Can Canon 5D take advantage of hi speed CF cards?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by anonymous@demon.co.uk, May 15, 2006.

  1. Guest

    Anyone know the answer? I guess there is read speed - useful for review
    and downloading - but write acceleration will speed up capture, I would
    presume, if the camera can take advantage.

    I have a 10D, which I believes works just as well with slower cards, but
    want to buy cards that work optimally with my next body - probably a 5D.

    TIA.
    --
    Alan F Cross
     
    , May 15, 2006
    #1
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  2. Bill Hilton Guest

    >
    >
    >Anyone know the answer?


    Yes, Rob Galbraith. He tested the 5D with several cards ...
    http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-8198 ... looks
    like > 7 MB/sec with the faster cards, meaning you can get another shot
    off every 1.5 sec or so once the buffer fills ... the slower cards are
    around 4 MB/sec so not quite twice as slow. You can get info on your
    10D from the drop-down menu if you want to compare.

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, May 15, 2006
    #2
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  3. Mark² Guest

    Bill Hilton wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> Anyone know the answer?

    >
    > Yes, Rob Galbraith. He tested the 5D with several cards ...
    > http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-8198 ...
    > looks like > 7 MB/sec with the faster cards, meaning you can get
    > another shot off every 1.5 sec or so once the buffer fills ... the
    > slower cards are around 4 MB/sec so not quite twice as slow. You can
    > get info on your 10D from the drop-down menu if you want to compare.
    >
    > Bill


    Ah. Good.
    I just bit the bullet (three hours ago) and ordered the 5D...
    I've been using my old, faithful set of 3 1GB microdrives for the last 5-6
    years...which haven't failed a single time since buying them in 2000...but
    the 4GB SanDisk Extreme III I just bought leaves them in the dust when
    tranferring to the computer. Hopefully the 5D will take advantage of at
    least SOME of the card's read/write speed.

    -Mark²
     
    Mark², May 16, 2006
    #3
  4. "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:

    > I just bit the bullet (three hours ago) and ordered the 5D...
    > I've been using my old, faithful set of 3 1GB microdrives for the last 5-6
    > years...which haven't failed a single time since buying them in 2000...but
    > the 4GB SanDisk Extreme III I just bought leaves them in the dust when
    > tranferring to the computer. Hopefully the 5D will take advantage of at
    > least SOME of the card's read/write speed.


    I was a bit worried about using a 4GB card (in fact, that 4GB card), since
    it has to use a somewhat slower file system, and there are reports that
    things slow down when the card gets almost full.

    But it's amazingly fast. There's basically no waiting for the card (compared
    to the 10D/300D); review and switching between images in playback are
    instantaneous. The numbers have it being three times faster to write _a RAW
    frame_, but it seems a lot more than that. (Although I haven't filled the
    card; I rarely get to 100 frames, let alone the 220 or so the card will
    hold.)

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, May 16, 2006
    #4
  5. Bill Hilton Guest

    > Mark² lowest even number here
    >
    > I just bit the bullet (three hours ago) and ordered the 5D...


    I just saw an early announcement for the 6D on a German site ... sorry
    .... faster, more megapixels, lower price ...

    >the 4GB SanDisk Extreme III I just bought leaves them in the dust
    >when tranferring to the computer. Hopefully the 5D will take advantage
    >of at least SOME of the card's read/write speed.


    A warning on using the 4 GB cards ... as they fill up past 50% they
    start to get pretty slow, which can be a problem if you are bursting
    and waiting for the buffer to clear one more frame so you can shoot ...
    here's a chart Roger Clark made plotting this ... at these speeds with
    say the 1D M II it could take 2 sec to free up another frame after the
    buffer fills or it could take 8 sec, depending on how full the card is
    .... I got bit by this when the lions were fighting in Africa, deep into
    a 4 GB card and I almost pushed the shutter release thru the bottom of
    the camera waiting 6-8 sec after I filled up :)
    http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/compact_flash_card_speed/index.html

    Oh yeah, just kidding about the 6D, I made it up :) That's what
    usually happens to me, I wait to buy and they announce the newer model
    a month later though ...

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, May 16, 2006
    #5
  6. Mark² Guest

    Bill Hilton wrote:
    >> Mark lowest even number here
    >>
    >> I just bit the bullet (three hours ago) and ordered the 5D...

    >
    > I just saw an early announcement for the 6D on a German site ... sorry
    > ... faster, more megapixels, lower price ...


    >> the 4GB SanDisk Extreme III I just bought leaves them in the dust
    >> when tranferring to the computer. Hopefully the 5D will take
    >> advantage of at least SOME of the card's read/write speed.

    >
    > A warning on using the 4 GB cards ... as they fill up past 50% they
    > start to get pretty slow, which can be a problem if you are bursting
    > and waiting for the buffer to clear one more frame so you can shoot
    > ... here's a chart Roger Clark made plotting this ... at these speeds
    > with say the 1D M II it could take 2 sec to free up another frame
    > after the buffer fills or it could take 8 sec, depending on how full
    > the card is ...


    That's not a happy thought... The 5D only hits 3 fps as it is, so an 8
    second wait would be painful.
    If that's true, then I'll limit additional cards to 2GB.

    On that note...
    It's too bad that the camera makers haven't figured out a way to
    automatically partition big drives into two (or more) smaller 2GB partitions
    that would be treated as smaller drives in the file system. -Its something
    I've never heard discussed, but something that occurs to me. I wonder if
    this has been considered. It would need to be automatic on format, and have
    an auto swith-over to the other partition as needed (without photog
    intervention). Any takers??

    > I got bit by this when the lions were fighting in
    > Africa, deep into a 4 GB card and I almost pushed the shutter release
    > thru the bottom of the camera waiting 6-8 sec after I filled up :)


    My shutter finger would have been bleeding in that instance. :)
    Have you sold that series to anyone yet?
    Worth a nice price IMO.

    > http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/compact_flash_card_speed/index.html


    Thanks. I'll look at this.

    > Oh yeah, just kidding about the 6D, I made it up :) That's what
    > usually happens to me, I wait to buy and they announce the newer model
    > a month later though ...


    Alright Bill... You had me there for a second... :) I was already feeling
    relieved that B&H has a great return policy... Fact is though...I'll
    appreciate full frame wide in my upcoming trip to Ukraine and wouldn't want
    to wait (though I don't know how much time I'll get to spend shooting).

    I know how it feels to just miss on purchase timing. I've been waiting for
    a mythical "3D-type" body for a couple years, but alas...it cannot come into
    being until AFTER I jump on the 5D. :) So just as it was with my 24-70
    (lack of IS) purchase that was immediately followed by the anouncement of
    the 24-105 f4 IS, I've likely helped to unleash the "3D" on the
    orld... -You're all welcome! ;)

    -Mark
     
    Mark², May 16, 2006
    #6
  7. Mark² Guest

    David J. Littleboy wrote:
    > "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
    >
    >> I just bit the bullet (three hours ago) and ordered the 5D...
    >> I've been using my old, faithful set of 3 1GB microdrives for the
    >> last 5-6 years...which haven't failed a single time since buying
    >> them in 2000...but the 4GB SanDisk Extreme III I just bought leaves
    >> them in the dust when tranferring to the computer. Hopefully the 5D
    >> will take advantage of at least SOME of the card's read/write speed.

    >
    > I was a bit worried about using a 4GB card (in fact, that 4GB card),
    > since it has to use a somewhat slower file system, and there are
    > reports that things slow down when the card gets almost full.
    >
    > But it's amazingly fast. There's basically no waiting for the card
    > (compared to the 10D/300D); review and switching between images in
    > playback are instantaneous. The numbers have it being three times
    > faster to write _a RAW frame_, but it seems a lot more than that.
    > (Although I haven't filled the card; I rarely get to 100 frames, let
    > alone the 220 or so the card will hold.)


    That sounds good, though according to Bill H, it sounds like the card
    increasingly slows down shortly after those 100 images or so that you
    describe. I'll certainly test this and post. I wonder how much difference
    the card itself makes, and what card Bill/Roger's reports are based on
    (gotta go read his site).

    BTW, David... You're paritally to blame for the 5D heat coming from my
    wallet today.
    -Better make that TWO dinners.
    :)
    -Mark
     
    Mark², May 16, 2006
    #7
  8. "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
    >
    > BTW, David... You're paritally to blame for the 5D heat coming from my
    > wallet today.
    > -Better make that TWO dinners.
    > :)


    If the twits at Canon paid me what I deserve for plugging their products,
    you'd get three.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, May 16, 2006
    #8
  9. ASAAR Guest

    On Tue, 16 May 2006 08:46:45 +0900, David J. Littleboy wrote:

    > (Although I haven't filled the card; I rarely get to 100 frames, let alone
    > the 220 or so the card will hold.)


    It might be worth trying this - the next time you get near 100
    frames, copy the files to your computer but don't delete them from
    the card. Instead, move them to another folder. Or instead, when
    the card is empty, copy a couple of large files (any type, they
    could be spreadsheets or even copies of software) into a new folder,
    leaving less than 2GB available for your new shots. There's a
    chance that the 4GB card won't then exhibit the reported slowing
    down. The same slowing down has long been seen with older computers
    when too many files were added to folders. If this is the cause of
    the problem, and the 5D is one of the new cameras that allows you to
    create new image folders, the slowing down could be eliminated
    without having to resort to an external computer to remove files or
    move them to another folder on the card.
     
    ASAAR, May 16, 2006
    #9
  10. "ASAAR" <> wrote:
    > On Tue, 16 May 2006 08:46:45 +0900, David J. Littleboy wrote:
    >
    >> (Although I haven't filled the card; I rarely get to 100 frames, let
    >> alone
    >> the 220 or so the card will hold.)

    >
    > It might be worth trying this - the next time you get near 100
    > frames, copy the files to your computer but don't delete them from
    > the card. Instead, move them to another folder. Or instead, when
    > the card is empty, copy a couple of large files (any type, they
    > could be spreadsheets or even copies of software) into a new folder,
    > leaving less than 2GB available for your new shots. There's a
    > chance that the 4GB card won't then exhibit the reported slowing
    > down. The same slowing down has long been seen with older computers
    > when too many files were added to folders.


    That's a thought. Actually, it's easy to test how much of a problem this is;
    just shoot 180 pictures of the wall and see what working with the last 40
    images is like.

    Well, not that easy: the 5D's not a 1Dmk2, and bursts for 7 shots, hiccups
    and slows way down at the 8th, and grinds to a halt at the 16th or so.
    Clearing the buffer takes 12 seconds or so.

    OK, with 261 raw images (and room for another 30! (I wasn't expecting 290
    frames in 4GB)), there's no objectionable (or really noticeable) slowing
    down. If there is any, it's on the order of a 20 percent or so at most.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, May 16, 2006
    #10
  11. ASAAR Guest

    On Tue, 16 May 2006 15:56:06 +0900, David J. Littleboy wrote:

    > Well, not that easy: the 5D's not a 1Dmk2, and bursts for 7 shots, hiccups
    > and slows way down at the 8th, and grinds to a halt at the 16th or so.
    > Clearing the buffer takes 12 seconds or so.
    >
    > OK, with 261 raw images (and room for another 30! (I wasn't expecting
    > 290 frames in 4GB)), there's no objectionable (or really noticeable)
    > slowing down. If there is any, it's on the order of a 20 percent or so at
    > most.


    I didn't think there would be much of a slowdown with flash cards,
    but older computers could show tremendous speed reductions when the
    number of files in a folder/directory exceeded some *magic* number
    of files, usually in the range of about 150 to 250. If you typed
    the DOS "DIR" command, the list of files would stream by in a blur
    too fast to read, no matter how many files were in the directory.
    But by the time one or two hundred had scrolled by, there was
    noticeable slowing. Soon, clusters of maybe 8 or 16 filenames would
    scroll, with the display coming to a complete halt for several
    seconds between each cluster. BTW, I may not have made it clear,
    but it sounds as if you did the best initial test, with *all* of the
    files in the same directory that the camera was saving new files
    into. So it sounds like the 5D doesn't have the speed problem that
    some people reported. Unless they were using 4GB micro drives
    instead of 4GB flash cards, that is. It was a combination of the
    number of files in a directory and the disk's latency (timing,
    waiting for the right sectors to pass under the magnetic heads) that
    caused the problem. Flash cards wouldn't have latency problems.
     
    ASAAR, May 16, 2006
    #11
  12. In article <e4bt2f$vs2$>, David J. Littleboy
    <> writes
    >
    >"ASAAR" <> wrote:
    >> On Tue, 16 May 2006 08:46:45 +0900, David J. Littleboy wrote:
    >>
    >>> (Although I haven't filled the card; I rarely get to 100 frames, let
    >>> alone
    >>> the 220 or so the card will hold.)

    >>
    >> It might be worth trying this - the next time you get near 100
    >> frames, copy the files to your computer but don't delete them from
    >> the card. Instead, move them to another folder. Or instead, when
    >> the card is empty, copy a couple of large files (any type, they
    >> could be spreadsheets or even copies of software) into a new folder,
    >> leaving less than 2GB available for your new shots. There's a
    >> chance that the 4GB card won't then exhibit the reported slowing
    >> down. The same slowing down has long been seen with older computers
    >> when too many files were added to folders.

    >
    >That's a thought. Actually, it's easy to test how much of a problem this is;
    >just shoot 180 pictures of the wall and see what working with the last 40
    >images is like.
    >
    >Well, not that easy: the 5D's not a 1Dmk2, and bursts for 7 shots, hiccups
    >and slows way down at the 8th, and grinds to a halt at the 16th or so.
    >Clearing the buffer takes 12 seconds or so.
    >
    >OK, with 261 raw images (and room for another 30! (I wasn't expecting 290
    >frames in 4GB)), there's no objectionable (or really noticeable) slowing
    >down. If there is any, it's on the order of a 20 percent or so at most.
    >
    >David J. Littleboy
    >Tokyo, Japan
    >
    >

    AFAIK. even RAW files are compressed losslessly - which means that the
    photos of a plain wall are likely to be smaller than those of a complex
    subject.

    I have noticed several times that when the camera says there are X
    exposures left on the card, I take a picture, and it still says X
    exposures left; presumably the one I just took was smaller than average.

    Like you, I have not noticed any problems using a 4Gb card until it is
    full, though it is fair to add that I don't often need very fast frame
    rates. Will be interesting to see how it is the first time I take it to
    an airshow. (My favourite camera for this is an EOS 1nRS, so any
    tardiness should be noticeable!)

    Mark, I'm sure you will like the 5D - I have really enjoyed mine - and
    you will find that it is far better to use larger cards, as the 2Gb ones
    I thought were huge in my 10D now seem rather small!

    David
    --
    David Littlewood
     
    David Littlewood, May 16, 2006
    #12
  13. Bill Hilton Guest

    > Mark² lowest even number here writes ...
    >
    > If that's true (4 GB cards slow down markedly as they fill), then
    > I'll limit additional cards to 2GB


    We are still using 4 GB cards but if it looks like we need speed we
    swap them out after 2 GB ... it seems with a 4 GB card we have enough
    space for a morning or PM shoot so don't have to swap otherwise, which
    is nice. I've used the 1D M II for almost 2 years now and only filled
    the buffer seven times, and only twice did I miss some shots waiting
    for it to clear a bit, on the cheetah attacking a wildebeest and on
    this lion fight. So it's not a big deal very often. But our buffer is
    20 deep so if your camera is only 8 or 5 deep you'll fill a lot more
    often.

    > Have you sold that series (lions fighting) to anyone yet?


    We entered a couple of those in a contest and one of the requirements
    is that the pics not be published previously, so we are waiting to hear
    that we didn't win the contest :)

    BTW, Roger C and myself have a couple of jeeps lined up for next
    January in Tanzania and it looks like the third jeep/lodge reservation
    won't be used since someone decided not to go with us for health
    reasons. If you can get a couple of photo buddies together (three is
    the best number in one jeep) you can do this trip with us for about the
    cost of your new camera and a decent lens like the 24-105 ... 13 nights
    in the lodges at the best time of the year for the wildebeest migration
    and big cats (plus elephants and birds and whatever else happens) ...
    email me if interested. I don't think I'm going to Brooks in Alaska
    this summer (you asked about going up there with me earlier) as Africa
    is devouring all my spare change ...

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, May 16, 2006
    #13
  14. "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote in message
    news:Eocag.370$rS6.47@fed1read11...
    SNIP

    >> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/compact_flash_card_speed/index.html

    >
    > Thanks. I'll look at this.


    I have not seen a comparison of such a Lexar 80x card vs a Sandisk
    Extreme III, so be careful with drawing conclusions for other cards
    than those tested.

    --
    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, May 16, 2006
    #14
  15. Bill Hilton Guest

    >> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/compact_flash_card_speed/index...

    > Bart van der Wolf writes ....
    >
    >I have not seen a comparison of such a Lexar 80x card vs a Sandisk
    >Extreme III, so be careful with drawing conclusions for other cards
    >than those tested.


    I ran into a big slowdown with my SanDisk 4 GB Ultra II with the same
    model camera as Roger used in his test. I'm not sure if this is a
    problem with certain brands of cards or a generic problem once you go
    past 2 GB or if you only see it with certain cameras because of the
    addressing.

    Maybe later in the week (if I have time) I'll test my SanDisk 4 GB
    empty, 25% full, 50% full etc out to 90% full and see if it slows down
    like Roger's Lexar.

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, May 16, 2006
    #15
  16. "Bill Hilton" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >>> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/compact_flash_card_speed/index...

    >
    >> Bart van der Wolf writes ....
    >>
    >>I have not seen a comparison of such a Lexar 80x card vs a
    >>Sandisk Extreme III, so be careful with drawing conclusions
    >>for other cards than those tested.

    >
    > I ran into a big slowdown with my SanDisk 4 GB Ultra II with
    > the same model camera as Roger used in his test. I'm not
    > sure if this is a problem with certain brands of cards or a
    > generic problem once you go past 2 GB or if you only see it
    > with certain cameras because of the addressing.


    Good point and a useful observation.

    We also need to consider that per brand/type different manufacturing
    techniques could have been, or were, introduced in order to reach the
    higher storage capacity at the expense of reliability. So a direct
    brand/type comparison of cards IMHO should also specify serial numbers
    to be really useful. That is one of the reasons that the RG tests
    specify manufacturing/serial number details. That observation however
    doesn't explain the slowdown.

    By the way, this decreased reliability has also occurred with hard
    disks, the increase in storage capacity has resulted in a (much)
    higher reliance on error correction capability, again not that that
    would automatically result in a slowdown upon utilization of max
    capacity.

    --
    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, May 17, 2006
    #16
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