Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?

Discussion in 'Cisco' started by Ramon F Herrera, Jul 3, 2005.

  1. I was told something that I find hard to believe:
    Supposedly Vonage and the other VoIP telcos perform a traceroute and if
    they determine that the SIP phone's IP address is outside the US (and
    that's VERY hard to determine), then the service is not provided.

    Any truth to that?

    -Ramon
    Ramon F Herrera, Jul 3, 2005
    #1
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  2. Ramon F Herrera

    Scooby Guest

    It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
    address. However, Vonage does not restrict on this basis. There are other
    concerns though, here is an FAQ from vonage:

    http://www.vonage.com/help.php?article=272&category=53&nav=6

    You'd have to check with each voip provider to see if they restrict based on
    country.

    Hope that helps,

    Jim


    "Ramon F Herrera" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I was told something that I find hard to believe:
    > Supposedly Vonage and the other VoIP telcos perform a traceroute and if
    > they determine that the SIP phone's IP address is outside the US (and
    > that's VERY hard to determine), then the service is not provided.
    >
    > Any truth to that?
    >
    > -Ramon
    >
    Scooby, Jul 4, 2005
    #2
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  3. In article <Jdfye.3683$>,
    Scooby <> wrote:
    :It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
    :address.

    Well, in about the same sense that the Sun is not "mildly warm".

    In the general case, it not possible to tell what country you are
    in based on your IP address.

    When I go and visit my relatives in the USA, and I dial up
    work (in Canada), and perform activities from behind our NAT'ing
    firewall, then exactly what mechanism exists that can not only
    bypass our firewall to get information, but can also tell from
    the IP address alone whether I'm dialing up work from Alberta or Alabama
    or Albania ?
    --
    "Mathematics? I speak it like a native." -- Spike Milligan
    Walter Roberson, Jul 4, 2005
    #3
  4. On 04.07.2005 20:50 Walter Roberson wrote

    > In article <Jdfye.3683$>,
    > Scooby <> wrote:
    > :It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
    > :address.
    >
    > Well, in about the same sense that the Sun is not "mildly warm".
    >
    > In the general case, it not possible to tell what country you are
    > in based on your IP address.
    >


    You can ...

    > When I go and visit my relatives in the USA, and I dial up
    > work (in Canada), and perform activities from behind our NAT'ing
    > firewall, then exactly what mechanism exists that can not only
    > bypass our firewall to get information, but can also tell from
    > the IP address alone whether I'm dialing up work from Alberta or Alabama
    > or Albania ?


    .... as IP wise it doesn't matter where you physically are. "Your" are
    always from CA.

    And in the general case the IP's location is identical to where the
    person really is.

    The real trick of all these geolocation software is to map the ISP's
    assigned blocks to locations.





    Arnold
    --
    Arnold Nipper, AN45
    Arnold Nipper, Jul 4, 2005
    #4
  5. In article <>,
    Arnold Nipper <> wrote:
    :On 04.07.2005 20:50 Walter Roberson wrote

    :> In the general case, it not possible to tell what country you are
    :> in based on your IP address.

    :You can ...

    :... as IP wise it doesn't matter where you physically are. "Your" are
    :always from CA.

    Which country you are physically in *does* matter in some cases.
    Cryptography export laws. Censorship laws. Laws that determine which
    country has jurisdiction in a civil suit over credit card purchases.
    Defamation laws. Copyright laws. Tax and duty laws. Database / site
    access which must be free to residents of one country because of
    government funding, but residents of other countries must pay a fee...


    :And in the general case the IP's location is identical to where the
    :person really is.

    One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
    between the public network and the private network that one is using.

    --
    History is a pile of debris -- Laurie Anderson
    Walter Roberson, Jul 4, 2005
    #5
  6. On 05.07.2005 00:03 Walter Roberson wrote

    > :And in the general case the IP's location is identical to where the
    > :person really is.
    >
    > One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
    > between the public network and the private network that one is using.
    >


    Which is quite perfect for most of the companies interested in locating you.




    Arnold
    --
    Arnold Nipper, AN45
    Arnold Nipper, Jul 4, 2005
    #6
  7. In article <>,
    Arnold Nipper <> wrote:
    :On 05.07.2005 00:03 Walter Roberson wrote

    :> One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
    :> between the public network and the private network that one is using.

    :Which is quite perfect for most of the companies interested in locating you.


    Scooby <> wrote:
    >>> It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP

    >> address.


    There is a large difference between saying that it is "not difficult"
    to tell what country you are in, and saying that one can get close
    enough for "most of the companies interested in locating you."


    If I contend that it is difficult to factor a number which is the
    product of two large primes, then an appropriate response from you
    would not be "But most numbers are divisible by 2, 3, or 5, which is
    good enough for most people interested in factoring numbers."
    --
    I was very young in those days, but I was also rather dim.
    -- Christopher Priest
    Walter Roberson, Jul 5, 2005
    #7
  8. On 05.07.2005 01:32 Walter Roberson wrote

    > In article <>,
    > Arnold Nipper <> wrote:
    > :On 05.07.2005 00:03 Walter Roberson wrote
    >
    > :> One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
    > :> between the public network and the private network that one is using.
    >
    > :Which is quite perfect for most of the companies interested in locating you.
    >
    >
    > Scooby <> wrote:
    >>>> It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
    >>> address.

    >
    > There is a large difference between saying that it is "not difficult"
    > to tell what country you are in, and saying that one can get close
    > enough for "most of the companies interested in locating you."
    >
    >


    Nobody said it's the same. So what's your point?



    Arnold
    --
    Arnold Nipper, AN45
    Arnold Nipper, Jul 5, 2005
    #8
  9. Ramon F Herrera

    Scooby Guest

    "Walter Roberson" <-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote in message
    news:dacgtp$2oo$...
    > In article <>,
    > Arnold Nipper <> wrote:
    > :On 05.07.2005 00:03 Walter Roberson wrote
    >
    > :> One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
    > :> between the public network and the private network that one is using.
    >
    > :Which is quite perfect for most of the companies interested in locating

    you.
    >
    >
    > Scooby <> wrote:
    > >>> It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
    > >> address.

    >
    > There is a large difference between saying that it is "not difficult"
    > to tell what country you are in, and saying that one can get close
    > enough for "most of the companies interested in locating you."
    >
    >
    > If I contend that it is difficult to factor a number which is the
    > product of two large primes, then an appropriate response from you
    > would not be "But most numbers are divisible by 2, 3, or 5, which is
    > good enough for most people interested in factoring numbers."
    > --
    > I was very young in those days, but I was also rather dim.
    > -- Christopher Priest


    Okay, let me rephrase my response.... It is not difficult to tell what
    country an originating IP is in. It was just a general response to a
    general question. If a telco were to try and restrict based on this
    information, it is a fairly simple task.

    You are correct in saying that it is possible to circumvent their logic
    through vpn's and dialup. However, it is then you that would be breaking
    the EULA or laws. I think the point here is that it only seems to be
    illegal in some areas. Vonage does not make that distinction, but rather
    puts the responsibility on the end user.

    I will say this... It is very possible that if you are going through the
    trouble of using vpn from a distant country, you may totally destroy any
    sound quality. Consider that you have distance latency, plus vpn overhead
    from there to the States, then back out to the remote location (possibly
    back overseas). It could be a horrible connection - there are better
    alternatives for people just looking for free/cheap voip.

    Jim
    Scooby, Jul 5, 2005
    #9
  10. In article <4bb74$42cae5ed$a22770bd$>,
    Scooby <> wrote:
    :Okay, let me rephrase my response.... It is not difficult to tell what
    :country an originating IP is in.

    And I still say that it is sometimes *impossible* to determine which
    country an originating IP is in. Don't confuse registrar and
    physical location of the person responsible for the traffic.


    : It was just a general response to a
    :general question. If a telco were to try and restrict based on this
    :information, it is a fairly simple task.

    A telco (or anyone else) would be able to restrict based on
    "guestimates" of where the IP is, but not upon where the IP *really* is.


    :You are correct in saying that it is possible to circumvent their logic
    :through vpn's and dialup. However, it is then you that would be breaking
    :the EULA or laws.

    Read it in reverse: there are cases in which if I am in a
    particular country, it is legally necessary to grant me access to
    material, but that providers that rely on (necessarily) inaccurate
    information about where my IP is may block me because they think
    I'm elsewhere. The blocker is then breaking the rule or contract
    or law by denying access based upon information that they *know*
    cannot be completely accurate.
    --
    Any sufficiently old bug becomes a feature.
    Walter Roberson, Jul 5, 2005
    #10
  11. On 05.07.2005 23:57 Walter Roberson wrote

    > In article <4bb74$42cae5ed$a22770bd$>,
    > Scooby <> wrote:
    > :Okay, let me rephrase my response.... It is not difficult to tell what
    > :country an originating IP is in.
    >
    > And I still say that it is sometimes *impossible* to determine which
    > country an originating IP is in.


    It's always possible to determine. At least the IP owner can.

    > Don't confuse registrar and
    > physical location of the person responsible for the traffic.
    >


    Usually there is far more information around. Geolocation has become a
    real industry.

    >
    > : It was just a general response to a
    > :general question. If a telco were to try and restrict based on this
    > :information, it is a fairly simple task.
    >
    > A telco (or anyone else) would be able to restrict based on
    > "guestimates" of where the IP is, but not upon where the IP *really* is.
    >
    >
    > :You are correct in saying that it is possible to circumvent their logic
    > :through vpn's and dialup. However, it is then you that would be breaking
    > :the EULA or laws.
    >
    > Read it in reverse: there are cases in which if I am in a
    > particular country, it is legally necessary to grant me access to
    > material, but that providers that rely on (necessarily) inaccurate
    > information about where my IP is may block me because they think
    > I'm elsewhere. The blocker is then breaking the rule or contract
    > or law by denying access based upon information that they *know*
    > cannot be completely accurate.


    Are talking about theory or real life? Maybe you could give a real life
    example.




    Arnold
    --
    Arnold Nipper, AN45
    Arnold Nipper, Jul 5, 2005
    #11
  12. In article <>,
    Arnold Nipper <> wrote:
    :On 05.07.2005 23:57 Walter Roberson wrote

    :> And I still say that it is sometimes *impossible* to determine which
    :> country an originating IP is in.

    :It's always possible to determine. At least the IP owner can.

    Nope. My partner's mobile phone has modem capabilities. I can be
    most anywhere in North America and dial up through work and the
    same phone number would show up. Show up, that is, if we got
    a court order of a Pen Trace against ourselves, since we don't have
    calling number display on our decade-old modems, and since calling
    number is easily blocked.

    After we got the Pen Trace, we could then proceed to a court
    order against the cell phone company ording the triangulation
    records so as to determine where the cell phone was during the
    call. But the cell carrier isn't the IP owner, and we can't
    just -ask- the cell carrier... Thus it is false that the IP owner can
    always determine the origin of the IP.

    Now toss in the various services that offer network to dialout
    [and hence to dialup], including not only the VOIP providers
    but also the packet radio gateways. The person who initiated the
    connection might not even be on the same continent as the
    IP address owner's office.
    --
    Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.
    -- Rich Kulawiec
    Walter Roberson, Jul 6, 2005
    #12
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