Camera Raw 4.0 update

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Hoshisato, May 4, 2007.

  1. Hoshisato

    Hoshisato Guest

    Hoshisato, May 4, 2007
    #1
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  2. On 4 May 2007 00:22:21 -0700, Hoshisato <> wrote:

    >Just to let you know that a Camera Raw 4.0 update is available for
    >Photoshop Elements 5 which seems to add quite some more features. I
    >have been using the 'Update' option from the Photoshop menu from time
    >to time but it had also missed that a Adobe Photoshop Elements 5.0.2
    >update was available.
    >
    >http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=40&platform=Windows


    It has been for a while. I'm curious why ACR 4.0 is available for PSE5
    but not CS2.
     
    Oliver Costich, May 4, 2007
    #2
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  3. Hoshisato

    =\(8\) Guest

    "Oliver Costich" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 4 May 2007 00:22:21 -0700, Hoshisato <> wrote:
    >
    >>Just to let you know that a Camera Raw 4.0 update is available for
    >>Photoshop Elements 5 which seems to add quite some more features. I
    >>have been using the 'Update' option from the Photoshop menu from time
    >>to time but it had also missed that a Adobe Photoshop Elements 5.0.2
    >>update was available.
    >>
    >>http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=40&platform=Windows

    >
    > It has been for a while. I'm curious why ACR 4.0 is available for PSE5
    > but not CS2.



    Because it will be at least a year before we see the update to PSE5. Besides
    you don't get all of the features of ACR 4.0 in PSE5, you get what amounts
    to the light version.

    =(8)
     
    =\(8\), May 5, 2007
    #3
  4. On Fri, 4 May 2007 21:39:37 -0700, "=\(8\)" <> wrote:

    >"Oliver Costich" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On 4 May 2007 00:22:21 -0700, Hoshisato <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Just to let you know that a Camera Raw 4.0 update is available for
    >>>Photoshop Elements 5 which seems to add quite some more features. I
    >>>have been using the 'Update' option from the Photoshop menu from time
    >>>to time but it had also missed that a Adobe Photoshop Elements 5.0.2
    >>>update was available.
    >>>
    >>>http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=40&platform=Windows

    >>
    >> It has been for a while. I'm curious why ACR 4.0 is available for PSE5
    >> but not CS2.

    >
    >
    >Because it will be at least a year before we see the update to PSE5. Besides
    >you don't get all of the features of ACR 4.0 in PSE5, you get what amounts
    >to the light version.
    >
    >=(8)


    As has always been the case for the ACR functions in PSE vs full
    Photoshop.

    Are you talking about an update to PSE5 or an upgrade to PSE6? Best I
    can tell from a Google search the time between the release of PSE4 and
    PSE5 was just about a year putting PSE6 out sometime in September.
     
    Oliver Costich, May 5, 2007
    #4
  5. Hoshisato

    =\(8\) Guest

    "Oliver Costich" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 4 May 2007 21:39:37 -0700, "=\(8\)" <> wrote:
    >
    >>"Oliver Costich" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On 4 May 2007 00:22:21 -0700, Hoshisato <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Just to let you know that a Camera Raw 4.0 update is available for
    >>>>Photoshop Elements 5 which seems to add quite some more features. I
    >>>>have been using the 'Update' option from the Photoshop menu from time
    >>>>to time but it had also missed that a Adobe Photoshop Elements 5.0.2
    >>>>update was available.
    >>>>
    >>>>http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=40&platform=Windows
    >>>
    >>> It has been for a while. I'm curious why ACR 4.0 is available for PSE5
    >>> but not CS2.

    >>
    >>
    >>Because it will be at least a year before we see the update to PSE5.
    >>Besides
    >>you don't get all of the features of ACR 4.0 in PSE5, you get what amounts
    >>to the light version.
    >>
    >>=(8)

    >
    > As has always been the case for the ACR functions in PSE vs full
    > Photoshop.
    >
    > Are you talking about an update to PSE5 or an upgrade to PSE6? Best I
    > can tell from a Google search the time between the release of PSE4 and
    > PSE5 was just about a year putting PSE6 out sometime in September.



    I am talking about PSE6 and because of all of the major Adobe applications
    being updated and released almost at the same time (save their video editing
    stuff which comes out in a few months) this has caused a total shift in
    Adobe release schedules. Which means what came before won't impact what
    comes now. We will not see PSE6 until 2008. If it was just a few months away
    Adobe wouldn't have given such a major update of ACR away for free. Adobe
    has always used ACR to help force people to upgrade. This is why ACR 4
    doesn't work with CS2, they want to force upgrades. I would also like to
    point out that if PSE6 was coming out this year Adobe wouldn't have give ACR
    4 as an option because they would simply tell PSE5 years to do what they are
    telling CS2 users to do when it comes to new camera that aren't and won't be
    supported by ACR 3.7 and that is to use DNG Converter to convert the RAW
    files from the unsupported cameras to DNG that WILL load in to ACR 3.7 so
    there would be no reason then for Adobe to give ACR 4 to PSE 5 users. Since
    they are that means PSE 6 won't be out until next year (I figure late Q1
    early Q2) they figure that that is just too long of a period to expect
    people to use the work around.

    It is also important to note that unlike previous versions of Elements which
    were very heavily based in the full version of Adobe Photoshop PSE 5 marks a
    very different design and release philosophy compared to what came before.
    PSE is now more than ever more different from Photoshop than it is similar.
    Because of PSE being more on its own and less tied to the whims of the full
    version of Photoshop there is now no reason to expect PSE to follow
    Photoshop anymore. In fact PSE 5 came out before Photoshop CS2, that was the
    first time that has happened, all PSE's before came out about 6 months after
    Photoshop. 5 came out several months before, another indication that PSE is
    now on its own development cycle.

    =(8)
     
    =\(8\), May 5, 2007
    #5
  6. On May 5, 4:22 pm, "=\(8\)" <> wrote:
    [snip]
    > If it was just a few months away
    > Adobe wouldn't have given such a major update of ACR away for free. Adobe
    > has always used ACR to help force people to upgrade. This is why ACR 4
    > doesn't work with CS2, they want to force upgrades. I would also like to
    > point out that if PSE6 was coming out this year Adobe wouldn't have give ACR
    > 4 as an option because they would simply tell PSE5 years to do what they are
    > telling CS2 users to do when it comes to new camera that aren't and won't be
    > supported by ACR 3.7 and that is to use DNG Converter to convert the RAW
    > files from the unsupported cameras to DNG that WILL load in to ACR 3.7 so
    > there would be no reason then for Adobe to give ACR 4 to PSE 5 users.

    [snip]

    I have a different interpretation of Adobe's policy:

    1. To be competitive, when new users consider the latest Adobe
    products in a particular series, such as the latest Photoshop
    Elements, the latest Premier Elements, or the latest Photoshop, they
    need to see a raw converter that supports recent cameras and works
    like the competition - it opens the camera's raw files directly.

    Adobe can't compete with other companies that do that if Adobe
    themselves tell prospective users they have to use the DNG route. It
    would probably be too much for many of them to take in, and would make
    the Adobe product sound uncompetitive. At least half of raw shooters
    perhaps sometimes use products that don't support DNG, and Adobe would
    risk rejecting those potential users. So the latest raw handling code
    needs to work with those latest products.

    2. Lightroom greatly increased the power of Adobe's core raw-handling
    code, with lots of new controls and features. This caused (at least)
    two potential problems. How do users of Lightroom share their edited
    raw files with users of Photoshop/ACR? And why should people who have
    paid lots of money for Photoshop have fewer raw-handling features than
    people who have paid less for Lightroom?

    Adobe solved both problems by making the controls in ACR 4.0 similar
    to the controls in Lightroom, generating the same editing-metadata.
    (Possibly a superset, in fact - I don't know a way of setting many
    points on the Curve in Lightroom then controlling them individually,
    while that is possible in ACR). So now Adobe have a new ACR, which
    obviously also supports recent cameras. Their most economical approach
    is to make that work with the other products (see "1"); and keep
    updating it for new cameras.

    3. For different reasons, Adobe want there to be a common raw format -
    something equivalent to TIFF, but at a different place in the
    workflow. Hence DNG. This will enable the interworking of many
    components from many suppliers. Adobe know that the best, perhaps
    only, way of establishing a new format is to give something away (cf.
    PDF). So they give away the DNG Converter.

    A consequence of this is that DNG can be used for interchange between
    the latest cameras and earlier Adobe products. I don't know whether
    this was planned, or simply an unwanted consequence, as far as Adobe
    were concerned. But what it did was stop new cameras forcing people to
    to upgrade to new versions of Adobe products. No longer do new cameras
    "force" upgrades. Those days are gone. As DNG becomes more ubiquitous,
    this will apply to other products from other companies as well. The
    rules have now changed - but photographers have to adapt in order to
    benefit.

    --
    Barry Pearson
    http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/photography/
     
    Barry Pearson, May 5, 2007
    #6
  7. Hoshisato

    =\(8\) Guest

    "Barry Pearson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On May 5, 4:22 pm, "=\(8\)" <> wrote:
    > [snip]
    >> If it was just a few months away
    >> Adobe wouldn't have given such a major update of ACR away for free. Adobe
    >> has always used ACR to help force people to upgrade. This is why ACR 4
    >> doesn't work with CS2, they want to force upgrades. I would also like to
    >> point out that if PSE6 was coming out this year Adobe wouldn't have give
    >> ACR
    >> 4 as an option because they would simply tell PSE5 years to do what they
    >> are
    >> telling CS2 users to do when it comes to new camera that aren't and won't
    >> be
    >> supported by ACR 3.7 and that is to use DNG Converter to convert the RAW
    >> files from the unsupported cameras to DNG that WILL load in to ACR 3.7 so
    >> there would be no reason then for Adobe to give ACR 4 to PSE 5 users.

    > [snip]
    >
    > I have a different interpretation of Adobe's policy:
    >
    > 1. To be competitive, when new users consider the latest Adobe
    > products in a particular series, such as the latest Photoshop
    > Elements, the latest Premier Elements, or the latest Photoshop, they
    > need to see a raw converter that supports recent cameras and works
    > like the competition - it opens the camera's raw files directly.
    >
    > Adobe can't compete with other companies that do that if Adobe
    > themselves tell prospective users they have to use the DNG route. It
    > would probably be too much for many of them to take in, and would make
    > the Adobe product sound uncompetitive. At least half of raw shooters
    > perhaps sometimes use products that don't support DNG, and Adobe would
    > risk rejecting those potential users. So the latest raw handling code
    > needs to work with those latest products.
    >
    > 2. Lightroom greatly increased the power of Adobe's core raw-handling
    > code, with lots of new controls and features. This caused (at least)
    > two potential problems. How do users of Lightroom share their edited
    > raw files with users of Photoshop/ACR? And why should people who have
    > paid lots of money for Photoshop have fewer raw-handling features than
    > people who have paid less for Lightroom?
    >
    > Adobe solved both problems by making the controls in ACR 4.0 similar
    > to the controls in Lightroom, generating the same editing-metadata.
    > (Possibly a superset, in fact - I don't know a way of setting many
    > points on the Curve in Lightroom then controlling them individually,
    > while that is possible in ACR). So now Adobe have a new ACR, which
    > obviously also supports recent cameras. Their most economical approach
    > is to make that work with the other products (see "1"); and keep
    > updating it for new cameras.
    >
    > 3. For different reasons, Adobe want there to be a common raw format -
    > something equivalent to TIFF, but at a different place in the
    > workflow. Hence DNG. This will enable the interworking of many
    > components from many suppliers. Adobe know that the best, perhaps
    > only, way of establishing a new format is to give something away (cf.
    > PDF). So they give away the DNG Converter.
    >
    > A consequence of this is that DNG can be used for interchange between
    > the latest cameras and earlier Adobe products. I don't know whether
    > this was planned, or simply an unwanted consequence, as far as Adobe
    > were concerned. But what it did was stop new cameras forcing people to
    > to upgrade to new versions of Adobe products. No longer do new cameras
    > "force" upgrades. Those days are gone. As DNG becomes more ubiquitous,
    > this will apply to other products from other companies as well. The
    > rules have now changed - but photographers have to adapt in order to
    > benefit.
    >
    > --
    > Barry Pearson
    > http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/photography/
    >


    Interesting, though not supported by Adobe's comments, or their past
    history. You really should try some of the Adobe podcasts. It is amazing the
    stuff they tell you about things even before they are announced by
    marketing. Adobe made it very clear with the release of PSE5 that they
    wanted it off on its own development cycle, they wanted it to become less
    like Photoshop Lite and more like a product that stands on it's own. PSE 5
    is a very large step in that direction especially compared to previous
    versions of PSE which were basically Photoshop Lite.

    Since Elements is now off on its own with a design team separate from
    Photoshop. They have to make certain allowances for ACR. Also, as I pointed
    out being able to use ACR 4 in PSE 5 isn't all that major of a thing since
    PSE has basically a lite feature poor ACR compared to the full version of
    Photoshop. Now I have not used PSE 5 much but it wouldn't surprise me if ACR
    4 in PSE 5 lacks all of the new things in ACR and just offers the same
    controls as ACR 3.7 did in PSE 5. This would allow them to continue to offer
    the camera support without really giving anything much away at least in the
    way of the massive improvements in features in ACR 4. Even if they do offer
    some new controls they aren't going to be that numorouse.

    I think you are trying to be to complex about what Adobe is doing instead of
    looking at the simple path which is more than likely what Adobe is taking.
    Adobe isn't going to give anything major away free, not when they use it to
    force upgrades. Meaning they aren't going to give you a new car with ACR 4
    in PSE5 when they are using ACR 4 as a way to force people to upgrade to
    CS3. I just wouldn't make sense and would more than likely just piss off
    even more people.

    =(8)
     
    =\(8\), May 6, 2007
    #7
  8. On May 6, 7:00 am, "=\(8\)" <> wrote:
    > "Barry Pearson" <> wrote in message
    > > On May 5, 4:22 pm, "=\(8\)" <> wrote:
    > > [snip]
    > >> If it was just a few months away
    > >> Adobe wouldn't have given such a major update of ACR away for free. Adobe
    > >> has always used ACR to help force people to upgrade. This is why ACR 4
    > >> doesn't work with CS2, they want to force upgrades. I would also like to
    > >> point out that if PSE6 was coming out this year Adobe wouldn't have give
    > >> ACR
    > >> 4 as an option because they would simply tell PSE5 years to do what they
    > >> are
    > >> telling CS2 users to do when it comes to new camera that aren't and won't
    > >> be
    > >> supported by ACR 3.7 and that is to use DNG Converter to convert the RAW
    > >> files from the unsupported cameras to DNG that WILL load in to ACR 3.7 so
    > >> there would be no reason then for Adobe to give ACR 4 to PSE 5 users.

    > > [snip]

    >
    > > I have a different interpretation of Adobe's policy:

    [snip]
    > Interesting, though not supported by Adobe's comments, or their past
    > history.

    [snip]
    > I think you are trying to be to complex about what Adobe is doing instead of
    > looking at the simple path which is more than likely what Adobe is taking.
    > Adobe isn't going to give anything major away free, not when they use it to
    > force upgrades. Meaning they aren't going to give you a new car with ACR 4
    > in PSE5 when they are using ACR 4 as a way to force people to upgrade to
    > CS3. I just wouldn't make sense and would more than likely just piss off
    > even more people.


    I can't see where your statements that I snipped above contradict what
    I said. I too am sure that ACR 4.0 appears crippled in PSE, even
    though I can't test that. I didn't say otherwise.

    Probably my main point was that Adobe would have shipped ACR 4.0 with
    PSE whatever the date for the next upgrade of PSE. They would not have
    expected people buying the latest PSE at any time to rely on the DNG
    route for latest cameras, because that would be uncompetitive. So
    shipping ACR 4.0 with PSE probably isn't a clue to the release date
    for PSE6.

    And one of my secondary points was that Adobe don't force upgrades of
    PS through new camera support. I don't actually think the word "force"
    is appropriate when talking about ACR.

    --
    Barry Pearson
    http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/photography/
     
    Barry Pearson, May 6, 2007
    #8
  9. =(8) wrote:

    > Adobe isn't going to give anything major away free, not
    > when they use it to force upgrades. Meaning they aren't going to give
    > you a new car with ACR 4 in PSE5 when they are using ACR 4 as a way to
    > force people to upgrade to CS3. I just wouldn't make sense and would
    > more than likely just piss off even more people.


    I was hoping for a toaster oven, at least.....

    But, seriously, folks, thanks for the discussion; illuminating are your
    and Barry's observations.

    --
    john mcwilliams
     
    John McWilliams, May 6, 2007
    #9
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