camera with high dynamic range ??

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by minnesotti, Jul 12, 2006.

  1. minnesotti

    minnesotti Guest

    I would like to buy a compact or pocketable P&S camera. It should have
    a high sensitivity, so that I could shoot the night scenes in the city
    with excellent quality. I heard that FujiFilm FinePix F10/F11/F30 has a
    good CCD sensor allowing to shoot in dark... however, I never held it
    in my hands and I read the reviews that its sensitivity is not really
    that high, and the image has a "watercolor" quality in it. Besides, I
    do not think that its lens is sharp enough as say Panasonic FZ30 or
    LX1. I presume that the camera with the desired qualities should have
    larger pixels, and thus a larger sensor... which means the lens should
    be big, too... and I want a pocketable camera.

    If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    range. I want to shoot both bright sun-lit sceneces and to resolve
    details in shadows, in the same picture. Again... I am not aware of
    such a camera. Can you advise any ? Thanks.

    ...
    minnesotti, Jul 12, 2006
    #1
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  2. On 12 Jul 2006 05:42:27 -0700, minnesotti wrote:

    >I would like to buy a compact or pocketable P&S camera. It should have
    >a high sensitivity, so that I could shoot the night scenes in the city
    >with excellent quality. I heard that FujiFilm FinePix F10/F11/F30 has a
    >good CCD sensor allowing to shoot in dark... however, I never held it
    >in my hands and I read the reviews that its sensitivity is not really
    >that high, and the image has a "watercolor" quality in it. Besides, I
    >do not think that its lens is sharp enough as say Panasonic FZ30 or
    >LX1. I presume that the camera with the desired qualities should have
    >larger pixels, and thus a larger sensor... which means the lens should
    >be big, too... and I want a pocketable camera.
    >
    >If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    >range. I want to shoot both bright sun-lit sceneces and to resolve
    >details in shadows, in the same picture. Again... I am not aware of
    >such a camera. Can you advise any ? Thanks.


    The theory says that CMOS sensors would be best for you, because
    they have an incredibly large contrast range up to 6 orders of
    magnitude.

    I don't know about consumer cameras with CMOS sensors though.

    Hans-Georg

    --
    No mail, please.
    Hans-Georg Michna, Jul 12, 2006
    #2
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  3. On 12 Jul 2006 05:42:27 -0700, "minnesotti" <>
    wrote:

    >I would like to buy a compact or pocketable P&S camera. It should have
    >a high sensitivity, so that I could shoot the night scenes in the city
    >with excellent quality. I heard that FujiFilm FinePix F10/F11/F30 has a
    >good CCD sensor allowing to shoot in dark... however, I never held it
    >in my hands and I read the reviews that its sensitivity is not really
    >that high, and the image has a "watercolor" quality in it. Besides, I
    >do not think that its lens is sharp enough as say Panasonic FZ30 or
    >LX1. I presume that the camera with the desired qualities should have
    >larger pixels, and thus a larger sensor... which means the lens should
    >be big, too... and I want a pocketable camera.
    >
    >If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    >range. I want to shoot both bright sun-lit sceneces and to resolve
    >details in shadows, in the same picture. Again... I am not aware of
    >such a camera. Can you advise any ? Thanks.


    You'll never get it in a p/s. it's even hard with the full frame
    Canons with CMOS sensors.

    Check the Canon 5D or if you really want to go there the MF backs like
    Phase 0ne and such.

    Also when you do in camera jpg's you through away 1-2 stops of dynamic
    range.




    *****************************************************

    "It just so happens we be Texicans. Texican is nothin'
    but a human man way out on a limb, this year and next.
    Maybe for a hundred more. But I don't think it'll
    be forever. Some day, this country's gonna be a
    fine good place to be."

    "Mrs. Jorgensen"
    from "The Searchers"
    John A. Stovall, Jul 12, 2006
    #3
  4. minnesotti wrote:

    > I would like to buy a compact or pocketable P&S camera. It should have
    > a high sensitivity, so that I could shoot the night scenes in the city
    > with excellent quality.


    No, high sensitivity will just give you lots of noise. For quality stick to
    the lowest ISO with a long exposure.

    > I heard that FujiFilm FinePix F10/F11/F30 has
    > a good CCD sensor allowing to shoot in dark... however, I never held
    > it in my hands and I read the reviews that its sensitivity is not
    > really that high, and the image has a "watercolor" quality in it.


    Sounds like overly-agressive noise reduction. Avoid it.

    > Besides, I do not think that its lens is sharp enough as say
    > Panasonic FZ30 or LX1. I presume that the camera with the desired
    > qualities should have larger pixels, and thus a larger sensor...
    > which means the lens should be big, too... and I want a pocketable
    > camera.
    >
    > If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    > range. I want to shoot both bright sun-lit sceneces and to resolve
    > details in shadows, in the same picture. Again... I am not aware of
    > such a camera. Can you advise any ? Thanks.


    You need a camera that can save in RAW mode. You convert the RAW image into
    a 16 bit per channel image then you can lighten the shadows to extract the
    details you want.

    The LX1 is an excellent choice of camera which is both pocketable and has
    RAW mode. It also has a very good lens, but is a little noisier than other
    cameras. This is probably due to less aggressive noise reduction - you can
    always add your own later, but you can't take it away, so arguably it's a
    good thing. One disadvantage is that the RAW files are exceedingly large,
    16MB per picture, only 52 per 1GB card.

    Still a good choice though, if you buy plenty of memory cards to go with it!

    Paul
    Paul Saunders, Jul 12, 2006
    #4
  5. John A. Stovall wrote:

    >> If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    >> range.


    > You'll never get it in a p/s.


    Yes, you will, any camera with RAW should do that. I measured 10-11 stops
    with my G3 a few years ago. The darkest few stops look a bit nasty, but
    they're quite acceptable provided you don't lighten the darkest shadows too
    much.

    You can always take multiple exposures and layer mask them if you want the
    best quality.

    Paul
    Paul Saunders, Jul 12, 2006
    #5
  6. minnesotti

    [BnH] Guest

    "Hans-Georg Michna" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > The theory says that CMOS sensors would be best for you, because
    > they have an incredibly large contrast range up to 6 orders of
    > magnitude.


    <--- any URL to support your comment ? I thought CCD is still the way to go
    for getting max DR.
    [BnH], Jul 12, 2006
    #6
  7. minnesotti

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>, Hans-Georg
    Michna says...

    > The theory says that CMOS sensors would be best for you, because
    > they have an incredibly large contrast range up to 6 orders of
    > magnitude.


    That is true only for the non-integrative type, which has a logarithmic
    response, but suffers from high noise levels (because you don't
    integrate over time - exposure time is basically 0). All other CMOS
    sensors which integrate the light over time don't have such a high
    dynamic range.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E300, E330 and E500 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus E330 resource - http://myolympus.org/E330/
    Alfred Molon, Jul 12, 2006
    #7
  8. minnesotti

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>, John A. Stovall
    says...
    > On 12 Jul 2006 05:42:27 -0700, "minnesotti" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >I would like to buy a compact or pocketable P&S camera. It should have
    > >a high sensitivity, so that I could shoot the night scenes in the city
    > >with excellent quality. I heard that FujiFilm FinePix F10/F11/F30 has a
    > >good CCD sensor allowing to shoot in dark... however, I never held it
    > >in my hands and I read the reviews that its sensitivity is not really
    > >that high, and the image has a "watercolor" quality in it. Besides, I
    > >do not think that its lens is sharp enough as say Panasonic FZ30 or
    > >LX1. I presume that the camera with the desired qualities should have
    > >larger pixels, and thus a larger sensor... which means the lens should
    > >be big, too... and I want a pocketable camera.
    > >
    > >If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    > >range. I want to shoot both bright sun-lit sceneces and to resolve
    > >details in shadows, in the same picture. Again... I am not aware of
    > >such a camera. Can you advise any ? Thanks.

    >
    > You'll never get it in a p/s. it's even hard with the full frame
    > Canons with CMOS sensors.
    >
    > Check the Canon 5D or if you really want to go there the MF backs like
    > Phase 0ne and such.


    Have you tried carrying that cameras in your pockets?
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E300, E330 and E500 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus E330 resource - http://myolympus.org/E330/
    Alfred Molon, Jul 12, 2006
    #8
  9. minnesotti wrote:

    > I would like to buy a compact or pocketable P&S camera. It should have
    > a high sensitivity, so that I could shoot the night scenes in the city
    > with excellent quality. I heard that FujiFilm FinePix F10/F11/F30 has a
    > good CCD sensor allowing to shoot in dark... however, I never held it
    > in my hands and I read the reviews that its sensitivity is not really
    > that high, and the image has a "watercolor" quality in it. Besides, I
    > do not think that its lens is sharp enough as say Panasonic FZ30 or
    > LX1. I presume that the camera with the desired qualities should have
    > larger pixels, and thus a larger sensor... which means the lens should
    > be big, too... and I want a pocketable camera.
    >
    > If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    > range. I want to shoot both bright sun-lit sceneces and to resolve
    > details in shadows, in the same picture. Again... I am not aware of
    > such a camera. Can you advise any ? Thanks.
    >
    > ..
    >

    Dynamic range is controlled by how many photons a pixel
    can collect and what the read noise is from that pixel.
    See:

    Procedures for Evaluating Digital Camera
    Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Capacities;
    Canon 1D Mark II Analysis
    http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2

    The Nikon D50 is here:
    http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d50

    To get high dynamic range, you need large pixels, which P&S
    cameras generally do not have (typically 3 to 6 times less
    photons than DSLRs). See tables 1, 2 and 3 at:
    http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.signal.to.noise
    for some data on other cameras. Unfortunately, there is
    not yet much data on P&S cameras compared to DSLRs.

    Roger
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Jul 13, 2006
    #9
  10. On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:07:18 +0200, Alfred Molon
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>, John A. Stovall
    >says...
    >> On 12 Jul 2006 05:42:27 -0700, "minnesotti" <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >I would like to buy a compact or pocketable P&S camera. It should have
    >> >a high sensitivity, so that I could shoot the night scenes in the city
    >> >with excellent quality. I heard that FujiFilm FinePix F10/F11/F30 has a
    >> >good CCD sensor allowing to shoot in dark... however, I never held it
    >> >in my hands and I read the reviews that its sensitivity is not really
    >> >that high, and the image has a "watercolor" quality in it. Besides, I
    >> >do not think that its lens is sharp enough as say Panasonic FZ30 or
    >> >LX1. I presume that the camera with the desired qualities should have
    >> >larger pixels, and thus a larger sensor... which means the lens should
    >> >be big, too... and I want a pocketable camera.
    >> >
    >> >If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    >> >range. I want to shoot both bright sun-lit sceneces and to resolve
    >> >details in shadows, in the same picture. Again... I am not aware of
    >> >such a camera. Can you advise any ? Thanks.

    >>
    >> You'll never get it in a p/s. it's even hard with the full frame
    >> Canons with CMOS sensors.
    >>
    >> Check the Canon 5D or if you really want to go there the MF backs like
    >> Phase 0ne and such.

    >
    >Have you tried carrying that cameras in your pockets?


    Yes, and the 5D with anything up to a 400/5.6 fits just fine in the
    inside pockets of my Domke vest.


    *****************************************************

    "It just so happens we be Texicans. Texican is nothin'
    but a human man way out on a limb, this year and next.
    Maybe for a hundred more. But I don't think it'll
    be forever. Some day, this country's gonna be a
    fine good place to be."

    "Mrs. Jorgensen"
    from "The Searchers"
    John A. Stovall, Jul 13, 2006
    #10
  11. On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:00:23 +0100, "Paul Saunders"
    <> wrote:

    >John A. Stovall wrote:
    >
    >>> If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    >>> range.

    >
    >> You'll never get it in a p/s.

    >
    >Yes, you will, any camera with RAW should do that. I measured 10-11 stops
    >with my G3 a few years ago. The darkest few stops look a bit nasty, but
    >they're quite acceptable provided you don't lighten the darkest shadows too
    >much.
    >
    >You can always take multiple exposures and layer mask them if you want the
    >best quality.
    >
    >Paul
    >


    Actually you do better to use HDR for multiple exposures.


    *****************************************************

    "It just so happens we be Texicans. Texican is nothin'
    but a human man way out on a limb, this year and next.
    Maybe for a hundred more. But I don't think it'll
    be forever. Some day, this country's gonna be a
    fine good place to be."

    "Mrs. Jorgensen"
    from "The Searchers"
    John A. Stovall, Jul 13, 2006
    #11
  12. On 7/13/06 5:35 AM, John A. Stovall wrote:
    > On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:00:23 +0100, "Paul Saunders"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> John A. Stovall wrote:
    >>
    >>>> If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    >>>> range.
    >>> You'll never get it in a p/s.

    >> Yes, you will, any camera with RAW should do that. I measured 10-11 stops
    >> with my G3 a few years ago. The darkest few stops look a bit nasty, but
    >> they're quite acceptable provided you don't lighten the darkest shadows too
    >> much.
    >>
    >> You can always take multiple exposures and layer mask them if you want the
    >> best quality.

    >
    > Actually you do better to use HDR for multiple exposures.


    HDR is not for everyone, as layer masks give much more control.
    Also, it's quite possible to get a nice bump in latitude by layering a
    few different developments from one RAW file.

    --
    John McWilliams

    ps JS- you sig delimiter has gone missing.
    John McWilliams, Jul 13, 2006
    #12
  13. John A. Stovall wrote:

    >> You can always take multiple exposures and layer mask them if you
    >> want the best quality.


    > Actually you do better to use HDR for multiple exposures.


    Depends. I've tried it both ways and I find layer masking works better for
    some kinds of shots, HDR for others, depends on the type of shot and the end
    result you want. For a simple sky/land split I find that layer masking
    works better, and quicker. I prefer HDR for shots that have a more complex
    mix of shadows and highlights, like sun-dappled foliage for example, or
    indoor shots with bright lights.

    Paul
    Paul Saunders, Jul 13, 2006
    #13
  14. minnesotti

    Guest

    minnesotti wrote:
    > I would like to buy a compact or pocketable P&S camera. It should have
    > a high sensitivity, so that I could shoot the night scenes in the city
    > with excellent quality. I heard that FujiFilm FinePix F10/F11/F30 has a
    > good CCD sensor allowing to shoot in dark... however, I never held it
    > in my hands and I read the reviews that its sensitivity is not really
    > that high, and the image has a "watercolor" quality in it. Besides, I
    > do not think that its lens is sharp enough as say Panasonic FZ30 or
    > LX1.


    The F10 which I have experience with does have a tendency to blow out
    highlights. ISO400 is very good, though, with very, very little
    evidence of noise-reduction-induced smearing. The smearing (painterly)
    quality is stronger at ISO800 but you'll likely never notice it in a
    5x7 print.

    As for sharpness, you need to take the sensor/image processor/lens
    quality as a single package rather than choosing based on lens or
    sensor alone. In other words, you need to look at the final results.
    The Panasonics have comparatively bad noise issues at ISO100+ and if
    you're shooting in JPG mode, you don't have the same option of cleaning
    the noise as you do with cleaning noise in a RAW file. In other words,
    I don't think a PC-based noise reduction program working on a JPG file
    will necessarily be just as good or better than a camera's built-in
    noise reduction program working with the RAW file.

    I just went through the whole what-P&S-should-I-buy rigamarole and what
    I did was d/l full-size JPG images from the candidate cameras and apply
    noise reduction to them to see what final results I could expect to get
    at the highest ISO speed that I required (ISO400). For MY needs the
    Canon A610 provided the right combination of features and image
    quality. The F10 was lacking in features and hampered by the
    ridiculous charging dongle it used. My ideal would be the F10 sensor
    and image processor in the A610 body. Whether or not Fuji'll ever make
    something like that remains to be seen.

    [snip]
    > If there is no such camera, then I want a camera with a high dynamic
    > range. I want to shoot both bright sun-lit sceneces and to resolve
    > details in shadows, in the same picture. Again... I am not aware of
    > such a camera. Can you advise any ? Thanks.


    Wait 5 years. ;-)


    GeoBC
    , Jul 13, 2006
    #14
  15. minnesotti

    minnesotti Guest

    OK, guys, in another thread I learnt about the camera Epson R-D1. It is
    small (pocketable) yet it has a large dSLR-like CCD sensor, 16 mm x 24
    mm,
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Epson/epson_rd1.asp

    The large sensor has large pixels which can fit more photons. This
    means it has more dynamic range.

    This toy is what I need. But it has an un-toy price of US$3k...

    ...
    minnesotti, Jul 14, 2006
    #15
  16. minnesotti

    J. Clarke Guest

    minnesotti wrote:

    > OK, guys, in another thread I learnt about the camera Epson R-D1. It is
    > small (pocketable) yet it has a large dSLR-like CCD sensor, 16 mm x 24
    > mm,
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Epson/epson_rd1.asp
    >
    > The large sensor has large pixels which can fit more photons. This
    > means it has more dynamic range.
    >
    > This toy is what I need. But it has an un-toy price of US$3k...


    Whoa, _stop_. The RD-1 is not what you think it is. To call it
    "pocketable" is at least a bit of a stretch. The dimensions dpreview shows
    are for the body--put a lens on it and it gets thicker, how much thicker
    depends on the lens--a collapsible Summicron won't add much thickness when
    collapsed but it will add some. It won't really be a whole lot smaller
    than a Pentax with the 40mm compact lens and for the price you can get a
    _lot_ more capability out of the Pentax system.

    Think "Leica Digital M" and you're pretty much in the niche the RD-1
    occupies. If that's the place you want to be (and it's a good one, but
    expensive and somewhat in the "different drummer" category) then the RD
    would be a nice option, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless they
    had made a conscious choice to go the rangefinder route rather than the SLR
    route and who fully understood the tradeoffs being made. If you're at the
    level of considering an RD-1 as an alternative to a Fuji F30, I mean no
    offense when I say this but unless your financial situation is such that
    you can spend $3500 on an impulse buy you need to get a _lot_ more
    experience before you're ready to make that decision.

    If you want a _pocket_ camera for low light the F30 is probably your best
    bet. If you are willing to forego pocketability any APS-C DSLR with an
    f/1.4 lens will give you very, very good low light capability. And you can
    get _both_ for the price of the RD-1 and have enough change left over for a
    good tripod and good "walking around" zoom for the DSLR and maybe a good
    flash.


    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
    J. Clarke, Jul 15, 2006
    #16
  17. minnesotti

    bmoag Guest

    What you want is a camera that uses an imaging sensor technology known as
    "color negative film."
    Interestingly this technology uses the irreversible effect of light on
    chemical compounds made of silver. Who'd have thought?
    Where electronic sensors have a dynamic rage estimated at between .1 and .5
    f stops this "film" is said to have a dynamic range of over 5 f stops.
    A curious benefit of this technology is that it uses lenses of a large
    enough focal length that they can be stopped down below f8 without
    refraction effects even in p&s form factor cameras.
    Check it out.
    bmoag, Jul 16, 2006
    #17
  18. minnesotti

    jeremy Guest

    "bmoag" <> wrote in message
    news:Hayug.131652$...

    > What you want is a camera that uses an imaging sensor technology known as
    > "color negative film."
    >


    The folks at Carl Zeiss, who know a lot more about this subject than I do,
    make the following statement in their Zeiss Ikon Camera System Brochure
    (http://www.zeissikon.com/files/ZeissIkon_English.pdf):


    WHY FILM AND NOT DIGITAL?

    "Why introduce a film-based camera system when mainstream photography is
    more digital than ever before? The answer is simple: our passion for the
    highest possible image quality. We know photography inside and out--from
    lens design to camera and sensor material performance. Simply put, a camera
    system is only as strong as its weakest link . . . Yet for now, the new
    Zeiss Ikon system with its rangefinder design and wide-angle, top-notch
    lenses is based on the optimal sensor material for discerning 35mm
    rangefinder photographers: film.

    'When digital sensor technology takes another leap or two, accepting the
    high incident angles of a wide-angle M-mount lens to the corners of a full
    format sensor, you can count on us to come up with high performance digital
    systems that will satisfy even the truly passionate."
    jeremy, Jul 16, 2006
    #18
  19. "jeremy" <> wrote:
    >"bmoag" <> wrote in message
    >news:Hayug.131652$...
    >
    >> What you want is a camera that uses an imaging sensor technology known as
    >> "color negative film."
    >>

    >
    >The folks at Carl Zeiss, who know a lot more about this subject than I do,
    >make the following statement in their Zeiss Ikon Camera System Brochure
    >(http://www.zeissikon.com/files/ZeissIkon_English.pdf):
    >
    >WHY FILM AND NOT DIGITAL?
    >
    >"Why introduce a film-based camera system when mainstream photography is
    >more digital than ever before? The answer is simple: our passion for the
    >highest possible image quality. We know photography inside and out--from
    >lens design to camera and sensor material performance. Simply put, a camera
    >system is only as strong as its weakest link . . . Yet for now, the new
    >Zeiss Ikon system with its rangefinder design and wide-angle, top-notch
    >lenses is based on the optimal sensor material for discerning 35mm
    >rangefinder photographers: film.
    >
    >'When digital sensor technology takes another leap or two, accepting the
    >high incident angles of a wide-angle M-mount lens to the corners of a full
    >format sensor, you can count on us to come up with high performance digital
    >systems that will satisfy even the truly passionate."


    Both Canon and Nikon have digital systems that out perform film.
    (Granted the Canon may not quite meet the "accepting the high
    incident angles, and Nikon does not do that with a "full format
    sensor", but they do both out perform film.)

    --
    Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
    Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
    Floyd L. Davidson, Jul 17, 2006
    #19
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