Can a CMOS Sensor Eliminate Red Flare?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Bubba, Apr 13, 2010.

  1. Bubba

    Bubba Guest

    I posted this in another Canon thread I started here, but no one's
    answered. The SX1 is available again, and it's the only P&S (from
    Canon) that has CMOS (lower-end P&S, that is). I will *never* buy
    another digital camera until I can take photographs where the reds/
    pinks/oranges/yellows appear as blotched pixels--despite excellent
    exposure. If there are other CMOS P&S, from different manufacturers,
    I'd like to know who/what/how much. Thanks.
     
    Bubba, Apr 13, 2010
    #1
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  2. Bubba

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Bubba <> wrote:
    >I posted this in another Canon thread I started here, but no one's
    >answered. The SX1 is available again, and it's the only P&S (from
    >Canon) that has CMOS (lower-end P&S, that is). I will *never* buy
    >another digital camera until I can take photographs where the reds/
    >pinks/oranges/yellows appear as blotched pixels--despite excellent
    >exposure.


    Until you're able to provide a clear example of whatever the hell it
    is you're whining about you're not likely to get an answer that you
    like.

    --
    Ray Fischer
     
    Ray Fischer, Apr 13, 2010
    #2
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  3. Bubba

    DanP Guest

    On 13 Apr, 00:59, Bubba <> wrote:
    > I posted this in another Canon thread I started here, but no one's
    > answered. The SX1 is available again, and it's the only P&S (from
    > Canon) that has CMOS (lower-end P&S, that is). I will *never* buy
    > another digital camera until I can take photographs where the reds/
    > pinks/oranges/yellows appear as blotched pixels--despite excellent
    > exposure. If there are other CMOS P&S, from different manufacturers,
    > I'd like to know who/what/how much. Thanks.


    I don't see a reson to complain about the reds:
    http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=sx1 red&m=text

    DanP
     
    DanP, Apr 13, 2010
    #3
  4. Bubba

    Martin Brown Guest

    Ray Fischer wrote:
    > Bubba <> wrote:
    >> I posted this in another Canon thread I started here, but no one's
    >> answered. The SX1 is available again, and it's the only P&S (from
    >> Canon) that has CMOS (lower-end P&S, that is). I will *never* buy
    >> another digital camera until I can take photographs where the reds/
    >> pinks/oranges/yellows appear as blotched pixels--despite excellent
    >> exposure.

    >
    > Until you're able to provide a clear example of whatever the hell it
    > is you're whining about you're not likely to get an answer that you
    > like.


    Even then it is unlikely he will like the answer.

    There is a 2x1 chroma subsampling artefact that might cause problems for
    some flower images with fine black detail on a saturated red background.
    Most notably that the horizontal and vertical resolutions will differ by
    a factor of two so that two images take in portrait and landscape modes
    will show obviously different amounts of detail.

    He might find that a Foveon sensor with 1x1x1 chroma will solve hs
    problem, but since he cannot be bothered to show an example it is
    impossible to say. Like RichA he can be dismissed as a whinger.

    Regards,
    Martin Brown
     
    Martin Brown, Apr 13, 2010
    #4
  5. Bubba

    Bubba Guest

    On Apr 13, 5:09 am, DanP <> wrote:
    >
    > I don't see a reson to complain about the reds:http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=sx1 red&m=text


    They're gorgeous shots. Frankly, I see some flare in the fourth
    photograph in the first (top) row, where the bright red leaves are in
    bright sunlight, against a very blue sky. Thank you for posting all of
    these. I learned the phrase "red flare" from the photo-editing company
    (British) whose software I use, and it's only in overcast or rain that
    my reds do not appear blotchy.

    Great work!
     
    Bubba, Apr 13, 2010
    #5
  6. Bubba

    DanP Guest

    On 13 Apr, 11:51, Bubba <> wrote:
    > On Apr 13, 5:09 am, DanP <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > I don't see a reson to complain about the reds:http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=sx1 red&m=text

    >
    > They're gorgeous shots. Frankly, I see some flare in the fourth
    > photograph in the first (top) row, where the bright red leaves are in
    > bright sunlight, against a very blue sky. Thank you for posting all of
    > these. I learned the phrase "red flare" from the photo-editing company
    > (British) whose software I use, and it's only in overcast or rain that
    > my reds do not appear blotchy.
    >
    > Great work!


    If you look at the EXIF data for that shot
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/35614822@N08/3878180969/meta/ you will
    notice it has been edited in Photoshop.
    So the colours are not what the camera captured.
    These shots are straigh out of camera (SOOC)
    http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=sx1 sooc&m=text .


    DanP
     
    DanP, Apr 13, 2010
    #6
  7. Bubba <> wrote:
    > On Apr 13, 5:09?am, DanP <> wrote:
    >>
    >> I don't see a reson to complain about the reds:http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=sx1 red&m=text


    > They're gorgeous shots. Frankly, I see some flare in the fourth
    > photograph in the first (top) row, where the bright red leaves are in
    > bright sunlight, against a very blue sky. Thank you for posting all of
    > these. I learned the phrase "red flare" from the photo-editing company
    > (British) whose software I use, and it's only in overcast or rain that
    > my reds do not appear blotchy.


    Which suggests that the problem may be that the reds you're
    photographing are fluorescent, since those conditions cut out the UV
    that the fluorescence exploits.

    --
    Chris Malcolm
     
    Chris Malcolm, Apr 13, 2010
    #7
  8. Bubba

    Martin Brown Guest

    Bubba wrote:
    > On Apr 13, 5:09 am, DanP <> wrote:
    >> I don't see a reson to complain about the reds:http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=sx1 red&m=text

    >
    > They're gorgeous shots. Frankly, I see some flare in the fourth
    > photograph in the first (top) row, where the bright red leaves are in
    > bright sunlight, against a very blue sky. Thank you for posting all of


    Are you aware that the images appear in a different order and selections
    each time you press refresh ? I saw no red leaves on a blue sky.

    If you want to refer to one image post a direct link. The photo in the
    position you describe was a close up of yellow stamens against a red
    flower. Even better post one of your own which actually shows this
    mythical problem you keep harping on about.

    > these. I learned the phrase "red flare" from the photo-editing company
    > (British) whose software I use, and it's only in overcast or rain that
    > my reds do not appear blotchy.
    >
    > Great work!


    You are may be tending to burn out the highlights in the red channel
    then in the initial exposure in strong light. There is a small price to
    be paid for having a Bayer sensor in terms of colour resolution but I
    would never describe it as a red flair. I suggest you unlearn it.

    Most common flair at edge of field is purple or green from chromatic
    aberrations in the lens.

    Regards,
    Martin Brown
     
    Martin Brown, Apr 14, 2010
    #8
  9. Bubba

    Chrlz Guest

    On Apr 14, 8:09 am, Chris Malcolm <> wrote:
    > Bubba <> wrote:
    > > On Apr 13, 5:09?am, DanP <> wrote:

    >
    > >> I don't see a reson to complain about the reds:http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=sx1 red&m=text

    > > They're gorgeous shots. Frankly, I see some flare in the fourth
    > > photograph in the first (top) row, where the bright red leaves are in
    > > bright sunlight, against a very blue sky. Thank you for posting all of
    > > these. I learned the phrase "red flare" from the photo-editing company
    > > (British) whose software I use, and it's only in overcast or rain that
    > > my reds do not appear blotchy.

    >
    > Which suggests that the problem may be that the reds you're
    > photographing are fluorescent, since those conditions cut out the UV
    > that the fluorescence exploits.
    >
    > --
    > Chris Malcolm


    Exactly. As you told him in the other thread, yes? And shouldn't it
    be "irredescent"... :eek:) sorry.

    I was always under the impression that the blown reds issue was indeed
    caused by the non-visible high levels of near infrared (same problem
    at the other end, with near UV) and also the chroma subsampling as
    mentioned above.

    Different cameras use different filtering, sensors and processing so
    it will vary, and it may eb that the poster has just had bad luck with
    his subjects - *but who could tell if he won't post examples*???? I'd
    like to see the exif on any examples, to take a long hard look at the
    camera settings..

    If you have a camera with an issue, then the advice to use a pale
    green filter (or an IR-cut filter, maybe?) was correct, as was
    shooting raw.
     
    Chrlz, Apr 14, 2010
    #9
  10. Bubba

    Bubba Guest

    On Apr 14, 3:33 am, Martin Brown <|||>
    wrote:
    >
    > You are may be tending to burn out the highlights in the red channel
    > then in the initial exposure in strong light. There is a small price to
    > be paid for having a Bayer sensor in terms of colour resolution but I
    > would never describe it as a red flair. I suggest you unlearn it.
    >
    > Most common flair at edge of field is purple or green from chromatic
    > aberrations in the lens.


    I'm sorry, but I don't understand the above. Because I've elicited
    such (perplexing) rancor, maybe I should just rephrase the question.
    If I were to choose, say, a Canon G11 (which allows shooting in RAW)
    over a SX1 (which has the CMOS), would the problems that I have
    articulated them that I have with reds/pinks/oranges--and that you
    have articulated in a way I do not comprehend--be less likely to
    happen? (I would purchase a green filter!)
     
    Bubba, Apr 15, 2010
    #10
  11. Bubba

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Bubba <> wrote:
    >On Apr 14, 3:33 am, Martin Brown <|||>
    >wrote:
    >>
    >> You are may be tending to burn out the highlights in the red channel
    >> then in the initial exposure in strong light. There is a small price to
    >> be paid for having a Bayer sensor in terms of colour resolution but I
    >> would never describe it as a red flair. I suggest you unlearn it.
    >>
    >> Most common flair at edge of field is purple or green from chromatic
    >> aberrations in the lens.

    >
    >I'm sorry, but I don't understand the above. Because I've elicited
    >such (perplexing) rancor, maybe I should just rephrase the question.
    >If I were to choose, say, a Canon G11 (which allows shooting in RAW)
    >over a SX1 (which has the CMOS), would the problems that I have
    >articulated them that I have with reds/pinks/oranges-


    The problem is that you have NOT described your problems with reds.
    You've complained that oyu don't like the reds but without knowing
    specifics it is almost impssoble to say what your problem might be.

    --
    Ray Fischer
     
    Ray Fischer, Apr 15, 2010
    #11
  12. Bubba

    Martin Brown Guest

    Bubba wrote:
    > On Apr 14, 3:33 am, Martin Brown <|||>
    > wrote:
    >> You are may be tending to burn out the highlights in the red channel
    >> then in the initial exposure in strong light. There is a small price to
    >> be paid for having a Bayer sensor in terms of colour resolution but I
    >> would never describe it as a red flair. I suggest you unlearn it.
    >>
    >> Most common flair at edge of field is purple or green from chromatic
    >> aberrations in the lens.

    >
    > I'm sorry, but I don't understand the above. Because I've elicited
    > such (perplexing) rancor, maybe I should just rephrase the question.


    Until you actually post a concrete *example* of the problem that you are
    trying to describe it is completely impossible to answer your question.

    A picture is worth a thousand words or more in a photography group.

    > If I were to choose, say, a Canon G11 (which allows shooting in RAW)
    > over a SX1 (which has the CMOS), would the problems that I have
    > articulated them that I have with reds/pinks/oranges--and that you
    > have articulated in a way I do not comprehend--be less likely to
    > happen? (I would purchase a green filter!)


    You are not articulating anything that makes sense. Show us an image!

    Clueless. Go and buy a Foveon sensor based camera that will have a red
    photosensor for every pixel which may help. Or show us an image!

    Regards,
    Martin Brown
     
    Martin Brown, Apr 15, 2010
    #12
  13. Bubba

    Bubba Guest

    On Apr 15, 2:00 pm, Martin Brown <|||>
    wrote:
    >
    > Until you actually post a concrete *example* of the problem that you are
    > trying to describe it is completely impossible to answer your question.


    I don't know how to post a picture to a newsgroup. A Flicker account?

    > Clueless. Go and buy a Foveon sensor based camera that will have a red
    > photosensor for every pixel which may help. Or show us an image!


    WOW!!! I never even heard of Sigma. I read a ton of reviews of a 14MP
    camera, and most people seem to think it's the next best thing to
    nylon stockings. This is indeed the issue I'm writing about--the
    "aliasing" that I get from my Canons. If I buy a SX1, and I still get
    the blotch, I'll lose my mind. The only question--I've only had Canons
    (had a DLSR, sent it back). What's the deal with no auto-focus on the
    cameras with Foveon sensors, and are there any competitors to Sigma
    that have them? Leica? Thanks!!!
     
    Bubba, Apr 16, 2010
    #13
  14. Bubba

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Bubba <> wrote:
    >On Apr 15, 2:00 pm, Martin Brown <|||>
    >wrote:
    >>
    >> Until you actually post a concrete *example* of the problem that you are
    >> trying to describe it is completely impossible to answer your question.

    >
    >I don't know how to post a picture to a newsgroup. A Flicker account?
    >
    >> Clueless. Go and buy a Foveon sensor based camera that will have a red
    >> photosensor for every pixel which may help. Or show us an image!

    >
    >WOW!!! I never even heard of Sigma. I read a ton of reviews of a 14MP
    >camera, and most people seem to think it's the next best thing to
    >nylon stockings.


    Sigma doesn't make a 14MP camera. They make a 3.6MP camera that they
    claim is 14MP.

    --
    Ray Fischer
     
    Ray Fischer, Apr 16, 2010
    #14
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