasonic FZ30 which has a 12 power zoom at 8 MP. If the resolution
    > is lowered to 3 MP the zoom becomes 19 power, instead of 12. With image
    > stabilization, it's perfect for wildlife, but I think it would work great
    > for taking any candid shots, especially if you used the LCD, instead of the
    > viewfinder.


    Lowering the resolution to 3mp doesn't really help unless it's to
    save memory card space. All it offers is what you'd get if you used
    computer software to crop a 3mp section of the normal 8mp image.
    The apparent magnification of that 3mp crop would be the square root
    of 8mp / 3mp, and the square root of 2.667 is 1.633. Multiply the
    lens's 12 zoom ratio by 1.633 and you get a 19.6 zoom ratio, which
    seems to be what the FZ30 is doing. But in so doing, isn't it also
    throwing away the surrounding 5mp's worth of image context?

    That extra 5mp could be very useful for candid shots as the OP
    described a shooting technique where a viewfinder or LCD display
    wouldn't be used, and the camera would be vaguely pointed in the
    general vicinity of the subject. Then if you later found that the
    subject wasn't accurately framed, the 3mp image you wanted to get
    might still be completely within the 8mp image. But if you set the
    FZ30 to this 3mp/19x setting instead, the subject would probably be
    truncated if the camera was pointed just as inaccurately.
     
    ASAAR, Dec 15, 2006
    #12
  13. Peter Jason

    Peter Jason Guest

    "Randy Berbaum"
    <> wrote in
    message
    news:eltnaj$v0j$...
    > Peter Jason <> wrote:
    >
    > : "Chuck" <> wrote in
    > : message
    > : news:nPngh.12462$...
    > : > It sort of depends on who and where and
    > : > what circumstances.
    > : > You might need to practice running
    > away, or
    > : > have escape transportation
    > : > available, and figure out various
    > protect
    > : > the camera methods.
    > : > Also remember to have a credit card and
    > : > some cash.
    > : >
    > : > I used to setup on an object to one
    > side or
    > : > the other, then turn and shoot.
    > : >
    > : > "Peter Jason" <> wrote in
    > : > message
    > : >
    > news:elt0sn$2jdd$...
    > : >> Are there any techniques for taking
    > photos
    > : >> of
    > : >> people without them knowing?
    > : >>
    > : >> Are there special cameras to help with
    > : >> this?
    > : >>
    > : >> Any refs?
    >
    > : I was thinking to photograph people in
    > town
    > : and recording all the various fashions of
    > the
    > : day.
    >
    > : But people get uptight when a camera
    > points
    > : at them.
    >
    > : I can lurk in front of the setting sun
    > and
    > : photograph them, but this is restricting.
    >
    > : I was thinking of some setup where a
    > camera
    > : lens could sit on one's lapel, and all
    > the
    > : other electronic guts could be
    > sequestered
    > : away in the pocket, to be triggered when
    > a
    > : good shot presents itself.
    >
    > : I have a wide-angle 7-14 lens, so it
    > might be
    > : possible to stash this in a briefcase
    > with a
    > : discreet opening, and with a trigger of
    > some
    > : sort in the handle.
    >
    > First I will say that intient is very
    > important. What you state above
    > seems to be legit. But there are those who
    > use "hidden camera" techniques
    > in irresponsable or illegal ways and these
    > people give the rest of us a
    > bad name. And if for some reason someone
    > notices you taking photos and
    > requests that you NOT take their photo,
    > please acceed to the request with
    > a smile. And as a responsable photographer
    > it is up to us to try to police
    > ourselves so that the irresponsable few
    > don't make our hobby even more
    > restricted than it already is. (nuf said)
    >
    > Now you mention that you have a good wide
    > angle lens and are not opposed
    > to "general area aim, and shoot" photos. I
    > find that the "tension" that
    > you mention is most prevalent when the
    > camera is held at eye level or if
    > the photog is paying attention to the
    > camera (looking down at a tilted
    > screen, etc). But if the camera is just
    > hanging from the strap and you are
    > just resting your hand on the hanging
    > camera, and you are just looking
    > around, not obviously watching your
    > subject, you can snap off shots
    > without most people noticing. Don't try to
    > hide the camera, but with
    > practice it is fairly easy to "shoot from
    > the hip" without any obvious
    > fiddling with the camera. In fact if your
    > camera will accept a wired
    > remote you could have the remote and your
    > hand in a pocket and do the
    > aiming with your belly. With a wide angle
    > lens, auto everything, and a lot
    > of practice, it is actually rather easy to
    > take photos when it doesn't
    > look like you are even contemplating using
    > your camera. Also resist the
    > impulse to snatch the camera up to see if
    > you got the shot. Such behavior
    > will alert everyone in the area that your
    > camera is doing anything other
    > than hanging from your neck. Also don't be
    > afraid to snap off multiple
    > exposures of each subject. Just turn your
    > body toward the subject, turn
    > your head to look away from your subject
    > and "click". Or you could turn
    > your head, and then as if visually scanning
    > the crowd, turn your head the
    > other way. As you head passes the subject
    > you can check the subject
    > placement and snap several shots, while
    > your head continues to turn away
    > from the subject. Think magician.
    > Misdirection can do wonders.
    >
    > BTW, remember that many wide angle lenses
    > reach infinity at about 8 to 10
    > ft and so if you choose subjects at or
    > beyond that distance you can
    > manually set your camera at infinity and
    > you won't have to wait for the
    > autofocus to do its thing.
    >
    > One other thing. You notice at the
    > beginning I said NOT to hide the
    > camera. No matter how well you think you
    > have hidden it, there is a good
    > chance that someone will spot it. And if a
    > hidden camera is spotted it may
    > not only make your subjects tense up, they
    > may even become violent (it's
    > happened). But a camera hanging in full
    > view but not obviously in use will
    > generally be ignored as an unimportant
    > item.
    >
    > Randy
    >
    > ==========
    > Randy Berbaum
    > Champaign, IL



    Many thanks for the advice and I'll give this
    a try over the holidays. Come to think of
    it, I have the remote shutter release (looks
    like a car central-locking remote) with the
    camera, and this should further disguise
    operations.
    Guess I'll have to buy a trendy shoulder
    strap.
    Regards.
     
    Peter Jason, Dec 15, 2006
    #13
  14. Peter Jason <> wrote:

    : Many thanks for the advice and I'll give this
    : a try over the holidays. Come to think of
    : it, I have the remote shutter release (looks
    : like a car central-locking remote) with the
    : camera, and this should further disguise
    : operations.
    : Guess I'll have to buy a trendy shoulder
    : strap.
    : Regards.

    Your shutter release may not work for this use. If it uses radio waves or
    has a wire to trigger the camera, you are ok. But a majority of remotes
    these days use IR (like your TV remote) and only works from infront of the
    camera and only if there is nothing blocking the invisible light beam from
    the remote to the camera. So an IR wireless remote in your pocket behind
    the camera would not be able to trigger the camera. But some camera have
    the option of a wired remote. In this case a wire running from the camera
    into your pocket would allow the remote to work from any position.

    Randy

    ==========
    Randy Berbaum
    Champaign, IL
     
    Randy Berbaum, Dec 16, 2006
    #14
  15. "ASAAR" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 04:36:04 -0800, Robert A. Cunningham wrote:
    >
    >>> Are there any techniques for taking photos of people without them
    >>> knowing?
    >>>
    >>> Are there special cameras to help with this?
    >>>
    >>> Any refs?

    >>
    >> I have a Panasonic FZ30 which has a 12 power zoom at 8 MP. If the
    >> resolution
    >> is lowered to 3 MP the zoom becomes 19 power, instead of 12. With image
    >> stabilization, it's perfect for wildlife, but I think it would work great
    >> for taking any candid shots, especially if you used the LCD, instead of
    >> the
    >> viewfinder.

    >
    > Lowering the resolution to 3mp doesn't really help unless it's to
    > save memory card space. All it offers is what you'd get if you used
    > computer software to crop a 3mp section of the normal 8mp image.
    > The apparent magnification of that 3mp crop would be the square root
    > of 8mp / 3mp, and the square root of 2.667 is 1.633. Multiply the
    > lens's 12 zoom ratio by 1.633 and you get a 19.6 zoom ratio, which
    > seems to be what the FZ30 is doing. But in so doing, isn't it also
    > throwing away the surrounding 5mp's worth of image context?
    >
    > That extra 5mp could be very useful for candid shots as the OP
    > described a shooting technique where a viewfinder or LCD display
    > wouldn't be used, and the camera would be vaguely pointed in the
    > general vicinity of the subject. Then if you later found that the
    > subject wasn't accurately framed, the 3mp image you wanted to get
    > might still be completely within the 8mp image. But if you set the
    > FZ30 to this 3mp/19x setting instead, the subject would probably be
    > truncated if the camera was pointed just as inaccurately.


    Lowering the resolution changes the zoom to 19.1 max zoom. The original post
    mentioned nothing about not looking at the viewfinder or LCD. It just said
    "Are there any techniques for taking photos of people without them knowing?"
    With a 19.1 max zoom it is extremely easy to take photos of people with them
    knowing. Especially, since the FZ30's zoom lens does not move in or out as
    you zoom; it is stationary. If you use the viewfinder or the LCD it is
    assumed you would adjust the lens to capture all of the image you want to
    capture.
    >
     
    Robert A. Cunningham, Dec 16, 2006
    #15
  16. "Peter Jason" <> wrote in message news:elt8oj$2lcu$...
    > I was thinking to photograph people in town and recording all the various fashions of the day.
    >
    > But people get uptight when a camera points at them.
    >
    > I can lurk in front of the setting sun and photograph them, but this is restricting.
    >
    > I was thinking of some setup where a camera lens could sit on one's lapel, and all the other electronic guts could be sequestered
    > away in the pocket, to be triggered when a good shot presents itself.
    >
    > I have a wide-angle 7-14 lens, so it might be possible to stash this in a briefcase with a discreet opening, and with a trigger of
    > some sort in the handle.


    I'm rather shy about photographing people (and asking
    for permission). My solution - use a wide angle close
    in, pointed a bit off axis, and pretend to be paying
    attention to something in the distance instead of the
    person nearly in front of me. It has always worked
    for me (just be careful to have something behind the
    person that makes sense to shoot...;-).
    --
    David Ruether


    http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
     
    David Ruether, Dec 16, 2006
    #16
  17. Peter Jason

    ASAAR Guest

    On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:11:43 -0800, Robert A. Cunningham wrote:

    >> That extra 5mp could be very useful for candid shots as the OP
    >> described a shooting technique where a viewfinder or LCD display
    >> wouldn't be used, and the camera would be vaguely pointed in the
    >> general vicinity of the subject. Then if you later found that the
    >> subject wasn't accurately framed, the 3mp image you wanted to get
    >> might still be completely within the 8mp image. But if you set the
    >> FZ30 to this 3mp/19x setting instead, the subject would probably be
    >> truncated if the camera was pointed just as inaccurately.

    >
    > Lowering the resolution changes the zoom to 19.1 max zoom. The original post
    > mentioned nothing about not looking at the viewfinder or LCD. It just said
    > "Are there any techniques for taking photos of people without them knowing?"
    > With a 19.1 max zoom it is extremely easy to take photos of people with them
    > knowing. Especially, since the FZ30's zoom lens does not move in or out as
    > you zoom; it is stationary. If you use the viewfinder or the LCD it is
    > assumed you would adjust the lens to capture all of the image you want to
    > capture.


    Of course the OP didn't say anything about not using the
    viewfinder or LCD. But if one doesn't want people knowing that
    their picture is being taken, one would not want to advertise that
    they are taking a picture, and not using the viewfinder or LCD would
    make it easier to disguise the taking of pictures. The OP
    specifically did *not* inquire about shooting wildlife, where a
    greater focal length might be useful. You evidently missed my
    point, which is that the FZ30's resolution lowering method of
    getting 19x out of a 12x lens isn't actually doing anything except
    cropping the center portion of the sensor's image in the camera
    instead of in the computer. As I said, the *only* advantage this
    would give you is if it also produced much smaller image files,
    allowing you to get more images on the camera's memory card. But it
    would do so by throwing away most of the image falling on the
    sensor. That might not be a great loss if you're framing the
    wildlife image using the LCD or viewfinder. But it wouldn't be of
    any help for the OP's candid shots, because it's not actually
    providing any greater image magnification than if the lens's normal
    maximum 12x range is used. So if you think that the pseudo "19x"
    zoom would allow the candid photographer to get farther from the
    subject than if the regular 12x zoom was used, you're mistaken. It
    wouldn't even give you greater magnification for shooting wildlife
    at a distance. It's only electronically cropping the image in the
    camera, giving the false appearance of greater magnification.
     
    ASAAR, Dec 16, 2006
    #17
  18. Peter Jason

    John Turco Guest

    Ron Hunter wrote:
    >
    > Peter Jason wrote:


    <edited, for brevity>

    > > I have a wide-angle 7-14 lens, so it might be
    > > possible to stash this in a briefcase with a
    > > discreet opening, and with a trigger of some
    > > sort in the handle.
    > >
    > >
    > >

    > Ahhh, now we understand. You are going for 'upskirts'. A whole other
    > specialty.



    Hello, Ron:

    You're incorrigible. ;-)


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Dec 17, 2006
    #18
  19. "ASAAR" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:11:43 -0800, Robert A. Cunningham wrote:
    >
    >>> That extra 5mp could be very useful for candid shots as the OP
    >>> described a shooting technique where a viewfinder or LCD display
    >>> wouldn't be used, and the camera would be vaguely pointed in the
    >>> general vicinity of the subject. Then if you later found that the
    >>> subject wasn't accurately framed, the 3mp image you wanted to get
    >>> might still be completely within the 8mp image. But if you set the
    >>> FZ30 to this 3mp/19x setting instead, the subject would probably be
    >>> truncated if the camera was pointed just as inaccurately.

    >>
    >> Lowering the resolution changes the zoom to 19.1 max zoom. The original
    >> post
    >> mentioned nothing about not looking at the viewfinder or LCD. It just
    >> said
    >> "Are there any techniques for taking photos of people without them
    >> knowing?"
    >> With a 19.1 max zoom it is extremely easy to take photos of people with
    >> them
    >> knowing. Especially, since the FZ30's zoom lens does not move in or out
    >> as
    >> you zoom; it is stationary. If you use the viewfinder or the LCD it is
    >> assumed you would adjust the lens to capture all of the image you want to
    >> capture.

    >
    > Of course the OP didn't say anything about not using the
    > viewfinder or LCD. But if one doesn't want people knowing that
    > their picture is being taken, one would not want to advertise that
    > they are taking a picture, and not using the viewfinder or LCD would
    > make it easier to disguise the taking of pictures. The OP
    > specifically did *not* inquire about shooting wildlife, where a
    > greater focal length might be useful. You evidently missed my
    > point, which is that the FZ30's resolution lowering method of
    > getting 19x out of a 12x lens isn't actually doing anything except
    > cropping the center portion of the sensor's image in the camera
    > instead of in the computer. As I said, the *only* advantage this
    > would give you is if it also produced much smaller image files,
    > allowing you to get more images on the camera's memory card. But it
    > would do so by throwing away most of the image falling on the
    > sensor. That might not be a great loss if you're framing the
    > wildlife image using the LCD or viewfinder. But it wouldn't be of
    > any help for the OP's candid shots, because it's not actually
    > providing any greater image magnification than if the lens's normal
    > maximum 12x range is used. So if you think that the pseudo "19x"
    > zoom would allow the candid photographer to get farther from the
    > subject than if the regular 12x zoom was used, you're mistaken. It
    > wouldn't even give you greater magnification for shooting wildlife
    > at a distance. It's only electronically cropping the image in the
    > camera, giving the false appearance of greater magnification.


    At 12X the lens is 420 MM, as 19.1 it is 668 MM. You can call it whatever
    you want, but when the lens is set to 19.1X there is greater magnification,
    but less field of vision. If you don't believe you can go to the below link
    and check it out for yourself:

    http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/lumix/fz30/leica.html
     
    Robert A. Cunningham, Dec 17, 2006
    #19
  20. Peter Jason

    ASAAR Guest

    On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:16:09 -0800, Robert A. Cunningham wrote:

    >> Of course the OP didn't say anything about not using the
    >> viewfinder or LCD. But if one doesn't want people knowing that
    >> their picture is being taken, one would not want to advertise that
    >> they are taking a picture, and not using the viewfinder or LCD would
    >> make it easier to disguise the taking of pictures. The OP
    >> specifically did *not* inquire about shooting wildlife, where a
    >> greater focal length might be useful. You evidently missed my
    >> point, which is that the FZ30's resolution lowering method of
    >> getting 19x out of a 12x lens isn't actually doing anything except
    >> cropping the center portion of the sensor's image in the camera
    >> instead of in the computer. As I said, the *only* advantage this
    >> would give you is if it also produced much smaller image files,
    >> allowing you to get more images on the camera's memory card. But it
    >> would do so by throwing away most of the image falling on the
    >> sensor. That might not be a great loss if you're framing the
    >> wildlife image using the LCD or viewfinder. But it wouldn't be of
    >> any help for the OP's candid shots, because it's not actually
    >> providing any greater image magnification than if the lens's normal
    >> maximum 12x range is used. So if you think that the pseudo "19x"
    >> zoom would allow the candid photographer to get farther from the
    >> subject than if the regular 12x zoom was used, you're mistaken. It
    >> wouldn't even give you greater magnification for shooting wildlife
    >> at a distance. It's only electronically cropping the image in the
    >> camera, giving the false appearance of greater magnification.

    >
    > At 12X the lens is 420 MM, as 19.1 it is 668 MM. You can call it whatever
    > you want, but when the lens is set to 19.1X there is greater magnification,
    > but less field of vision. If you don't believe you can go to the below link
    > and check it out for yourself:
    >
    > http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/lumix/fz30/leica.html


    Sorry, Robert, but you still don't understand. Yes, you're
    getting 19x from the FZ30, but try to figure out what Panasonic is
    doing to get that 19x. It's not the lens that's doing it, but the
    camera's electronics. It's simply cropping the image the same way
    you could do it in software with a photo editor.

    Look at it this way. Suppose Panasonic makes a camera with a
    square 9mp sensor and it has a 30mm - 300mm 10x zoom lens. You can
    take a picture of a 3x3 checkerboard that completely fills the
    frame. The checkerboard is made up of 9 squares, each one captured
    by one million of the sensor's pixels. Using a photo editor, take
    that 3x3 image and crop it so that all that remains is the center
    square. You now take that Panasonic camera that has a similar
    pseudo zoom feature that triples the zoom to 30x, allowing you to
    emulate a 900mm lens. It is NOT doing it with optics. The sensor
    still is bathed by the light of a 300mm lens. But the Panasonic
    camera is taking the central 1mp of the sensor and creating an image
    file just from that central part of the sensor. Even though the
    camera appears to be using a 900mm lens, the image of the central
    square on the sensor is being produced by a 300mm (35mm equivalent)
    lens, and it is only being captured by 1/9th of the sensor's pixels.

    Compare this with the version cropped on the computer and you'll
    see that they're both 1mp images of the same single checkerboard
    square. So by cropping the image on the computer, you're also
    changing what the camera took with a 300mm lens into what a 900mm
    lens might have captured. In *both* cases a 900mm lens was *not*
    used. It's just that the result (at lower resolution) shows what a
    900mm lens would have captured. The difference is that had a real
    900mm lens been used, that single square would have been much
    sharper because you would have been left with a 9mp image. If you
    don't understand this, try googling the acronym "TANSTAAFL".

    One last thing, which I've pointed out before. Doing it the FZ30
    way leaves you with only the single, central square. If you instead
    used no electronic trickery, relying only on the lens's 300mm focal
    length, you'd have an image with the same central square, but also
    the 8 surrounding squares, which would be *very* much more useful
    for candid photography, since it would allow you to get the intended
    subject even if you couldn't use a viewfinder or LCD to precisely
    frame the subject, and it might even capture something interesting
    that you didn't notice at the time the picture was taken, which
    would be lost if it wasn't contained within the central square.
     
    ASAAR, Dec 17, 2006
    #20
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