Can anyone explain digital camera shutters?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Alan Meyer, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. Alan Meyer

    Alan Meyer Guest

    I understand the basics of the mechanical shutters used on film
    cameras. They use a spring driven leaf arrangement that opens
    and closes, or a pair of curtains with the leading curtain
    opening up a light passage, followed by a trailing curtain that
    closes off the light coming through the lens.

    But I can't find any explanation of how the shutters work on
    digital cameras.

    I presume a digital SLR could use a mechanical shutter. But the
    point and shoot style cameras, and perhaps the dSLRs as well
    (I've never used one), have an LCD display that shows a live
    image as seen through the lens. I presume that, for that to
    work, there must be a continuous flow of light striking the photo
    sensor, and that light must be continuously translated into an
    electronic signal (voltage or current) to use in driving the LCD
    display.

    So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    really going on?

    I've also seen some camera reviews that talk about a combination
    of mechanical and electronic shutters in the same camera. How
    would that work and why would that be better than using only one
    technique?

    Thanks.

    Alan
     
    Alan Meyer, Dec 14, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. I assume the sensor itself is the shutter as it turns on and off.
    I have two cameras (Sony R1 and Panasonic FZ5) that will trigger a slave
    flash, but not successfully..
    The instant the slave flashes the shutter closes and the image is much
    too dark.
    I'm very disappointed with both cameras.
    Gene

    Alan Meyer wrote:

    > I understand the basics of the mechanical shutters used on film
    > cameras. They use a spring driven leaf arrangement that opens
    > and closes, or a pair of curtains with the leading curtain
    > opening up a light passage, followed by a trailing curtain that
    > closes off the light coming through the lens.
    >
    > But I can't find any explanation of how the shutters work on
    > digital cameras.
    >
    > I presume a digital SLR could use a mechanical shutter. But the
    > point and shoot style cameras, and perhaps the dSLRs as well
    > (I've never used one), have an LCD display that shows a live
    > image as seen through the lens. I presume that, for that to
    > work, there must be a continuous flow of light striking the photo
    > sensor, and that light must be continuously translated into an
    > electronic signal (voltage or current) to use in driving the LCD
    > display.
    >
    > So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    > reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    > actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    > for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    > really going on?
    >
    > I've also seen some camera reviews that talk about a combination
    > of mechanical and electronic shutters in the same camera. How
    > would that work and why would that be better than using only one
    > technique?
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    > Alan
     
    Gene F. Rhodes, Dec 14, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Alan Meyer

    Sheldon Guest

    "Alan Meyer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I understand the basics of the mechanical shutters used on film
    > cameras. They use a spring driven leaf arrangement that opens
    > and closes, or a pair of curtains with the leading curtain
    > opening up a light passage, followed by a trailing curtain that
    > closes off the light coming through the lens.
    >
    > But I can't find any explanation of how the shutters work on
    > digital cameras.
    >
    > I presume a digital SLR could use a mechanical shutter. But the
    > point and shoot style cameras, and perhaps the dSLRs as well
    > (I've never used one), have an LCD display that shows a live
    > image as seen through the lens. I presume that, for that to
    > work, there must be a continuous flow of light striking the photo
    > sensor, and that light must be continuously translated into an
    > electronic signal (voltage or current) to use in driving the LCD
    > display.
    >
    > So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    > reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    > actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    > for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    > really going on?
    >
    > I've also seen some camera reviews that talk about a combination
    > of mechanical and electronic shutters in the same camera. How
    > would that work and why would that be better than using only one
    > technique?
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    > Alan


    A DSLR does in fact use a standard shutter curtain just like a film SLR.
    Between the mirror and the shutter, this is why you can't see the digital
    image before you take it.

    I "think" some point and shoot cameras work like a Hassleblad. The shutter,
    which is in the lens, stays open so you can see the image, then closes and
    opens to make the exposure, then reopens again. You'll notice the image on
    the LCD often blanks, freezes, then comes to life again, which would follow
    my theory.
     
    Sheldon, Dec 14, 2005
    #3
  4. "Alan Meyer" <> writes:

    >I presume a digital SLR could use a mechanical shutter. But the
    >point and shoot style cameras, and perhaps the dSLRs as well
    >(I've never used one), have an LCD display that shows a live
    >image as seen through the lens. I presume that, for that to
    >work, there must be a continuous flow of light striking the photo
    >sensor, and that light must be continuously translated into an
    >electronic signal (voltage or current) to use in driving the LCD
    >display.


    The shutter is open during live LCD display. When you press the shutter
    release, the shutter closes, the CCD is wiped clean of charge, the
    shutter opens and closes for the selected exposure time, the image is
    read out of the CCD and digitized, and then the shutter opens again to
    provide video preview.

    On some cameras (e.g. Canon G2, from personal experience), if you turn
    off the LCD display you can hear the mechanical shutter closing
    immediately. Also, because the shutter is closed and the CCD is already
    in the dark, the camera can shoot faster when you eventually press the
    shutter.

    Also, some cameras use a combination shutter/aperture unit. The shutter
    blades can open partially to a preset diameter, and this controls the
    lens f/number instead of having a separate aperture diaphragm.

    >So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    >reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    >actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    >for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    >really going on?


    CCDs with an electronic shutter feature have some way of "blinding" the
    CCD to the light - probably by draining the electrons as fast as they
    accumulate. This can be turned on and off rapidly, giving faster
    shutter speeds than you could get with a mechanical shutter alone.

    >I've also seen some camera reviews that talk about a combination
    >of mechanical and electronic shutters in the same camera. How
    >would that work and why would that be better than using only one
    >technique?


    Electronic shuttering probably "leaks" a bit, so you need a mechanical
    shutter to truly block light for all but a small fraction of a second.
    But the electronic shutter gives fast shutter speeds that a mechanical
    shutter could not provide (particularly a leaf type).

    Dave
     
    Dave Martindale, Dec 14, 2005
    #4
  5. Alan Meyer

    Bob Williams Guest

    Gene F. Rhodes wrote:
    > I assume the sensor itself is the shutter as it turns on and off.
    > I have two cameras (Sony R1 and Panasonic FZ5) that will trigger a slave
    > flash, but not successfully..
    > The instant the slave flashes the shutter closes and the image is much
    > too dark.
    > I'm very disappointed with both cameras.
    > Gene
    >
    > Alan Meyer wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I understand the basics of the mechanical shutters used on film
    >>cameras. They use a spring driven leaf arrangement that opens
    >>and closes, or a pair of curtains with the leading curtain
    >>opening up a light passage, followed by a trailing curtain that
    >>closes off the light coming through the lens.
    >>
    >>But I can't find any explanation of how the shutters work on
    >>digital cameras.
    >>
    >>I presume a digital SLR could use a mechanical shutter. But the
    >>point and shoot style cameras, and perhaps the dSLRs as well
    >>(I've never used one), have an LCD display that shows a live
    >>image as seen through the lens. I presume that, for that to
    >>work, there must be a continuous flow of light striking the photo
    >>sensor, and that light must be continuously translated into an
    >>electronic signal (voltage or current) to use in driving the LCD
    >>display.
    >>
    >>So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    >>reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    >>actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    >>for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    >>really going on?
    >>
    >>I've also seen some camera reviews that talk about a combination
    >>of mechanical and electronic shutters in the same camera. How
    >>would that work and why would that be better than using only one
    >>technique?
    >>
    >>Thanks.
    >>
    >> Alan

    >
    >

    Gene,
    A regular slave flash is not recommended for digital cameras.
    Most digital P/S cameras use a preflash to to set the proper focus and
    exposure. Then comes the main flash.
    A regular slave will fire on the Preflash and will be extinguished by
    the time the main flash(which is synchronized with the shutter), fires.
    What you need is a special Digital "smart" flash which ignores one or
    more preflashes and fires ONLY when the main flash fires.
    Google on Digital flash or Smart Flash.
    Bob Williams
     
    Bob Williams, Dec 14, 2005
    #5
  6. Alan Meyer

    Ian O Guest

    In article <>,
    "Alan Meyer" <> wrote:

    > So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    > reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    > actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    > for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    > really going on?


    Seriously weird! I just set my Panasonic FZ30 to maximum zoom which
    allows a pretty good view of the back of the lens array, when it is
    illuminated by a light behind me.

    When the camera is asleep, the back port is blanked off by a leaf
    shutter. It opens when the camera awakes.

    Depending on the settings & light levels, there may or may not be a leaf
    iris partially closed at about the same plane as the shutter.

    When the shutter button is pressed, the iris opens, then the shutter
    closes...pause...then opens and the iris returns to its partially closed
    position.

    The iris actually opens during the focus preset, when I half-squeeze the
    shutter button.

    Yes, this all seems counter intuitive. What do you guys see in your
    cameras?

    --
    ....IRO
     
    Ian O, Dec 14, 2005
    #6
  7. Alan Meyer

    Philip S Guest

    Canon cameras can use regular slave flash in manual mode if they have it.
    You can set the cameras flash to 1/3 2/3 or full. There is no preflash in
    this mode. I used this on my a80 and now a620 with a vivitar 285 and a slave
    unit

    "Bob Williams" <> wrote in message
    news:ppPnf.103$vx.19@fed1read01...
    >
    >
    > Gene F. Rhodes wrote:
    >> I assume the sensor itself is the shutter as it turns on and off.
    >> I have two cameras (Sony R1 and Panasonic FZ5) that will trigger a slave
    >> flash, but not successfully..
    >> The instant the slave flashes the shutter closes and the image is much
    >> too dark.
    >> I'm very disappointed with both cameras.
    >> Gene
    >>
    >> Alan Meyer wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I understand the basics of the mechanical shutters used on film
    >>>cameras. They use a spring driven leaf arrangement that opens
    >>>and closes, or a pair of curtains with the leading curtain
    >>>opening up a light passage, followed by a trailing curtain that
    >>>closes off the light coming through the lens.
    >>>
    >>>But I can't find any explanation of how the shutters work on
    >>>digital cameras.
    >>>
    >>>I presume a digital SLR could use a mechanical shutter. But the
    >>>point and shoot style cameras, and perhaps the dSLRs as well
    >>>(I've never used one), have an LCD display that shows a live
    >>>image as seen through the lens. I presume that, for that to
    >>>work, there must be a continuous flow of light striking the photo
    >>>sensor, and that light must be continuously translated into an
    >>>electronic signal (voltage or current) to use in driving the LCD
    >>>display.
    >>>
    >>>So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    >>>reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    >>>actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    >>>for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    >>>really going on?
    >>>
    >>>I've also seen some camera reviews that talk about a combination
    >>>of mechanical and electronic shutters in the same camera. How
    >>>would that work and why would that be better than using only one
    >>>technique?
    >>>
    >>>Thanks.
    >>>
    >>> Alan

    >>
    >>

    > Gene,
    > A regular slave flash is not recommended for digital cameras.
    > Most digital P/S cameras use a preflash to to set the proper focus and
    > exposure. Then comes the main flash.
    > A regular slave will fire on the Preflash and will be extinguished by the
    > time the main flash(which is synchronized with the shutter), fires.
    > What you need is a special Digital "smart" flash which ignores one or more
    > preflashes and fires ONLY when the main flash fires.
    > Google on Digital flash or Smart Flash.
    > Bob Williams
    >
     
    Philip S, Dec 14, 2005
    #7
  8. Thanks Bob,
    both cameras will trigger a regular slave, but not a pre-flash slave.
    I'm out of luck with my FZ5, but I'm using two external flashes with the R1.
    See: http://www.photoprojects.net/sunviv.jpg
    Gene




    Bob Williams wrote:

    > Gene F. Rhodes wrote:
    > > I assume the sensor itself is the shutter as it turns on and off.
    > > I have two cameras (Sony R1 and Panasonic FZ5) that will trigger a slave
    > > flash, but not successfully..
    > > The instant the slave flashes the shutter closes and the image is much
    > > too dark.
    > > I'm very disappointed with both cameras.
    > > Gene
    > >
    > > Alan Meyer wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >>I understand the basics of the mechanical shutters used on film
    > >>cameras. They use a spring driven leaf arrangement that opens
    > >>and closes, or a pair of curtains with the leading curtain
    > >>opening up a light passage, followed by a trailing curtain that
    > >>closes off the light coming through the lens.
    > >>
    > >>But I can't find any explanation of how the shutters work on
    > >>digital cameras.
    > >>
    > >>I presume a digital SLR could use a mechanical shutter. But the
    > >>point and shoot style cameras, and perhaps the dSLRs as well
    > >>(I've never used one), have an LCD display that shows a live
    > >>image as seen through the lens. I presume that, for that to
    > >>work, there must be a continuous flow of light striking the photo
    > >>sensor, and that light must be continuously translated into an
    > >>electronic signal (voltage or current) to use in driving the LCD
    > >>display.
    > >>
    > >>So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    > >>reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    > >>actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    > >>for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    > >>really going on?
    > >>
    > >>I've also seen some camera reviews that talk about a combination
    > >>of mechanical and electronic shutters in the same camera. How
    > >>would that work and why would that be better than using only one
    > >>technique?
    > >>
    > >>Thanks.
    > >>
    > >> Alan

    > >
    > >

    > Gene,
    > A regular slave flash is not recommended for digital cameras.
    > Most digital P/S cameras use a preflash to to set the proper focus and
    > exposure. Then comes the main flash.
    > A regular slave will fire on the Preflash and will be extinguished by
    > the time the main flash(which is synchronized with the shutter), fires.
    > What you need is a special Digital "smart" flash which ignores one or
    > more preflashes and fires ONLY when the main flash fires.
    > Google on Digital flash or Smart Flash.
    > Bob Williams
     
    Gene F. Rhodes, Dec 14, 2005
    #8
  9. Alan Meyer

    Deedee Tee Guest

    One more thing to add. Some DSLRs (like the Nikon D2X) have a
    mechanical curtain shutter that implements all speeds that the camera
    is capable of. This works just like the shutter of a film SLR. Other
    DSLRs (Nikon D70, D70s) have a mechanical shutter that implements only
    speeds 1/250 s and slower (the fastest limit may be different in other
    brands and models). At faster speeds, the sensor is switched on and
    off quickly to simulate a fast exposure after the curtain opens and
    before it closes. In theory it works just fine, but in practice the
    sensor is more sensitive to blooming with short exposures than with a
    "real" fast shutter. The advantage to the manufacturer, of course, is
    that a not-so-fast shutter is much cheaper to build.

    On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 03:51:05 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
    Martindale) wrote:

    >"Alan Meyer" <> writes:
    >
    >>I presume a digital SLR could use a mechanical shutter. But the
    >>point and shoot style cameras, and perhaps the dSLRs as well
    >>(I've never used one), have an LCD display that shows a live
    >>image as seen through the lens. I presume that, for that to
    >>work, there must be a continuous flow of light striking the photo
    >>sensor, and that light must be continuously translated into an
    >>electronic signal (voltage or current) to use in driving the LCD
    >>display.

    >
    >The shutter is open during live LCD display. When you press the shutter
    >release, the shutter closes, the CCD is wiped clean of charge, the
    >shutter opens and closes for the selected exposure time, the image is
    >read out of the CCD and digitized, and then the shutter opens again to
    >provide video preview.
    >
    >On some cameras (e.g. Canon G2, from personal experience), if you turn
    >off the LCD display you can hear the mechanical shutter closing
    >immediately. Also, because the shutter is closed and the CCD is already
    >in the dark, the camera can shoot faster when you eventually press the
    >shutter.
    >
    >Also, some cameras use a combination shutter/aperture unit. The shutter
    >blades can open partially to a preset diameter, and this controls the
    >lens f/number instead of having a separate aperture diaphragm.
    >
    >>So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    >>reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    >>actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    >>for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    >>really going on?

    >
    >CCDs with an electronic shutter feature have some way of "blinding" the
    >CCD to the light - probably by draining the electrons as fast as they
    >accumulate. This can be turned on and off rapidly, giving faster
    >shutter speeds than you could get with a mechanical shutter alone.
    >
    >>I've also seen some camera reviews that talk about a combination
    >>of mechanical and electronic shutters in the same camera. How
    >>would that work and why would that be better than using only one
    >>technique?

    >
    >Electronic shuttering probably "leaks" a bit, so you need a mechanical
    >shutter to truly block light for all but a small fraction of a second.
    >But the electronic shutter gives fast shutter speeds that a mechanical
    >shutter could not provide (particularly a leaf type).
    >
    > Dave
     
    Deedee Tee, Dec 14, 2005
    #9
  10. Alan Meyer

    Andrew Haley Guest

    Alan Meyer <> wrote:
    > I understand the basics of the mechanical shutters used on film
    > cameras. They use a spring driven leaf arrangement that opens
    > and closes, or a pair of curtains with the leading curtain
    > opening up a light passage, followed by a trailing curtain that
    > closes off the light coming through the lens.


    > But I can't find any explanation of how the shutters work on
    > digital cameras.


    It's a hybrid structure where part of the sensor is photosensitive,
    and part of it isn't -- it's just storage. When the exposure is
    complete the photoelectrons are transferred from the photsensitive
    part to the non-photsensitive, and the pixels are serially read from
    there.

    http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1157575,00.asp

    Andrew.
     
    Andrew Haley, Dec 14, 2005
    #10
  11. Andrew Haley <> writes:

    >It's a hybrid structure where part of the sensor is photosensitive,
    >and part of it isn't -- it's just storage. When the exposure is
    >complete the photoelectrons are transferred from the photsensitive
    >part to the non-photsensitive, and the pixels are serially read from
    >there.


    >http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1157575,00.asp


    You're talking about video CCDs, which have to be able to collect light
    for the next frame at the same time as reading out the previous frame's
    image. Not all still cameras need to do that.

    In particular, P&S digicams with live video display in their LCD or EVF
    are probably interline transfer types. DSLRs, which provide no video
    output, are full-frame sensors (which gives them a sensitivity
    advantage).

    The problem with frame transfer CCDs is that the chip area is twice the
    sensitive area. There may be room for a double-size chip in a video
    camera or a tiny-sensor P&S still camera, but this design is not
    practical for any large-sensor camera.

    Dave
     
    Dave Martindale, Dec 14, 2005
    #11
  12. [A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to
    Dave Martindale
    <>], who wrote in article <dno4r9$bae$>:
    > >So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    > >reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    > >actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    > >for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    > >really going on?


    > CCDs with an electronic shutter feature have some way of "blinding" the
    > CCD to the light - probably by draining the electrons as fast as they
    > accumulate.


    They do not accumulate. Incoming light discharges the capacitors, not
    charges them.

    If you naively "fully charge" the capacitor, the thermal noise is
    about 0.11 of the electron noise of the full well (assuming 300K and
    maximal discharge 2V - the typical current value). Thus the noise
    will not be tolerable in the dark parts of the image. In practice,
    one needs to "fully charge", then measure the voltage, wait, measure
    the voltage again (possible even on CCD: you charge at one end,
    measure at this end, shift by one cell, repeat), then subtract the
    values.

    > This can be turned on and off rapidly, giving faster shutter speeds
    > than you could get with a mechanical shutter alone.


    I know no way of turning off semiconductor... I do not know how
    "electronic shutters" work; probably doing the
    charge/measure/wait/measure cycle as quick as possible; probably these
    cycles are performed at different times for different parts of the sensor.

    Hope this helps,
    Ilya
     
    Ilya Zakharevich, Dec 15, 2005
    #12
  13. Alan Meyer

    Sheldon Guest

    "Ian O" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>,
    > "Alan Meyer" <> wrote:
    >
    >> So how does an electronic "shutter" work? Does it take a timed
    >> reading of an otherwise continuous sensor output? Does it
    >> actually shut down and clear the CCD sensor, then let it charge
    >> for some fixed period of time, then read the charge? What's
    >> really going on?

    >
    > Seriously weird! I just set my Panasonic FZ30 to maximum zoom which
    > allows a pretty good view of the back of the lens array, when it is
    > illuminated by a light behind me.
    >
    > When the camera is asleep, the back port is blanked off by a leaf
    > shutter. It opens when the camera awakes.
    >
    > Depending on the settings & light levels, there may or may not be a leaf
    > iris partially closed at about the same plane as the shutter.
    >
    > When the shutter button is pressed, the iris opens, then the shutter
    > closes...pause...then opens and the iris returns to its partially closed
    > position.
    >
    > The iris actually opens during the focus preset, when I half-squeeze the
    > shutter button.
    >
    > Yes, this all seems counter intuitive. What do you guys see in your
    > cameras?
    >
    > --
    > ...IRO


    My p and s looks about the same. It's kinda like a Hassleblad.
     
    Sheldon, Dec 15, 2005
    #13
  14. Alan Meyer

    Andrew Haley Guest

    Dave Martindale <> wrote:
    > Andrew Haley <> writes:


    >>It's a hybrid structure where part of the sensor is photosensitive,
    >>and part of it isn't -- it's just storage. When the exposure is
    >>complete the photoelectrons are transferred from the photsensitive
    >>part to the non-photsensitive, and the pixels are serially read from
    >>there.


    >>http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1157575,00.asp


    > You're talking about video CCDs,


    No, I'm not.

    > which have to be able to collect light for the next frame at the
    > same time as reading out the previous frame's image. Not all still
    > cameras need to do that.


    > In particular, P&S digicams with live video display in their LCD or EVF
    > are probably interline transfer types.


    Interline transfer types _are_ a hybrid structure where part of the
    sensor is photosensitive, and part of it isn't.

    Andrew.
     
    Andrew Haley, Dec 15, 2005
    #14
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