Buying new digital camera

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Jake29, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <>,
    Whisky-dave <> wrote:

    > > i don't mind paying a little more for local service but not a couple
    > > hundred dollars.

    >
    > yes one does wonder why the differnce is so large.


    b&h buys in *huge* volumes. a small store can't compete with that.
    nospam, Jul 2, 2013
    #81
    1. Advertising

  2. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Sandman
    <> wrote:

    > > > Well, for what its worth - that "skilled staff" is the added value I
    > > > miss now that the large super stores have killed off the small players.

    > >
    > > sometimes it's worth it. sometimes not.
    > >
    > > people can get a *lot* of information online, probably much more than
    > > any salesperson could offer.

    >
    > Well, people *can*, but they're too lazy to do it. Proper research is
    > what people could avoid by talking to the local camera shop.


    depends how much research they do.

    searching for an item on amazon and reading the reviews is easy.

    for cameras, dpreview has *very* thorough reviews.

    on the other hand, learning everything there is to know about a given
    product is another story. some might, but most don't.

    > > plus, they want to make a sale, so they're not going to tell you about
    > > everything, especially stuff they don't carry.

    >
    > That's true for the big super stores, not for the local merchants.
    > They're happy to order any gear you want or need. They don't have huge
    > specials on a specific gear that they will nag on you to get because
    > that's where they get the biggest payoff. They value you as a customer
    > and know that your loyalty is worth more than 5% margins on cheap gear.


    some might, but not all.

    i've been in stores that will talk down stuff they don't sell.

    i've been in stores that say incorrect things about a product, either
    deliberately or because the salesperson is uninformed.

    i've also been in stores that say you need xyz, but we don't carry that
    so go to so and so across town or just order it online.

    > My local camera/computer/stereo guys has always bent over backwards to
    > do proper research, find the best gear for my needs and kept in touch to
    > see that I'm still happy with the purchase. You just don't get that from
    > MediaMarkt (our Best Buy when it comes to electronic gear), where
    > customer loyalty isn't worth as much because they have so many customers.


    that's unusual.

    > There is a place for everything, and I din't mind the competition, but I
    > think it's sad when customers would rather save $10 than buy from a
    > small dealer that knows what he's doing, which mans that he have to
    > close shop.


    it's not about saving $10. if the difference is $10, i'll buy locally
    because it's instant gratification and no worries about damage in
    shipping or if someone has to be home to sign for it or if the box will
    be left on the front steps in the rain, etc.

    many times, the difference is much more, often $100-200 and sometimes
    even more. for that, i *will* buy online. that's money that can be
    spent at a different local store, maybe a restaurant or something, so
    in the end, the community still benefits, just not the stores with
    ripoff prices.
    nospam, Jul 2, 2013
    #82
    1. Advertising

  3. Tony Cooper <> wrote:
    [snip good advice]

    > Make sure the zoom control is smooth and easy for you to use. You
    > should only be concerned about the *optical* zoom. The *digital* zoom
    > is practically worthless.


    In layman's terms: digital zoom cuts away most of the image
    (around the borders) and then makes the few remaining pixels
    huge --- you won't get *any* more detail out of it, it just
    needs more space.

    You can do the same on your computer: crop the image (cut away
    all but a small part of the image) and then view it at 400%
    or 800%. :)

    > I disagree with your preference about AA batteries,


    There's AA batteries, AA batteries and AA batteries and AA
    batteries and AA batteries ... and AA batteries ...

    - zinc carbon batteries: a few shots and they are "empty"
    because they can't deliver the peak energy flow the camera
    needs. Especially for flash. Don't hold half the power
    alkaline batteries do, too.
    - alkaline batteries: the standard primary (non-rechargeable)
    batteries. Some (older) AA cameras switched off at a high
    voltage, so they never got to deliver most of their power,
    shutting off after a few dozen shots. AIUI current AA
    cameras are much better.
    - lithium 1.5V primary batteries: Hold 3 times the power
    of a alkaline battery and IIRC can do high peak currents.
    10 year shelf life, so good for occasional shooting and long
    rest periods. Say if you have one in your car, want it to
    work if you have/are at an accident ...
    - NiCd accumulators: Outdated (except for very high current
    applications like drills), does self discharge, keeps not a
    lot of power per size and weight. (Many people say you need
    to discharge them before charging, lest they stop taking
    more than that power[1], but that may be a relict of (back
    then) chargers overcharging half-filled batteries and thus
    damaging the battery and their ability to hold charge.)
    - NiMH (Nickel–metal hydride) accumulator. Hold nearly as
    much power as alkaline batteries. Have a lower initial
    voltage, but can deliver a good current (low internal
    resistance) even when quite empty (and their voltage doesn't
    drop as fast), so can deliver enough power (except for old AA
    cameras that don't adjust for the slightly lower voltage).
    Do have a high self discharge (5-10% on the first day,
    then 0.5-1% per day at room temperature (changing the
    temperature has a large effect)), though, and don't like
    freezing temperatures (raised internal resistance, i.e. less
    peak power, can't get out that much of their stored power
    for camera usage).
    NiMH need an intelligent, microprocessor controlled charger
    that can charge single batteries (NOT only pairs!), as
    they're quite sensitive to overcharging!
    - NiMH LSD (Nickel–metal hydride low self discharge)
    accumulator. Similar to standard NiMH accumulators, they
    only store around 60-70% of their power. On the plus side,
    they keep (most) of their charge: they do lose 15% in the
    first month (compared to ~5-10% + 29* 0.5-1%) and then slow
    down to 1-2% per month (65 to 79% left after a year in a
    test of various brands).
    There are IIRC only 3 manufacturers world wide: Sanyo
    (Eneloop) does not share (and is both low price and was
    the winner (79%) in the test), the other 2 deliver all the
    other relablers.
    - and a couple other chemistries for both primary batteries
    (non-rechargeable) and secondary batteries (rechargeable
    accumulators) that are more rare and may not be usable for
    cameras anyway (e.g. RAM is very-low-current only)

    In short form:
    - 1.5V Lithium primary cells for long shelf life
    - NiMH LSD (read Eneloop!) secondary cells for normal use and
    up to 1-2 years of non-use
    - alkaline in emergencies

    Of course, Li-Ion can store even more energy, but also
    self-discharges somewhat.


    > Replacement parts aren't a
    > consideration, so discontinued models are worth buying.


    .... as any breakage (which is not a manufacturer's error for
    which the same pays) is a total loss anyway with these cameras
    at these price points.

    > About megapixels...most of the cameras you'll see are about the same
    > in models in the same price range. But, big megapixel numbers are
    > really only important to people who want to make large prints. The
    > difference between a 12 megapixel camera and a 24 megapixel camera
    > will not been seen in a 4" x 6" print.


    The difference between a 2 Mpix and a 24 MPix camera won't
    be seen in a 4x6 print.

    -Wolfgang

    [1] This can be an issue with satellites which enter the
    Earth shadow for the same amount of power needed while in
    it again and again and again, but probably not much in
    photography applications.
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jul 2, 2013
    #83
  4. James Silverton <> wrote:
    > On 7/1/2013 3:46 PM, Alfred Molon wrote:
    >> In article <kqo26i$gal$>, Jake29
    >> says...


    >>> Thanks. I'll definitely look for that about the viewfinder. I know exactly
    >>> what you mean about keeping the camera stable and being able to see what I
    >>> am trying to photograph on a sunny day without a viewfinder. I do get that
    >>> the viewfinder feature may just be in higher end cameras but I'll look for
    >>> that anyway and see what's out there.


    >> The problem is that viewfinders in cheap P&S cameras are
    >> horrible, especially if the camera has some zoom range.
    >> It's better to get a camera with a good LCD screen and
    >> no viewfinder.


    > An optical viewfinder beats guessing at just what you are photographing
    > in bright light.


    With most of the optical viewfinders available at these price
    ranges you *are* guessing at just what you're photographing.
    :)

    And there are technologies (e.g. transflexive displays) that
    don't mind strong sun at all --- you merely switch off the
    backlight to save power in sunlight --- but they seem to be
    exceedingly rare.

    Otherwise, a fold-out shade for the LCD works pretty well.

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jul 2, 2013
    #84
  5. Jake29 <> wrote:

    > Part of why I am interested in higher megapixels is that I sometimes take
    > photos of a high part of a building or a chimney etc. that needs work, but
    > from ground level. Then, when I get the photos on my computer, I can zoom
    > in and see more detail about the condition of the chimney etc. I don't know
    > if higher megapixels really makes a difference in my being able to do that,
    > but with the cameras that I had in the past that was a great feature.


    Try a camera with a longer optical zoom tele end. (Your camera
    will have a small sensor and a comparatively dark optics
    (big aperture number) causing a loss of resolution, so your
    megapixel number will not matter much, there, but you'll see
    more with the chimney nearly filling the image than with it
    being just a small detail.)

    > One other thing that I sometimes need to do is take pictures of rooms (like
    > a bathroom or kitchen) that has been remodeled, and it would be good to be
    > able to take a wider angle shot if possible to get more of the room in one
    > picture. I have seen cameras that say "wide angle", but after reading more
    > about some of that, it appears that the only truly "wide angle" cameras are
    > the higher end ones that are not "point and shoot". But, I thought I'd
    > mention that in case there is anything I should look for in terms of "wide
    > angle" on the point and shoot cameras.


    Hmmm ... you're right, a proper wide angle (28mm or
    (better!) 24mm in 35mm equivalent focal length) is rare in
    point&shoots. And stitching is either with visible errors
    (which need some or much work to hide) or needs proper technique
    (tripod, nodal point adapter, proper software *and* some
    (or much) work) indoors. (It doesn't matter if you don't
    have the nodal point when you're shooting distant mountains,
    the little camera movement will be tiny to the many kilometers
    to the mountains, but inside a room ...)

    Maybe a wide angle adapter (a special lens in front of your
    camera's lens) can help, but especially then straight lines may
    get barrel or cushion shaped or even wavy. Try before you buy.

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jul 2, 2013
    #85
  6. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 10:36:44 -0400, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> >> I was in Target on Friday, and all their demo/display cameras were in
    >> >> anti-theft holders, on retractable cables and hooked up to a power
    >> >> supply system.
    >> >> ...and they had a good 60+ cameras to choose from.
    >> >
    >> >i was in best buy earlier today because it was next door to another
    >> >store i was going to, and took a look at the camera section.
    >> >
    >> >they were on tethers, but i'd estimate about 20-25% were non-functional
    >> >in one way or another, either missing batteries, no sd card

    >>
    >> I don't recall ever seeing a display camera with a SD card. It's
    >> kinda pointless because the SD card preserves the image taken and
    >> would have to be formatted by the clerks after use. I don't think, if
    >> I ran the store, I'd want images preserved for the next customer to
    >> see. I wouldn't want some customer taking photographs of small kids
    >> in the store and leaving them around.
    >>
    >> An SD card in a demo camera in a big box store is inviting theft since
    >> they can be easily palmed. Why anyone would bother is beyond me, but
    >> people do strange things.

    >
    >true but many cameras don't take photos without a card so the user
    >won't be inadvertently taking photos that aren't saved. some have an
    >option to disable that ('demo mode'), but how many customers are going
    >to know where that for each camera?
    >
    >if you don't know how to do that, then the camera is rather crippled.
    >you can see how it fits in your hand and zoom the lens and poke around
    >in the menus, but you can't take any photos, unless you happen to find
    >the proper setting, if there is one.


    I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
    cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.
    The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
    The sales clerk can insert one, or the customer can bring one. My
    local camera stores will allow you to go outside (a clerk goes with
    you unless you're known there) and fire off shots on your own SD card.
    You can't do any of that if you're buying online.

    See my other post on what the local situation is in more depth.
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 2, 2013
    #86
  7. Jake29 <> wrote:

    > I found this YouTube link about it:
    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPla9VKg2uQ .


    Typical sales TV, lots of bull.

    (Leica sure doesn't build the optics (a very high impact on
    the quality: be off 1/10 of a mm and you've suddenly got a
    terrible lens) and may or may not have designed them.)

    As to "invented the 35mm format" --- they took a movie film
    format as a cheap film source, ran it from side to side instead
    top to bottom and that was that!

    The quality of it was just barely OK: you had to enlarge it
    quite a bit (instead of contact prints from medium or large
    format cameras), and films back then didn't take that very
    kindly. But it was small and easier to carry, handle and hide
    (street shooting, for example).

    > In the video, they talk about CMOS versus "??" (I couldn't understand what
    > the presenter called the other option).


    CCD. Charge Coupled Device.

    > They made it sound like CMOS may be
    > better, but I don't know if it matters for what I need or want in a camera.


    It's bull. Completely irrelevant. 25mm (with the 20x that
    expands to 25-500mm --- all of course in 35mm format equivalent
    focal lengths) is VASTLY more relevant.

    CMOS was hoped to be cheaper (reusing existing manufacturing
    techniques) --- but that failed. CMOS are cheaper because
    you can integrate more peripheral circuity and as an active
    pixel sensor (each pixel has it's own amplifier) the amps can
    work slow and carefully and still produce 100's of MPix/s in
    a sensor. CMOS doesn't bloom (overfilled pixels don't spill
    to neighbours).

    CCDs are better when it comes to real low photon counts, when
    near 100% efficiency is needed (every photon detected, at
    least in a small spectral range --- CMOS only does up to 70%,
    so CMOS is 43% better there), CCD can beat CMOS at loooong
    exposure times due to real low dark current possible. CCD is
    more uniform between pixels (less colour noise). CCD have a
    larger percentage of actual capturing area, as no amplifier
    needs space (better fill factor, negated by having
    microlenses).

    In short: for astronomy and similar, CCD beats CMOS.
    For p&s cameras it doesn't matter at all.

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jul 2, 2013
    #87
  8. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    I had to go by Best Buy earlier today in order to pick up something at
    a craft store for a grandson project, so I did a quick survey. (No
    airplane was involved)

    The camera department has a long double-sided display of non-DSLR
    cameras. There were 43 different cameras on display on that unit, and
    all on retractable tethers so the camera could be pulled up and
    handled. I randomly picked up 13 cameras and 12 of them were plugged
    and operable so the menu could be accessed and the zoom operated. The
    one exception was a $99 Nikon Coolpix S01 that's the tiniest camera
    I've ever seen since the Minox era.

    There may have been more than 43 since there were some end-cap
    displays in other places, but they may have been duplicate models.

    There was a separate area for DSLRs with 6 Nikons and 5 Canons; all
    connected and fully operable. There was another area with 4 Samsung
    NX cameras that were plugged-in and operable.

    There were two sales clerks in the area. One was with a customer, and
    one was doing something in adjusting stock below the display. No
    clerk approached me, but I did ask the one a question and he was
    sufficiently informed and attentive.

    I randomly selected two cameras for price comparison: a Canon SX50
    and a Nikon D5200. I compared Best Buy's prices with B&H online and
    with a phone call to my local camera store.

    Canon SX50 at Best Buy was $399 with 6-month no interest financing on
    a Best Buy card. B&H shows the camera at $369 and free "regular"
    shipping. Colonial Photo in Orlando wants $429. Colonial's never been
    that aggressive in the point-and-shoot and compact camera area as I've
    pointed out before.

    The Nikon, with an 18/55 lens, was $799 at Best Buy, $796.95 with
    free shipping and an SD card from B&H, and at Colonial at $799.00.
    Best Buy and Colonial will add 6% sales tax as required by law, but
    you get today what you buy today.

    All the Best Buy cameras have a bundle available with a spare battery,
    an SD card, and a camera bag. I didn't pay much attention since these
    bundles don't appeal to me. I want to choose my own bag.

    Sales prices and "instant rebates" on Nikon DSLRs are generally set by
    Nikon and not the point-of-sale distributor, so I expected the prices
    to be about the same. Same with special pricing on a second lens. I
    don't know what Canon does.

    Is this a meaningful survey?

    Nah. It just reflects what the picture is in Orlando. The Best Buy
    in your area may have only a dozen point-and-shoots on display and
    none of them plugged in. The local camera store may have great prices
    on point-and-shoots.

    This photo was taken with my point and shoot. The guys in the blue
    shirts are sales clerks. This one side of the double-sided display
    for p&s cameras.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/m9hyjw23zz8q2b8/2013-07-02-01.jpg

    This is the DSLR area and shows one of the end-caps that I didn't
    bother checking out.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/vztoqawz8nx51fx/2013-07-02-02.jpg

    This shows the Canon SX50 and the type of information on the label.
    The red lights show the cameras are plugged in. Judging by red
    lights, almost all of the 43 cameras were plugged in.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ohfw1nkeamkgzr/2013-07-02-03.jpg

    Disclaimer: I'm not concerned here about nomenclature. I've lumped
    all non-DSLRs into "point and shoots". I know that offends some
    people.



    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 2, 2013
    #88
  9. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 20:06:37 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
    <> wrote:

    >Tony Cooper <> wrote:
    >[snip good advice]
    >
    >> Make sure the zoom control is smooth and easy for you to use. You
    >> should only be concerned about the *optical* zoom. The *digital* zoom
    >> is practically worthless.

    >
    >In layman's terms: digital zoom cuts away most of the image
    >(around the borders) and then makes the few remaining pixels
    >huge --- you won't get *any* more detail out of it, it just
    >needs more space.
    >
    >You can do the same on your computer: crop the image (cut away
    >all but a small part of the image) and then view it at 400%
    >or 800%. :)
    >
    >> I disagree with your preference about AA batteries,

    >
    >There's AA batteries, AA batteries and AA batteries and AA
    >batteries and AA batteries ... and AA batteries ...


    I understand that. My main point about AAs is that you can buy
    regular AAs just about anywhere and use them in a pinch. That may
    save a special moment or a necessary business shot.

    It's better to carry spare charged batteries, but not everyone does
    that.
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 2, 2013
    #89
  10. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Tony Cooper
    <> wrote:

    > >> I don't recall ever seeing a display camera with a SD card. It's
    > >> kinda pointless because the SD card preserves the image taken and
    > >> would have to be formatted by the clerks after use. I don't think, if
    > >> I ran the store, I'd want images preserved for the next customer to
    > >> see. I wouldn't want some customer taking photographs of small kids
    > >> in the store and leaving them around.
    > >>
    > >> An SD card in a demo camera in a big box store is inviting theft since
    > >> they can be easily palmed. Why anyone would bother is beyond me, but
    > >> people do strange things.

    > >
    > >true but many cameras don't take photos without a card so the user
    > >won't be inadvertently taking photos that aren't saved. some have an
    > >option to disable that ('demo mode'), but how many customers are going
    > >to know where that for each camera?
    > >
    > >if you don't know how to do that, then the camera is rather crippled.
    > >you can see how it fits in your hand and zoom the lens and poke around
    > >in the menus, but you can't take any photos, unless you happen to find
    > >the proper setting, if there is one.

    >
    > I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
    > cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.


    they could, but most wouldn't know to do that.

    > The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    > inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.


    sure they would. sd cards are cheap, especially an older low capacity
    one that only holds a handful of photos. it's not like the customer is
    going on a photo shoot. the store probably has several in a drawer. i
    still have a 32 meg compact flash card.

    or, they can enable demo mode, which the sales staff would know how to
    do, and then no card is needed. this should be the default
    configuration for stores like best buy but it isn't, at least in the
    couple of cameras i tried yesterday.

    > The sales clerk can insert one, or the customer can bring one. My
    > local camera stores will allow you to go outside (a clerk goes with
    > you unless you're known there) and fire off shots on your own SD card.
    > You can't do any of that if you're buying online.


    yep, that's one advantage of a store.

    is it worth a couple hundred bucks difference? not to me.
    nospam, Jul 2, 2013
    #90
  11. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 16:12:56 -0400, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> >> I don't recall ever seeing a display camera with a SD card. It's
    >> >> kinda pointless because the SD card preserves the image taken and
    >> >> would have to be formatted by the clerks after use. I don't think, if
    >> >> I ran the store, I'd want images preserved for the next customer to
    >> >> see. I wouldn't want some customer taking photographs of small kids
    >> >> in the store and leaving them around.
    >> >>
    >> >> An SD card in a demo camera in a big box store is inviting theft since
    >> >> they can be easily palmed. Why anyone would bother is beyond me, but
    >> >> people do strange things.
    >> >
    >> >true but many cameras don't take photos without a card so the user
    >> >won't be inadvertently taking photos that aren't saved. some have an
    >> >option to disable that ('demo mode'), but how many customers are going
    >> >to know where that for each camera?
    >> >
    >> >if you don't know how to do that, then the camera is rather crippled.
    >> >you can see how it fits in your hand and zoom the lens and poke around
    >> >in the menus, but you can't take any photos, unless you happen to find
    >> >the proper setting, if there is one.

    >>
    >> I'm not sure what your objection is here. In a big box store, the
    >> cameras do not have an SD card in them. The user can bring their own.

    >
    >they could, but most wouldn't know to do that.
    >
    >> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    >> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.

    >
    >sure they would.


    Could or would? It is done? I haven't ever seen it done. Is it a
    practice in some store you frequent?

    If I was the store owner, I wouldn't allow it. I don't want some guy
    coming into the store and taking photos of some little kids in the
    store and leaving them for others to view. Or, taking Anthony Weiner
    shots of themselves and leaving it in the camera.

    >sd cards are cheap, especially an older low capacity
    >one that only holds a handful of photos. it's not like the customer is
    >going on a photo shoot. the store probably has several in a drawer. i
    >still have a 32 meg compact flash card.
    >
    >or, they can enable demo mode, which the sales staff would know how to
    >do, and then no card is needed. this should be the default
    >configuration for stores like best buy but it isn't, at least in the
    >couple of cameras i tried yesterday.
    >
    >> The sales clerk can insert one, or the customer can bring one. My
    >> local camera stores will allow you to go outside (a clerk goes with
    >> you unless you're known there) and fire off shots on your own SD card.
    >> You can't do any of that if you're buying online.

    >
    >yep, that's one advantage of a store.
    >
    >is it worth a couple hundred bucks difference? not to me.


    What camera is going to sell for $X from one store or site, but $X
    plus $200 at another store or site? Or $x plus $100? Not counting
    the accessories that some online merchants bully the buyer into
    taking.

    The only time that I can think of that this would happen is if Nikon,
    or whomever makes the camera, has a promotion that the store or site
    doesn't honor.

    Can you provide an example of this?

    (That's specifically written as a direct question)

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 2, 2013
    #91
  12. Jake29

    Jake29 Guest

    Tony Cooper wrote:
    > I had to go by Best Buy earlier today in order to pick up something at
    > a craft store for a grandson project, so I did a quick survey. (No
    > airplane was involved)
    > ...
    > The camera department has a long double-sided display of non-DSLR
    > cameras. .
    > ...
    > There was a separate area for DSLRs with 6 Nikons and 5 Canons; all
    > connected and fully operable. There was another area with 4 Samsung
    > NX cameras that were plugged-in and operable.


    That's virtually the same layout, setup, and experience that I had and the
    Best Buy that I went to (in New Jersey).

    There was only one person working in the camera area while i was there and
    he did ask me if I need any help. I said I was just looking and checking
    out what's there and he said to just let him know if I had any questions.
    Jake29, Jul 2, 2013
    #92
  13. Jake29

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Tony Cooper
    <> wrote:

    > >> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    > >> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.

    > >
    > >sure they would.

    >
    > Could or would? It is done? I haven't ever seen it done. Is it a
    > practice in some store you frequent?


    the stores i've been to hand a camera to the customer that works.

    whether there's a card in it or it's in demo mode, i don't know, but
    the camera can take photos, which is the point of trying it out in a
    store.

    i've even seen stores tear open a package of aa batteries to put in a
    camera for a customer.

    > If I was the store owner, I wouldn't allow it. I don't want some guy
    > coming into the store and taking photos of some little kids in the
    > store and leaving them for others to view. Or, taking Anthony Weiner
    > shots of themselves and leaving it in the camera.


    do you really think they're going to take explicit photos in a store,
    and without anyone noticing?

    just what kind of stores do you visit?

    > >> The sales clerk can insert one, or the customer can bring one. My
    > >> local camera stores will allow you to go outside (a clerk goes with
    > >> you unless you're known there) and fire off shots on your own SD card.
    > >> You can't do any of that if you're buying online.

    > >
    > >yep, that's one advantage of a store.
    > >
    > >is it worth a couple hundred bucks difference? not to me.

    >
    > What camera is going to sell for $X from one store or site, but $X
    > plus $200 at another store or site? Or $x plus $100? Not counting
    > the accessories that some online merchants bully the buyer into
    > taking.
    >
    > The only time that I can think of that this would happen is if Nikon,
    > or whomever makes the camera, has a promotion that the store or site
    > doesn't honor.
    >
    > Can you provide an example of this?


    when i bought my slr, it was around $200 less online. i bought online.

    other times there's little to no difference. one of the lenses i bought
    was the same price both online and local, so i bought local. another
    lens i wanted was not available locally, so i had no choice there.
    nospam, Jul 3, 2013
    #93
  14. Jake29

    PeterN Guest

    On 7/2/2013 5:39 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
    > In article <%IwAt.50723$>,
    > |||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk says...
    >>
    >> On 01/07/2013 22:42, nospam wrote:
    >>> In article <>, Tony Cooper
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> An excellent place to check for fit and feel of a p&s and see how easy
    >>>> the menus are to go through. If the person wants information not
    >>>> available at Target, the selection can be reduced to just a couple of
    >>>> cameras and then go to the web reviews or a camera store.
    >>>
    >>> once you know what to look for in the menus, maybe.
    >>>
    >>> that's where a camera store helps, they can explain how to do stuff,
    >>> rather than a customer trying to guess their way through on their own.
    >>>
    >>> that's why i said go to a camera store first and see what's available,
    >>> then go to a big box store and use what you have learned while not
    >>> taking up a salesperson's time.

    >>
    >> That behaviour is *exactly* what kills photographic stores with skilled
    >> staff. If you waste their time and then go to a box shifter to buy it!
    >>
    >> Jessops failed in the UK recently and they were not bad (at least some
    >> of the stores I used were OK). Someone put up a poster by the door in
    >> their last week of trading. It said "Thank you for buying at Amazon".
    >> They would even do a price match deal if you asked them to. A handful of
    >> the more profitable ones have since reopened under new management - time
    >> will tell if they can garner enough sales volume to stay afloat.
    >>
    >> Bricks and mortar stores are doomed if Amazon parasitises all the sales
    >> that the stores would make by undercutting them at every opportunity.
    >> You can see people on their mobiles doing price comparisons all the time
    >> in bricks and mortar stores after wasting sales demo time.
    >>
    >> It is one thing to go in and play with a tethered camera for look and
    >> feel but quite another to tie up experienced sales staff pump and them
    >> for advice when you have no intention of buying kit from them.

    >
    > And it is a third thing to look at the tethered camera then buy the same
    > thing online for a lower price--keep doing that and after a while the
    > box-shifter with the tethered cameras won't be there either.
    >
    > My general rule is that I have to actually see the thing or handle the
    > thing before I buy it I'll buy it from whoever let me see it or handle
    > it. If I already know all I wen known to by a car in anted to know about it I'll buy it from
    > the cheapest source I can find.
    >


    I almost agree. I am not a shopper, and have little patience for
    shopping. When we bought our first house, once we saw one that met all
    of our requirements, I made an offer. It took all of three days. I have
    been known to buy a car in under an hour, with most of the time being
    taken up in negotiations, and paper work. However, if the big box store
    has clerks that ignore me, I will walk right out.


    --
    PeterN
    PeterN, Jul 3, 2013
    #94
  15. Jake29

    PeterN Guest

    On 7/2/2013 12:32 PM, Savageduck wrote:
    > On 2013-07-02 08:46:47 -0700, Sandman <> said:
    >
    >> In article <020720131036512868%>,
    >> nospam <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>>> once you know what to look for in the menus, maybe.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> that's where a camera store helps, they can explain how to do stuff,
    >>>>> rather than a customer trying to guess their way through on their own.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> that's why i said go to a camera store first and see what's available,
    >>>>> then go to a big box store and use what you have learned while not
    >>>>> taking up a salesperson's time.
    >>>>
    >>>> That behaviour is *exactly* what kills photographic stores with skilled
    >>>> staff. If you waste their time and then go to a box shifter to buy it!
    >>>
    >>> nope. what kills stores is not offering added value for the higher
    >>> prices they charge.

    >>
    >> Well, for what its worth - that "skilled staff" is the added value I
    >> miss now that the large super stores have killed off the small players.
    >>
    >> And it's not just camera stores, of course.

    >
    > San Luis Obispo County is down to one dedicated camera store (a Canon
    > only shop) after the March closing of Jim's Campus Camera.
    > <
    > http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2013/02/13/2393102/jims-campus-camera-closing-after.html
    >
    >>

    > In local terms that pretty much leaves the big box stores, online, or a
    > trip to Monterey or San Francisco as my only options. With the good
    > deals and experience I have had with both B&H and Adorama, you can make
    > a good guess as to which way I am leaning.
    >
    > However, there are some speciality bricks & mortar family stores which
    > buck the big box, online trend. I am thinking of local gun shops and
    > gunsmiths, of which we have a fine local example here in Paso Robles,
    > run by father & son team of Art & Norm Bridge
    > < http://www.bridgesportsmen.com/ >
    >
    >


    There is a small bookstore in NYC, located about a block from Barnes &
    Noble. He sells at full prices, and competes only on service. When you
    walk into the store, you are treated as a person, whose business is
    appreciated.
    My local hardware store charges a few bucks more than Home Depot, but I
    walk in, get what I want and am out of there is a few minutes. If
    something needs to be returned, there is no hassle, and no lines. They
    are a family owned and run business, that has been in the same location
    for about fifty years. When Home Depot first opened up, they had great
    service. After they put the small guys out of business, the prices went
    up and the service level disappeared to almost zero. Some small stores
    have formed buying co-ops to compete with the big boys. The results have
    been good in hardware and appliances. In cameras, the efforts were not
    too successful.

    --
    PeterN
    PeterN, Jul 3, 2013
    #95
  16. Jake29

    PeterN Guest

    On 7/2/2013 11:58 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >>
    >> On 7/2/2013 3:26 AM, David Taylor wrote:
    >>> On 01/07/2013 22:42, nospam wrote:
    >>> []
    >>>> that's why i said go to a camera store first and see what's available,
    >>>> then go to a big box store and use what you have learned while not
    >>>> taking up a salesperson's time.
    >>>
    >>> If you've taken up the camera store's time, my feeling is that you
    >>> should buy from them, or at least give them a chance to price-match.
    >>> Otherwise, next time you want to browse at the camera store you may find
    >>> it has gone out of business (like most here in Edinburgh have).

    >>
    >> What some don't realize is that the small camera store is part of the
    >> community. The good ones give you service, so you may expect to pay a
    >> little more.
    >> Similarly, the owners of the small businesses, and not just nameless
    >> people. I try to do as much business as possible with them. A few months
    >> ago a clumsy idiot (me) broke a lighting fixture. My wife used it as an
    >> excuse to change several of them. We went to a local store, she sketched
    >> what she wanted, and two weeks later the fixtures were ready. That just
    >> doesn't happen in the Home Depots.

    >
    > Really depends on need though. There's a local hardware store here that
    > has just about anything one can ask of a hardware store. I give them my
    > business whenever I can, but when the toilet's flooding the basement on
    > a Sunday, Home Depot gets the buy.
    >


    There are times when necessity intervenes. WE called a local plumber
    because of a flood, he answered, that it was a Sunday and not his sewer
    that was backing up. But, his repair guy was at our house in half an hour.

    --
    PeterN
    PeterN, Jul 3, 2013
    #96
  17. Jake29

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 21:54:25 -0400, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>, Tony Cooper
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> >> The demo models in a camera store would not all have SD cards
    >> >> inserted. The store wouldn't put SD cards in 10 or 15 demo cameras.
    >> >
    >> >sure they would.

    >>
    >> Could or would? It is done? I haven't ever seen it done. Is it a
    >> practice in some store you frequent?

    >
    >the stores i've been to hand a camera to the customer that works.


    Well, sure. That's what happens in my example, too. The battery is
    inserted by the clerk before handing it over to the customer. What
    did you think I meant? That the customer has to jump over the counter
    and find a battery and insert it?

    >whether there's a card in it or it's in demo mode, i don't know, but
    >the camera can take photos, which is the point of trying it out in a
    >store.
    >
    >i've even seen stores tear open a package of aa batteries to put in a
    >camera for a customer.
    >
    >> If I was the store owner, I wouldn't allow it. I don't want some guy
    >> coming into the store and taking photos of some little kids in the
    >> store and leaving them for others to view. Or, taking Anthony Weiner
    >> shots of themselves and leaving it in the camera.

    >
    >do you really think they're going to take explicit photos in a store,
    >and without anyone noticing?


    Oh, yeah. Especially with those rotatable viewfinders, an Anthony
    Weiner shot would be easy to get away with.

    >just what kind of stores do you visit?
    >
    >> >> The sales clerk can insert one, or the customer can bring one. My
    >> >> local camera stores will allow you to go outside (a clerk goes with
    >> >> you unless you're known there) and fire off shots on your own SD card.
    >> >> You can't do any of that if you're buying online.
    >> >
    >> >yep, that's one advantage of a store.
    >> >
    >> >is it worth a couple hundred bucks difference? not to me.

    >>
    >> What camera is going to sell for $X from one store or site, but $X
    >> plus $200 at another store or site? Or $x plus $100? Not counting
    >> the accessories that some online merchants bully the buyer into
    >> taking.
    >>
    >> The only time that I can think of that this would happen is if Nikon,
    >> or whomever makes the camera, has a promotion that the store or site
    >> doesn't honor.
    >>
    >> Can you provide an example of this?

    >
    >when i bought my slr, it was around $200 less online. i bought online.


    What's the example? What brand, and what was the asked-for price at a
    camera store? You surely don't think you've provided an example here,
    do you? You've just made a vague hand-wave of very dubious
    believability. Nikon prices are pretty much the same from all
    reputable dealers not selling gray market. You might get that much
    difference with a high-end gray market camera compared to a Nikon USA
    product. Or a refurbished camera. Only add-ons and non-Nikon
    products used with the camera vary. Dunno about Canon.
    >
    >other times there's little to no difference. one of the lenses i bought
    >was the same price both online and local, so i bought local. another
    >lens i wanted was not available locally, so i had no choice there.

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
    Tony Cooper, Jul 3, 2013
    #97
  18. Jake29

    Sandman Guest

    In article <020720131241241293%>,
    nospam <> wrote:

    > > > people can get a *lot* of information online, probably much more than
    > > > any salesperson could offer.

    > >
    > > Well, people *can*, but they're too lazy to do it. Proper research is
    > > what people could avoid by talking to the local camera shop.

    >
    > depends how much research they do.


    Most people do none. They want a TV/Stereo/camera, they may ask a friend
    but disregard the advice when the superstore has a device that fits the
    superflous critera they have but $500 cheaper than the quality brand the
    friend recommended.

    > searching for an item on amazon and reading the reviews is easy.


    Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
    about a product, less so when happy about a product. You should take
    advice from someone knowledgable that can take YOUR criteria into
    consideration.

    > for cameras, dpreview has *very* thorough reviews.


    Indeed. But reading them amounts to that precious "research" that most
    people don't do. All my friends bought new cameras in the last ~5 years,
    not one of them knows anything about dpreview.com

    > > > plus, they want to make a sale, so they're not going to tell you about
    > > > everything, especially stuff they don't carry.

    > >
    > > That's true for the big super stores, not for the local merchants.
    > > They're happy to order any gear you want or need. They don't have huge
    > > specials on a specific gear that they will nag on you to get because
    > > that's where they get the biggest payoff. They value you as a customer
    > > and know that your loyalty is worth more than 5% margins on cheap gear.

    >
    > some might, but not all.


    Well, more so than the superstores.

    > i've been in stores that will talk down stuff they don't sell.


    Unsuccessful and stupid shop owners exists everywhere. I was in
    reference to the general small scale store.

    > i've been in stores that say incorrect things about a product, either
    > deliberately or because the salesperson is uninformed.


    I bet you get that more in superstores than in small stores. Which is my
    point. In fact, I don't think I've ever gotten knowledgable information
    from any sales person in a superstore, ever.

    > i've also been in stores that say you need xyz, but we don't carry that
    > so go to so and so across town or just order it online.


    At which point, my local camera guy would say that he doesn't have that
    in stock and he'll be happy to order it for me.

    > > My local camera/computer/stereo guys has always bent over backwards to
    > > do proper research, find the best gear for my needs and kept in touch to
    > > see that I'm still happy with the purchase. You just don't get that from
    > > MediaMarkt (our Best Buy when it comes to electronic gear), where
    > > customer loyalty isn't worth as much because they have so many customers.

    >
    > that's unusual.


    Maybe you have more customer-oriented sales people in superstores in the
    states, here they are uninformed morons that have direct orders to sell
    some specific products where the store earns the most money.

    > > There is a place for everything, and I din't mind the competition, but I
    > > think it's sad when customers would rather save $10 than buy from a
    > > small dealer that knows what he's doing, which mans that he have to
    > > close shop.

    >
    > it's not about saving $10. if the difference is $10, i'll buy locally
    > because it's instant gratification and no worries about damage in
    > shipping or if someone has to be home to sign for it or if the box will
    > be left on the front steps in the rain, etc.


    Obviously it won't be $10 on a Nikon D800, but on accessories, memory
    cards, batteries and such.

    > many times, the difference is much more, often $100-200 and sometimes
    > even more. for that, i *will* buy online. that's money that can be
    > spent at a different local store, maybe a restaurant or something, so
    > in the end, the community still benefits, just not the stores with
    > ripoff prices.


    I wasn't in reference to stores with rip-off prices, though. If you were
    only talking about stores with rip-off prices, then I misunderstood you
    from the beginning.


    --
    Sandman[.net]
    Sandman, Jul 3, 2013
    #98
  19. Jake29

    PeterN Guest

    On 7/3/2013 4:09 AM, Sandman wrote:
    > In article <020720131241241293%>,
    > nospam <> wrote:
    >
    >>>> people can get a *lot* of information online, probably much more than
    >>>> any salesperson could offer.
    >>>
    >>> Well, people *can*, but they're too lazy to do it. Proper research is
    >>> what people could avoid by talking to the local camera shop.

    >>
    >> depends how much research they do.

    >
    > Most people do none. They want a TV/Stereo/camera, they may ask a friend
    > but disregard the advice when the superstore has a device that fits the
    > superflous critera they have but $500 cheaper than the quality brand the
    > friend recommended.


    Agreed. If people cared about quality, the Betamax would have triumphed
    over the VHS.


    >
    >> searching for an item on amazon and reading the reviews is easy.

    >
    > Reviews says very little. People generally write reviews when unhappy
    > about a product, less so when happy about a product. You should take
    > advice from someone knowledgable that can take YOUR criteria into
    > consideration.


    True. The problem is finding a sales person, who actually listens. Try
    thie experiment. The next time you go into a restaurant order iced tea,
    with extra lemon. More times than not, you will get your iced tea,
    without the extra lemon.


    >
    >> for cameras, dpreview has *very* thorough reviews.

    >
    > Indeed. But reading them amounts to that precious "research" that most
    > people don't do. All my friends bought new cameras in the last ~5 years,
    > not one of them knows anything about dpreview.com
    >
    >>>> plus, they want to make a sale, so they're not going to tell you about
    >>>> everything, especially stuff they don't carry.
    >>>
    >>> That's true for the big super stores, not for the local merchants.
    >>> They're happy to order any gear you want or need. They don't have huge
    >>> specials on a specific gear that they will nag on you to get because
    >>> that's where they get the biggest payoff. They value you as a customer
    >>> and know that your loyalty is worth more than 5% margins on cheap gear.

    >>
    >> some might, but not all.

    >
    > Well, more so than the superstores.
    >
    >> i've been in stores that will talk down stuff they don't sell.

    >
    > Unsuccessful and stupid shop owners exists everywhere. I was in
    > reference to the general small scale store.
    >


    AS you know I like to deal with small stores. Here is an extreme
    example. I broke a shoelace and went into a small variety store in
    Ottawa to purchase a new pair. The owner said it would take a few
    minutes to find it. After a few minutes I realized the owner was not on
    the sales floor and my wife and I were the only ones there. About twenty
    minutes later the owner showed up with my shoelaces. Turned out he had
    gone to another local store to get them for me.


    >> i've been in stores that say incorrect things about a product, either
    >> deliberately or because the salesperson is uninformed.

    >
    > I bet you get that more in superstores than in small stores. Which is my
    > point. In fact, I don't think I've ever gotten knowledgable information
    > from any sales person in a superstore, ever.


    They don't pay very much, so what do you expect.

    >
    >> i've also been in stores that say you need xyz, but we don't carry that
    >> so go to so and so across town or just order it online.

    >
    > At which point, my local camera guy would say that he doesn't have that
    > in stock and he'll be happy to order it for me.
    >
    >>> My local camera/computer/stereo guys has always bent over backwards to
    >>> do proper research, find the best gear for my needs and kept in touch to
    >>> see that I'm still happy with the purchase. You just don't get that from
    >>> MediaMarkt (our Best Buy when it comes to electronic gear), where
    >>> customer loyalty isn't worth as much because they have so many customers.

    >>
    >> that's unusual.

    >
    > Maybe you have more customer-oriented sales people in superstores in the
    > states, here they are uninformed morons that have direct orders to sell
    > some specific products where the store earns the most money.


    Please to classify him as a US citizen/resident. I strongly suspect he
    is not. He can't spell "color."

    There is only one superstore here where the sales people are customer
    oriented. "Costco." They are very happy working there and the company
    has a policy of making it a pleasant workplace. As an example, twent of
    the employees at a local Costco won about seven million each in the
    lottery. Most of them are still working there.


    >
    >>> There is a place for everything, and I din't mind the competition, but I
    >>> think it's sad when customers would rather save $10 than buy from a
    >>> small dealer that knows what he's doing, which mans that he have to
    >>> close shop.

    >>
    >> it's not about saving $10. if the difference is $10, i'll buy locally
    >> because it's instant gratification and no worries about damage in
    >> shipping or if someone has to be home to sign for it or if the box will
    >> be left on the front steps in the rain, etc.

    >
    > Obviously it won't be $10 on a Nikon D800, but on accessories, memory
    > cards, batteries and such.


    AS that old joke goes, we know what he is, it's just a matter of price.

    >
    >> many times, the difference is much more, often $100-200 and sometimes
    >> even more. for that, i *will* buy online. that's money that can be
    >> spent at a different local store, maybe a restaurant or something, so
    >> in the end, the community still benefits, just not the stores with
    >> ripoff prices.

    >
    > I wasn't in reference to stores with rip-off prices, though. If you were
    > only talking about stores with rip-off prices, then I misunderstood you
    > from the beginning.
    >
    >

    To some, a rip off price is charging for service.

    --
    PeterN
    PeterN, Jul 3, 2013
    #99
  20. Jake29

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 17:41:21 UTC+1, nospam wrote:
    > In article <>,
    >
    > Whisky-dave <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > > i don't mind paying a little more for local service but not a couple

    >
    > > > hundred dollars.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > yes one does wonder why the differnce is so large.

    >
    >
    >
    > b&h buys in *huge* volumes. a small store can't compete with that.


    How about amazon ?
    And if the manufactuer wanted to make more profit perhaps they shouldn't sell so cheaply to the large retailers.
    As I say can you explain why Aple aren;t losing money due to amazon or the big box shifters, knowing that might give some clues to how to run a buisness rather than how to turn a quick profit.
    Whisky-dave, Jul 3, 2013
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Chris

    Buying a digital camera

    Chris, May 11, 2004, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    17
    Views:
    678
    Chris
    May 19, 2004
  2. Richard

    Buying a 3 megapixel digital camera

    Richard, Aug 16, 2003, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    10
    Views:
    512
    Ian S
    Aug 17, 2003
  3. Missie

    buying a new digital camera ?

    Missie, Aug 18, 2003, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    392
    Edric Ta
    Aug 20, 2003
  4. vidhu

    buying a new digital camera

    vidhu, Sep 1, 2003, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    14
    Views:
    532
    Lucas Tam
    Sep 2, 2003
  5. Andy Munnis

    Guidance on a buying a new digital camera

    Andy Munnis, Oct 6, 2003, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    798
    Michael Geary
    Oct 6, 2003
Loading...

Share This Page