Buying new digital camera

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Jake29, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Jake29

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 19:43:46 UTC+1, Tony Cooper wrote:
    > On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 10:36:44 -0400, nospam <>
    >
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >In article <>, Tony Cooper

    >
    > ><> wrote:

    >
    > >

    >
    > >> >> I was in Target on Friday, and all their demo/display cameras were in

    >
    > >> >> anti-theft holders, on retractable cables and hooked up to a power

    >
    > >> >> supply system.

    >
    > >> >> ...and they had a good 60+ cameras to choose from.

    >
    > >> >

    >
    > >> >i was in best buy earlier today because it was next door to another

    >
    > >> >store i was going to, and took a look at the camera section.

    >
    > >> >

    >
    > >> >they were on tethers, but i'd estimate about 20-25% were non-functional

    >
    > >> >in one way or another, either missing batteries, no sd card

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> I don't recall ever seeing a display camera with a SD card. It's

    >
    > >> kinda pointless because the SD card preserves the image taken and

    >
    > >> would have to be formatted by the clerks after use. I don't think, if

    >
    > >> I ran the store, I'd want images preserved for the next customer to

    >
    > >> see. I wouldn't want some customer taking photographs of small kids

    >
    > >> in the store and leaving them around.

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> An SD card in a demo camera in a big box store is inviting theft since

    >
    > >> they can be easily palmed. Why anyone would bother is beyond me, but

    >
    > >> people do strange things.

    >
    > >

    >
    > >true but many cameras don't take photos without a card so the user

    >
    > >won't be inadvertently taking photos that aren't saved. some have an

    >
    > >option to disable that ('demo mode'), but how many customers are going

    >
    > >to know where that for each camera?

    >
    > >

    >
    > >if you don't know how to do that, then the camera is rather crippled.

    >
    > >you can see how it fits in your hand and zoom the lens and poke around

    >
    > >in the menus, but you can't take any photos, unless you happen to find

    >
    > >the proper setting, if there is one.

    >
    >
    >
    > I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
    >
    > cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.


    I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.
    But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.

    >
    > The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    >
    > inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
    >
    > The sales clerk can insert one,


    Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SDbut I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SDcard from a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view in camera when taken on another camera.
    Just curious about the last bit.


    > or whether or the customer can bring one. My
    >
    > local camera stores will allow you to go outside (a clerk goes with
    >
    > you unless you're known there) and fire off shots on your own SD card.
    >
    > You can't do any of that if you're buying online.


    No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something I doubt I could do in store.


    > See my other post on what the local situation is in more depth.


    I'm not sure there are any local camera shops near me.
    Whisky-dave, Jul 3, 2013
    1. Advertising

  2. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
    <> wrote:

    >> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
    >>
    >> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.

    >
    >I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.


    That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to
    bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in
    the camera.

    >But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.


    In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.
    >
    >>
    >> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    >>
    >> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
    >>
    >> The sales clerk can insert one,

    >
    >Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but
    >I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from
    >a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view
    >in camera when taken on another camera.
    >Just curious about the last bit.


    My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
    cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
    but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
    that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
    absolutely sure they have been downloaded.

    That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
    display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
    there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
    will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
    I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
    put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
    Nikon in the Fuji.

    My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
    camera, but not RAW formats.
    >
    >No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing
    >dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something
    >I doubt I could do in store.


    There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in
    buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.

    >> See my other post on what the local situation is in more depth.

    >
    >I'm not sure there are any local camera shops near me.
    >

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 3, 2013
    1. Advertising

  3. Jake29

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 20:59:07 UTC+1, Tony Cooper wrote:
    > On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 20:06:37 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
    >
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >Tony Cooper <> wrote:

    >
    > >[snip good advice]

    >
    > >

    >
    > >> Make sure the zoom control is smooth and easy for you to use. You

    >
    > >> should only be concerned about the *optical* zoom. The *digital* zoom

    >
    > >> is practically worthless.

    >
    > >

    >
    > >In layman's terms: digital zoom cuts away most of the image

    >
    > >(around the borders) and then makes the few remaining pixels

    >
    > >huge --- you won't get *any* more detail out of it, it just

    >
    > >needs more space.

    >
    > >

    >
    > >You can do the same on your computer: crop the image (cut away

    >
    > >all but a small part of the image) and then view it at 400%

    >
    > >or 800%. :)

    >
    > >

    >
    > >> I disagree with your preference about AA batteries,

    >
    > >

    >
    > >There's AA batteries, AA batteries and AA batteries and AA

    >
    > >batteries and AA batteries ... and AA batteries ...

    >
    >
    >
    > I understand that. My main point about AAs is that you can buy
    >
    > regular AAs just about anywhere and use them in a pinch. That may
    >
    > save a special moment or a necessary business shot.


    What's required here is an exact comparision using the same camera which is pretty much impossible, unless you're just comparing AAs with rechargable AAs.
    I also find that AAs take up more space and are heavier than a custom rechargable battery.
    Some may think that AAs are a better choice because you can buy them anywhere, but I know of many exceptions,
    Unless I had a really particualr use for a camera then perhasp AAs might be better but for me I prefer the custom recharables for convenience.


    > It's better to carry spare charged batteries, but not everyone does
    >
    > that.


    Going on longer journeys might mean taking the charge too.

    >
    > --
    >
    > Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Whisky-dave, Jul 3, 2013
  4. Jake29

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    >
    > In article <020720131241241293%>,
    > nospam <> wrote:
    >
    > > > > people can get a *lot* of information online, probably much more than
    > > > > any salesperson could offer.
    > > >
    > > > Well, people *can*, but they're too lazy to do it. Proper research is
    > > > what people could avoid by talking to the local camera shop.

    > >
    > > depends how much research they do.

    >
    > Most people do none. They want a TV/Stereo/camera, they may ask a friend
    > but disregard the advice when the superstore has a device that fits the
    > superflous critera they have but $500 cheaper than the quality brand the
    > friend recommended.


    And either it will be adequate for his purpose (the simple fact is that
    any random camera you pull off the shelf at Best Buy will be adquate for
    the purposes of most people--they are all vastly more capable than the
    various Brownie Kodaks that served most families for much of the 20th
    Century) or he'll learn more about his needs and be in a better position
    to make an informed choice next time.

    > > searching for an item on amazon and reading the reviews is easy.

    >
    > Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
    > about a product, less so when happy about a product.


    So why does the Canon 60D have 437 5-star reviews, 72 4-star reviews, 22
    3-star reviews, 11 2-star reviews, and 12 1-star reviews? Are you
    saying that all those 5-star reviewers were "unhappy about the product"?

    > You should take
    > advice from someone knowledgable that can take YOUR criteria into
    > consideration.


    While that's certainly worthwhile, it doesn't give you input from
    hundreds of users of the product.

    If one user out of 1500 says "it's a piece of crap, the lens fell off
    three days after I got it", you can pretty much dismiss it as a fluke.
    if 100 users out of a total of 150 say it you probably want to avoid the
    product.

    One thing that anybody who has survived grad school knows is that you
    never rely on a single source if you have another option.

    > > for cameras, dpreview has *very* thorough reviews.

    >
    > Indeed. But reading them amounts to that precious "research" that most
    > people don't do. All my friends bought new cameras in the last ~5 years,
    > not one of them knows anything about dpreview.com


    Did you try to tell them about it?

    > > > > plus, they want to make a sale, so they're not going to tell you about
    > > > > everything, especially stuff they don't carry.
    > > >
    > > > That's true for the big super stores, not for the local merchants.
    > > > They're happy to order any gear you want or need. They don't have huge
    > > > specials on a specific gear that they will nag on you to get because
    > > > that's where they get the biggest payoff. They value you as a customer
    > > > and know that your loyalty is worth more than 5% margins on cheap gear.

    > >
    > > some might, but not all.

    >
    > Well, more so than the superstores.


    Any business that doesn't value its customers ultimately gets what it
    deserves.

    > > i've been in stores that will talk down stuff they don't sell.

    >
    > Unsuccessful and stupid shop owners exists everywhere. I was in
    > reference to the general small scale store.


    Talking down the competition is in general poor salesmanship. When you
    get a salesman like that, tell him to read some Zig Ziglar. He'll
    either do it and maybe improve his life a bit, or not and continue to
    lose sales.

    > > i've been in stores that say incorrect things about a product, either
    > > deliberately or because the salesperson is uninformed.

    >
    > I bet you get that more in superstores than in small stores. Which is my
    > point. In fact, I don't think I've ever gotten knowledgable information
    > from any sales person in a superstore, ever.


    There's a saying in the computer business--"The difference between a
    computer salesman and a used car salesman is that the used car salesman
    _knows_ when he is lying". I think the same applies to cameras and any
    other complex modern consumer product. You can't know everything about
    everything.

    > > i've also been in stores that say you need xyz, but we don't carry that
    > > so go to so and so across town or just order it online.

    >
    > At which point, my local camera guy would say that he doesn't have that
    > in stock and he'll be happy to order it for me.


    Remember that the "We don't have that but Gimbel's does" approach can be
    a powerful tool for building customer loyalty. You lose that sale but
    may get others in the future. Of course this works best when you have
    the kind of product line that garners repeat business--with cameras you
    don't get much repeat business anymore--people buy one and use it until
    it dies, which, if they don't drop it and the battery doesn't leak, can
    be decades later.

    > > > My local camera/computer/stereo guys has always bent over backwards to
    > > > do proper research, find the best gear for my needs and kept in touch to
    > > > see that I'm still happy with the purchase. You just don't get that from
    > > > MediaMarkt (our Best Buy when it comes to electronic gear), where
    > > > customer loyalty isn't worth as much because they have so many customers.

    > >
    > > that's unusual.

    >
    > Maybe you have more customer-oriented sales people in superstores in the
    > states, here they are uninformed morons that have direct orders to sell
    > some specific products where the store earns the most money.
    >
    > > > There is a place for everything, and I din't mind the competition, but I
    > > > think it's sad when customers would rather save $10 than buy from a
    > > > small dealer that knows what he's doing, which mans that he have to
    > > > close shop.

    > >
    > > it's not about saving $10. if the difference is $10, i'll buy locally
    > > because it's instant gratification and no worries about damage in
    > > shipping or if someone has to be home to sign for it or if the box will
    > > be left on the front steps in the rain, etc.

    >
    > Obviously it won't be $10 on a Nikon D800, but on accessories, memory
    > cards, batteries and such.
    >
    > > many times, the difference is much more, often $100-200 and sometimes
    > > even more. for that, i *will* buy online. that's money that can be
    > > spent at a different local store, maybe a restaurant or something, so
    > > in the end, the community still benefits, just not the stores with
    > > ripoff prices.

    >
    > I wasn't in reference to stores with rip-off prices, though. If you were
    > only talking about stores with rip-off prices, then I misunderstood you
    > from the beginning.
    J. Clarke, Jul 3, 2013
  5. Jake29

    PeterN Guest

    On 7/3/2013 10:45 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
    > On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
    >>>
    >>> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.

    >>
    >> I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.

    >
    > That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to
    > bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in
    > the camera.
    >
    >> But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.

    >
    > In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.
    >>
    >>>
    >>> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    >>>
    >>> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
    >>>
    >>> The sales clerk can insert one,

    >>
    >> Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but
    >> I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from
    >> a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view
    >> in camera when taken on another camera.
    >> Just curious about the last bit.

    >
    > My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
    > cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
    > but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
    > that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
    > absolutely sure they have been downloaded.
    >
    > That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
    > display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
    > there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
    > will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
    > I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
    > put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
    > Nikon in the Fuji.
    >
    > My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
    > camera, but not RAW formats.
    >>
    >> No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing
    >> dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something
    >> I doubt I could do in store.

    >
    > There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in
    > buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.
    >


    I have a quick & dirty way to do some testing, based on the assumption
    that every store has shelves and labels. Do all tests in the same order.
    You can line up on the shelves and displays. Quickly determine barrel
    and/or pin cushion distortion. Then test the ISO noise by pointing at
    the ceiling at various ISO levels. close focus test by reading the label
    on the counter. Then take you card home and evaluate.



    --
    PeterN
    PeterN, Jul 3, 2013
  6. Jake29

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 22:17:15 UTC+1, Tony Cooper wrote:


    >
    > The only time that I can think of that this would happen is if Nikon,
    >
    > or whomever makes the camera, has a promotion that the store or site
    >
    > doesn't honor.
    >
    >
    >
    > Can you provide an example of this?


    I had one example of a TV a couple of years ago.
    I was loking for a TV for my parents, I checked on-line foirst for amazon reviews (not that I always trust them) found a 32" LCD for about £320.
    So I checked locally using argo, which is a locally based chain box shifter, they had it for £550.


    Here's a camera comparision.
    -------------------------------------
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-EOS-C...F8&qid=1372865864&sr=8-2&keywords=canon eos m

    includes flash £350

    the flash seems to be about £120 elsewhere
    -------------------------------------------
    http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/5599358.htm#pdpPromotions

    excluding flash £400 but there are cash back options but not sure how they work.
    ----------------------------------------------
    excluding flash £400 but £50 cash back
    http://www.lcegroup.co.uk/CanonNew/Canon-EOS-M- 18-55mm-CLAIM-£50-CASHBACK!_2313.html




    So looks like buying on-line for this itemn will save about £70.
    Not sure I'd want to go to a bricks and mortor store and pay £70 for nothing.
    Whisky-dave, Jul 3, 2013
  7. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Tony Cooper
    <> wrote:

    > In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.


    not if the security tether wraps around the card slot. or if there's
    security tape over the door. or glue. at trade shows, the cameras often
    have the card slots secured in one way or another.

    big box stores manage to keep lenses on slrs, which are worth a *lot*
    more than an sd card.

    > My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
    > cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
    > but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
    > that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
    > absolutely sure they have been downloaded.


    the cards are fat32 (or fat16 on older cameras).

    > That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
    > display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
    > there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
    > will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
    > I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
    > put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
    > Nikon in the Fuji.


    ..nef is nikon's format so obviously, fuji won't show it (or any other
    non-nikon camera), and fuji raw won't be shown in a nikon camera.

    > My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
    > camera, but not RAW formats.


    a reasonable guess, but not always correct.

    jpeg is standard although not all cameras will show a jpeg from another
    camera (or from a computer). some look for metadata to see if it's
    'their own'.
    nospam, Jul 3, 2013
  8. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, J. Clarke
    <> wrote:

    > Any business that doesn't value its customers ultimately gets what it
    > deserves.


    exactly.
    nospam, Jul 3, 2013
  9. Jake29

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Wednesday, 3 July 2013 16:47:03 UTC+1, PeterN wrote:
    > On 7/3/2013 10:45 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
    >
    > > On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave

    >
    > > <> wrote:

    >
    > >

    >
    > >>> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the

    >
    > >>>

    >
    > >>> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own..

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to

    >
    > > bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in

    >
    > > the camera.

    >
    > >

    >
    > >> But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >>>

    >
    > >>> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards

    >
    > >>>

    >
    > >>> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.

    >
    > >>>

    >
    > >>> The sales clerk can insert one,

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but

    >
    > >> I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from

    >
    > >> a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picuresbe view

    >
    > >> in camera when taken on another camera.

    >
    > >> Just curious about the last bit.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both

    >
    > > cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,

    >
    > > but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do

    >
    > > that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm

    >
    > > absolutely sure they have been downloaded.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not

    >
    > > display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when

    >
    > > there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,

    >
    > > will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.

    >
    > > I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then

    >
    > > put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a

    >
    > > Nikon in the Fuji.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other

    >
    > > camera, but not RAW formats.

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing

    >
    > >> dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something

    >
    > >> I doubt I could do in store.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in

    >
    > > buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.

    >
    > >

    >
    >
    >
    > I have a quick & dirty way to do some testing, based on the assumption
    >
    > that every store has shelves and labels. Do all tests in the same order.
    >
    > You can line up on the shelves and displays. Quickly determine barrel
    >
    > and/or pin cushion distortion.


    I assume you;'ll have a tripod too and that the lighting is good enough in teh store. I tried taking some picturewes in my lab the flourescant lights made gettoign a good picture more difficult adn if I were testing movioe mode it'd be hopeless. I rarely take photos under florescant light anyway.

    > Then test the ISO noise by pointing at
    >
    > the ceiling at various ISO levels.


    Ceilings have textures even a bit of colour or dirt not sure I'd wanht that variable when testing and as for teh floourescant lights ......

    > close focus test by reading the label
    >
    > on the counter. Then take you card home and evaluate.

    That could be vaild as you'd find out which camera was easist to hold for doing such things, but I'd prefer to use a tripod for such an evalution.

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > PeterN
    Whisky-dave, Jul 3, 2013
  10. Jake29

    PeterN Guest

    On 7/3/2013 11:55 AM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <>, Tony Cooper
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.

    >
    > not if the security tether wraps around the card slot. or if there's
    > security tape over the door. or glue. at trade shows, the cameras often
    > have the card slots secured in one way or another.
    >
    > big box stores manage to keep lenses on slrs, which are worth a *lot*
    > more than an sd card.
    >
    >> My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
    >> cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
    >> but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
    >> that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
    >> absolutely sure they have been downloaded.

    >
    > the cards are fat32 (or fat16 on older cameras).
    >
    >> That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
    >> display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
    >> there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
    >> will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
    >> I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
    >> put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
    >> Nikon in the Fuji.

    >
    > .nef is nikon's format so obviously, fuji won't show it (or any other
    > non-nikon camera), and fuji raw won't be shown in a nikon camera.
    >
    >> My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
    >> camera, but not RAW formats.

    >
    > a reasonable guess, but not always correct.
    >
    > jpeg is standard although not all cameras will show a jpeg from another
    > camera (or from a computer). some look for metadata to see if it's
    > 'their own'.
    >


    Depends on the show. At a trade only show, the serious attendees are
    known in advance, and have appointments with the vendors, who let them
    play to their hearts content. A serious attendee at a trade show is
    there to work, and product comparison & evaluation is the whole purpose.
    Vendors will not restrict evaluation for serious attendees.
    Having said that, I once crashed a trade only, gourmet food show. But,
    that is the exception.
    PeterN
    PeterN, Jul 3, 2013
  11. Jake29

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    >
    > On 7/3/2013 10:45 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
    > > On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
    > > <> wrote:
    > >
    > >>> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
    > >>>
    > >>> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.
    > >>
    > >> I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.

    > >
    > > That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to
    > > bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in
    > > the camera.
    > >
    > >> But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.

    > >
    > > In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.
    > >>
    > >>>
    > >>> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    > >>>
    > >>> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
    > >>>
    > >>> The sales clerk can insert one,
    > >>
    > >> Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but
    > >> I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from
    > >> a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view
    > >> in camera when taken on another camera.
    > >> Just curious about the last bit.

    > >
    > > My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
    > > cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
    > > but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
    > > that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
    > > absolutely sure they have been downloaded.
    > >
    > > That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
    > > display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
    > > there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
    > > will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
    > > I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
    > > put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
    > > Nikon in the Fuji.
    > >
    > > My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
    > > camera, but not RAW formats.
    > >>
    > >> No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing
    > >> dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something
    > >> I doubt I could do in store.

    > >
    > > There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in
    > > buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.
    > >

    >
    > I have a quick & dirty way to do some testing, based on the assumption
    > that every store has shelves and labels. Do all tests in the same order.
    > You can line up on the shelves and displays. Quickly determine barrel
    > and/or pin cushion distortion. Then test the ISO noise by pointing at
    > the ceiling at various ISO levels. close focus test by reading the label
    > on the counter. Then take you card home and evaluate.


    And if you are buying a camera to be used taking pictures of blueprints
    under a desk lamp for espionage purposes that might tell you all you
    need to know.
    J. Clarke, Jul 3, 2013
  12. Jake29

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <2013070309221750878-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
    savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com says...
    >
    > On 2013-07-03 05:58:32 -0700, Whisky-dave <> said:
    > >
    > > How about amazon ?
    > > And if the manufactuer wanted to make more profit perhaps they
    > > shouldn't sell so cheaply to the large retailers.
    > > As I say can you explain why Aple aren;t losing money due to amazon or
    > > the big box shifters, knowing that might give some clues to how to run
    > > a buisness rather than how to turn a quick profit.

    >
    > How about Amazon?
    > Amazon isn't just a monolithic online vendor. It also acts as a
    > clearing house and shop window for small vendors.
    > I bought my iPad2 from an Amazon vendor, just after the announcement of
    > the iPad3. As a result I was able to buy a 64GB iPad2 for $260 less
    > than I would have had to pay buying direct from Apple.
    > My wallet feels no shame buying stuff from Amazon. I have found varying
    > prices for items such as CF and SDHC card from several different Amazon
    > vendors. So when shopping at Amazon, it is always best to dig a little
    > deeper than the first price that shows up, remembering that Amazon
    > maintains a pretty good reputation when it comes to returns and
    > customer support.


    I presume the "Aple" in question is "Apple" the computer and phone and
    whatnot company. If so, they are a manufacturer. Any time anybody
    sells one of their products Apple makes a profit. If Apple sells it
    directly then they make more of a profit than if they sell it to a
    retailer like Amazon, but they make their money either way.
    J. Clarke, Jul 3, 2013
  13. Jake29

    PeterN Guest

    On 7/3/2013 1:02 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >>
    >> On 7/3/2013 10:45 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
    >>> On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
    >>>>>
    >>>>> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.
    >>>>
    >>>> I guess they can, they could bring their own battery too.
    >>>
    >>> That's a bit far-fetched. The shopper would not know what battery to
    >>> bring and wouldn't be likely to own a proprietary battery to work in
    >>> the camera.
    >>>
    >>>> But I'd find it a little strange that a big box store couldn't have a few 2GB cards laying around.
    >>>
    >>> In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.
    >>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    >>>>>
    >>>>> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The sales clerk can insert one,
    >>>>
    >>>> Obvioulsy some cameras use diffrernt cards, but I think teh majority are SD but
    >>>> I'm not sure if they are all formated in the same way or whether a SD card from
    >>>> a canon will work in a Nikon without re-formating, and can teh picures be view
    >>>> in camera when taken on another camera.
    >>>> Just curious about the last bit.
    >>>
    >>> My SD cards can be interchanged between my Nikons and my Fuji. Both
    >>> cameras have a "reformat" option in the menu. I reformat in-camera,
    >>> but I could reformat as part of the downloading process. I don't do
    >>> that because I want the images retained on the card until I'm
    >>> absolutely sure they have been downloaded.
    >>>
    >>> That's an interesting point, though, about viewing. My Fuji will not
    >>> display the .NEF images taken on my Nikon. It shows "no images" when
    >>> there may be a number of images on the SD card. My Nikon, though,
    >>> will display the .jpg images taken when the card was used in the Fuji.
    >>> I have not noticed what happens when I use the Fuji in RAW and then
    >>> put that card into a Nikon, nor have I tried viewing .jpg taken on a
    >>> Nikon in the Fuji.
    >>>
    >>> My guess is that any camera will show a .jpg taken on any other
    >>> camera, but not RAW formats.
    >>>>
    >>>> No but you can take as long as you like from minuites to days comparing
    >>>> dpreview or other sites. I can also see test of ISO performance something
    >>>> I doubt I could do in store.
    >>>
    >>> There is no one way to fully evaluate any camera you're interested in
    >>> buying. The best evaluation is a combination of sources.
    >>>

    >>
    >> I have a quick & dirty way to do some testing, based on the assumption
    >> that every store has shelves and labels. Do all tests in the same order.
    >> You can line up on the shelves and displays. Quickly determine barrel
    >> and/or pin cushion distortion. Then test the ISO noise by pointing at
    >> the ceiling at various ISO levels. close focus test by reading the label
    >> on the counter. Then take you card home and evaluate.

    >
    > And if you are buying a camera to be used taking pictures of blueprints
    > under a desk lamp for espionage purposes that might tell you all you
    > need to know.
    >
    >

    I said quick & dirty, not complete. ;-)


    --
    PeterN
    PeterN, Jul 3, 2013
  14. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:36:13 -0400, "J. Clarke" <>
    wrote:

    >>
    >> Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
    >> about a product, less so when happy about a product.

    >
    >So why does the Canon 60D have 437 5-star reviews, 72 4-star reviews, 22
    >3-star reviews, 11 2-star reviews, and 12 1-star reviews? Are you
    >saying that all those 5-star reviewers were "unhappy about the product"?


    I feel that user reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. While
    some people are conscientious about reporting fair information, a
    dissatisfied user is more apt to complete a review than a satisfied
    user. The satisfied user got what he wanted, and considers that the
    end of the transaction.

    I submit very few reviews of products I purchased. I guess I'm lazy
    in this respect. I *expect* the product to do what it's advertised to
    do.

    >Talking down the competition is in general poor salesmanship. When you
    >get a salesman like that, tell him to read some Zig Ziglar. He'll
    >either do it and maybe improve his life a bit, or not and continue to
    >lose sales.


    Boy, there's a name from the past. When I first started at the
    Tribune in Chicago in 1960, the Trib hired Zig to give a presentation
    to all employees. He did a full day with the employees broken up into
    groups because the area wouldn't hold all at once.

    He was motivational with that deep, booming voice. Zig died at 86
    last year. Later in his life he got on a Christian right-wing
    Republican kick, but that wasn't part of the presentation I attended.

    I haven't read any of his books, but I suppose his advice holds today.
    He really just covered basic techniques, but he presented them with
    style.
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 3, 2013
  15. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:36:13 -0400, "J. Clarke" <>
    wrote:

    >Any business that doesn't value its customers ultimately gets what it
    >deserves.


    That's a pretty pat statement. It's true, but it doesn't say
    anything.

    The company neither gives the impression of valuing nor disrespecting
    the customer. It's the employees, and specifically the employees who
    deal with customers, that give the impression.

    The fault in many large businesses is that upper management does value
    the customer and wants the customer treated right, but they are
    unaware of what goes on at the line level and make no effort to put
    any system in place to determine how their customers are treated.

    Some companies do, though. They hire "secret shoppers" to report back
    on how they're treated. They are pro-active in learning about their
    customer's experiences instead of depending on unsolicited reviews and
    complaint letters. Often, middle-management people block the top
    executives from hearing about problems. They feel if they pass along
    that complaint letter or phone call, that they will be the ones
    blamed.

    While I only watched it once, that television program "Undercover
    Boss" where the top guy in a company goes undercover to work in his
    own company showed how revealing it can be for a boss to see how his
    own company deals with customers.

    Periodically, it would be informative for a person like Hubert Joly
    (CEO of Best Buy) to go into his stores and act like a regular
    customer. I suspect some changes might be made.


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 3, 2013
  16. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 08:50:38 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
    <> wrote:

    >On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 22:17:15 UTC+1, Tony Cooper wrote:
    >
    >
    >>
    >> The only time that I can think of that this would happen is if Nikon,
    >>
    >> or whomever makes the camera, has a promotion that the store or site
    >>
    >> doesn't honor.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Can you provide an example of this?

    >
    >I had one example of a TV a couple of years ago.
    >I was loking for a TV for my parents, I checked on-line foirst for amazon reviews (not that I always trust them) found a 32" LCD for about £320.
    >So I checked locally using argo, which is a locally based chain box shifter, they had it for £550.
    >
    >
    >Here's a camera comparision.
    >-------------------------------------
    >http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-EOS-C...F8&qid=1372865864&sr=8-2&keywords=canon eos m
    >
    >includes flash £350
    >
    >the flash seems to be about £120 elsewhere


    I don't quite follow that. The £349.99 seems to be for the camera and
    the flash, not just the flash. £349.99 = US$534. B&H offers the
    camera at US$349 and the Speedlight 90EX for US$149.00 for a total of
    about $500. We all know that UK prices are higher than US prices on
    cameras, but this is less than 10% higher for the package you'd buy
    compared to the package I'd buy.

    I guess what you're pointing out is that London Camera Exchange is
    selling the camera only for £350 (after cashback), but LCE is an
    online seller as well as a b&m store. You'd have to buy the flash
    separately from an LCE shop at £120/US$183.

    What happens, at LCE, if you take in Amazon's listing and ask for a
    free 90EX or a better deal? Some US stores will negotiate when you do
    this.

    Still, it's a concrete example and better than just claiming that
    something unknown was $200 higher in a store than online.









    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 3, 2013
  17. Jake29

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <>, tonycooper214
    @gmail.com says...
    >
    > On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:36:13 -0400, "J. Clarke" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >>
    > >> Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
    > >> about a product, less so when happy about a product.

    > >
    > >So why does the Canon 60D have 437 5-star reviews, 72 4-star reviews, 22
    > >3-star reviews, 11 2-star reviews, and 12 1-star reviews? Are you
    > >saying that all those 5-star reviewers were "unhappy about the product"?

    >
    > I feel that user reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. While
    > some people are conscientious about reporting fair information, a
    > dissatisfied user is more apt to complete a review than a satisfied
    > user. The satisfied user got what he wanted, and considers that the
    > end of the transaction.
    >
    > I submit very few reviews of products I purchased. I guess I'm lazy
    > in this respect. I *expect* the product to do what it's advertised to
    > do.


    I agree that you have to be careful about the reviews. On the other
    hand when I'm about to buy anything that costs more than 50 bucks or so
    I will read the reviews. I'll start with the negatives--see if there's
    a pattern of a particular type of failure for example, then if all looks
    well there go up the line.

    > >Talking down the competition is in general poor salesmanship. When you
    > >get a salesman like that, tell him to read some Zig Ziglar. He'll
    > >either do it and maybe improve his life a bit, or not and continue to
    > >lose sales.

    >
    > Boy, there's a name from the past. When I first started at the
    > Tribune in Chicago in 1960, the Trib hired Zig to give a presentation
    > to all employees. He did a full day with the employees broken up into
    > groups because the area wouldn't hold all at once.
    >
    > He was motivational with that deep, booming voice. Zig died at 86
    > last year. Later in his life he got on a Christian right-wing
    > Republican kick, but that wasn't part of the presentation I attended.
    >
    > I haven't read any of his books, but I suppose his advice holds today.
    > He really just covered basic techniques, but he presented them with
    > style.


    I never heard him in person, just read some of his books. Fun reads
    with useful advice.
    J. Clarke, Jul 3, 2013
  18. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 11:55:21 -0400, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> In a big box store, the SD card would likely disappear the first day.

    >
    >not if the security tether wraps around the card slot. or if there's
    >security tape over the door. or glue.


    How about welding? As long as we're thinking about gluing the card
    slot closed (which means the demo unit can never be sold), let's go
    all out and propose something even more preposterous.

    The security tether attaches at the bottom of the camera. Usually
    there's a holder that screws into the tripod screw opening. Looping
    that around the card slot and fixing it in place would be quite a
    trick.

    I was wrong, by the way, to have suggested to Jake that he could flip
    open the battery door on a display model to see what type of battery
    was used. The tether connection blocks the battery door in most
    cases.



    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 3, 2013
  19. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 14:47:30 -0400, "J. Clarke" <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>, tonycooper214
    >@gmail.com says...
    >>
    >> On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:36:13 -0400, "J. Clarke" <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >>
    >> >> Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
    >> >> about a product, less so when happy about a product.
    >> >
    >> >So why does the Canon 60D have 437 5-star reviews, 72 4-star reviews, 22
    >> >3-star reviews, 11 2-star reviews, and 12 1-star reviews? Are you
    >> >saying that all those 5-star reviewers were "unhappy about the product"?

    >>
    >> I feel that user reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. While
    >> some people are conscientious about reporting fair information, a
    >> dissatisfied user is more apt to complete a review than a satisfied
    >> user. The satisfied user got what he wanted, and considers that the
    >> end of the transaction.
    >>
    >> I submit very few reviews of products I purchased. I guess I'm lazy
    >> in this respect. I *expect* the product to do what it's advertised to
    >> do.

    >
    >I agree that you have to be careful about the reviews. On the other
    >hand when I'm about to buy anything that costs more than 50 bucks or so
    >I will read the reviews. I'll start with the negatives--see if there's
    >a pattern of a particular type of failure for example, then if all looks
    >well there go up the line.


    The reviews I pay the most attention to are the reviews of hotels and
    bed and breakfast places when we travel on vacation. If I see "roach
    infested" or "located next door to an abattoir" in just one review, I
    go the next listing. On vacation, where we're going to stay for a few
    days in one place, I prefer the b&b or boutique hotel to the chain
    hotel.
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 3, 2013
  20. Jake29

    Jake29 Guest

    Tony Cooper wrote:

    > I was wrong, by the way, to have suggested to Jake that he could flip
    > open the battery door on a display model to see what type of battery
    > was used. The tether connection blocks the battery door in most
    > cases.


    That's true. And, on my first looks at in-store cameras that I did at a
    local rather dumpy and disorganized Wal-Mart (before posting my original
    post here), that was one of the problems I had. I couldn't tell what type
    of battery each camera used because I couldn't open the battery compartment
    door, and most didn't say much about the battery on the info card. So, that
    was one of my frustrations in trying to figure out which camera I wanted.

    And, since most or all of the cameras in my local Wal-Mart had tethers but
    couldn't be turned on, I just assumed that's how it's done in most stores.
    Now I know better and I'm much more comfortable with the whole camera
    shopping process.
    Jake29, Jul 3, 2013
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Chris

    Buying a digital camera

    Chris, May 11, 2004, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    17
    Views:
    676
    Chris
    May 19, 2004
  2. Richard

    Buying a 3 megapixel digital camera

    Richard, Aug 16, 2003, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    10
    Views:
    507
    Ian S
    Aug 17, 2003
  3. Missie

    buying a new digital camera ?

    Missie, Aug 18, 2003, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    388
    Edric Ta
    Aug 20, 2003
  4. vidhu

    buying a new digital camera

    vidhu, Sep 1, 2003, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    14
    Views:
    528
    Lucas Tam
    Sep 2, 2003
  5. Andy Munnis

    Guidance on a buying a new digital camera

    Andy Munnis, Oct 6, 2003, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    790
    Michael Geary
    Oct 6, 2003
Loading...

Share This Page